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OfflineMetoo
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26923082 - 09/07/20 03:24 PM (2 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Metoo said:
Sorry for breaking my own rule:

Do you believe that 1930s Germans really thought they were superior racially?



Probably, but it wasn't based on them being good at one particular game their country liked to play.




Similar with the Russians under the Soviets. They were fed propaganda that communism is a system far superior to capitalism and will produce a better, fairer society where people will naturally blossom. They will be happy, go to work for common good not for personal greed, love their leaders and die for their country if called. One proof that this was really so was that in a game which builds on study, discipline, strategy and mental resilience Russians owned the rest of the the World.

So it's not  that Russians thought they were eugenically smarter than other people because they played better chess but they played better chess because their political system created a perfect society which made it possible. Actually glorifying personal achievements was politically risky because it was the communist party and comrade Stalin who deserved the credit.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Metoo]
    #26923188 - 09/07/20 04:26 PM (2 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Metoo said:
Similar with the Russians under the Soviets. They were fed propaganda that communism is a system far superior to capitalism and will produce a better, fairer society where people will naturally blossom. They will be happy, go to work for common good not for personal greed, love their leaders and die for their country if called.



Actually, they were fed propaganda by Voice of America that capitalism was better.  Many Russians now want a return to communism, where they didn't have to worry as much about homelessness, unemployment, etc. and communism is currently a threat to Putin (a communist candidate took 2nd place in the last elections).

Quote:

Metoo said:
Actually glorifying personal achievements was politically risky because it was the communist party and comrade Stalin who deserved the credit.



They didn't have to give 'comrade Stalin' credit for their chess victories, though their system did make it a lot easier for highly gifted people to play chess, because the game was highly subsidized by the Soviet government.

You sound like someone who just graduated from an American propaganda school.  :smirk:


--------------------
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OfflineMetoo
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Metoo]
    #26923197 - 09/07/20 04:30 PM (2 months, 24 days ago)

@Falcon: I understand that you have a soft spot for political systems championing social justice values and, reading their wonderful, humanistic manifestos it is hard not to. What I am telling you based on the immersion in this utopia in my childhood is that the Soviet bloc reality was far removed from the propaganda posters. Critical minds like yours suffered to the point of madness being fed this ideological nonsense and not being able to dispute it.

If the project is to put together a better social system where people can realise their potential I believe that the Soviet experiment shows what not to do. My best current idea would be to keep the free market and personal property but maybe something along the lines of UBI would allow those who are so inclined to pursue non productive endeavours without the bludger stigma. I would not come near any form of equality of outcome or social engineering - best leave people alone to chart their way through life. My 5 kopieyki worth of ideas anyway.

EDIT this is not in response to your post above - more to follow :-)


Edited by Metoo (09/07/20 07:21 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Metoo]
    #26923249 - 09/07/20 04:58 PM (2 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Metoo said:
@Falcon: I understand that you have a soft spot for political systems championing social justice values and, reading their wonderful, humanistic manifestos it is hard not to.



No, I read the same propaganda you did growing up in the US.  Where I got a 'soft spot' (your words) is from talking to people who actually grew up in the Soviet Union.  I have a huge number of friends from Russia who let me know what life there was actually like there.  Not ideal, but also not at all like the propaganda we've been taught.  And I've visited Russia several times and even Crimea to learn more about modern day Russia.

Quote:

Metoo said:
What I am telling you based on the immersion in this utopia in my childhood is that the Soviet bloc reality was far removed from the propaganda posters. Critical minds like yours suffered to the point of madness being fed this ideological nonsense and not being able to dispute it.



That's not what my former Russian friends are saying.

Quote:

Metoo said:
If the project is to put together a better social system where people can realise their potential I believe that the Soviet experiment shows what not to do. My best current idea would be to keep the free market and personal property but maybe something along the lines of UBI would allow those who are so inclined to pursue non productive endeavours without the budget stigma. I would not come near any form of equality of outcome or social engineering - best leave people alone to chart their way through life. My 5 kopieyki worth of ideas anyway.

EDIT this is not in response to your post above - more to follow :-)



I've posted this before, but here it is again for the people who missed it:

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I mentioned many times how the Soviets kicked our ass in space (they launched the first ICBM, launched the first satellite, put the first monkey in space, put the first human in orbit, and had the first moon landing (unmanned).  They would have had the first man on the moon if not for the disaster of their N1 rocket.  Yet US propaganda claimed US technology better as we "won" the "space race".

In medicine, Russia had many firsts, as they discovered stem cells, did the first blood transfusion, the first heart lung transplant...

They developed the first nuclear power plant, the first commercial airliner, invented 3D holography...

Here's a whole lot of other Russian innovations.


Russia (Post Stalin) had virtually no homelessness, no unemployment, no hungry people.  Most everyone was at least lower middle class.

I'm not even claiming Russians were better off than Americans, only that they were better off than laissez-faire capitalist countries.




--------------------
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OfflineMetoo
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26923269 - 09/07/20 05:19 PM (2 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Actually, they were fed propaganda by Voice of America that capitalism was better.  Many Russians now want a return to communism, where they didn't have to worry as much about homelessness, unemployment, etc. and communism is currently a threat to Putin (a communist candidate took 2nd place in the last elections).




This brings back the memories of secretly listening to VoA and radio Free Europe, trying to work out what they say through the noise of the jammers. Absolutely, VoA was a political propaganda tool. In 1970s and 1980s they did not focus so much on capitalism being better but rather on reporting what is happening in Afghanistan, latest news about Sakharov, defecting athletes etc. Russians actually learnt about Chernobyl from Free Europe - don't you think this is quite telling? People will try to engineer utopian social systems - through elections or revolutions - it is nothing new. I feel that my best contibution to this project is to share what I experienced first hand because people in the West generally have no idea how demoralising, disempowering, depressing and downright evil the Soviet system was

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
They didn't have to give 'comrade Stalin' credit for their chess victories, though their system did make it a lot easier for highly gifted people to play chess, because the game was highly subsidized by the Soviet government.





Not crediting Stalin for everything good (just as not blaming the capitalists for everything bad) was only for the very brave through to 1953. Numerous people were sent to Siberia or lost lives for exactly this. The Cult of Personality around Stalin reached the levels of collective insanity. But I am sure you are aware of this?


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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26923285 - 09/07/20 05:41 PM (2 months, 24 days ago)

I can only speak for myself and my own experiences. At this moment Russia is a perfectly livable country but not a communist one so not really a study case here. Modernising Russia was a massive achievement but had a terrible human cost. Developing Siberia for example sounds impressive before one learns about the gulags. All other projects like the Wolga-Don canal, heavy industry in Donbas, the oil in Baku, the cotton fields around the Aral Sea cost numerous lives and caused environmental destruction. Since you mentioned the space race - did you read about Korolev's life before Baykonur? It is an interesting contrast to how von Braun was treated in the US.


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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26923311 - 09/07/20 05:59 PM (2 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I mentioned many times how the Soviets kicked our ass in space (they launched the first ICBM, launched the first satellite, put the first monkey in space, put the first human in orbit, and had the first moon landing (unmanned).  They would have had the first man on the moon if not for the disaster of their N1 rocket.  Yet US propaganda claimed US technology better as we "won" the "space race".

In medicine, Russia had many firsts, as they discovered stem cells, did the first blood transfusion, the first heart lung transplant...

They developed the first nuclear power plant, the first commercial airliner, invented 3D holography...





Not sure about the first airliner and also thought that the Russians sent a dog, Laika, into space - the US favoured monkeys. But this does not change the fact the Soviet achievements were impressive. The same for culture - music, poetry, ballet.


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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Metoo] * 1
    #26923326 - 09/07/20 06:06 PM (2 months, 24 days ago)

I love when falcon tells people who grew up in the Soviet Union what their former lives were really like.

I spent a week in Leningrad in the 80s and aside from early 1990s Serbia, it was the most miserable place I’ve ever been.


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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Metoo]
    #26923343 - 09/07/20 06:20 PM (2 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Metoo said:
Russians actually learnt about Chernobyl from Free Europe - don't you think this is quite telling?



Telling of what?  I learn many things from RT America before the American mainstream media reports it.

Quote:

Metoo said:
Not crediting Stalin for everything good (just as not blaming the capitalists for everything bad) was only for the very brave through to 1953. Numerous people were sent to Siberia or lost lives for exactly this. The Cult of Personality around Stalin reached the levels of collective insanity. But I am sure you are aware of this?



Yes, I'm aware that things were pretty bad under Stalin.  In fact, almost every discussion I get into about the USSR people bring up how bad things were under Stalin.  But he was gone in 1953, long before the famous Bobby Fisher chess tournament.

Quote:

Metoo said:
I can only speak for myself and my own experiences. At this moment Russia is a perfectly livable country but not a communist one so not really a study case here. Modernising Russia was a massive achievement but had a terrible human cost. Developing Siberia for example sounds impressive before one learns about the gulags. All other projects like the Wolga-Don canal, heavy industry in Donbas, the oil in Baku, the cotton fields around the Aral Sea cost numerous lives and caused environmental destruction. Since you mentioned the space race - did you read about Korolev's life before Baykonur? It is an interesting contrast to how von Braun was treated in the US.



All under Stalin, correct?  Life went on in the USSR after Stalin.  :smirk:


--------------------
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: koods]
    #26923345 - 09/07/20 06:21 PM (2 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
I love when falcon tells people who grew up in the Soviet Union what their former lives were really like.



No, I just told you that Russians tell me what their lives were like.  Could you please (pretty please?) make one post without make believing?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (09/07/20 06:31 PM)


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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: koods]
    #26923358 - 09/07/20 06:35 PM (2 months, 24 days ago)

The story of Korolev is interesting and not widely known so please bear with me. Most of the facts come from the book about him which has a good English translation.

So in 1930s Korolev was a young promising aircraft designer helping to build the Russian Airforce. In 1938 he got caught up in a Stalin purge. He was arrested, tried, convicted and sent to hard labour in the Far East - all this with absolutely zero evidence against him. He struggled to survive at the gold mine, lost all his teeth to malnutrition and, according to his own words, was about to give up when the news arrived of his sentence being commuted. He left the camp and tried to make it to Moscow before winter but missed the last ferry across the river before winter. Luckily he found a shed to sleep in and was fed by some local people enough to survive. He served the balance of his sentence working at a design office - a prisoner designing Russian aircraft.

Over time he became the leader of the space program but his identity was kept secret. In the public he was only referred to as Chief Designer and his own daughter was not allowed to tell her school friends that the guy who kept the Soviets ahead of the Americans was actually her father. His identity was not actually revealed until after his death.

The undeniable achievements of the Soviet system were all made possible by the unbelievable suffering of the millions of Korolevs, whose names were never made public.


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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26923395 - 09/07/20 07:00 PM (2 months, 24 days ago)

If a nuclear power station blew up in the US and you had to learn about it from RT because all local media outlets were controlled by the WH and would not mention what is going on for fear of embarrassing the ideologues, would you be concerned that there is something wrong with this country?

Some more first hand details of life in the Soviet bloc in 1960s and 1970s - long after Stalin.

Communism is the best possible political system and whoever claims otherwise - even in the context of academic reasearch or family stories - will be dealt with. Disappearances largely stopped with Stalin's death but in 1960s you and your spouse would lose your jobs, your children would not be admitted to any university, you would be socially ostracised by your friends. In 1970s you would not be allowed your passport, have access to universities, have any professional or public profile, your every move would be shadowed. In 1980 we made a high school play with some political content and we were threatened by a local party official with being sent to a farm for political re-education. Some historic events putting the Soviets in the wrong light were banned from the schoolbooks and off-limits for historians. I learnt about the 1919-1921 Polish-Soviet war from my grandfather who shared it in a wispering voice in case the neighbours listened.


I cannot un-remember it just because your ex-Russian friends like socialism.


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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Metoo]
    #26923401 - 09/07/20 07:06 PM (2 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Metoo said:
The story of Korolev is interesting and not widely known so please bear with me. Most of the facts come from the book about him which has a good English translation.

So in 1930s Korolev was a young promising aircraft designer helping to build the Russian Airforce. In 1938 he got caught up in a Stalin purge. He was arrested, tried, convicted and sent to hard labour in the Far East - all this with absolutely zero evidence against him. He struggled to survive at the gold mine, lost all his teeth to malnutrition and, according to his own words, was about to give up when the news arrived of his sentence being commuted. He left the camp and tried to make it to Moscow before winter but missed the last ferry across the river before winter. Luckily he found a shed to sleep in and was fed by some local people enough to survive. He served the balance of his sentence working at a design office - a prisoner designing Russian aircraft.

Over time he became the leader of the space program but his identity was kept secret. In the public he was only referred to as Chief Designer and his own daughter was not allowed to tell her school friends that the guy who kept the Soviets ahead of the Americans was actually her father. His identity was not actually revealed until after his death.

The undeniable achievements of the Soviet system were all made possible by the unbelievable suffering of the millions of Korolevs, whose names were never made public.



Yes, things definitely sucked under Stalin, who was the leader during his time as a prisoner.

My understanding is that his identity was kept secret to protect him from possible cold war assassination attempts by the United States.  At least that's what Wikipedia says.


--------------------
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Metoo]
    #26923407 - 09/07/20 07:09 PM (2 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Metoo said:
In 1980 we made a high school play with some political content and we were threatened by a local party official with being sent to a farm for political re-education. Some historic events putting the Soviets in the wrong light were banned from the schoolbooks and off-limits for historians. I learnt about the 1919-1921 Polish-Soviet war from my grandfather who shared it in a wispering voice in case the neighbours listened.


I cannot un-remember it just because your ex-Russian friends like socialism.



Who asked you to un-remember it?  :confused:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26923415 - 09/07/20 07:17 PM (2 months, 24 days ago)

The 1st of May parades were a beauty. With empty shelves in the shops, there were always chiller vans parked in the side streets seeling sausages, to make people look happy on camera. In 1980 (I think) a bunch of university students in my home town were forced to take part and they all agreed to look down on their shoes as they walked in front of the stand with the party officials. This became a big deal - communists were supposed to look cheerful - and an investigation was launched. I do not remember what hapened to these guys, they were a few years up.

I could go on like this - all factual, as best my memory serves me. Compliant people were largely left alone in 1970s but critical thinkers had a hard life.


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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26923454 - 09/07/20 07:35 PM (2 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
I love when falcon tells people who grew up in the Soviet Union what their former lives were really like.



No, I just told you that Russians tell me what their lives were like.  Could you please (pretty please?) make one post without make believing?



Seeing as youre arguing with metoo, and metoo says they are from, and grew up in,
soviet era russia, I'd say koods' statement is relatively accurate.


--------------------
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And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.




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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Metoo]
    #26923474 - 09/07/20 07:48 PM (2 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Metoo said:
The 1st of May parades were a beauty. With empty shelves in the shops, there were always chiller vans parked in the side streets seeling sausages, to make people look happy on camera. In 1980 (I think) a bunch of university students in my home town were forced to take part and they all agreed to look down on their shoes as they walked in front of the stand with the party officials. This became a big deal - communists were supposed to look cheerful - and an investigation was launched. I do not remember what hapened to these guys, they were a few years up.

I could go on like this - all factual, as best my memory serves me. Compliant people were largely left alone in 1970s but critical thinkers had a hard life.



I have no idea where you're going right now as I'm not disputing anything you're currently saying.  I disputed your statement that "Soviets used chess as a propaganda tool to prove their population is smarter than the decadent West."

Did I say communist life was ideal somewhere?  I remember saying my Russian friends told me the system was "not ideal" and "things definitely sucked under Stalin".


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26923478 - 09/07/20 07:51 PM (2 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Seeing as youre arguing with metoo, and metoo says they are from, and grew up in, soviet era russia, I'd say koods' statement is relatively accurate.



Metoo, did you say you grew up in Soviet era Russia?  I only remember you saying "Eastern Europe", so I'm not sure what country you were in and when, but I assumed (wrongly?) it wasn't Russia.

And even if it was, I haven't disputed a single thing Metoo is saying about his Soviet life.  You and koods are make believing again.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26923488 - 09/07/20 07:55 PM (2 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I have no idea where you're going right now as I'm not disputing anything you're currently saying.  I disputed your statement that "Soviets used chess as a propaganda tool to prove their population is smarter than the decadent West."





Should not be hard to comprehend. In the follow-up exchanges you agreed that things were bad under Stalin so, to prove my point, I am producing examples of the shocking by Western standards goings-on well after Stalin died.

EDIT: you have all the personal circumstances I feel comfortable disclosing. Everything I wrote above is my first hand experience from living in a Soviet bloc country.


Edited by Metoo (09/07/20 08:02 PM)


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Re: Joe Biden? Really? [Re: Metoo]
    #26923516 - 09/07/20 08:10 PM (2 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Metoo said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I have no idea where you're going right now as I'm not disputing anything you're currently saying.



Should not be hard to comprehend. In the follow-up exchanges you agreed that things were bad under Stalin so, to prove my point, I am producing examples of the shocking by Western standards goings-on well after Stalin died.



I wouldn't call your examples "shocking" at all compared to the things that happened under Stalin.  :shrug:

Quote:

Metoo said:
EDIT: you have all the personal circumstances I feel comfortable disclosing. Everything I wrote above is my first hand experience from living in a Soviet bloc country.



"Soviet bloc country" is not necessarily Russia Nate.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (09/07/20 08:16 PM)


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