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Offlinekoods
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Saudi Arabia and MBS
    #26230959 - 10/05/19 03:28 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Frontline did a two hour report on political repression and retribution under Mohammed Bin Salman. Worth the time.



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Saudi Arabia and MBS [Re: koods]
    #26232862 - 10/06/19 02:39 AM (4 years, 5 months ago)

That was a good follow up to a previous Martin Smith documentary called "Bitter Rivals: Iran and Saudi Arabia".  That documentary gave a very interesting overview of Iran and Saudi Arabia.  Iran and it's allies (mostly Shi'i) basically consider themselves free from Western rule and enemies of the West, while Saudi Arabia and its allies (mostly Sunni) are considered Western partner states (Iran would say subordinates to the West).

Of course, as many people know, Saudi Arabia is one of the more religious extremist countries in the world, with very few rights for it's people.  When the House of Saud tried to modernize the country in the late 1970's, religious extremists revolted and staged the 1979 Grand Mosque seizure, leading to the deaths of hundreds of people over several weeks.  Following that attack, the Saudi King decided that instead of reforms, he would implement stricter enforcement of Shariah law, gave religious conservatives more power, and allowed more authority for religious police.



That was in the previous documentary.



This documentary starts when Mohammed bin Salman (MBS) took over Saudi Arabia in 2017.  MBS was also determined to try and modernize Saudi Arabia, let women drive, make music legal, encourage sporting events, and bring other Western reforms to the country.  Of course, in a country so full of religious fanatics, this would have been nearly impossible if not for cracking down on opposition.  He silenced not only religious fanatics, but also people who opposed the fact that he was silencing religious fanatics (such as Jamal Khashoggi who was one of MBS's most outspoken critics and was ultimately murdered).

MBS also rounded up many of the country's billionaires, put them in a Ritz Carlton hotel, and demanded they pay back money that was stolen from the Saudi people.  The media called this act "Putin-like", but my Russian friends say they wished Putin had taken stolen wealth back from the oligarchs.

If not for MBS's reforms, Saudi would still be in the stone age.  Hard to say what's better for Saudi Arabia - modernization with a crackdowns on opposition, or remaining in the stone age (where I suspect opposition wasn't dealt with too kindly either).

Since Trump currently supports MBS, this documentary was surprisingly anti MBS and anti Trump.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (10/06/19 11:46 AM)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Saudi Arabia and MBS [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26233926 - 10/06/19 05:14 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Since Trump currently supports MBS, this documentary was surprisingly anti MBS and anti Trump.



But watch from 1:11:15 to 1:13:00.

You'll see that he also appeared with Oprah, Bill Gates, Tim Cook, Sergey Brin, Sundar Pichai, Jeff Bezos, and Thomas Friedman, who all supported him opening up his country to American businesses.

And then he even said that Israelis should have a right to their own land, and that women are equal to men.  That's unheard of from Saudi Arabia.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlinekoods
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Re: Saudi Arabia and MBS [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26233992 - 10/06/19 06:11 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

How am I not surprised you once again make excuses an authoritarian who uses his power to crack down on political opponents, including chopping them up and flushing them down the drain

But hey he worked for fake news right




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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (10/06/19 06:13 PM)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Saudi Arabia and MBS [Re: koods]
    #26234135 - 10/06/19 07:49 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
How am I not surprised you once again make excuses an authoritarian who uses his power to crack down on political opponents, including chopping them up and flushing them down the drain



Do you have any idea what Saudi Arabia was like before?  Do you think his predecessor in Saudi Arabia was less authoritarian?

By the way, I'm not defending the murder of Khashoggi.  That's make believe that only you are capable of.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Saudi Arabia and MBS [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26234193 - 10/06/19 08:19 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

I would say that MBS is a step up from previous SA administrations. Baby step.

Of course, I also suspect he is more corrupt.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Saudi Arabia and MBS [Re: Kryptos]
    #26234204 - 10/06/19 08:29 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Let's see:

1.  Giving women the right to drive and saying they are equal to men
2.  Allowing music
3.  Opening movie theaters
4.  Authorizing sporting events
5.  Recognizing Israel's right to exist
6.  Opening his country up to a flood of Western products

Baby steps you say???  I don't think you quite understand where Saudi Arabia was before.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlinekoods
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Re: Saudi Arabia and MBS [Re: Kryptos]
    #26234205 - 10/06/19 08:29 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

I really hate the leaders who use reform just as the means to consolidate more and more power. MBS. Putin. Chavez. All the same type of horrible sociopaths.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Saudi Arabia and MBS [Re: koods]
    #26234208 - 10/06/19 08:31 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
I really hate the leaders who use reform just as the means to consolidate more and more power. MBS. Putin. Chavez. All the same type of horrible sociopaths.



Again, you think Saudi Arabia wasn't a dictatorship before?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Saudi Arabia and MBS [Re: Kryptos]
    #26234211 - 10/06/19 08:32 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

This is one of the strangest debates I've ever been in.

Saudi Arabia is implementing MAJOR reforms, but some people are pissed because they're not yet like the US.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlinekoods
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Re: Saudi Arabia and MBS [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26234224 - 10/06/19 08:41 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

I’m sure it will work out great. Another charismatic reformer of a Petrostate. How’d that work out for Venezuela. Are you really that naive?

“Yeah he’s a bit tough on the Jews, but have you seen the new highway?”


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (10/06/19 08:44 PM)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Saudi Arabia and MBS [Re: koods] * 1
    #26234397 - 10/06/19 10:52 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
I’m sure it will work out great.



I have no idea how it will work out.  I'm just trying to understand why you're against progress in Saudi Arabia.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Saudi Arabia and MBS [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26235612 - 10/07/19 02:04 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

The reason I say baby steps is because I do not yet see the clear payout to MBS. Due to his many other actions, I have a hard time believing these reforms have a humanitarian root.

I suspect it is a few populist giveaways to cement his claim to the throne, as well as a smokescreen for his more...vicious dealings.

He has also cracked down on the same people that he has given rights to, such as arresting the leaders of the women's right to drive and anti-male guardianship movements.

Seems to me like a "the lord giveth and the lord taketh away" type scenario.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Saudi Arabia and MBS [Re: Kryptos]
    #26235769 - 10/07/19 03:00 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
The reason I say baby steps is because I do not yet see the clear payout to MBS. Due to his many other actions, I have a hard time believing these reforms have a humanitarian root.



What "many other actions" are you referring to that weren't part of Saudi Arabian culture before?  You and koods seem to think Saudi Arabia was a benevolent democracy before MBS.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I suspect it is a few populist giveaways to cement his claim to the throne, as well as a smokescreen for his more...vicious dealings.



Do you think they have elections in Saudi Arabia or something?  In Saudi Arabia, the King chooses his successor, and that cements his claim to the throne.

I'm still confused why we're being critical of Saudi Arabia just because they're not like the United States overnight.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
He has also cracked down on the same people that he has given rights to, such as arresting the leaders of the women's right to drive and anti-male guardianship movements.



Do you know why she's in jail?  (hint - it's not for advocating the right to drive).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Saudi Arabia and MBS [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26235826 - 10/07/19 03:23 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
The reason I say baby steps is because I do not yet see the clear payout to MBS. Due to his many other actions, I have a hard time believing these reforms have a humanitarian root.



What "many other actions" are you referring to that weren't part of Saudi Arabian culture before?  You and koods seem to think Saudi Arabia was a benevolent democracy before MBS.





I think it is disingenuous to discount humanitarian crimes as "Saudis will be Saudis". There are still quite a few political prisoners.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
I suspect it is a few populist giveaways to cement his claim to the throne, as well as a smokescreen for his more...vicious dealings.



Do you think they have elections in Saudi Arabia or something?  In Saudi Arabia, the King chooses his successor, and that cements his claim to the throne.





No, However, I think MBS has a very vested interest in showing the king how good of a ruler he is, to cement his place on the throne. I doubt he wants to end up like his older brother, who he replaced as crown prince. This involves populist measures that bring wealth to the country.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
He has also cracked down on the same people that he has given rights to, such as arresting the leaders of the women's right to drive and anti-male guardianship movements.



Do you know why she's in jail?  (hint - it's not for advocating the right to drive).




Which one? Of the dozens? Because from what I can tell, some of their crimes were as simple as publically saying "maybe we shouldn't put all our eggs in the Oil basket".

Though, it seems that MBS at least heeded that advice, with his reforms. He's definitely looking for other sources of revenue, and something tells me tourism and foreign investment is high on the list.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Saudi Arabia and MBS [Re: Kryptos]
    #26235874 - 10/07/19 03:44 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I think it is disingenuous to discount humanitarian crimes as "Saudis will be Saudis".



I think it is disingenuous to be critical of MBS because Saudis are not yet like the United States.  I think the progress has been amazing compared to what we've seen in Saudi before.  Especially considering last time they tried reform it led to the 1979 Grand Mosque Seizure as I described above

No, that doesn't mean I support humanitarian crimes.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I think MBS has a very vested interest in showing the king how good of a ruler he is, to cement his place on the throne. This involves populist measures that bring wealth to the country.



I think that too.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Do you know why she's in jail?  (hint - it's not for advocating the right to drive).



from what I can tell, some of their crimes were as simple as publically saying "maybe we shouldn't put all our eggs in the Oil basket"



Source, or make believe?  :shrug:

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Though, it seems that MBS at least heeded that advice, with his reforms. He's definitely looking for other sources of revenue, and something tells me tourism and foreign investment is high on the list.



Again, I totally agree.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlinekoods
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Re: Saudi Arabia and MBS [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26245503 - 10/11/19 04:29 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

i think it is disingenuous to be critical of MBS because Saudis are not yet like the United States.



No what is disingenuous is claiming that is why decent people are critical of a leader who crushes dissent with murder and  imprisonment.

Saudi Arabia will never be the United States. It’s THE WORST place on planet earth. It is a disgusting culture and we should have nothing to do with them.

You can’t even criticize trump for sending troops there. You’re a fucking joke.

Edited by koods (10/11/19 04:31 PM)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Saudi Arabia and MBS [Re: koods]
    #26245520 - 10/11/19 04:41 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

i think it is disingenuous to be critical of MBS because Saudis are not yet like the United States.



No what is disingenuous is claiming that is why decent people are critical of a leader who crushes dissent with murder and  imprisonment.



Did this not already exist on a grand scale in Saudi Arabia?  Why are you so critical of reform?

Quote:

koods said:
Saudi Arabia will never be the United States. It’s THE WORST place on planet earth.



That's why I'm saying reform is good.

Quote:

koods said:
You can’t even criticize trump for sending troops there. You’re a fucking joke.



He shouldn't be sending American troops there, for the 3rd time.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlinekoods
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Re: Saudi Arabia and MBS [Re: Kryptos]
    #26245552 - 10/11/19 05:00 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I would say that MBS is a step up from previous SA administrations. Baby step.

Of course, I also suspect he is more corrupt.



That’s what fal likes about him


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Saudi Arabia and MBS [Re: koods]
    #26245563 - 10/11/19 05:06 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

I'M KOODS AND I LIKE TO MAKE BELIEVE!!!

If you have evidence he is MORE corrupt, please share.  :popcorn:


At least Kryptos said he only suspected that he is more corrupt.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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