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InvisibleEdame
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Troops accused of prisoner abuse (warning: images within)
    #2617806 - 04/29/04 07:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

So much for hearts and minds. I find their excuses about not being given any 'rules' particularly pathetic, so much for common sense (emphasis mine).

Quote:

U.S. reservists accused of prisoner abuse
Six from Maryland unit are seen in photographs mistreating Iraqi detainees


By Tom Bowman and Ariel Sabar
Sun National Staff

April 29, 2004

WASHINGTON -- Six Army reservists shown in graphic photos mistreating and humiliating Iraqi prisoners at a sprawling prison west of Baghdad are assigned to the 372nd Military Police Company based in Cumberland, family members and officials said last night.

In a story that aired last night, CBS's 60 Minutes II aired a series of pictures showing naked Iraqi prisoners who were forced to huddle in a pyramid or simulate sex acts with other prisoners. The pictures showed laughing male and female U.S. soldiers, some giving the thumbs-up sign, and a few were recognized by their Western Maryland neighbors.

In another picture, a hooded prisoner standing on a box appears to be wired to electrodes. The Army told the news program that the prisoner believed he would be electrocuted if he fell off the box.

The six reservists could be court-martialed. The New York Times says three of the six reported last month to be facing preliminary charges have been recommended for court-martial trials. According to the newspaper, a senior Pentagon official said late last night that the three have finished the military equivalent of a grand jury proceeding.

Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, a military spokesman in Iraq, told 60 Minutes II that he was "appalled" by the conduct displayed in the photos.

"These are our fellow soldiers," he said. "These are the people we work with every day, and they represent us. They wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down."

Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, a member of the 372nd who is among those facing charges, including assaulting prisoners, said he is pleading not guilty. He told CBS that the way the Army ran the Abu Ghraib prison led to the abuse.

"We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things ... like rules and regulations," said Frederick, in a phone call with CBS from Baghdad. "And it just wasn't happening."

Master Sgt. Mark Van Kirk, a spokesman for the 372nd, which sent more than 150 soldiers to Iraq, was asked last night if the soldiers charged are from the unit. "I understand some of them are," said Van Kirk, declining further comment.

Linda Comer, the Family Readiness Coordinator for the unit, confirmed that Frederick was a member of the 372nd and said others were as well. After watching the CBS story last night, she said, "It's sort of overwhelming. I don't know what it all means. I'm sure it's a black mark on the unit." Still, she said, "Do I know the unit did it? Not from the pictures."

She said her husband, Sgt. 1st Class Keith Comer, was at the prison for a time but was not among those charged. She said her husband told her nothing of the charges, but word spread quickly among the military families.

A Cumberland woman with a relative in the unit said that all six soldiers were from the 372nd, based in Cresaptown, a few miles southwest of Cumberland. She said that at least a few of the six lived in or around Cumberland, a small city surrounded by mountains in rural Western Maryland.

She said that the 372nd had been attached to the 800th Military Police Brigade, based in Uniondale, N.Y., which was in command of soldiers from various units guarding Abu Ghraib prison.

"A lot of us have known about the arrests and the court-martial, but everyone knew to keep their mouths shut," said the woman, who spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of hurting her relative's military career.

She said that some local families had hoped that early reports mentioning only the 800th military police unit would keep reporters from discovering its connection to the 372nd. "It only takes one person to spoil the reputation of the whole" unit, she said of the desire to keep the connection secret.

She said that one soldier whose picture was on 60 Minutes II last night -- giving a thumbs-up sign next to an Iraqi prisoner -- had her photo displayed at a local Wal-Mart as part of a Veterans Day display.

In January, the top ground commander in Iraq, Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, ordered a criminal investigation into the allegations that the Iraqi detainees had been abused. A senior Pentagon official said authorities had been alerted in the past few days to the possible abuse of detainees and were taking the allegations "very seriously."

Last month, the Army announced that 17 soldiers in Iraq, including a brigadier general, had been removed from duty after charges of mistreating Iraqi prisoners, although there were no details of the courts-martial. Army officials identified her as Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinski, the commander of the 800th Brigade, according to the Associated Press.

The Army said that all those facing courts-martial are in Iraq, though there were no details on the status of their cases.

Frederick, identified in the broadcast as a corrections officer from Virginia, sent letters and e-mail messages home that offer clues to problems at the prison, according to 60 Minutes II.

He wrote that he was helping the interrogators: "Military intelligence has encouraged and told us 'Great job.'"

"They usually don't allow others to watch them interrogate. But since they like the way I run the prison, they have made an exception,"
said one excerpt.

"We help getting them to talk with the way we handle them," said another. "We've had a very high rate with our style of getting them to break. They usually end up breaking within hours."

Gary Myers, an attorney defending Frederick, told 60 Minutes II that the soldiers should never have been charged, because of the failure of commanders to provide proper training and standards.

"The elixir of power, the elixir of believing that you're helping the CIA, for God's sake, when you're from a small town in Virginia, that's intoxicating," said Myers. "And so, good guys sometimes do things believing that they are being of assistance and helping a just cause."

Frederick told CBS he didn't see a copy of the Geneva Conventions' rules for handling prisoners of war until after he was charged.

Frederick said far too few soldiers were on hand for the number of prisoners: "There was, when I left, there was over 900. And there was only five soldiers, plus two noncommissioned officers, in charge for those 900 -- over 900 inmates."

Kimmitt, the military spokesman, was asked by CBS about understaffing.

"That doesn't condone individual acts of criminal behavior no matter how tired we are," he said.

The 372nd had been scheduled to return home beginning this month after a year in Iraq but was ordered to remain in the country for up to three months to provide security for military and civilian convoys.

Since arriving in Iraq last spring, the reservists performed law enforcement duties around the city of Hillah for six months before dividing into three sections to provide escort duty, military police work around Baghdad and security at Abu Ghraib prison west of Baghdad. Officials were uncertain where the 372nd would be based for its convoy duty.

Sun staff writer Lynn Anderson and researcher Paul McCardell contributed to this article.









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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,805
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Re: Troops accused of prisoner abuse (warning: images within) [Re: Edame]
    #2617813 - 04/29/04 07:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Throw them (unarmed) in with the prisoners.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Troops accused of prisoner abuse (warning: images within) [Re: Edame]
    #2617851 - 04/29/04 07:47 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Those two seem to really enjoy their work. That must be because their doing "the Lord's work" for GWB.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineViveka
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Re: Troops accused of prisoner abuse (warning: images within) [Re: Edame]
    #2617869 - 04/29/04 07:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

HOLY SHIT!  That's the most twisted thing i've seen in awhile!

Reminds me of last night's South Park.  With the pile of rednecks buttsexin' it up.

Those pics are really, really messed up!  This should be a huge scandal....Jesus....

*in redneck twang*
"And I'm prooouuud to be an Americaaaaan, where at least i know i'm freeeeeeee.......to force naked Iraqi prisoners to huddle in a pyramid and simulate sex acts with other prisoners......"      :oogle:


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Troops accused of prisoner abuse (warning: images within) [Re: Edame]
    #2617928 - 04/29/04 08:04 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Some of those prisoners probably deserve to be treated like that. Some may not.


Either way, U.S. armed forces can not be allowed to behave that way. Anyone involved, or who were complicit in allowing it to happen should be punished severely.


--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Troops accused of prisoner abuse (warning: images within) [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2618061 - 04/29/04 08:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

These two are a disgrace to an honorable mission. The difference between us and them(Baathists) is that their behaviour will not be encouraged, tolerated or covered up.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Troops accused of prisoner abuse (warning: images within [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2618879 - 04/29/04 11:37 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

That is disturbing. Those officers should be court marshalled, even if those prisoners were terrorists and deserved it. That is not how US troops should treat their captives

However, notice before any of this was made public the unit was already being tried by the military. The release of the photo wasn't really necessary as those officers are already facing justice.

I'm sure lots of people will view this as indisputable proof that all American soldiers engage in this type of thing. That is certainly not the case. Those soldiers are in no way representitive of the majority in the US armed forces. Sadly, I think the point of this posting was to imply something of that sort.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: Troops accused of prisoner abuse (warning: images within [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2620412 - 04/30/04 10:29 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

It's exactly as Divided Sky said. These two dumbasses are an exception to the rule. I am confident that they will be punished severely and closer attention will be paid to those who are guarding prisoners.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Troops accused of prisoner abuse (warning: images within [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2621366 - 04/30/04 02:29 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Those soldiers are in no way representitive of the majority in the US armed forces. Sadly, I think the point of this posting was to imply something of that sort.

Sadly, I figured that at least one member of this board would try to turn this back on me.

While I'm in no way suggesting that all American soldiers act as disgracefully as this, it does look to me like part of a wider issue (Amnesty International said "Our extensive research in Iraq suggests that this is not an isolated incident."). As I pointed out a while back, even British commanders (whose troops have also been found abusing prisoners) were noting that US forces seem to treat Iraqis as 'untermenschen' (sub-humans). The events (which I currently view as atrocities) in Fallujah, with an estimated death toll of 600+ civilians in retaliation for the deaths of 4 private contractors, seem to strengthen this view.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Offlinepsikooz
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Re: Troops accused of prisoner abuse (warning: images within [Re: Edame]
    #2621417 - 04/30/04 02:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

the lord? its the devil.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Troops accused of prisoner abuse (warning: images within [Re: Edame]
    #2622473 - 04/30/04 06:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

If they believe that these people were people that commited atrocities against their own people, then it is unsurprising that they see them that way.

It's just not their place to make that judgement, or dispense punishment for those crimes.

If the claim is that they see all Iraqis as "untermenschen", then I highly doubt that. There might be a few soldiers like that, but it is very unlikely that most of the soldiers feel that way.


--------------------


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OfflineMetaShroom
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Re: Troops accused of prisoner abuse (warning: images within [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2622490 - 04/30/04 06:17 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)



Edited by MetaShroom (04/30/04 06:22 PM)


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Troops accused of prisoner abuse (warning: images within [Re: MetaShroom]
    #2622501 - 04/30/04 06:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Nevermind now it does.


--------------------


Edited by Baby_Hitler (04/30/04 06:20 PM)


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Troops accused of prisoner abuse (warning: images within [Re: Edame]
    #2622531 - 04/30/04 06:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Edame said:

Sadly, I figured that at least one member of this board would try to turn this back on me.





Sorry. I really don't mean to be picking on you but it does seem that this article falls into a more general overarching theme of your posts. I don't take issue with your post but rather the generalizing implications of it in combination with your other posts.

By the way, your claim about the 600 civilians killed in Fallujah is false. There is no way that somehow the army was targeting ONLY civilians. Also, the same hospital later retracted the claim saying he was under pressure from insurgents and about 80% of the dead were actually terrorists.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Troops accused of prisoner abuse (warning: images within [Re: MetaShroom]
    #2622622 - 04/30/04 06:40 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Jesus.. :nonono:

These stories remind me of this.

Edit:
Divided_Sky:  That's why I said it was an estimated figure.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Edited by Edame (04/30/04 06:44 PM)


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InvisibleLazerouth
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Re: Troops accused of prisoner abuse (warning: images within) [Re: Edame]
    #2627685 - 05/02/04 01:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

ive seen alot of these pictures. it amazes me how much the asian guy loves pointing at dicks.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Troops accused of prisoner abuse (warning: images within [Re: Lazerouth]
    #2628253 - 05/02/04 04:37 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

She is actually a woman.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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Offlined33p
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Re: Troops accused of prisoner abuse (warning: images within [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2628673 - 05/02/04 07:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

That right there is good comedy.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Troops accused of prisoner abuse (warning: images within [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2628674 - 05/02/04 07:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Now that I think about it, I have to question the ethics of leaking such photographs to the press. There already was an investigation and several court marshalls regarding the case happening when the pictures were released.
Considering that justice was going to be done either way it seems grossly irresponsible to publish those pictures as it effectively slanders coalition forces, enrages arabs, and provides further propaganda for insurgents and left-wing Americans and Europeans. Absolutely nothing positive has come of the publication, rather the situation has been made alot worse.
It seems those in the press have no sense of responsibility for the effect their media has on world affairs.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Troops accused of prisoner abuse (warning: images within [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #2628685 - 05/02/04 07:35 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Americans need to know what is going on over there. I see nothing unethical about reporting the truth.


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