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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: Heyowana] * 2
    #26297084 - 11/03/19 08:01 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I think you hit on a very important point in mentioning that the growth conditions contribute to the end results.
I wonder if they are a significant or even equally as important contributor to the end result as the genetics?
Forgive me in advance that I ramble-- but I'd like some of your thoughts on this. Nothing original, just wondering if plant genetics are effectively A/B tested against each other if soil/nutes are modified.

I do believe that the growing conditions explain why, if I grow a cactus clone that came from your garden that was amazing for you at 1000g, but in my conditions grown 2 years I get a mild or sub-satisfying result. Even though it should be identical at 1000g if it's genetics alone... but I don't think it is--and until there's an additional focus on replicating conditions more stringently, I fear a lot of good work will stay obscure because it will be difficult to replicate outside of certain types of grow materials.

One of the important elements I've always wanted to see people coordinate in these kinds of A/B testing conditions is the soil mix, fert schedule, and lighting setup.

I'd love to see more of that with people that are working with clones. For example try the same clone in leaf humus soil/pumice/gravel, and then worm castings/pumice/gravel. Add azomite to each in an A/B to see if micro-minerals help or hurt. Humic/fulvic acid w/kelp. Whatever.

Right now everyone does this experimentation on a private basis but there's little evidence of optimization, because we all default to "whatever works for us" and because these are amazingly resilient plants, they'll grow in a gargantuan array of mediums with or without fertilizers or amendments.
But will all those solutions grow their maximum best? Heck no they wouldn't. In fact it explains why we get named clones that are called weak by one person but obliterating by another-- if they are truly literally clones, they should be about the same regardless of the grow conditions so long as they are "adequate" right? Maybe that's not exactly how it works though.

So many people are looking for powerhouse clones of cactus-- but how many of those people try to share or replicate a soil mix, fert/schedule, and lighting setup/conditions that went alongside growing that plant where it was known to be a powerhouse? Few do-- they say it's too hard, but I wonder.

It's pretty rare (in my travels) for people to pay close attention to trying to duplicate growing conditions as well as possible to match the conditions that created a known great result in their region.

I know this because (so far as I've discovered anyway) I tried to learn as much about that as possible ahead of sowing (like everyone else), but aside from general universal propagation info (which is plentiful) there is no strain of purposeful effort to coordinate and hone in on the powerful effect the soil and nutes must also have on a specific type of plant's life.

An analogy may be an F1 racecar-- where the cactus is the car, and the soil is the tires. All tires are round-- but it's far better to use sticky slicks if the known goal is to rocket around dry curves. Having rain tires will still move the car and go fast-- but not as fast, and not as well. Passenger car tires will move the car... but you get the picture...

That principle absolutely comes into play in the end result we're researching too. But cactus community advice today is really stuck at "Just put round tires on the car" and doesn't really seem to talk about anything more specialized as a culture.

I believe testing these details with clones would manifest in more ways than just grow vigor and general hardiness. It always puzzles me that everyone takes such a lackadaisical, generalist attitude to soil in particular, "plant it in whatever, or use CactusDan's mix, or worm castings with pumice and gravel, or just Miracle Grow with sand, whatever".

Sure, they all will generally work-- some of them very well-- but maybe Peru plants from Matucana would be altered positively by adding specific soil components to that plant's soil, like calcium or magnesium... or whatever. Bolivian plants might need something special, too. Australian-bred Scops that are a dozen generations deep might want for their own ideals. (as an aside: How long does it take for a plant to naturalize to a growing area like Australia if it's originally from Equador? Do the Scops that are there in Aus after a hundred years produce seeds that expect Australian conditions, or Bolivian ones?)

How well do we know any of these things as a cactus culture? Maybe it's just fantasy to hope for this kind of knowledge, because as you mentioned, the growth rate of these plants is generally so slow that there is no "fast" A/B testing of anything, even allowing for cloning.

However, while people (including me!) labor over optimal home soil mediums, things could maybe be somewhat more standardized if one is trying to duplicate or define the performance of a known plant.

Especially when doing so with multiple people in different locations. Otherwise, you aren't really A/B testing anything, since the environment could have such a big affect that your Mp9 would seem mediocre to a different grower with different soil/ferts, while the plants you rejected as poor quality might have grown powerfully psychedelic with the soil and ferts of someone elses garden and topped their list.

I may live in a place where I can only get active growth for 6 months a year, but if I were using the same exact soil (as a mental experiment) and the same ferts as you, same watering schedule, and so on for those 6 months would the result be the same strength? And what about one of your rejects... would it still be weak?

Interesting questions at least.

Sorry for the word vomit-- I just think about these things, so maybe others have as well, and (all) your insights on these questions as a group might help us all understand how our shared interests could be advanced by giving some thought to duplicatable environmental conditions when sampling/growing clones-- because it's possible that weak and strong may only be so because of that plant's reaction to the exact soil/fert/light conditions-- which could mean that your Mp9 is strong with "X" conditions, but the weak 'X" could be wildly potent in the US with Miracle Grow and pearlite :pipesmoke:.


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OfflineHeyowana
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: coAsTal] * 1
    #26297176 - 11/03/19 08:41 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Tell you what. I sure do wonder about it. Here's why. It may not sound too rational but bear with me. If you want to that is.

From my space cadet perspective. First dream I had about an owl that turned into bridgesii bruce. Before it did I was looking at a rocky cactus garden. It had cacti growing with all this coarse river gravel amongst them.

At the time of this dream all my cacti were in pots outside the window of my shed. I woke up and thought its time to start my garden. Anyway weeks or maybe months later I just finished the first section with all the cacti planted.

I'll never forget it. I looked in a SW direction across the garden and shivered. This is the garden that was in my dream. Identical. Exactly the same as I dreamed it. Anyway I had two more owl dreams after I finished the garden. Not prophetic however. The owl turned into Lance in one. Then into peruvianus David in another.

A guy on shaman australis was saying how important it is to add dolomite for mescaline containing cacti to help the biosynthesis of mescaline.

Another was saying clay soil is a must. Their roots are designed to leech water out of clay soils which dry out and turn into rocklike consitancy.

About Mp9 I'm pretty fussy about cactus potency. It would be a real treat to send you a clone if that was possible in the future. If not one day I'll make seeds. Then send you some so you can select the best for your conditions.


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OfflineHeyowana
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: Heyowana]
    #26297349 - 11/03/19 10:34 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I just thought about what I said. I'm a bit of a masochist at heart. I don't expect everyone to be like that. If I had taken Mp9 when I first got into brewing tea it would have been a disaster.

So if you get my drift. It would be a treat for me. Not for you I'm guessing. I've been tripping forever. So it may not be a good idea to send that cactus anywhere without a warning. It needs a skull and crossbones label on it. Poison handle with care!


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OfflineHeyowana
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: Heyowana]
    #26297474 - 11/04/19 01:41 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I was checking out geographical features of Lima and Matucana. Lima 12.05 S Matucana 11.85 S Highest point in Lima about 400m Matucana 2378m. 

So a pachanoi cut from Lima would have been growing in near equatorial conditions. From Matucana because of the altitude it would get quite cold. I remember reading about Bogota at 5 degrees from the equator and around 3000m elevation being called land of the fridge.

Due to that altitude it remains cold. I wonder if the pachanoi's effects would differ growing here at 30 S and 900m. The sun is quite intense here because of the altitude. Nothing like Matucana because of its latitude and elevation.

When I lived at 18 S and 750m elevation the sun would feel like its burning a hole in my head without a hat on. It would be extreme in Matucana.

So maybe I'll never get a 4.8% pachanoi without those conditions. Maybe that's why they are so potent in Matucana. I have read of pachanoi scoring around 1%  from Lima.

Mp9 had like a toxic effect. I felt like an insect that had OD on that natural insecticide called mescaline. I'd lay on my back kicking my legs in the air thinking I was poisoned by the mescaline. Sit up and vomit. Over and over for hours.

I like good bridgesii. Espescially the feeling I get in my stomach from them. I can feel it taking up the mescaline throughout the trip. Each time feeling the psychedelic rush that follows.

Mp9 I was just swamped in a puddle of my own vomit. Not animated but just enduring it waiting for it to put me out of my misery. The colours were so morphed it was hard to make out shapes of things. Way too strong. I'm saying this because I'm not sure I want that kind of experience.

Bridgesii I can still function and see objects like furniture etc. Even on Mp5 which was nothing like Mp9 it was hard to distinguish things because they were too distorted.


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OfflineTripsten
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: Heyowana]
    #26297680 - 11/04/19 06:36 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Ouu interesting point ^^^
Again didn’t wanna quote I’m in my phone it would make everything hard for me lol

But I wouldn’t be surprised is growing conditions affect potency IF there really is something to “stressing” the cactus
Which is where people purposely make little cuts or hurt it in small ways in small intervals to get it to produce more mescaline
I wouldn’t stress a cactus, but if that really does work I would bet that harsher growing conditions could provide higher mescaline out put naturally


As for how strong the cuttings were
How often did you try the over strong one ?
Was it always that strong ?
I feel like I can never pin point classic characteristics of cactus aside from the dreamy wise feeling I don’t get in other psychs
Because every experience is just so varied and different
Each cutting could be so strong it’s like BAM and each cutting can be so weak it’s like DAM 
At least in my experience
But I also enjoy that
I feel like that’s purposeful each time as well and I enjoy going along with it’s randomness
It’s wonderful personality


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: Tripsten]
    #26297918 - 11/04/19 09:04 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Such fascinating conversation-- thank you for all the well-thought replies.

Heyowana I tuned in to the mention on sunlight and altitude. Got me thinking about radiation. Straight from the World Health Organization site regarding UV Radiation and health:



And in case you can't see it in the snip, the thing that catches my eye is this:
  • Altitude—at higher altitudes, a thinner atmosphere filters less UV radiation. With every 1000 metres increase in altitude, UV levels increase by 10% to 12%.


Effect of UV light on plants
Excerpt from link above:
Quote:

There is no question that at its core, UV light is harmful to plants. But in harming plants, it actually causes them to develop protective mechanisms that make them stronger going forward.




In concert with the persistently colder conditions it could have helped fortify the alk levels via those stressors because they are present all the time for those areas.
Some of the better LED grow lights add UV and IR diodes to aid in triggering plant stress response -- and my own grow lights I am using for my seedlings have these as well.

It is quite conspicuous that you have such variation from Lima (standard/common potency) to Matucana (mutant/abnormally high potency)

Could cool temp + UV radiation from altitude be a part of this? Could perhaps lower oxygen at altitude also come into play? What interesting questions. Add to this the soil composition, and it's a very distinct microclimate there.

Another excerpt:
CactiGuide.com
Quote:

UV "stresses" plants and not much else. There is certainly no biological need for it and plants can grow without it. In the case of cacti, stressing the plant can be desirable, it produces heavy and dense spination, skin colouration, and "stunts" plants so that they are flatter. Shorter light wavelengths in general produce plants with shorter internodes, smaller leaves, and more branching. Its not quite that simple though, because the primary controller of internode length is the relative levels of red and far red (and near infra-red) light. This is one of the reasons that incandescent lights and HPS lights can produce severe etiolation. This particular combination of light wavelengths is generally ignored in the whole blue/red debate, partly because it is difficult to see the relevant wavelengths and partly because it is even more difficult to control them.

Anecdotally, some cacti will not flower without high levels of UV. The high altitude Andean dwarf Opuntioids are one group, but potentially other mountain species like Pediocactus won't do well without UV. This is particularly relevant for plants which spend pretty much their entire lives behind a piece of glass or plastic which blocks virtually all the UV. It is obviously difficult to separate the effects of UV from full sun at high altitude from just having extremely high light intensity. As you'll see from reading the lizard pages, its hard to get anything like outdoor UV levels from a light. I don't worry too much since my plants get sun in the summer.




One may easily add UV light of a precise bandwidth by getting UV LED's to add to a lighting mix. Another A/B opportunity for testing with and without.

And to jump to your mention of your Mp9 and 5-- I look at especially powerful specimens as most useful because they allow a good journey with far less plant needed. Knowing such a clone were that powerful, one would start with 300g of plant weight (wet)-- and you are very correct that I do not wish to shatter all concept of my consciousness with any frequency-- despite having tripped literally thousands of times in my life.

There is an explorers mindset that seeks out "special" plants-- and there is our very small and passionate cactus culture that looks up to and for them. It's not about getting "fucked up from the floor up" as much as it is working the human combination lock to see what these plants can release to us from within ourselves.
Finding good plants is a worthy goal, as they help us realize more of our majestic humanity.

I wouldn't want such a powerful plant clone as your Mp9 to stray far from the caring embrace of the true friends of these plants, because the last thing anyone needs is some kid with more bravado than sense taking 1200g of some such cactus and running out into the street somewhere. We'd see too much attention, and potential legal restrictions that would only hurt us all... that's exactly what happened with LSD.

But to use such plants as learning tools is also to understand how and what causes them to be so strong.

Like how the MAOI/flavenoid content in Bridgesii seems to make it so distinct from a Pachanoi, for example-- that is good science, and understanding these things more fully is-- in my view-- good stewardship of the responsibility we have to treat these plants with the respect, gratitude, and sanctity that they deserve.

This is why I always support good work like yours, Heyowana.


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Edited by coAsTal (11/04/19 10:12 AM)


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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: coAsTal] * 2
    #26297958 - 11/04/19 09:28 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Lots of great info being shared here in this thread!

Heyowana you make a good point about cactus breeding being so different from cannabis breeding.  A better comparison would be with fruit tree breeding.  It takes years to grow out an apple or peach seedling.  And many times after the years of waiting it turns out that the tree makes fruit that is just mediocre or sub-par!  Cactus breeding is a similar proposition.

Something that is helpful to consider with the cactus / fruit tree comparison is the fact that as fruit trees age and mature the quality of the fruit improves.  A healthy 40 year old apple tree will produce apples that are sweeter and richer in taste than a 4 year old apple tree of the same variety.  Likewise as a Trichocereus grows larger and more mature the flesh becomes richer in alkaloids.  A big, strong, well established tree just has more resourses available to throw at the production of sugars and flavor molecules.  And likewise a big old grandfather cactus has more resources available to throw at alkakoid production.

Part of the problem with gauging potency in these plants is that when tiny cacti are cut up and bioassayed or extracted it is not always a fair representation of that plant's full potential as a mature specimen.  An Ogun cutting taken from the old mother plant in South America is sure to be stronger than an Ogun cutting taken from a small container grown plant.

So there are many factors that contribute to potency in these plants.

My philosophy has been to track down cacti that I know are good and then grow them as big and strong as possible.  Really it is a lifelong endeavor, and one that I hope continues on after I am gone.


Edited by Grey Fox (11/04/19 11:24 AM)


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Invisiblesacramentum
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: Grey Fox]
    #26298645 - 11/04/19 02:42 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Lots of good points brought up.
Heyowana - My Ogun is very short spined, such that I could see it being basically completely spineless when it fattens up. The next seed I'm going to sow is going to be more landrace pachanoi from peru. I think I'll definitely find some keepers in the crosses though, especially the Lima and Huarazensis crosses.


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OfflineHeyowana
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: sacramentum] * 2
    #26298714 - 11/04/19 03:23 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Far out. Thanks everyone for contributing so much good, useful information. You have inspired me to continue on with the Mp testing project. I have plenty big enough now. Will take them all at 1.25kg for better or worse.

The bridgesii can keep growing. Two are flowering. So left alone there may be more flowering next season.

My tricho rejects so far have all lacked that cactus spirit. That force that takes over and shows me the lesson to assimilate for each trip. It has surprised me that most of the Mp I have tried have this force or power in abundance. Like good bridgesii.

It was interesting about that story quoted from The Nook. Where bridgesii cuttings were left in the dark for months. Mescaline concentration going from 2% to 4% afterwards. From memory the clones in the Ogunbodede testing 2010 were left in the post for months. I seem to remember keeper trout saying that some even went off and were rejected.

I wonder if all cuttings would respond to that kind of stress regime? I don't intend to find out. It would be interesting in the future though. I have two reject Mp so far. Mp6&7. I could try it with them when they are larger and taking up more space.

As Grey Fox put it so well. An older plant would have more mescaline so Mp6&7 may end up okay as entheogens after all.

I appreciate all the information you guys have contributed. Just to say it again because I mean it. Keep it up please!!!!


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OfflineHeyowana
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: sacramentum]
    #26298903 - 11/04/19 04:46 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sacramentum said:
Lots of good points brought up.
Heyowana - My Ogun is very short spined, such that I could see it being basically completely spineless when it fattens up. The next seed I'm going to sow is going to be more landrace pachanoi from peru. I think I'll definitely find some keepers in the crosses though, especially the Lima and Huarazensis crosses.




I read a couple of threads about Huarazensis trichs on shaman australis forums. What makes them that special in your opinion? I dont know anything about them. Just seen a few photos and can't remember much else.


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OfflineHeyowana
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: Heyowana]
    #26298935 - 11/04/19 04:57 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Huaraz 3052 m. Less than 10 degrees S. Snow capped peaks. Wow the sunlight there would be so intense. Equatorial zone but elevated. Read its an old KK selection from a wild population. Hey keep us updated how they go. Very interesting.


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: sacramentum]
    #26298949 - 11/04/19 05:02 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Hehe, I've got Huarazensis x Ecuadorian that's a couple of weeks into the seedling stage :smile:

Great minds think alike?


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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: coAsTal]
    #26299364 - 11/04/19 07:52 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Also huarazensis being the mother plant in the cross would help as well. Consideration would have been given to looks and maybe potency. A straight huarazensis from a KK seedline could be a bit of an unknown.

Dont know about Karel Knize? selections from Huaraz. Like to find out though. I was very unhappy with KK242. Might be from Matucana but looked cuzcoensis. Yet others have ones from that seedline that look pachanoi.

What do you know about the Ecuadorian pollen donor? Yowie is supposed to look Ecuadorian they say. Its a fat notchy looking pachanoi for sure. Funny the plant next to it is going to become Mp11. Its also fat and notchy looking.

Its got that classic I'm a potent pachanoi look to it. Might be wrong. One of the weak Mp was short spined and fat. Only one way to find out. Soon.


Edited by Heyowana (11/04/19 07:55 PM)


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: Heyowana]
    #26299583 - 11/04/19 09:39 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, the place where I got the seed is offline for maintenance at the moment so I can't show you a pic of either the mother or father, but my memory tells me that the Ecua. Pach father did have that dimpled notch look to it.

Maybe sacramentum has pics of his parent plants saved and could help-- though I don't know if we got them from the same place...


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OfflineHeyowana
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: coAsTal]
    #26299763 - 11/05/19 12:37 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for clearing that up via PM. Much appreciated. Sounds like you'll get some good ones in there.

I get mixed up with all the names. Like huanucoensis x bridgesii. Probably SS02. Bet if I had one the other way around with SS02 as the mother it would be a keeper. Anyway its a prolific grower and pups like crazy.

Last time I tried it a bit over1500g it was reasonable. Like a watered down bridgesii in effect. Tried peruvianus David after that. Strong body effect at 1500g but not that psychedelic. A very pretty cactus. Frosty pale blue with fairly short spines for a peruvianus.

After that tried the first Mp at a similar weight. Mp stayed they were rejected. Mp much stronger. I kind of miss David's presence in my garden as it's such a strikingly beautiful cactus.


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OfflineHeyowana
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: Heyowana]
    #26299861 - 11/05/19 03:36 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Mp11 is a fat little cactus. Looked about three foot. Cut the top 8" off. Then took 1204g under that. Its exactly 4" across under the top section.

So it will take a while to brew. Last month of spring here. Wouldn't know it cause its freezing again. Well not really but its cold.

Might be ready by Sunday. That would be good. Last Sunday's peyote trip was pleasant but weak. Maybe things will be different this coming one....


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: sacramentum]
    #26300606 - 11/05/19 12:21 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sacramentum said:
Quote:

Heyowana said:
How are your plants going? Mine are raging at the moment.



They've taken off since I started repotting them. Really happy with these seedlings so far.

Here is the vendor's photo of the matucana pachanoi seedlings. Sadly, these seeds have been out of stock for close to a year now and I wouldn't be surprised if they're never coming back.




I noticed this morning that my Pachanoi 'Torres & Torres' x Pachanoi Ecquador tray sprouted the first little one :smile:

Look at this pic I found of one of these T&T plants-- do you see a similarity to your Matucana'a?



According to records, the Torres & Torres lineage is a high-altitude Chilean Pach line-- so maybe the characteristics are similar because of the altitude...

Here's another pic variant of the Torres -- though this one has a bit more pronounced areole size-- still looks like the same family as the Matucana pics you posted to me. Anyone else agree?
Torres and Torres



Edited by coAsTal (11/05/19 12:44 PM)


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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: coAsTal]
    #26300869 - 11/05/19 02:25 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Damn those are fat


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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: Tripsten] * 1
    #26301065 - 11/05/19 03:39 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Lovely pics. Matucana pachanoi are fatter generally. As was said areole size is smaller on Mp line. Spines are generally shorter and thinner too.

Kind of reminds me of a pachanoi here called Bogan. Think the spines on my Bogan are a bit thicker than the trichs in the photo.

Hope those seedlings sprout well. I remember someone else in Germany I think giving favourable comments about potency of that seedline. So lets hope you get some good ones for keeps.

I'm rejoicing. A top I planted off pachanoi Yowie has shown first signs of flowering. Its a single column about five and a half foot high. Didnt pup. Well not yet. My mother plant is about the same height with multiple columns.

The columns arent as long because its pups are sprouting off the cut column and from the base. I put a lot of wood ash around their base about a month ago and watered it in. Looks like the potash has helped with flowering.

Reason I rejoice is now I know that pachanoi will flower in my climate. So there is hope for Mp to flower in the years to come.


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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: Heyowana]
    #26301130 - 11/05/19 04:02 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

What in your guys experience are the best strains
I know it varies regardless but is it straight random EVERY single time
Or do some strains / varieties offer more average potency


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