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OfflineDigitalDuality
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Registered: 04/29/04
Posts: 354
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
The Pictures From Iraq The News Didn't Show You
    #2622383 - 04/30/04 05:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)



Well, I suppose the following link will need some sort of warning attached to it. It is definately not for the squeamish.

I'm not trying to take some anti-war stance with these photographs, you can them for what they are worth and draw your own conclusions. I just thought they were interesting, to say the very least, and that some people would surely be interested in seeing them.

Hopefully this doesn't turn into some huge war debate thread, but knowing the way forums work, I'd almost be shocked if it didn't...

Some of these are a bit gory (for those who don't have a strong stomach) but I felt that these were incredible images, both in how the photographer captured them as they are, and the feeling that I got by looking at them.

I just thought the contrast was extraordinary: An otherwise beautiful landscape with exotic trees/ wildlife, fascinating ancient architecture of the towns in the background, combined with the vivid imagery of human suffering.

There is so much historical significance in that part of the world, so much conflict there for human society. True to the saying, history repeats itself. I hope these kind of images will provoke otherwise dormant thought in those who view them.


http://home.wi.rr.com/davef/iraq.htm


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: The Pictures From Iraq The News Didn't Show You [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #2622502 - 04/30/04 06:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Well, that is what happened, that is what happens in wars. When somebody gets a bomb dropped on them or shot that is what happens. You don't just pop back up like in a cartoon.

This is a little unrelated but around campus these PETA people have been posting all these flyers about milk having pus and blood in it and male baby chickens being killed because they can't have eggs. I am kind of irritated with the people that put that stuff up, but on the other hand it probobly is true. I'm already a vegetarian but its not going to change my mind about meat, but I'm not going to become a vegan because you can't be healthy without animal protein.

What we don't want to admit (even vegetarians) is that our food comes from some pretty nasty processes. People want to pretend that in life everything is nice and clean and that meat doesn't really come from dead animals that have to get killed, and milk and cheese isn't the result of crazy hormone treatments but it is true. This is the way things have always been. Life is brutal and usually not nice and clean.

I supported the war but I'm under no illusion that it is anything other than an ugly mess. It's just that life is one big ugly mess, humans have had to kill to eat and have fought each other since we have been around. The truth is that life is not easy and pretty, people grow old, suffer and die. It is foolish to pretend to live in ideal world where nobody ever gets hurt because violence and suffering are a part of life.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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InvisibleEdame
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Registered: 01/14/03
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Re: The Pictures From Iraq The News Didn't Show You [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #2622503 - 04/30/04 06:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I thought about posting this a few days ago, there was some discussion on Metafilter about them. It appears to me that a soldier took them, as the photographer can be seen wearing a helmet if you look at the shadow. It could also explain how 'at ease' and close-up some of the other soldiers look in the pics.

It [the mefi thread] also included this comment, make of it what you will:

I saw on a photographer's forum that at least one of the photos is stolen from a pro. The 7th one down, with the mother cradling the kids, is by a Dallas Morning News photographer. Last one in the 2nd row at Corbis.
posted by smackfu at 2:17 PM PST on April 28


Some stunning, and tragic pictures regardless of who took them I think.


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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Edited by Edame (04/30/04 06:22 PM)


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Offlineivi
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Re: The Pictures From Iraq The News Didn't Show You [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #2622806 - 04/30/04 07:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I used to like USA when I was a kid. But now I hate that country more and more with with every day... :sad: I don't believe it's just the government...



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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: The Pictures From Iraq The News Didn't Show You [Re: ivi]
    #2622858 - 04/30/04 07:46 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Can you elaborate upon your hate of the USA(non-government)?


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleClean
the lense
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Registered: 05/11/03
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Re: The Pictures From Iraq The News Didn't Show You [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #2622929 - 04/30/04 08:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

over 600 Iraqi civilians were murdered in the assault on Fallujah, and in the media here it's a big deal that we've lost 100 some soldiers this month.  :nonono:


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Offlineivi
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Re: The Pictures From Iraq The News Didn't Show You [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2622950 - 04/30/04 08:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

:drama:

O.k. It's not hatred.
It's more like disaffection.
I dont hate american people.
I'm actually kind of sorry for You.
You are a little funny in a tragic way :sad:

No worrity though. I'm not going to bomb you, wankers. :crazy2: You will well do it yourselves...  :yesnod: :tongue: :lol:

But I really hate Your government!

Show me the gun Divided_Sky... I see only one in this picture.


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Edited by ivi (04/30/04 08:17 PM)


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: The Pictures From Iraq The News Didn't Show You [Re: ivi]
    #2622957 - 04/30/04 08:10 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ivi said:
I used to like USA when I was a kid. But now I hate that country more and more with with every day... :sad: I don't believe it's just the government...





That guy had a gun in his hand. In war if you have a gun you are a combatent and can get killed. It was that man's choice to fight US troops and he got blown up. That is his own fault so stop bitching about how bad the US is because of a gruesome picture.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: The Pictures From Iraq The News Didn't Show You [Re: ivi]
    #2622978 - 04/30/04 08:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ivi said:


Show me the gun Divided_Sky... I see only one in this picture.





I was referring to your other picture.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Offlineivi
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Re: The Pictures From Iraq The News Didn't Show You [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2622986 - 04/30/04 08:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Let's just stop it. I have my opinion, You have Yours and we are not going to prove anything to each other. We both agree that war sucks though...

Peace! :mushroom2::heart::flowers::mushroom2: hehehe


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: The Pictures From Iraq The News Didn't Show You [Re: Clean]
    #2622988 - 04/30/04 08:27 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Clean said:
over 600 Iraqi civilians were murdered in the assault on Fallujah,




That figure is heavily disputed. The Iraqi Health Minister says only 260 were killed, and 80% were insurgents. The fact that the hospital said that almost all of the dead were civilians is a dead giveaway that they are lying. US troops do not target civilians, although some may have been killed it is simply not realistic at all that the US is killing only civilians and not insurgents. According to the Marines about 90% of the dead were armed combatants. Knowing the rules of engagement that figure seems much more reasonable than the Fallujah hosptial figure which was the opposite.

Terrorists know that the US and the West in particular hate civilian casualties so they try to exploit that by making up fictitous numbers of civilian deaths. It's just like the Jenin 'massacre' where the Palestinian Authority claimed 500 civilians were murdered by Israeli troops but the UN investigation showed that only 50 people had been killed and all were Palestinian militants fighting the Israeli troops.

Same here, the terrorists know they can't win militarily but if they start saying that the US is killing civilians then they can use the media to win a political victory.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
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Re: The Pictures From Iraq The News Didn't Show You [Re: ivi]
    #2622996 - 04/30/04 08:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ivi said:

Peace! :mushroom2::heart::flowers::mushroom2: hehehe



Ok. That was very nice of you.  :smile: :mushroom2: :smile: :heart:


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Offlineivi
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Re: The Pictures From Iraq The News Didn't Show You [Re: ivi]
    #2622999 - 04/30/04 08:32 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Just one question. If this was Your dad (the dead man in the photo), wouldn't You consider proceeding to weapons? Not for a second?! Think about it.






War makes only more war!


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: The Pictures From Iraq The News Didn't Show You [Re: ivi]
    #2623020 - 04/30/04 08:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Can you PROVE that guy was killed arbitrarily? Perhaps he dropped his Rocket-Propelled Grenade Launcher 10 yards behind him as he stumbled to his death, etc.

With regards to your question, I would be lying if I told you exactly what I would do if I were put in a situation where my father was killed for no reason by a foreign occupier. I can tell you from a logical standpoint that while I would be completely distraught and would without a doubt lose any faith in the United States, I would know that joining the likes of Moqtada Al-Sadr is not the answer. That is from an American sitting at his computer in suburban Long Island...as I said, I cannot even fathom what the experience would actually be like.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Offlinegrib
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Re: The Pictures From Iraq The News Didn't Show You [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #2623027 - 04/30/04 08:46 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks for posting the link. U.S. news sources will rarely (if ever) show such photos especially if they show dead or wounded children.

Thanks to satellite television we're able to watch news from Russia, France, etc. They do show a more realistic view of war. Unfortunately, while images on photos may be horrible, they only show a fraction of a second of life. Reality is much worse: the smell of burnt or rotting flesh, the constant anguish of pain on the faces of the wounded.... etc., etc., etc... The smell of a dead body is something I will never forget.

I was in Serbia when boy clinton bombed the hell out of civilians to protect UCK (a.k.a., KLA) terrorists. It was terrible. One can't begin to imagine the suffering from mere photos...


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<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


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InvisibleClean
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Re: The Pictures From Iraq The News Didn't Show You [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2623036 - 04/30/04 08:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

good point, but that doesn't change the fact that innocent men, women and children are being murdered by us.

the possibility that the hospital and the Health Minister may be exaggerating the number of civilian deaths should tell you something - they want us out of there. or do you think the hospital and Health Ministry are run by the Terrorists?
i believe it's quite possible that the number of civilian casualties since the invasion of Iraq started last year far outnumbers the ammount of troops the US has lost, but if the "official" numbers can't be trusted then i suppose we'll never really know.

if the troops were gone the almost daily car bombings and IED attacks would be greatly reduced if not stopped all together. you're fooling yourself if you think we can give them their sovereignty through the barrel of a gun.

i heard an Iraqi mechanic (not a terrorist btw) on a radio news program saying that "if the Americans or Brittish were to come to our country in peace, they would be welcomed with open arms. But bring the troops and we will oppose them every time."


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: The Pictures From Iraq The News Didn't Show You [Re: Clean]
    #2623053 - 04/30/04 08:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

You're fooling YOURSELF if you think us pulling out within the hour will not result in total and utter chaos in Iraq with a hundred different factions in an enormous power grab. I didn't support the war in Iraq, but the fact is it's done and we should see it through. You say if the US pulls out the car bombings will decrease. I say they may, but I would ask if you'll trade say an 80% reduction in terrorist activity for an all-out civil war? Think about that.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleClean
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Re: The Pictures From Iraq The News Didn't Show You [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2623097 - 04/30/04 09:06 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

i think the best route now would be a diplomatic one rather than a military one. get UN troops in there for stability, if needed.
i don't think we should just get out and leave them to squabble in our depleted uranium contaminated dust, there needs to be a non violent solution.

and how do you know it would be all out civil war if the troops pulled out? Iraqis are not ignorant savages as major media would have you believe, they are actually quite intelligent people who could work out the specifics of their government on their own or possibly with some international diplomatic assistance. but you know what? that won't happen any time soon, because Iraq is on its way to being America's new base of operations for the Middle East. oh, and there's oil under them there sand dunes. the people who control GWB have been planning this for years and i'm afraid it's only just begun.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: The Pictures From Iraq The News Didn't Show You [Re: Clean]
    #2623196 - 04/30/04 09:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Do you think if US troops would leave today, and UN troops(who as you know would encompass many current coalition members) show up tommorow, that the insurgency would come to a halt? If you think the only reason they are fighting is to get the US out, then you are fooling yourself.

I have NEVER said nor do I think that the Iraqi people are unintelligent, ignorant, savages and am slightly offended you'd believe that of me. There are however a great many forces at work in Iraq besides the rational and intelligent. If a political vacuum were to occur all these different clerics and demagogues, in addition to some other countries in the region no doubt, would jump at the chance to claim the proverbial throne. The logical outcome of this would be more devestation.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleXochitl
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Re: The Pictures From Iraq The News Didn't Show You [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2623857 - 05/01/04 01:10 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

where in the US constitution does it say the federal government is responsible for nation building and maintaining order in foreign nations?


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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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