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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Why do we believe?
    #2619713 - 04/30/04 03:24 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

For a long time I have asked myself, ?why do people believe in God?? The answer is really quite simple however- they believe because they want to, or more probably because they need to.

Originally, religion was ?created? to explain. Why does the wind blow, what makes the trees grow, where does water come from, where does it go, what are stars, the moon, and the sun? To primitive man, these things were all wondrous and magical. All of the things that early humans did not understand either became gods, or were controlled by the gods. The majority of the unknown however, has become known. As our species has evolved, we have begun to understand the science of the earth. We learned how things work: we explained the unexplainable. But still, science has not replaced god and it never will. It can?t, because there is one question that can never be answered. What happens when we die?

It is this one question that has kept faith alive, and kept it just as strong as it ever was. The world is still full of injustice, greed, hate, and pain: just as it was centuries ago. We need to believe, we need to have hope. In this modern age, life is still very difficult for most of us, full of pain and sorrow. For many, it is the light at the end of the tunnel that keeps us going and gives us the will to fight on. The promise of eternal bliss makes the hardships worth bearing. The prophets of the past all understood this need for hope, which is why they were able to preach their faiths so effectively. It is this hope that is the main pillar of the major Judo-Christian religions, the hope of a life after death, the hope of a life better than this one.

So I have come to realize God exists for two main reasons: to explain the unexplained, and to cope with a hard world. Religion however, has served another greater purpose: to unify, and control the people. Early holy men were quick to catch on to this effect, and even quicker to exploit it, for better or for worse. It is religion that created government, and the two have remained hand in hand throughout history up until this very day. The Egyptians built the pyramids because their god commanded it to be done. Both great and terrible things have been done in the name of god. Cities have been built, and wars have been fought. Starving children have been fed, and innocent children have been murdered. If you look, it is easy to see which events were the work of religion and which were the work of government.

In the world in which I live, the three major Judo-Christian religions are supreme. As I mentioned before, the center of these religions is the hope of something better after death. According to that ideology, we are here on earth only to prepare for the afterlife. Our bodies and lives are meaningless compared to the everlasting eternity that is to come. So what does it matter what we do while we are here, if this life is just a pit stop on our path to a better place?

The world in which I live is a much different one than that of Moses, Mohammad, or Jesus. We, as humans have learned a great deal since the time of these men. We know why there is day and night, we know what causes the waves in the sea, and we know what causes earthquakes and other natural phenomena. Why then do we still believe the promises of men who lived and died thousands of years ago? We still face some of the same problems as people did in ancient times, yes. And some of the values that they taught are still important, yes. But are we supposed to blindly believe the promises of men who cast magic spells and looked to the skies for signs from god?

I for one will not. We still have to believe, we need to believe. But we are no longer living in the past; it is time to move on. I refuse to spend my life preparing for death. I am here right now, so I will live right now. It is time for something new, something modern.


--------------------
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Offlineturboturd
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Re: Why do we believe? [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2620678 - 04/30/04 11:26 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

well, I had something nice typed out, then the forum or my computer took a shit on me.

Have faith in GOD and you will be at peace with yourself.

What moddern needs to happen? I think modern religion is more of a person thing. Rather than getting up and going to church all the time, you need to understand GOD for yourself rather than have someone else preach at you.

Sometimes it helps to have someone beat it into you, but it's not the way to get into heaven. You must understand yourself and then you can start to understand the higher workings of our divine master.

Life is more of a learning experience, a test if you will. A test to see if you are prepared for the unreal realm that most can only hope to comprehend.

Some people try to describe heaven, but heaven cannot be described by anyone other than yourself. Heaven is yourself, understanding you as a spiritual being.

My 'new', 'evolving' religion is found within psychoactive substances. I use salvia often to try to attain answers and religious knowledge, and after my crop of shrooms are done I will understand much more about myself and GOD. In hopes anyways.

so whats your version of modern religion? or are you searching for it?


--------------------
'In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti'

don't wig out on the turd.


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OfflineLux
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Re: Why do we believe? [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2620886 - 04/30/04 12:21 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

In the beginning of my searching I took great interest in a certain path. I made up my mind that I would follow this path to the best of my ability, I would accept everything that it taught as true until I had reason not to. I came to find that all my life I had shrugged off many things as stupid and pointless without even trying because that was what the consensual reality of man, or my society, had instilled in me. After realizing this and then actually doing these stupid little things that this path teaches I came to build my own personal experience. I do not require faith. Faith can be torn to pieces, personal experience cannot.

I suppose you could say that it took an initial faith to partake in this path that would eventually lead to build experience, but I do not feel this way. I feel that it took a destruction of faith in the reality that had been taught to me by my society that allowed me to find my own path, then again, anytime that I think I have found my path I find a fork in the road and I have to again consider the path I will take. :smile:

My intention in telling you this was to illustrate that no, you should not 'blindly believe the promises of men who cast magic spells and looked to the skies for signs from god', but you should also not blindly believe the promises of men with ideas of something new, something modern. Look at it all without judgement and find out for yourself.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why do we believe? [Re: turboturd] * 1
    #2620902 - 04/30/04 12:27 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I am also committed to salvia as a sacrament or linkage to something enlightening.

The idea of being taught by gestalt experiences is definitely part of it.

Our expressions in this world reveal our understanding and the marks that persist, in our art and social systems, are milestones for those who follow.

I rediscover a path through moments that supports growth and that leaves good traces or at least no heavy load for those who follow.


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: Why do we believe? [Re: turboturd]
    #2621341 - 04/30/04 02:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

My 'new', 'evolving' religion is found within psychoactive substances. I use salvia often to try to attain answers and religious knowledge, and after my crop of shrooms are done I will understand much more about myself and GOD. In hopes anyways.

so whats your version of modern religion? or are you searching for it?




My version dosn't really exists yet, I'm still working out the details. I used to be an athiest, and felt very strongly that there was nothing out there whatsoever. That was before I started using mushrooms on a regular basis. Now I have a few beliefs forming in my head, it isn't quite a religion yet though.

Quote:

My intention in telling you this was to illustrate that no, you should not 'blindly believe the promises of men who cast magic spells and looked to the skies for signs from god', but you should also not blindly believe the promises of men with ideas of something new, something modern. Look at it all without judgement and find out for yourself.




Of course, I don't blindly believe anyones promises. I believe in myself, what I feel in my heart, and the earth. I wasn't talking about becoming a scientologist. I do try to look at it all, but it is very hard not to judge when so many things are so obviously wrong.


--------------------
Yeah spinnin' around again
yea caught in a tailspin


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OfflineLux
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Re: Why do we believe? [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2621400 - 04/30/04 02:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Things being obviously wrong can be a matter of perspective. Are you simply perceiving in terms of the consensual reality that society at large agrees on? How are you basing things to be obviously wrong?


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: Why do we believe? [Re: Lux]
    #2621488 - 04/30/04 02:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Jesus didn't come back. God didn't create man in 7 days, we evolved over millions of years. We've spent centuries killing each other because of what invisible man we worship. The apocolypse isn't coming. Heaven and hell are scare tactics used to control. It's all just wrong.


--------------------
Yeah spinnin' around again
yea caught in a tailspin


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Offlinecosmicchic
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Re: Why do we believe? [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2621556 - 04/30/04 03:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

That last one was powerful Chief!

Some of the above can all be looked at as symbology for deeper truths. One can say that the second coming of Christ is really about the re-emergence of Christ Consciousness within us all. I mean- if the church told us that we are becoming christed beings in this age- why would we need them? 7 days was metaphorical for something- I forget. I think it took billions of years to get to this form. Yes! the apocolypse and ideas of heaven and hell are scare tactics for gaining control. And the key word why people kill over an invisible man is due to the fucked up energy of "worship".

And for all the reasons you mentioned, people are waking up to the lies and are beggining to see who has been spewing them to maintain control. Good stuff!

Love,
Cindy


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OfflineLux
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Re: Why do we believe? [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2621574 - 04/30/04 03:17 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I am not Christian and I absolutely agree with you on most of these particular things. Christianity is a perfect example of an extremely diluted truth fed to the pathless. I do strongly belive that Jesus could have been a person but that he was drastically misinterpreted. Who's to say that he didn't come back? Perhaps he meant in terms of energy, or perhaps even in terms of the physical body literally 'coming back' through the cycle of life. I am not saying these are or aren't my beliefs, simply giving an example of how perception can really change things.


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: Why do we believe? [Re: Lux]
    #2621605 - 04/30/04 03:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Of course, it's all about perception....and faith.

Did god create man in his image, or was it the other way around? The earth created man, man created god.

I find this verse from a Dead Prez song approptiate - "I believe man made god out of ignorance and fear, if god made man then why the hell would he put us here? I thought he's 'sposed to be the all lovin'? The same god who let Hitler put the Jews in the oven."


--------------------
Yeah spinnin' around again
yea caught in a tailspin


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Why do we believe? [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2621630 - 04/30/04 03:26 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ChiefThunderbong said:
Of course, it's all about perception....and faith.

Did god create man in his image, or was it the other way around? The earth created man, man created god.

I find this verse from a Dead Prez song approptiate - "I believe man made god out of ignorance and fear, if god made man then why the hell would he put us here? I thought he's 'sposed to be the all lovin'? The same god who let Hitler put the Jews in the oven."



That's assuming man and God are separate entities. If you believe, as I do, that we are all one, then creator and creation are one in the same.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineLux
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Re: Why do we believe? [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2621675 - 04/30/04 03:33 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

You and I have very different understandings of god. All throughout this thread has been a case of you interpreting my words into yours which results in something different. You are talking of spirituality more in terms of religion such as christianity while I am not.


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: Why do we believe? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2621734 - 04/30/04 03:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Thats an interesting thought....I'm not sure if I agree or not though.


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Yeah spinnin' around again
yea caught in a tailspin


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: Why do we believe? [Re: Lux]
    #2621744 - 04/30/04 03:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

May I ask what your understanding of god is then?


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Yeah spinnin' around again
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OfflineLux
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Re: Why do we believe? [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2621813 - 04/30/04 03:56 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I typically try not to use the term god at all really, but it's the best way to express it to those not on my path.

Everything is alive, not necessarily in the way that you are accustomed to, such as people and animals are alive. The world is first a world of energy which is an extension of this source, and then a world of solid objects which is a manifestation of the world of energy.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why do we believe? [Re: Lux] * 1
    #2622299 - 04/30/04 05:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

angst is real and it is a real power.
nature is real and it supports everything.

what was said about history is true,

but the wars not have really been in the name of gods but that cast has been added - tacked on for superstitious good luck: wars have been about oil or land or food - like that.


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: Why do we believe? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #2622456 - 04/30/04 06:10 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

What is angst? About wars, yes and no. Like I said, war is a product of government. Yes, they pretty much were all about land, money, and power.....but many were fought in the name of god. It was the Pope that called for the crusades. Of course not all wars were directly fought in the name of god, but they pretty much all at least had religious undertones. For instance, Vietnam - christians vs athiests.

Quote:

nature is real and it supports everything.



:yesnod: :thumbup:


--------------------
Yeah spinnin' around again
yea caught in a tailspin


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Why do we believe? [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2623256 - 04/30/04 10:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

you find manipulation everywhere.
I had lunch with my lawyer friend
he wanted to talk about a business problem
he kept insinuating that I had to see things a certain way.
I proposed that I now did and therefore I now knew that I was wrong, if only we could stop discussing this!
I had personal questions to ask him which he did not want to discuss.
what an experience! he kept driving me on his crusade, but it was defensive.
I finally drove him back to his office and I took the rest of the day off.
He is a good friend but very strong and very full of this angst - a human anger-loneliness complex.

So yeah philosophy/religion/chivalry/sportsmanship/integrity all these can be levers to flip a thinking person through argument onto one side or another of a battle. Being able to stop battles and ease out of such arguments is a real art.

I know of no wars fought "in the name of art". I guess my true religion is art.


Edited by redgreenvines (04/30/04 10:01 PM)


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Why do we believe? [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2625476 - 05/01/04 12:20 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Everything you have access to is borrowed from the Universe (God). Why do you believe your consciousness and life is an exception to the rule (an assumption)?

Organized religion and religious groups are mostly used to control, I agree.

My beliefs of who God is stem from my own brain, and I have found parallel correlations with my spiritual beliefs and my physical beliefs. So I choose to believe in the intelligence of the Universe of my own free will. Not out of fear or being unable to explain something.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflineBuddah1
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Re: Why do we believe? [Re: psyka]
    #2626125 - 05/01/04 03:27 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Blame is self perpetuating....it solves no problems

you do not need to belive in anything....just live selflessly in the moment....

anger, sadness, fear, and all bad things come from the attachment to "self"....

Death is nothing to be scared of, it is the only thing in this world that is certain...

War is a product of people and their perceptions of reality...our perceptions are formed by experience....change your perception and you can change your reality...thus your experience in it.


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