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OfflineTripsten
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Re: Mathematical Philosophies ? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26192113 - 09/16/19 03:47 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

I know it wasn’t dismissing my views as I hadn’t made my views known at that point
This wasn’t an argument
This threads purpose was me asking what a mathematical realist believes in

It’s alao the way you put things
Idk of you realize it but Imo you talk like your in ultimate truth and just trying to help others get there
Which makes any TRUE discussion impossible

I’m in a mode where I believe in discussion of ones personal convictions rather than trying to seem like I already know the answers

And no one need not “appeal to mind games” to understand simple duality lol
And also isn’t contradictory
That’s just a word that people who enjoy pretending they already know it all say to devalue others point whether they realize it or not

People like that , with far to many “rules” to discuss by which are just clever work arounds to show case their point ...

As for the long bit about patterns in nature and the number 3 lol
Again I’m not a mathematical realist, that was an assumption , and didn’t believe in mathematical entities I was literally only asking what that title even meant
But ya I know there’s no “wild three”

Also , no you said word for word many times “we have to agree on this or we will get no where”
And then in reply to my bring min that up said “those are my personal beliefs ect”
So you ARE saying that to reach a desirable goal in discussion we have to agree on the terms which you hold close
Unless you didn’t mean to word it that way.

I find when some one feels their philosophy to be the most logical or correct , they often struggle at the idea of a new answer reached through true discussion and logic



Edited by Tripsten (09/16/19 04:04 PM)


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OfflineTripsten
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Re: Mathematical Philosophies ? [Re: Tripsten]
    #26192170 - 09/16/19 04:08 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

But they also view things like imagination as meaningless or mind games
But you can’t even say for sure that “mind games” and paradoxes and philosophical problems aren’t people attempting to find the further answers.
Instead of blindly believing we already know based off logical grounds of “laws” we’ve noticed that aren’t even consistent 100% of the time in math or science or the observable universe or anything


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OfflineTripsten
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Re: Mathematical Philosophies ? [Re: Tripsten]
    #26192185 - 09/16/19 04:14 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

In fact funny enough history shows even logic isn’t always accurate a thing to go off of lol
And no , not like some edge lord line like “bad logic maybe”
Just logic , scientific method type problem solving , and so actually to fully base discussion on that sounds good on paper but in reality also wouldn’t lead anywhere either.
Maybe times through out history our greatest advances were done through imagination and feeling, many people state they feel a creative realm above them during these breakthroughs and how can we say they are wrong when their accomplishments are more real than our words and ideas of what everything is ?
Which at the end of the day is all anything that anyone knows
An idea of what could be


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Mathematical Philosophies ? [Re: Tripsten]
    #26192496 - 09/16/19 06:19 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

infinities and zeros are key to understanding the machinery of nature,

but when we try to deal with them we encounter the illogical.

the history of the concept of zero is fascinating; because of its philosophical properties,

it clashed with the fundamentals of western philosophy,

and stunted the broadening of science, math, and the calendar.

to the philosopher zero may be a concept, and to the mathematician it may be a number to signify an
empty value, but in both realms it is a controversy of irrefutable proof.

to the Greeks, the universe was governed by shapes and ratios, and this was the key to understanding the universe.

it was thought that ratios controlled the whole universe, and the idea that an irrational number existed,

meant the perfect ordered logical beauty of the universe was contaminated.

Newton was able to ignore the illogic caused by zero,

but the logical framework of quantum theory and relativity can be torn apart by zero.

from the vacuum of space, to the quantum foam of virtual particles, and a fabric filled with infinite zero-point energy,

the universe says zero cannot be ignored - it's power is infinite.


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OfflineTripsten
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Re: Mathematical Philosophies ? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26192545 - 09/16/19 06:54 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

Well put


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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Mathematical Philosophies ? [Re: Tripsten]
    #26195160 - 09/18/19 07:23 AM (4 years, 4 months ago)

Math is philosophy albeit the most formal. Take a look at Kurt Gödel's incompleteness theorem (he also has an interesting ontological argument). I have a very basic understanding of it, but it completely changed my understanding of mathematics (in many instances, it is inconsistent and unprovable)


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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (09/18/19 07:24 AM)


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OfflineTripsten
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Re: Mathematical Philosophies ? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26195233 - 09/18/19 08:09 AM (4 years, 4 months ago)

Interesting, I think i will give that a look
What do you feel math is personally ?


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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: Mathematical Philosophies ? [Re: Tripsten]
    #26196508 - 09/18/19 09:01 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

Most explanations (consciousness, reality, etc.)depend on a basis of mathematical understanding (formal). As in, is there anyway knowledge humans own,  that does not relate to mathematics? If someone has one, please give me an example.

And yet, I would assume most of us have experienced something that defies words/senses. Could this be un- mathematical?


Edited by SirTripAlot (09/18/19 09:02 PM)


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OfflineTripsten
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Re: Mathematical Philosophies ? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26196928 - 09/19/19 07:08 AM (4 years, 4 months ago)

Well that’s where Mathematical realism has a case opposed to formalism in my mind. ( I lean towards Realism / light Platonism in some ways although I’m not sure how I feel about locations and forms yet )
Is because while you ARE correct most thing humans do or know is related in some way to math.
However I don’t think that that was 100% intentional either.
Some or a lot of  those practices and knowledge simply has math with in it.

And then I think of certain bizarre mathematical phenomena, the most known being the Fibonacci Sequence and it’s appearance in nature, and that makes me wonder as well.

I, for right now, feel I agree with the Realist position that we didn’t necessarily invent math and more discovered it, because I believe intelligent beings would as well. That if another intelligent race existed their math would likely be similar to ours.


Edited by Tripsten (09/19/19 07:10 AM)


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Invisiblewolfiewolfie
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Re: Mathematical Philosophies ? [Re: Tripsten]
    #26197450 - 09/19/19 01:25 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

In an attempt to introduce a different perspective, math can be though of as a form of symbolism.

Symbolism is the use of symbols to reference or signify ideas and qualities, by giving them symbolic meanings that are different from their literal sense.

Using this framework, the more traditional image/picture based symbols are simply replaced with numbers while maintaining the original purpose and function of the former.

Symbolism is generally an object representing another, to give an entirely different meaning that is much deeper and more significant. In the case of mathematics, numbers, especially when combined into equations, are also used to represent things in a way that can give an entirely different meaning that is much deeper and more significant.

I'll stop here for now, however I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on such a perspective.


--------------------


The only reason why T-rex's can't walk backwards is because they're extinct, which perfectly explains why there are no headaches in the rainforest; The parrots eat 'em all.

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Mathematical Philosophies ? [Re: wolfiewolfie]
    #26197467 - 09/19/19 01:37 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

You make some excellent points, but it is my understanding that some forms of mathematics are very far divorced from actual quantities. Math is more deeply the study of relationships than the study of numbers. Arithmetic, algebra and calculus involve the use of numbers, but the latter two are much more complicated than that. And things like topology or game theory really have very little to do with numbers at all. You never said this wasn't the case, though, and I think your ideas are good ones.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineTripsten
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Re: Mathematical Philosophies ? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26197781 - 09/19/19 04:16 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

Indeed
And not to mention
In my mind that form of symbolism while true
Is true in a similar sense of words in language
While I say water and my friend C says Agua,
Two different words and two different symbols for a real thing
However water does indeed exist in nature

However I’m glad you bring that up as it allow me the opportunity to state that I don’t believe the actual character “3” to exist outside the human mind , but what that character represents as you said , indeed does


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OfflineTripsten
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Re: Mathematical Philosophies ? [Re: Tripsten]
    #26197783 - 09/19/19 04:18 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

And same with other mathematical objects

At the start of this thread I didn’t really lean towards mathematical realism , but I’m starting to


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Invisiblewolfiewolfie
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Re: Mathematical Philosophies ? [Re: Tripsten]
    #26197788 - 09/19/19 04:20 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Tripsten said:
I don’t believe the actual character “3” to exist outside the human mind




Can you please elaborate on this? You have both my attention and curiosity


--------------------


The only reason why T-rex's can't walk backwards is because they're extinct, which perfectly explains why there are no headaches in the rainforest; The parrots eat 'em all.

My Drawings


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OfflineTripsten
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Re: Mathematical Philosophies ? [Re: wolfiewolfie]
    #26197845 - 09/19/19 04:53 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

Well “3”
The symbol
Like if you drew the number 3 , of course like the word water is just a human made symbol
However I believe what “water” and “3” represent indeed exists in natural phenomena.
Although numbers are kind of a weird example for this and I would rather default back to the Fibonacci sequence and it’s appearance in nature .

To add to this I would say , that another advanced species would indeed be able to discover the Fibonacci sequence in natural phenomena and will call or whatever they will as well


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OfflineTripsten
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Re: Mathematical Philosophies ? [Re: Tripsten]
    #26197849 - 09/19/19 04:54 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

Like Yin and Yang and duality as terms aren’t in the the universes structure , but what those terms represent ( in my mind at least ) is,


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OfflineTripsten
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Re: Mathematical Philosophies ? [Re: Tripsten]
    #26197869 - 09/19/19 04:59 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

I guess it also depends how or views the realism of mind
It’s imorotant to remember imagination is also a physical phenomena
And in the same way the universe made us
It made those symbols
For it just keeps expanding on itself
Not sure how I feel about what I just stated
But it can’t be fully ignored as I know many who see it that way


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Invisiblewolfiewolfie
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Re: Mathematical Philosophies ? [Re: Tripsten]
    #26197874 - 09/19/19 05:01 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

When you say you don’t believe the actual character “3” exists outside the human mind, are you insinuating that 1,2,4,5,6,7,8,9 DO exist outside the mind and it is only specifically '3' that does not or were you using '3' as an example of a numerical symbol (ie. The same applies for all)


--------------------


The only reason why T-rex's can't walk backwards is because they're extinct, which perfectly explains why there are no headaches in the rainforest; The parrots eat 'em all.

My Drawings


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OfflineTripsten
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Re: Mathematical Philosophies ? [Re: wolfiewolfie]
    #26197889 - 09/19/19 05:06 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

No , again the symbol “3”
Like the actual shape we use to express three objects , is a human symbol
But that which that symbol represents is real


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Invisiblewolfiewolfie
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Re: Mathematical Philosophies ? [Re: Tripsten]
    #26197901 - 09/19/19 05:11 PM (4 years, 4 months ago)

Ahhh yep I understand what you are saying now. The same concept applies to every single character I'm typing out right now? Although every letter is man made, they reference things in reality/nature.


--------------------


The only reason why T-rex's can't walk backwards is because they're extinct, which perfectly explains why there are no headaches in the rainforest; The parrots eat 'em all.

My Drawings


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