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OfflineHeyowana
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: Grey Fox] * 1
    #26292916 - 11/01/19 08:28 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I remember reading somewhere that bridgesii tea the longer its boiled for the less nausea it produces. That might be worth looking into if the nausea makes you avoid a straight bridgesii trip.

From personal experience I don't know. Only tried Con then Tig at 14 hrs or so. After that I boiled everything at 24 hrs. Con and Tig with the longer boiling time were stronger. Tea tastes worse however. The effect seemed deeper and more psychedelic. Maybe more meaningful.

To me cactus trips tell me a story about my life. It's done in a very unconventianal way. As in not like a psychologist trying to psychoanalyse someone from a perspective based on cultural mores. Cactus does it like a wise teacher that just knows my mind. Sounds a bit cliche but that's how it appears from my perspective.

Then I can take that knowledge into life. Without self importance knowing I'm just a tiny speck in the universe that's prepared to give it a go. Whatever that may be. In a loving caring way towards humanity.
Blah blah blah. I'm not out of it. Maybe I should be. Soon I hope.


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: Heyowana]
    #26292962 - 11/01/19 08:54 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Wise words-- now get some sleep, you have a big day tomorrow :wink:


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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: coAsTal] * 1
    #26293035 - 11/01/19 09:39 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Usually I brew the tea for around 12 to 14 hours.  Logistically it would be hard for me to brew it longer than that.  But the potency is good so I'm happy with it.

I like to take a fat piece of pach or scop 6 to 10 inches long and combine it with a piece of bridgesii of the same length to make tea.  The bridgesii is thinner so it usually works out to 2 or 3 parts pach or scop to 1 part bridgesii by volume.  The cuttings I use are from plants growing in the ground for several years.  The cuttings tend to be pretty thick and I think that really helps with the strength.  I planted a lot of bridgesii to start out with, so I'm playing catch up right now and propagating more of the pachs and scops. 

I love these plants.  Very rewarding to grow them for the aesthetics and for the magic too.  There is a calming presence to them and I can feel it when I walk through the garden and observe their progress.  To me the cactus is more like a medicine than a drug.  It always feels like it is healing my body and mind.  I hope that these cacti spread all over the world.

All the best with tomorrow's journey.


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IT WAS ALL A DREAM


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OfflineHeyowana
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: coAsTal]
    #26293263 - 11/02/19 02:03 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Hey thanks. Its catching up with me. The lack of sleep that is.


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OfflineHeyowana
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: Grey Fox] * 1
    #26293272 - 11/02/19 02:17 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for sharing more about what cuts you take and the percentage of bridgesii in there. Very interesting. I so agree about the vibe of a cactus garden.

Each morning if its not raining I walk up the hill behind the shed to the garden. I do some breathing exercises for about 5 mins. Then it starts happening. The more I stare at the trichs the stiller my mind becomes. It's like a symbiotic thing.

I didn't feel that way before ever brewing up cactus tea. I used to have strange dreams about the garden. An owl would turn green and become one of the trichos. This happened three times. I thought it was strange that it wasn't the cactus becoming the owl but the other way around.

Anyway since drinking cactus tea those dreams have gone. Now its more a feeling thing. When I trip on mushrooms. Particularly P.papuana I can walk up to the garden and the trip gets stronger. I start seeing the same patterns and motiffs as when I'm on a cactus trip.

I'm very intrigued by the relationship that's developed between me and my cacti.


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: Heyowana]
    #26293801 - 11/02/19 09:55 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I think you might be on to something about mixing bridge as a ratio to scop or pach -- I'd bet that is a rare practice that could really change the game with a lot of people if they tried it.

One of the perpetual challenges with cactus is finding the sweet spot/threshold, and using bridge with scop (or known-consistent pachs) seems to be a smart way to catch a better spectrum of desired effects-- in all the years I've been around I don't remember seeing much (if any) discussion about purposeful blending of varieties to amplify/optimize effects.

Very interesting prospect...


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Invisiblesacramentum
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: coAsTal]
    #26294586 - 11/02/19 04:36 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I'm growing matucana pachanoi from the same seedline as Heyowana. I can vouch for there being multiple different phenotypes. mine are still small but I can post some pictures later. Definitely pachanoi looking at this stage and most definitely NOT peruvianus or macrogonus like ICAROS.
EDIT: is it against the rules to post vendor photos? The vendor has some pictures of mature seedlings.


Edited by sacramentum (11/02/19 05:00 PM)


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OfflineHeyowana
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: sacramentum]
    #26294887 - 11/02/19 06:58 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

How are your plants going? Mine are raging at the moment.


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: sacramentum]
    #26294929 - 11/02/19 07:21 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

As long as the pics don't identify the supplier-- just crop out or black out any vendor names and I'd think it would be OK?


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Invisiblesacramentum
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: Heyowana]
    #26294960 - 11/02/19 07:40 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Heyowana said:
How are your plants going? Mine are raging at the moment.



They've taken off since I started repotting them. Really happy with these seedlings so far.

Here is the vendor's photo of the matucana pachanoi seedlings. Sadly, these seeds have been out of stock for close to a year now and I wouldn't be surprised if they're never coming back.


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OfflineHeyowana
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: sacramentum] * 2
    #26295331 - 11/03/19 01:05 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

It is sad that a great seedline dries up never to be seen again. Then it's up to us. Pick out the best. Keep cloning them. Let a few columns grow untouched. Hopefully in the future they'll flower.

Next generation the genes are a bit more bottle necked. So more chance of getting better ones.They are vigorous growers so they might flower when tall enough.

I was reading a few years ago that the Matucana pachanoi wild population is declining rapidly. Its making its way into private gardens in the area. So they'll always be around from collectors I think.

You have quite a few seedlings off this seedline I think? You may get some really good ones I hope.


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Invisiblesacramentum
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: Heyowana]
    #26295629 - 11/03/19 07:04 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah I have about 30 of them. One or two seem to be the really long spined phenotype you mentioned. I'll definitely be sampling and propagating them in the coming years.
I'd love to eventually cross one of them with my ogunbodede clone, which is also from matucana.


Edited by sacramentum (11/03/19 07:05 AM)


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: sacramentum] * 1
    #26295716 - 11/03/19 08:02 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I think that's where the longevity of good lines comes from-- the patience of growers like you to commit 10 or 20 years to sticking with a clear goal.

It's a huge time investment to start seed, (graft, if chosen) then duplicate tested clones enough to verify chosen traits, THEN get them mature enough to seed, then grow out their children. Test them, and start distributing the seeds.

Most people just grow them until they have enough mass to eat and that's it.
It's a noble goal to really propagate a lineage-- they say that the Scopulicola breeds we see aren't found in the wild anymore-- that they only exist in cultivation. One day that could be true of many of the lines that are most popular.


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OfflineHeyowana
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: sacramentum] * 1
    #26296509 - 11/03/19 02:23 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Would you ever try the Ogunbodede pachanoi? Sounds like its a bit of a financial investment to acquire one. Never the less it would be interesting to compare potency. Say with the best of the seedline.

To put it into perspective. A clone with 4.8%? mescaline concentration crossed with a seedling as powerful as that Mp9. Wow those babies would have a kick to them me thinks!


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OfflineHeyowana
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: coAsTal] * 1
    #26296551 - 11/03/19 02:43 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Yes I remember reading the introduction of goats. Into the Bolivian countryside destroyed the local scopulicola population.

I'd like to have a good scopulicola. All mine and crosses thereof were crap. Were rejected. Keeper trout showed a photo of one in the Ogunbodede potency testing from 2010. It was from Australia and went 0.85%.Quite reasonable.

So far Scopulicola x Tig, HB05 and Lance have been rejected from my garden. I bet there would be good seedlings around off Scopulicola x Tig. If they took after the father, Tig in the cross. I just scored a dud.

I have 39 Tig x Yowie and Yowie x Tig. Biggest are approaching a foot in height. Should have had a lot more. Tig x Yowie which germinated well. A hundred seeds. I lost most of them through neglect.

They didnt seem to be growing as babies. Then they'd rot away. It wasnt till I transplanted them that I found the cause. Two thirds of the cactus was under the soil. They were growing down more than up.

After putting them into the ground as tiny things. I didnt lose one. Funny. Makes me wonder if I could start the seed off in the ground. Would probably work if the weather was warm enough.


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: Heyowana] * 1
    #26296644 - 11/03/19 03:42 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I do have a (Scop x Tig) x Scop set among my two dozen or so varieties currently in their infancy.
Among my first set of trays started early this September is a (Scop x Psycho0) x Bridge 'Short Spine', and it happens to be one of my 100% germ rate successes-- looking forward to that set growing up :smile:

I have weighted my garden plans heavily in favor of the Scopulicola/Cordobensis types from Australia, and several crosses with some known quality Pachanoi and Bridge selections too. (That's what brought me into this thread-- like everyone else I've read K. Trout and know of the Ogunbode and other Matucana-area finds, and I was surprised (and hopeful) to hear that there were Pach seeds available from there, since most of the lit I've read were about Peruvianus in that area. Alas, that ship has sailed long prior to my awareness. I still grow more excited by te day with my small corner of the cactus growers world.

I guess really I just want a garden that's rare in these parts, and while I understand that Scops aren't necessarily going to be powerhouse alk carriers, I also know that they are in the minority of the studied families, not a lot of people stateside grow them, and I know they are a reliably nice plant-- plus I love the smooth trichs appearance-- Most of the Pach/Cordo blends I selected were in the micro-to-no spine camp.
  :mitebecool:


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I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the Heart's affections and the truth of Imagination--  John Keats

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Edited by coAsTal (11/03/19 03:47 PM)


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Invisiblesacramentum
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: coAsTal] * 1
    #26296694 - 11/03/19 04:14 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Glad to hear about all the genetic diversity you guys are growing out! The seedlings i'm growing out right now are all pachanoi: Huarazensis x Lima, Torres & Torres x Huarazensis, Lima x Huarazensis, Huarazensis x Ecuadorian, Torres & Torres x Ecuadorian and of course the matucana pachanoi.
I'll definitely be sampling the Ogunbodede sometime down the line, and when I do I'll post my results here.


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OfflineHeyowana
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: sacramentum]
    #26296764 - 11/03/19 04:54 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Far out. Thank you very much guys for more info about your gardens.

I like the scop look too. Fat and almost spineless. In pics I've seen of the Ogunbodede cactus that was tested. It looked spineless. I wonder if that was for handling? Has the Ogubodede clone got spines?

I know seedlings look more spiney than older plants. Can't find out much about Torres & torres? A guy on shaman australis posted a report on his bioassay years ago. He didn't have much and seemed to like it.

All that diversity in your gardens. All the different crosses. Looking at it as the devils advocate. Like I don't neccessarily think hybridising will help in the long run.

Short term with a large selection there should be some good ones. Long term they need to remain in the cloned state because their progeny have a larger genepool to select from.

Say I picked the two best Mat.pachs from the 54 growing. Give the rest away. Clone them to distribute them in other peoples gardens. To make sure of preservation. Then let the two best grow untouched. Controlled pollination maybe if other cacti are flowering.

Then same thing again with the next generation. Would take years. Unlike with weed. Where we are trying to undo all the years of hybridising. It only takes a year max for a generation. How fucked up the weed scene is these days.

All those ass kicking sativas bred out of existence. At least with cactus once you have a good one its there for keeps. So I guess the point I'm making doesn't really matterbecause of the long lifespan of a cactus.....?


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: Heyowana]
    #26296866 - 11/03/19 05:53 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Heyowana said:

Short term with a large selection there should be some good ones. Long term they need to remain in the cloned state because their progeny have a larger genepool to select from.

Say I picked the two best Mat.pachs from the 54 growing. Give the rest away. Clone them to distribute them in other peoples gardens. To make sure of preservation. Then let the two best grow untouched. Controlled pollination maybe if other cacti are flowering.

Then same thing again with the next generation. Would take years.





Very true-- this is in line with my thoughts as well-- and it's where advanced grafting of the finest in the group can pretty quickly accelerate the propagation of identical clones deemed worthy of distribution amongst dedicated collectors.

Pete666 on the Nexus is trying trich areole grafts with success, meaning that he could hypothetically (with great care, of course) slice out every areole off of a 3' cactus and turn each of those areoles into into dozens of new scions-- without even killing the mother plant!

Following a few months of graft growth, each of those scions could themselves be divided and cloned using the same areole method, resulting in (hypothetically) hundreds/thousands of identical plants that would be rootable without aid of graft stock within a year of grafting.

The goal of people like yourself is a noble one-- and the home horticultural techniques exist today that can rapidly duplicate one plant into thousands within a year or two, provided there is space and perseverance to accomplish this.

All it takes is the kind of testing and measured conditions/note-taking like your efforts in this thread to introduce a new standard into the world.



Edited by coAsTal (11/03/19 06:01 PM)


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OfflineHeyowana
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Re: Matucana pachanoi. [Re: coAsTal]
    #26296948 - 11/03/19 06:41 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Wonderful. Very interesting. Luther Burbank eat your heart out. He did it with populations of 500,000  for a species. I remember reading Sam the skunkman used 10's of thousands in his haze preservation. Then the Dutch culled all the good ones because they didn't suit their growing conditions.

Last point in relation to cactus would have some bearing. Say I take a clone from Matucana and try and grow it in a marginal area. Somewhere too temperate. It may not perform up to expectations. Growth may be affected. Even potency without that strong radiation from the sunlight.

With a seedline I could select individuals that suit my conditions as the prme factor. Secondly potency. Of the most vigorous plants select the most potent.

So far that's been the deciding factor for me because I want to try them. Most vigorous are the first tried. Out of them Mp9 is the best.Mp10 is nearly as overwhelming but not as potent.

Odd thing Mp9 has the shortest spines of all. Next is Mp10. Coincidence? Maybe. I have plenty left to try but vigour or suitability to my climate is a key factor in selection.


Edited by Heyowana (11/03/19 06:44 PM)


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