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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Indigenous vs. civilized approaches * 3
    #26216811 - 09/28/19 08:40 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Indigenous peoples were perhaps “overdoing it,” as David Bohm said – attributing more spirit and more inherent being to Natural phenomena than is perhaps actually there. But on the other hand, stratified, civilized societies are too far in the opposite direction, essentially positing human stewardship over a stupid and hostile Nature, which is seen to be basically mechanistic and soulless. Some middle ground might be a saner philosophy, although I would say the former approach is the sounder and more appropriate course, as it acknowledges truths that are ignored or denied by sedentary peoples, and is holistic and venerating of Earth and its powers. Certainly it was a lot less fragmented and harmful.

There seems to be renewed interest in holistic views, but what relevance that will have for our future is uncertain. Certainly we've got ourselves in quite a mess with our fragmented ontology.


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Re: Indigenous vs. civilized approaches [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26217169 - 09/28/19 11:58 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Reminds me a bit of those talks between Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson that happened a few months ago. Harris to me personifies that idea that humanity is at a point culturally where the old ideas and our proclivity for animism and what we’d think of as “superstition” is no longer needed, or is something we should work hard to recognize and correct for. Peterson seems like “Joseph Campbell lite” and seems to argue that there’s no avoiding this stuff; it’s in us in a manner little different than the most striking and frequently embodied archetypes and stories. We play out archetypes and stories helplessly. His attachment to religion is a bit strange.

I’ve grown lazy over the years and I’m at a point now where I rest on the assumption that the middle ground is probably correct. There are ideas and barbarities from the past that were clearly wrong. There are things we do now that will surely be looked at as tasteless, stupid or archaic one-hundred years from now (if this incarnation of society is still here).

The state of nature is chaotic and arguably not something to idealize or strive to return to. We’ve improved our standard of living immensely by exerting some control over nature; we also stand poised to potentially wipe ourselves out in the process, though.

Still, we cannot devalue nature or that primordial mystery of where did this all come from in the first place? Nature is wise in ways men will never apprehend and yet it is mankind that has turned the dial of needless suffering down through our ability to manipulate our environment.

This whole thing is a process and those of us who care are on the edges of our seats.


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Re: Indigenous vs. civilized approaches [Re: CountHTML] * 2
    #26217852 - 09/29/19 11:12 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

It's talked about often on here, but very little in academia, how much of an effect mind-altering plants and fungus had on past civilizations.

Visionary plants are one of the few things that humans do that are seemingly non-advantageous evolutionarily. They don't hit the pleasure centers of the brain like other intoxicants, instead they leave you vulnerable and confused. There are theories that they played a role in the evolution of human symbolic thinking, I don't have any real opinion on that but I can't think of an evolutionary drive currently that brings humans to eat a pile of mushrooms and hallucinate for 6 hours. They seem to provide a foresight that we see as advantageous though.

The ancients often looked at them as medicine, and the trip as an ordeal necessary for healing. Whether it was a shaman journeying into the spirit realm to bring back knowledge on the cures for someone's disease, or an ill person being given the drug to elicit their own power of internal healing.

They were also seen as doorways to the "other". That other may be the spirit world, the afterlife, the kingdom of the gods, etc. By taking the drug they believed they were tapping into a different realm, and getting glimpses or existing there for little while.

While there were truly murderous and environmentally short-sited civilizations in the past who used these things, there were also groups (using aya/mushrooms in SA, iboga in Africa) who've survived sustainably for thousands of years, and will continue to do so if 'civilized' society would stop messing with them. That's a knowledge we've lost.

We have advanced technology and medicine, but it's no secret that this may be the sickest and most depressed non-epidemic-time society in history. I've taken many people camping, and almost everyone says they're instantly less stressed and happier getting away from the technology and the artificial landscape. Convenience is tempting, but is a trojan horse in terms of long-term happiness.

Psychedelic plant use continues to be associated with these thoughts of the foolishness of our innovation at all costs society. The hippy movement in the 60's was fueled by cannabis and LSD. Communes all over the country imbibe plant medicines. Many of those calling for reform on the insanity are people with past experience of these drugs, while the conservatives who are largely anti-drug are the defenders of the old-guard and business as usual.

So basically I think psychedelic use is immensely useful for forming a healthy society with a connection to nature, and we've moved so far in the opposite direction as to lock people in cages for doing what we may possibly need most. Not a new or revolutionary idea, I know, but they're the one thing that sit you down for an extended period and force you to look at the reality of the situation, with nowhere to hide (in your mind or out). It'd be a lot harder for CEO's and politicians to sell their soul if they weren't able to bury what they were doing away in the back of their mind, but were confronted with it on a regular basis.


Edited by feevers (09/29/19 11:37 AM)


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Indigenous vs. civilized approaches [Re: CountHTML] * 1
    #26217853 - 09/29/19 11:12 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

"If we assume man has been corrupted by an artificial civilization, what is the natural state? The state of nature from which he has been removed? Imagine wandering up and down the forest, without industry, without speech and without home."

Jean-Jacques Rousseau


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Re: Indigenous vs. civilized approaches [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26217889 - 09/29/19 11:34 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
"If we assume man has been corrupted by an artificial civilization, what is the natural state? The state of nature from which he has been removed? Imagine wandering up and down the forest, without industry, without speech and without home."

Jean-Jacques Rousseau




What's the natural state of a brain if it develops a tumor?


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Indigenous vs. civilized approaches [Re: feevers]
    #26217917 - 09/29/19 11:44 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

I'm seeing more and more "FUCK CANCER" bumper stickers, so a brain tumor isn't a natural state :smile:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Indigenous vs. civilized approaches [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #26217951 - 09/29/19 11:55 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
"If we assume man has been corrupted by an artificial civilization, what is the natural state? The state of nature from which he has been removed? Imagine wandering up and down the forest, without industry, without speech and without home."

Jean-Jacques Rousseau





Indeed, Rousseau's views on the matter are very famous, and were even instrumental in the formulating of this country. (I might add that all of the hunter-gatherers that have been studied have some form of language, but I think we can excuse Rousseau for not knowing this). Your post reminds me of Ovid's "Four Ages of Man," which I shall post here:


Quote:

Mythology - The Four Ages of Man According to Ovid

by Erin on May 23, 2012                                                 
http://www.mythography.com/myth/mythology-four-ages-of-man-according-to-ovid/


The other day, I looked at the Five Ages of Man according to Hesiod. In that post I listed these as the Golden Age, the Silver Age, the Bronze Age, the Age of Heroes, and the Age of Iron. There is another account of the ages of man that shares several similarities - and some striking differences - with Hesiod’s version, and it was also written by an ancient poet. This time, however, our poet is Roman. He is Ovid, famous for his tales of transformation in the work known as the Metamorphoses.

It is in the Metamorphoses that Ovid shares his interpretation of the Ages of Man. We simply have to open to Book One and jump ahead to lines 89 and following to find the Roman poet’s discussion of this subject. Incidentally, my source for this information is the book The Metamorphoses of Ovid, translated by Allen Mandelbaum.

The Golden Age / The Age of Gold
During the Golden Age, there were no laws, since the people of this period kept faith and behaved well without external compulsion. Indeed, men lived in peace, since there were no threats of violence, and they had no need for either weapons or defenses. The land freely offered its bounty without the assistance of agriculture. Ovid says of this time: “There spring was never ending. The soft breeze of tender zephyrs wafted and caressed the flowers that sprang unplanted, without seed.” In short, Ovid’s Age of Gold was an idyllic era of peace and prosperity.

The Silver Age / The Age of Silver
Things changed in the world during the reign of Jove (or he is also known, Jupiter). His rule ushered in the both the Silver Age and introduced the seasons. In the Age of Gold, spring was everlasting, while in the Age of Silver, less gentle climates emerged. As a result, now men took shelter from the cold and heat, as well as other harsh conditions, and built houses for the first time. In addition, plants were cultivated and harvested. Toil replaced leisure.

The Bronze Age / The Age of Bronze
Ovid has little to say about the Age of Bronze, other than the following: “The third age saw the race of bronze: more prone to cruelty, more quick to use fierce arms, but not yet sacrilegious.”

The Iron Age / The Age of Iron
The fourth and final age according to Ovid was the Age of Iron. It is during this age that things go pear-shaped. Ovid comments about the Iron Age: “And this, the worst of ages, suddenly gave way to every foul impiety; earth saw the flight of faith and modesty and truth - and in their place came snares and fraud, deceit and force and sacrilegious love of gain.” It goes downhill from there. War, betrayal, greed are all common in this dark age, and Ovid gives some specific (and chilling) examples in this passage.

It is worth noting that at the end of his rather gloomy description, Ovid includes this line: “…and the maid Astraea, last of the immortals, leaves the blood-soaked earth.” I suppose this detail deserves some explanation.





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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Indigenous vs. civilized approaches [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26218036 - 09/29/19 12:25 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

That's interesting DQ. Of course this really stands out

Quote:

Mythology - The Four Ages of Man According to Ovid

Ovid comments about the Iron Age: “And this, the worst of ages, suddenly gave way to every foul impiety; earth saw the flight of faith and modesty and truth - and in their place came snares and fraud, deceit and force and sacrilegious love of gain.” It goes downhill from there. War, betrayal, greed are all common in this dark age . . .







I'd like to read "Discourse on Inequality" by Rousseau if it's not to heavy (I prefer relatively easy reading, LOL). I guess the punch line is the conclusion that private property is at the root of all inequality. That makes a lot of sense to me.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Indigenous vs. civilized approaches [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #26218085 - 09/29/19 12:43 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Yes, that stands out rather starkly. I have read Rousseau, but it was a long time ago and I don't remember what it was like.

I would say, as far as private property being the root of inequality (and all the rest), that it is a view anthropologists share, albeit this is a very basic way to state it. The way I think about the origins of inequality is that the population reaches a certain size at which abandoning agriculture is not an option, and the plots get so large and complex that irrigation is necessary. As soon as something like this happens, people have to be selected to oversee the administration of the irrigation system for the village or society as a whole.

As soon as you have this "water manager," you have an institution in which power exists. And everything follows from that. Pretty soon, there are all sorts of administrators, and priests and warriors, and of course by this time property has had to be private for a while -- nothing else makes any sense. So agricultural plots, or the land on which they exist, are owned, and we have power, and of course some will therefore have more property than others and boom! you have inequality and the outlines of civilization that will continue, in their essence unchanged, until the present day. It has taken us about 10,000 years to get from there to here.

What is interesting is that Ovid was making statements about the Roman world that apply eerily well today. We think back on the Romans as simple compared to us, but maybe that's not very smart.


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Indigenous vs. civilized approaches [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26218103 - 09/29/19 12:50 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Very nice summary! And agriculture often provides an excess of food, which must be managed and defended.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Indigenous vs. civilized approaches [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26218126 - 09/29/19 12:58 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Absolutely. And right there you've got technicians, making sure the food doesn't spoil, a boss or bosses, and the police to make sure no one tries to steal. Things get complicated.


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OfflineCountHTML
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Re: Indigenous vs. civilized approaches [Re: feevers] * 1
    #26218352 - 09/29/19 02:10 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

I agree that psychedelic use and the psychedelic experience specifically cuts to the very root of the Western existential problem. Hence, they're a taboo. They're like realty goggles and seem to bring about awareness of reality through some kind of harmonization. We get bent into confused tritones, weathered by life and the myriad influences vying for our attention but the psychelics bring us back into a chord of perfectly stacked thirds, or fiths, if that's the sound you prefer.

"Civilized" societies miss out immensely by neglecting such technologies because, in a way, I think they are one of the missing keys for restoring balance to our society and minds.

The engine of Western consumerism--most notably advertising--would seem threatened by this, though. As would big pharma, etc.


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Re: Indigenous vs. civilized approaches [Re: CountHTML]
    #26218468 - 09/29/19 03:07 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

I see it as the coordination of our nesting and physical action defenses:
nest -> tree -> cave -> tent -> hut -> house -> castle -> village -> city -> starship.
physical defenses -> chores/responsibilities -> food tasks and assignments -> job responsibilities -> leisure zone defenses.

each position we take provides opportunities, yet may be attacked or interfered with by some passing event.

We accept more complexity as we get better with handling interference, and we automate the task, but are prone to make errors of perception, often defending some position or activity against what would really be a much more helpful influence than a hindering one.

Each time the defenses kick in it is very likely that the we return to atavistic origins and the complicated civilization is seemingly at odds with our lizard brain defenses of our little zone of operations.

I think it is natural for us to love complexity and also natural for us to experience primitive defensiveness about anything we think of as our "rightful" place, role, or activity.

while private ownership can lead to serfdom and slavery, it is an expression of defensiveness around the home or roles taken to an unhealthy extreme.

I would like to see the question of home and the rights of residency expanded to provide a direction for our society to advance.

(note: this morning I awoke from a dream in which another couple was already in our bed, and we were droopy tired, defensive, and confused about what comes next)


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Re: Indigenous vs. civilized approaches [Re: CountHTML] * 2
    #26218566 - 09/29/19 04:10 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CountHTML said:

I agree that psychedelic use and the psychedelic experience specifically cuts to the very root of the Western existential problem. Hence, they're a taboo. They're like realty goggles and seem to bring about awareness of reality through some kind of harmonization. We get bent into confused tritones, weathered by life and the myriad influences vying for our attention but the psychelics bring us back into a chord of perfectly stacked thirds, or fiths, if that's the sound you prefer.




The psychedelic experience can help reveal the illusions created by language and the labels we adopt and assign. 


The extreme inequality of our ways of life, the excess of idleness among some and the excess of toil among others, the ease of stimulating and gratifying our appetites and our senses, the over-elaborate foods of the rich, which inflame and overwhelm them with indigestion... those late nights, excesses of all kinds, immoderate transports of every passion, fatigue, exhaustion of mind, the innumerable sorrows and anxieties that people in all classes suffer, and by which the human soul is constantly tormented: these are the fatal proofs that most of our ills are of our own making, and that we might have avoided nearly all of them if only we had adhered to the simple, unchanging and solitary way of life that nature ordained for us.
 

Jean-Jacques Rousseau (Discourse on the Origin of Inequality)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Indigenous vs. civilized approaches [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26218636 - 09/29/19 04:50 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

only if you don't take the defensive postures seriously can the expanded awareness be a good thing.


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Re: Indigenous vs. civilized approaches [Re: CountHTML] * 1
    #26219474 - 09/30/19 03:30 AM (1 year, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
The psychedelic experience can help reveal the illusions created by language and the labels we adopt and assign.




:justastonishing: :kenthumbup:

Spot on IMHO.


--------------------


Rational-Philosophy.net


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Indigenous vs. civilized approaches [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26220215 - 09/30/19 01:23 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

language does not create illusions,
we do it all by ourselves


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Re: Indigenous vs. civilized approaches [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26220325 - 09/30/19 02:12 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

That's an interesting statement. I guess an implication of it is that a lot more goes into our illusions than just language usage itself. On the other hand, language has a fantastically consequential effect on cultures, and therefore on history. Without getting too bogged down in that, let me just give a couple of examples. In the Indo-European languages -- English, Spanish, French, Latin, Greek, going all the way back to Sanskrit -- we have a subject-verb-object based grammar. So, in effect, it implies that individuals carry out acts on static objects, and that nouns have primary importance.

In languages like Navajo (or even Chinese, for a modern example), the verb is primary. So, these languages focus on contexts and actions, and people are no longer operating on static objects which have an existence "out there." In Navajo, there is no real object separate from the subject. And the language has virtually no nouns. Instead, objects are described using verb-like processes which determine their interactions and their contextual relationship with the perceiver.

So, you may have a point, but I just want to stress that, on a cultural level, which has had everything to do with historical dynamics, language plays a very central role.


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Re: Indigenous vs. civilized approaches [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26221296 - 09/30/19 10:24 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

now that we can keep video records, some of history can be watched as well as read.

but where people go mental - words are secondary to the madness, merely symptomatic of what is in the heart (mind).


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Re: Indigenous vs. civilized approaches [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26221304 - 09/30/19 10:28 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

Now we can build pyramids...


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