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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinechristopera
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28553123 - 11/22/23 06:06 PM (2 months, 4 days ago)

It was a clown show alright, just not in the way you are referencing it.


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Kryptos]
    #28553403 - 11/22/23 11:21 PM (2 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
No, the reason that mutually assured destruction is a reality is the common perception that Russia is an existential threat to the United States.

Commonly held perceptions are rarely pure reflections of reality. They need to be marinated in propaganda first.




Whatever helps you sleep at night. I think the propaganda is that mutually assured destruction isn't a thing.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Near Dylan] * 1
    #28553407 - 11/22/23 11:29 PM (2 months, 3 days ago)

Mutually assured destruction is very real, it's the key discovery that came out of the invention of game theory. As long as mutually assured destruction is real and credible, no one will engage in a nuclear war. It has to be real and credible for that to be the case.

It's a seemingly counterintuitive and bizarre conclusion, but it has actual mathematical and theoretical backing in game theory, which is why MAD is used by the US, Russia, and China. A lot of math stuff is counterintuitive like that.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: nooneman]
    #28553424 - 11/22/23 11:53 PM (2 months, 3 days ago)

Game theory only applies in a moral void with repeated iterations.

Game theory solves the prisoner's dilemma by saying trust your partner...until they don't trust you one round, at which point you never trust them again in future rounds.

Unfortunately, you do not get repeated iterations in a MAD scenario. That's the point of the AD.


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OfflineIce9
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #28553697 - 11/23/23 08:34 AM (2 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
No, the reason that mutually assured destruction is a reality is the common perception that Russia is an existential threat to the United States.

Commonly held perceptions are rarely pure reflections of reality. They need to be marinated in propaganda first.




Whatever helps you sleep at night. I think the propaganda is that mutually assured destruction isn't a thing.





--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Ice9]
    #28553710 - 11/23/23 08:41 AM (2 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Ice9 said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
No, the reason that mutually assured destruction is a reality is the common perception that Russia is an existential threat to the United States.

Commonly held perceptions are rarely pure reflections of reality. They need to be marinated in propaganda first.




Whatever helps you sleep at night. I think the propaganda is that mutually assured destruction isn't a thing.








True.

But we're arguing about whether or not the doomsday machine is a doomsday machine...


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #28553715 - 11/23/23 08:46 AM (2 months, 3 days ago)

Are you saying it’s debatable whether a nuclear exchange would end human civilization? Or


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #28554183 - 11/23/23 04:14 PM (2 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Are you saying it’s debatable whether a nuclear exchange would end human civilization? Or




I'm not the one saying that lmao!

No... I'm arguing that Russia and the United States have something called "mutually assured destruction"... And Kryptos and others... seem to disagree.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #28554193 - 11/23/23 04:20 PM (2 months, 3 days ago)

But why would “the propaganda” suggest it isn’t a thing?

The number one excuse to funding our obscene military budget is that we have to stay powerful otherwise some other country will attack us and take our spot at the top.


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InvisibleLynnch
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #28554209 - 11/23/23 04:30 PM (2 months, 3 days ago)

No, i think we're disagreeing on what exactly 'Existential threat' means. Or the repercussions thereof.


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #28554233 - 11/23/23 04:59 PM (2 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
But why would “the propaganda” suggest it isn’t a thing?




I've been hearing politicians, and people... suggesting that it wouldn't be so bad if a nuclear bomb was used. That it wouldn't potentially be the end of the world. That it's not a wildly stupid idea to consider a hot war with Russia.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #28554234 - 11/23/23 05:06 PM (2 months, 3 days ago)

The problem is. The nuke isn’t going to just hit and they’re going to have time to fire one off back at us.

It’s gonna be like the movie Doctor Strange love.

One country is going to send nukes at all the other countries. Those countries will be able to see the nukes  sent at them, and they will send out nukes to all the other countries. And so on.

The problem is, a lot of of these missiles will still be in the air as they start hitting. So, just because we fired one off then shot one down. Doesn’t mean that all of them are going to be stopped before they hit us.

Russia in particular has been stockpiling nukes for a very long time. The longer they are sat down somewhere. The more and they become unstable. This makes a dirty bomb.
Which is remarkably bad for the environment.
The fallout from one of these old nukes. Would be catastrophic on the world. Not just for the country that got hit.

In a very real sense if one nuke gets launched. The cascading effect that it could cause. Could easily lead to The End of the world in a matter of minutes.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: GenesisCorrupted]
    #28554247 - 11/23/23 05:38 PM (2 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Are you saying it’s debatable whether a nuclear exchange would end human civilization? Or




I'm not the one saying that lmao!

No... I'm arguing that Russia and the United States have something called "mutually assured destruction"... And Kryptos and others... seem to disagree.




I believe your original point was one of existential threat, not MAD.

Quote:

GenesisCorrupted said:
The problem is. The nuke isn’t going to just hit and they’re going to have time to fire one off back at us.

It’s gonna be like the movie Doctor Strange love.

One country is going to send nukes at all the other countries. Those countries will be able to see the nukes  sent at them, and they will send out nukes to all the other countries. And so on.

The problem is, a lot of of these missiles will still be in the air as they start hitting. So, just because we fired one off then shot one down. Doesn’t mean that all of them are going to be stopped before they hit us.

Russia in particular has been stockpiling nukes for a very long time. The longer they are sat down somewhere. The more and they become unstable. This makes a dirty bomb.
Which is remarkably bad for the environment.
The fallout from one of these old nukes. Would be catastrophic on the world. Not just for the country that got hit.

In a very real sense if one nuke gets launched. The cascading effect that it could cause. Could easily lead to The End of the world in a matter of minutes.




On The Beach


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Lynnch] * 1
    #28554264 - 11/23/23 05:58 PM (2 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Lynnch said:
No, i think we're disagreeing on what exactly 'Existential threat' means. Or the repercussions thereof.




I think you're right.

I was simply saying that Russia poses an existential threat, because they have nukes. The way to protect against that is to have our own nukes, so that we have mutually assured destruction.

I think Kryptos means something different by existential threat, though... Like an economic threat, or ideological threat? In which case.. I would agree that Russia is no threat.


Edited by Bigbadwooof (11/23/23 06:00 PM)


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #28554279 - 11/23/23 06:15 PM (2 months, 3 days ago)

No, I mean an existential threat is a real threat. MAD theory effectively nullifies nukes as an existential threat. If not for MAD, then they would remain an existential threat.


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OfflineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #28554284 - 11/23/23 06:17 PM (2 months, 3 days ago)

If everyone has them, no one can use them.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] * 2
    #28554299 - 11/23/23 06:30 PM (2 months, 3 days ago)

I have always felt that nuclear options would come from a rogue actor than any of the big nations....it kinda throws off the whole MAD theory. When you think the tech is from the 30s, like close to a hundred years old and someone hasn't gotten their hands on it yet....yikes.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] * 1
    #28554302 - 11/23/23 06:35 PM (2 months, 3 days ago)

I'm sure there are scenarios wherein one or more parties use smallish nukes without triggering the end of humanity.


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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #28554355 - 11/23/23 07:36 PM (2 months, 3 days ago)

im surprised it hasnt happened already:uhoh:


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: mushboy]
    #28554363 - 11/23/23 07:45 PM (2 months, 3 days ago)



--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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