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Offlinephi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Why do we post here?
    #2620692 - 04/30/04 11:30 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

This post doesn't deal directly with politics, but with the question, "Why do we post to this political message board? What makes it worthwhile?"

Most regular posters here are committed to a position, and are unlikely to change it. I would be very surprised to see luvdemshrooms suddenly supporting Kerry on any issue; likewise, I am unlikely to vote for Bush, whatever happens here.
So, given that the various parties to debate rarely budge, why bother?

1) Not everybody who reads here posts here. It is possible, though unlikely, that the debates we have here will be witnessed and have an effect on those witnesses. For the most part, though, I think that the longer, more involved threads are only read by those who post in that particular thread. I know I don't bother reading alot of the threads around here.

2) Debate is edifying. By critically analyzing our own beliefs, we are given an opportunity to change and improve. We can refine our arguments, or adjust our position achieve an ever greater degree of self-consistancy. By having others analyze our positions, we may see flaws in our reasoning that otherwise would have remained hidden.

3) It's fun. Analyzing problems is fun; competition is fun. Even if nobody ever wins a debate, the application of reason in a competitive context brings us pleasure. The fact that the problems we debate carry emotional weight is just a bonus.



Anyway, these three reasons are the ones I've been able to come up with for why I post here. Any other thoughts?


Edited by phi1618 (04/30/04 11:34 AM)


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OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/04/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
Re: Why do we post here? [Re: phi1618]
    #2620784 - 04/30/04 11:53 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

We educate each other about the political issues. Pretty dangerous stuff, you know.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Why do we post here? [Re: phi1618]
    #2621083 - 04/30/04 01:21 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Most people don't change their views too much, but I have, as have a few others here. I was once a run-of-the-mill socialist, but over a long period of time, my views shifted more and more towards libertarianism. That said, I also agree with all three reasons given. Also, I have learned quite a lot from posting here.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Why do we post here? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2621795 - 04/30/04 03:52 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I was once a run-of-the-mill socialist

Maybe you thought you were a socialist. But if your beliefs had any depth behind them they couldn't have changed so much in 6 months.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: Why do we post here? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2621831 - 04/30/04 03:57 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

If his beliefs were Socialist they by definition had no depth


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,203
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Why do we post here? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2621922 - 04/30/04 04:19 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
I was once a run-of-the-mill socialist

Maybe you thought you were a socialist. But if your beliefs had any depth behind them they couldn't have changed so much in 6 months.



Most people grow up. It's the wise ones who can see the folly of their previous positions.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,203
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Why do we post here? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2621924 - 04/30/04 04:19 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If his beliefs were Socialist they by definition had no depth


:thumbup:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 2 years, 17 days
Re: Why do we post here? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2622780 - 04/30/04 07:23 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

If his beliefs were Socialist they by definition had no depth




Quote:

Most people grow up. It's the wise ones who can see the folly of their previous positions.




the lack of effort you give to see another person's side of an argument is a sign of your lack of maturity and/or intelligence. That you continue to see all your views as simply rational and the others irrational rather than a different value system is often depressing and a major reason i post less and less here.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: Why do we post here? [Re: Tao]
    #2622846 - 04/30/04 07:42 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

It is somewhat hipocritical of you to assume that we have rejected the Socialism argument because we have refused to examine it and not due to the fact that we have thought a great deal about that system and found it to be utterly lacking. Trust me when I tell you that I was not born with an agenda but rather, after years of reflection and study, have come to the conclusion that Socialism is a total disaster. Of course I see my positions as rational and dissenting ones as mistaken. Otherwise, I wouldn't have those positions. You're at least as guilty of what you are accusing us of.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Why do we post here? [Re: Tao]
    #2622931 - 04/30/04 08:05 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Tao TeChing writes:

the lack of effort you give to see another person's side of an argument is a sign of your lack of maturity and/or intelligence.

When someone presents to me an argument I haven't seen before, I do consider it. That's exactly the process by which I went from a typical Woodstock era soft left doper protest attender who was a shop steward for a Canadian Union run by the Canadian Marxist-Leninist Party to eventually a full-on Laissez-faire Capitalist. It was not an overnight conversion.

I have been reading and discussing and contemplating these issues for three decades now. I'll venture to state that I have read considerably more history, philosophy, and political science than the majority of the posters here. It's not as if some Capitalist marched up to me one day, whacked me with an Enlightenment stick and said, "go forth and sin no more". It was a lengthy and laborious process, and it continues today. As just one example of a recent change in my views, I find myself leaning more and more towards the Georgist concept of land "leasing" as a non-coercive method of funding government. I am not yet fully convinced, but I am giving it serious contemplation.

And although luvdemshrooms may have been a bit abrupt in his desription of Socialism and its adherents, he is nonetheless accurate --

1)Socialism doesn't hold up to objective scrutiny.
2) It is far more common for the young to abandon Socialism as they learn more (grow up) than it is for the old to embrace Socialism.

Finally, zappaisgod is bang on when he says that the Leftists here defend their postion every bit as vigorously as do the Libertarians. Why then are you not accusing the Lefties of lacking effort?

pinky


--------------------


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,203
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Why do we post here? [Re: Tao]
    #2622956 - 04/30/04 08:10 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Right. Keep in mind that after 46 years, I've done plenty of thinking about other view points.

What you see as lack of effort is merely the result of years of learning, reading and watching. I grew up during the cold war and as a result have seen things you've only heard about.


So I say to you.... the lack of effort you give to see another person's side of an argument is a sign of your lack of maturity and/or intelligence.

And..... That you continue to see all your views as simply rational and the others irrational rather than a different value system is often depressing and a major reason i post less and less here.

Having "been there" during a time you can only read about gives one a bit different perspective. I've seen it tried.... I've seen it fail. Human nature will not accepst socialism. Is is a system for the weak and the meak.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: Why do we post here? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2624099 - 05/01/04 02:08 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Most people grow up. It's the wise ones who can see the folly of their previous positions.





there is a difference between "growing up" and "being molded into a tool".


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Why do we post here? [Re: Tao]
    #2624127 - 05/01/04 02:19 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

the lack of effort you give to see another person's side of an argument is a sign of your lack of maturity and/or intelligence. That you continue to see all your views as simply rational and the others irrational rather than a different value system is often depressing and a major reason i post less and less here.

Well put Tao  :thumbup:


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Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
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Re: Why do we post here? [Re: phi1618]
    #2624142 - 05/01/04 02:26 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

it's worthwhile alone to hear different opinions and to reflect and research them. i post here very on and off, but I read a lot, and I try to be like a sponge, taking in as much as I can, research, and reflect. everyone is different in their approach. jsut because you are one way, doesn't mean a majority is with you. to me it's not about winnig hte debate, it's the exchange of ideas that is important. kind of like the idea that "it's not the destination, but the journey that matters."


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: Why do we post here? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2624518 - 05/01/04 05:09 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Quote:

Most people grow up. It's the wise ones who can see the folly of their previous positions.





there is a difference between "growing up" and "being molded into a tool".



You think I'm a tool, huh? That's pretty close to a flame, but I'll let that slide. Just because my views have changed a little bit, everyone on the left has been acting lately like I'm a traitor. I don't dislike the left or right, and I don't consider myself to be on either side. I just happen to question things and adjust my views when I can't logically defend my established ones, a strategy often known as being open-minded. If you people can't accept that, then fuck you.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Why do we post here? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2624543 - 05/01/04 05:38 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Silversoul7, you don't get it. It doesn't matter that you can't logically defend some of the views you previously held. Logic is meaningless, man -- emotion is what counts. And besides, those views were correct anyway, whether you could defend them or not. How could they not be correct? After all, they are the views held by The Collective, and The Collective is never wrong. The Collective knows best.

You see, you just think it was you who changed your views. In reality, it wasn't you who changed your mind at all, it was the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy who brainwashed you. They molded you into a tool without you even noticing.

Now do you see the immense and dangerous and evil and contra-life power that logic and fact wield? Stay away from logic, dude. Run from facts like they were cooties. It's ever so much better to submit to emotion and the popular whim of the week. Don't expend the effort to think -- it will only earn you the same contempt from The Collective that is exhibited towards the geeks and poindexters in high school. Thought is uncool, man. Go with the flow.

pinky


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,203
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Why do we post here? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2624596 - 05/01/04 06:34 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Quote:

Most people grow up. It's the wise ones who can see the folly of their previous positions.





there is a difference between "growing up" and "being molded into a tool".



So anyone who has reached different conclusions than you is a tool?    :lol:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,203
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Why do we post here? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2624600 - 05/01/04 06:40 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I just happen to question things and adjust my views when I can't logically defend my established ones, a strategy often known as being open-minded.



And an admirable strategy it is.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,203
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Why do we post here? [Re: Phred]
    #2624601 - 05/01/04 06:42 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

You see, you just think it was you who changed your views. In reality, it wasn't you who changed your mind at all, it was the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy who brainwashed you. They molded you into a tool without you even noticing.



:lol:  :thumbup:


You need to write a book: "The best of pinky".

Oh wait.... that title could be taken the wrong way.  :wink:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Why do we post here? [Re: Phred]
    #2624748 - 05/01/04 08:51 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

It was not an overnight conversion.

What difference does it make how long it took you to reach a wrong conclusion? If you read Mein Kampf you'll find reams of statements like "I objectively reached this decision after carefully studying all the facts". The trouble is the decisions Hitler came to were all ludicrous.

Don't confuse your opinion with reality. They arn't the same thing.

Socialism doesn't hold up to objective scrutiny

In YOUR opinion. Once again, try not to confuse opinion with reality.

It is far more common for the young to abandon Socialism as they learn more (grow up) than it is for the old to embrace Socialism.

Source? I know it's the thing for right-wingers to say "I came to this conclusion after carefully studying all the facts..". I've certainly never met a genuine left-winger with any depth of thought or knowledge who became a right-winger in real life. Indeed Tony Benn the renowned UK socialist stated he became MORE left-wing as he got older and learned more about the world.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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