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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Accountability
    #2629394 - 05/02/04 10:56 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Traditionally, people have considered themselves to have free will. But in modern psychology, and to some extent sociology, people's behavior is seen as being shaped by one's environment and upbringing. This, to me, begs the question of accountability. Is the alcoholic father who beats his son responsible for that son becoming a criminal? Is the bad teacher who humiliates his or her students in class responsible for any of them becoming failures? To what extent are people accountable for the actions of those whose lives they affect?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleClean
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Re: Accountability [Re: silversoul7]
    #2629408 - 05/02/04 10:59 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

i would say that one can only be at the most, very minimally accountable for another's actions. some influence often occurs but it's ultimately up to the individual to decide how to act, except for maybe in extreme cases of hypnosis/mind control.
it's a very convenient excuse to say "oh well my parents divorced when i was young so that's why..." etc. etc.


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OfflineLux
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Re: Accountability [Re: silversoul7]
    #2629466 - 05/02/04 11:16 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Traditionally, people have considered themselves to have free will. But in modern psychology, and to some extent sociology, people's behavior is seen as being shaped by one's environment and upbringing. This, to me, begs the question of accountability. Is the alcoholic father who beats his son responsible for that son becoming a criminal? Is the bad teacher who humiliates his or her students in class responsible for any of them becoming failures? To what extent are people accountable for the actions of those whose lives they affect?




You are absolutely correct. Throughout our lives people unknowingly(for the most part) instill in us what we generally believe to be our free will. The thing we most associate our being with is actually a foreign element.

Having said this, nothing is anyone's fault but your own. No matter what anyone does, you are still the one who carries out your thoughts and actions. The trouble is that people throughout their lives function from only this one, foreign, instilled aspect of the self and in this self we have no responsibility for ourselves. It is this self that tells us that it is the father's fault that I have become a criminal, or the teacher's fault that I am a failure.

Be a warrior and take responsibility!


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Registered: 10/23/02
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Re: Accountability [Re: Clean]
    #2629496 - 05/02/04 11:25 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

If you recall from when around the time Frog joined our beautiful group :smile: , we discusses this at great lengths.

You have so many outside influences that affect the person... with or without certain instances... given the rather predisposed genetic characteristics of an individuals, you begin the framework for how a human being is.

There are some parts of who you are which is not a matter of accountability... i think thats over stating the matter, you just are who you are.

Take in physical, emotional, mental trauma... these things will effect the perception of people. how the individual reacts to these perceptions and changes in their environment will lead them on to be who they are.

Soemtimes for some people it is not so easy to see " i choose to be this way, because of such and such factors"

Often times these "ways" are so engraned into the nature of the person. Personally i think bad experiences may have such a profound effect on some individuals, they can never get out of the cycle associated with a said tramua or stressful event.

Consider what happens to people who have post traumatic stress syndrome... some of these people cant simply just "choose" to be different. 

Quote:

it's a very convenient excuse to say "oh well my parents divorced when i was young so that's why..." etc. etc. 




Thats a good point to make. People do like excuses for their inability to make things better for themselvs, its a form of deulluding the pain... But i dont think it really sums up the whole scenario.

There are a lot of things you have to take into consideration.

Ive always found it interesting to hear those statistics about kids and their parents.

do you belong to these categories? 
Quote:

http://www.rainbows.org/statistics.html 




again its not everyone... but i find it very overwhelming to dismiss.


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InvisibleClean
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Re: Accountability [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2629605 - 05/02/04 11:50 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

the statistics may be overwhelming, but they only show the path which people often choose. indeed, habits formed by trauma of any kind can be quite hard to break and will effect some people throughout their lives. with the right words though anyone can realize that they alone are responsible for how they feel and act.
it is unfortunate that in our western society opportunities for such inward reflection are few and far between.


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Accountability [Re: Clean]
    #2629640 - 05/02/04 11:58 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

yes it is sad that self reflection is far and few between. If the people within our society mayybe were more how should we say... "open minded", we might not have such a grueling pace on social development, but alas this is not the case.

Dont discount my other points i mentioned, free will only goes as far as determinants which created the person in the first place. Take for instance the memory functioning of a child... memories cannot be recalled at the age of 2 because of their early engrainment inside the brain.. .after growth certain pathways make it difficult to near impossible to access. memory has a key effect on the way people act... This is fact.

If someone were to associate their entire life with bad memories, how do you think that persons life would act. if they ulttimately had no organice (physical) way of transcending their release of certain chemicals in their brain.. is it necessarily their "choice"?

You make a very good point that cant be ignored, but you cant ignore the other side of the issue either.


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InvisibleClean
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Re: Accountability [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2629746 - 05/03/04 12:17 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Zero7a1 said:
Dont discount my other points i mentioned, free will only goes as far as determinants which created the person in the first place. Take for instance the memory functioning of a child... memories cannot be recalled at the age of 2 because of their early engrainment inside the brain.. .after growth certain pathways make it difficult to near impossible to access. memory has a key effect on the way people act... This is fact.

If someone were to associate their entire life with bad memories, how do you think that persons life would act. if they ulttimately had no organice (physical) way of transcending their release of certain chemicals in their brain.. is it necessarily their "choice"?





i see your point and it's a good one.  i think it would be a person's choice, whether conscious or unconscious, to withold themselves from going through an experience or "awakening" to realize that they are in control.

in the case of someone who has known more bad times than good, or vice versa, it may be very difficult for them to change their world view, but it can be done.  i believe we have the ability to overcome the bad things which have happened to us, and to break the thought patterns which stemmed from trauma, no matter how severe.  though the process can be very difficult due to the severity of a "bad" memory, i like to think that it can be done.  as the adage says, "old habits die hard" but it implies that they do indeed die.  :smile:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Accountability [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2629787 - 05/03/04 12:26 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Zero7a1 said:
yes it is sad that self reflection is far and few between. If the people within our society mayybe were more how should we say... "open minded", we might not have such a grueling pace on social development, but alas this is not the case.



You say that as if open-mindedness is not also a trait aquired by one's upbringing.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Accountability [Re: Clean]
    #2629799 - 05/03/04 12:29 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

:smile: . I wouldnt be here if my habbits hadnt have died. Ive experienced many bad things, a lot of which have had to do with my response to the bad things in my life. I find that now im starting to get a handle on these things, breaking these patterns. Its a tremendous drain of energy to fight these things all the time.

To me i see it kind of like this.

You have the people who are so subdued by these problems, they are almost completely unaware, uncaring as to the problems they have. Their are people who are going through the stress of dealing with problems, hence they are in the middle, and then their are those who have made a key concern of theirs to trascend their issues, or who have become very sucessful at combating these problems.

Ive been back and forth... kinind of a traveler so to speak, but i like the more "aware" sense of the issue.


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Anonymous

Re: Accountability [Re: silversoul7]
    #2630080 - 05/03/04 01:33 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

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OfflineLux
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Re: Accountability [Re: ]
    #2630121 - 05/03/04 01:40 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

That was beautiful! Thank you!


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Offlinetrippysmurf
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Re: Accountability [Re: silversoul7]
    #2630708 - 05/03/04 04:40 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

We have free will. That will is heavily influenced by our environment and the relationships of others we meet throughout life. It is also heavily influenced and at times regulated by our own internal chemistry. At times, we do not have free will because our own body physcially prevents us from making such decisions - but as this is not an outside source, I do not think it consitutes the category of the lack of free will. Just filtered free will I guess.


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I like your Christ, but I do not like Christians - they are so unlike Christ. -Gandhi


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OfflineLux
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Re: Accountability [Re: trippysmurf]
    #2630803 - 05/03/04 07:02 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, we do have free will. The trouble is that it's not what most people identify with their own free will.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Accountability [Re: silversoul7]
    #2630830 - 05/03/04 07:52 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Is the alcoholic father who beats his son responsible for that son becoming a criminal?

No. He is, however, responsible for being a bad parent.

Is the bad teacher who humiliates his or her students in class responsible for any of them becoming failures?

Failures of the course he teaches or failures at life?

To what extent are people accountable for the actions of those whose lives they affect?

For the most part, not at all.

pinky


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