Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Mushroom-Hut Liquid Cultures   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   MagicBag.co Certified Organic All-In-One Grow Bags

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
Half grown cakes - OK to use? source of the bacteria?
    #26163475 -

Hi,

every now and then my PF TEK BRF jars have an area in them where mycelium doesn't grow.
The substrate in that area turns a little darker and has unhealthy acidic smell.
I looked it up on Shroomery and found it to be caused by bacteria.

The last batch of about a dozen jars was completely ruined because of this.
Next time I intend to utilize a pressure cooker.


Two questions though:


  • 1. Do you think this was caused by:

    (a) insufficient sterilization of the jars? (90 minutes of steam sterilization in regular pot)

    - or rather by -

    (b) LC syringes (self made) having grown bacteria? (stored in fridge) These very syringes produced some nice healthy cakes a few weeks ago, but the latest batch was completely ruined, so I'm thinking maybe bacteria could have grown in the LC in the meantime?


  • 2. This happened to me many times and in most cases I could still get at least 1/2 of cake with a healthy looking mycelium that grew fine mushrooms. I simply washed away the remaining substrate and proceeded with dunk & roll as usual.

    When I read now it's caused by bacteria, I tend to freak out and throw the entire cake away.
    On the other hand, the remaining mycelium looks OK and seems to produce fine, healthy mushrooms. Do you think it's OK to use such cakes?



Thank you! :-)

Edited by Colibrii (09/01/19 07:31 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Half grown cakes - OK to use? source of the bacteria? [Re: Colibrii]
    #26163620 -

Definitely get a pressure cooker. Steaming it in a water bath is not the same thing. Do you have agar? You could put your lc to agar to make sure it’s clean. Just for reassurance

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Half grown cakes - OK to use? source of the bacteria? [Re: Markawill30]
    #26163637 -

Markawill30 said:
Definitely get a pressure cooker. Steaming it in a water bath is not the same thing. Do you have agar? You could put your lc to agar to make sure it’s clean. Just for reassurance


Sterilization is sterilization whether it's a PC or a steamer bro

How was the LC made? Was the syringe stored with a syringe cap on it or a needle? How long did you steam the jars for?


--------------------
Bods Easy AF Oat Prep Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24126032

Pastywhytes No Pour Agar Tek (PastyPlates)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19208976

Shaperdreamings Shoebox Assembly Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26009662

Down with the bourgeoisie and up with the proletariat

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Half grown cakes - OK to use? source of the bacteria? [Re: DnDRnD]
    #26163727 -

Markawill30 said:
Definitely get a pressure cooker. Steaming it in a water bath is not the same thing. Do you have agar? You could put your lc to agar to make sure it’s clean. Just for reassurance


Good point, thanks Markawill30. Never worked with agar, but I guess this would be probably much easier method to check the syringes, compared to making new BRF cake.


DnDRnD said:
How was the LC made? Was the syringe stored with a syringe cap on it or a needle?



Wanted to link the original post with the instructions that I followed, but it seems to be deleted.
It involved SAB, spore print, sterile syringe, flame source, erlenmeyer flask... Basically: transfer the spores into erlenmeyer flask inside SAB with sterile scalpel, then insert the syringe with needle on into the flask, pump the plunger a few times to spread the spores in liquid, then suck the liquid in.

I think it was a critical mistake to use regular water for LC instead of distilled one. Although I sterilized it, I think regular water provides much better environment for bacteria to breed in.

Quote:
DnDRnD said:How long did you steam the jars for?


90 minues, each jar fully wrapped in aluminium foil. Is it a good idea? Maybe steam cannot enter it well enough.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Half grown cakes - OK to use? source of the bacteria? [Re: DnDRnD] * 1
    #26163766 -

DnDRnD said:
Markawill30 said:
Definitely get a pressure cooker. Steaming it in a water bath is not the same thing. Do you have agar? You could put your lc to agar to make sure it’s clean. Just for reassurance


Sterilization is sterilization whether it's a PC or a steamer bro

How was the LC made? Was the syringe stored with a syringe cap on it or a needle? How long did you steam the jars for?


That is the new record for dumbest shit ever said. 

The pressure of a PC is what kills every little bitty spore or organism.

BRO.


--------------------

Edited by SawCeeJack (09/01/19 12:13 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Half grown cakes - OK to use? source of the bacteria? [Re: SawCeeJack]
    #26163772 -

I totally agree. Dude has no idea what he is talking about.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Half grown cakes - OK to use? source of the bacteria? [Re: SawCeeJack]
    #26163795 -

AtmozFear said:
DnDRnD said:
Markawill30 said:
Definitely get a pressure cooker. Steaming it in a water bath is not the same thing. Do you have agar? You could put your lc to agar to make sure it’s clean. Just for reassurance


Sterilization is sterilization whether it's a PC or a steamer bro

How was the LC made? Was the syringe stored with a syringe cap on it or a needle? How long did you steam the jars for?


That is the new record for dumbest shit ever said. 

The pressure of a PC is what kills every little bitty spore or organism.

BRO.


Hahahaha when it's BRF jars steam sterilization is fine and works as long as you steam for 90 minutes

In a PC brf jars only take 60 minutes, due to the higher pressure causing the STEAM to be a higher temperature

The STEAM is what sterilizes the Pressure of a PC just causes the steam to be a higher temperature thus reducing time to achieve full sterilization.

You can steam sterilize grains for 8 hours at 0 PSI, the only difference pressure makes is time on sterilization

So let me rephrase my comment for you "steam sterilization at 0 PSI for 90 minutes is exactly the same sterilization as steam sterilization at 15 PSI for 60 minutes"

BRO

Also so it sounds like you just made a spore syringe not an LC, LC has nutrients in it and is made by adding agar into a nutrient broth, so was there any nutrients in it or just water and spores?


--------------------
Bods Easy AF Oat Prep Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24126032

Pastywhytes No Pour Agar Tek (PastyPlates)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19208976

Shaperdreamings Shoebox Assembly Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26009662

Down with the bourgeoisie and up with the proletariat

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Half grown cakes - OK to use? source of the bacteria? [Re: Markawill30]
    #26163798 -

AtmozFear said:
DnDRnD said:
Markawill30 said:
Definitely get a pressure cooker. Steaming it in a water bath is not the same thing. Do you have agar? You could put your lc to agar to make sure it’s clean. Just for reassurance


Sterilization is sterilization whether it's a PC or a steamer bro

How was the LC made? Was the syringe stored with a syringe cap on it or a needle? How long did you steam the jars for?


That is the new record for dumbest shit ever said. 

The pressure of a PC is what kills every little bitty spore or organism.

BRO.


People have been making PF jars with no PC for some time, CHIEF. I just read 1/2 pint jars are steamed in a pot with a lid for 90-120 minutes. Some say to do three cycles over a 24 hour period, allowing jars to cool between each cycle.

Quart jars of grain are steamed for 8 hours, yikes.

And I believe it's heat that kills things, not pressure. Pressure in a PC is there to get heat to the center of jars much faster than just steaming in a pot, hence a 8 hour steam cycle compared to a 90-120 minute, ~15psi PC cycle. :shrug:


--------------------
The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF

This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited,  but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders

https://www.icandecide.org/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Half grown cakes - OK to use? source of the bacteria? [Re: HamHead]
    #26163801 -

HamHead said:
AtmozFear said:
DnDRnD said:
Markawill30 said:
Definitely get a pressure cooker. Steaming it in a water bath is not the same thing. Do you have agar? You could put your lc to agar to make sure it’s clean. Just for reassurance


Sterilization is sterilization whether it's a PC or a steamer bro

How was the LC made? Was the syringe stored with a syringe cap on it or a needle? How long did you steam the jars for?


That is the new record for dumbest shit ever said. 

The pressure of a PC is what kills every little bitty spore or organism.

BRO.


People have been making PF jars with no PC for some time, CHIEF. I just read 1/2 pint jars are steamed in a pot with a lid for 90-120 minutes. Some say to do three cycles over a 24 hour period, allowing jars to cool between each cycle.

Quart jars of grain are steamed for 8 hours, yikes.

And I believe it's heat that kills things, not pressure. Pressure in a PC is there to get heat to the center of jars much faster than just steaming in a pot, hence a 8 hour steam cycle compared to a 90-120 minute, ~15psi PC cycle. :shrug:


:whathesaid:


--------------------
Bods Easy AF Oat Prep Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24126032

Pastywhytes No Pour Agar Tek (PastyPlates)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19208976

Shaperdreamings Shoebox Assembly Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26009662

Down with the bourgeoisie and up with the proletariat

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Half grown cakes - OK to use? source of the bacteria? [Re: DnDRnD]
    #26163872 -

Lol 
Sterilization of jars occurs through heat transfer into those jars.  Once the heat is inside it causes water that contaminates are in or near to reach a point too hot for them to survive, normally causing important proteins to fall apart and enzymes to break down, as well as outright cell destruction.  For most organisms this cell death occurs at much lower temperatures than 212F but those temperatures must reach the actual organism to be effective.

At normal atmosphere water boils at 212F, putting a cap on how hot you can get your jars.  Glass is insulating and conducts heat slowly, and since the water would boil away if it reached far above 212F the grains inside your jar are almost certainly being exposed to less then 212F.  The airpockets and plant cells provide insulation, further slowing heat transfer.  A quick steam boil on grain jars won’t allow the centers to reach a high enough temp to kill contams.

So the three options are to either cook for a longer time, cook at a higher temperature or cook a smaller batch.

Pressure cookers pick the second option, BRF kinda the third.  At 15PSI the water now boils at 250F  the glass jars can now reach significantly above 212F without causing the water next to them to burst into steam and now transfer a lot more heat to the grain inside.  No one picks the first option as generally steaming grain jars for 8+ hours cooks the hell out of the grain.

BRF jars are designed specifically for 212F steam sterilization by grinding and mixing everything in a moist medium to small sized cake allowing for faster heat transfer throughout the inside of the jar.

Just the same grain can be sterilized extremely fast by just dumping it into a pot of water and boiling it for 45 min, but it won’t really be grain mushies want to colonize.

———
To the question, on your next run make two extra jars.  One ziplock bag after the sterilization run (and it cools), the other act like you were inoccing it but just don’t squirt any liquid, cap and place with those you did inoc.  Note it as a control so you don’t get confused as to why it’s showing no growth.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Half grown cakes - OK to use? source of the bacteria? [Re: StygianKnight]
    #26163904 -

Now we're gettin' somewhere. Great info.

:thaaannks:


--------------------
The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF

This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited,  but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders

https://www.icandecide.org/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Half grown cakes - OK to use? source of the bacteria? [Re: DnDRnD]
    #26164327 -

You didn't say "BRF jars"... you were speaking generally.  Or I thought you were speaking generally.


--------------------

Edited by SawCeeJack (09/01/19 07:20 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Half grown cakes - OK to use? source of the bacteria? [Re: SawCeeJack] * 1
    #26164389 -

AtmozFear said:
You didn't say "BRF jars"... you were speaking generally.  Or I thought you were speaking generally.


Sterilization IS sterilization whether BRF, or grains, doesn't matter


--------------------
Bods Easy AF Oat Prep Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24126032

Pastywhytes No Pour Agar Tek (PastyPlates)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19208976

Shaperdreamings Shoebox Assembly Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26009662

Down with the bourgeoisie and up with the proletariat

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Half grown cakes - OK to use? source of the bacteria? [Re: DnDRnD]
    #26164396 -

Ya for brf cakes I don't notice any difference in contamination rates between steam and PC sterilization. All the PC does I believe is bring things up to desired temp faster.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Half grown cakes - OK to use? source of the bacteria? [Re: StygianKnight]
    #26164696 -

Thanks, StygianKnight. And in terms of safety (the second question) - do you think it is OK to use mycelium from these half grown cakes?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Half grown cakes - OK to use? source of the bacteria? [Re: Psyche delics]
    #26164700 -

Could be much moisture getting into your jars.  If the bacteria often happens at the bottom of the jar, check;

1. Fluff mix before jarring.  heavy mix creates dense moisture pockets for bacteria.

Jars could have moisture sneaking in during steaming.

2. Make sure water is below jar level.
3. tape holes and wrap top in tin foil.


--------------------
“I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity.” ― Edgar Allan Poe

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Half grown cakes - OK to use? source of the bacteria? [Re: pickle jar pete]
    #26164707 -

I literally have the data to prove that there is no difference when making BRF cakes.  Steam, with sufficient time, works just as well as a PC for BRF.

My hunch is your LC was tainted.


--------------------
:cuteshit: :growingweed:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Half grown cakes - OK to use? source of the bacteria? [Re: Colibrii]
    #26164740 -

ThePoopTree said:
I literally have the data to prove that there is no difference when making BRF cakes.  Steam, with sufficient time, works just as well as a PC for BRF.

My hunch is your LC was tainted.


Colibrii said:
Markawill30 said:
Definitely get a pressure cooker. Steaming it in a water bath is not the same thing. Do you have agar? You could put your lc to agar to make sure it’s clean. Just for reassurance


Good point, thanks Markawill30. Never worked with agar, but I guess this would be probably much easier method to check the syringes, compared to making new BRF cake.


DnDRnD said:
How was the LC made? Was the syringe stored with a syringe cap on it or a needle?



Wanted to link the original post with the instructions that I followed, but it seems to be deleted.
It involved SAB, spore print, sterile syringe, flame source, erlenmeyer flask... Basically: transfer the spores into erlenmeyer flask inside SAB with sterile scalpel, then insert the syringe with needle on into the flask, pump the plunger a few times to spread the spores in liquid, then suck the liquid in.

I think it was a critical mistake to use regular water for LC instead of distilled one. Although I sterilized it, I think regular water provides much better environment for bacteria to breed in.

Quote:
DnDRnD said:How long did you steam the jars for?


90 minues, each jar fully wrapped in aluminium foil. Is it a good idea? Maybe steam cannot enter it well enough.


Based off of that quote part there I think the "LC" was actually a spore syringe as no nutrients were mentioned at all :shrug:


--------------------
Bods Easy AF Oat Prep Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24126032

Pastywhytes No Pour Agar Tek (PastyPlates)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19208976

Shaperdreamings Shoebox Assembly Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26009662

Down with the bourgeoisie and up with the proletariat

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Half grown cakes - OK to use? source of the bacteria? [Re: DnDRnD]
    #26164748 -

Good catch.  Pictures would be more helpful in the future, OP.


--------------------
:cuteshit: :growingweed:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Half grown cakes - OK to use? source of the bacteria? [Re: DnDRnD]
    #26164772 -

Indeed, I meant spore syringes. No nutrients involved.
I thought LC to be the same thing as spore syringes. Sorry for the confusion.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Half grown cakes - OK to use? source of the bacteria? [Re: Colibrii]
    #26165057 -

Haha actually it's a pretty common confusion! Since its a spore syringe perhaps thats where some of the bacteria is coming from? Since spores arnt sterile perhaps some bacteria is tagging along


--------------------
Bods Easy AF Oat Prep Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24126032

Pastywhytes No Pour Agar Tek (PastyPlates)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19208976

Shaperdreamings Shoebox Assembly Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26009662

Down with the bourgeoisie and up with the proletariat

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Mushroom-Hut Liquid Cultures   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   MagicBag.co Certified Organic All-In-One Grow Bags

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Half Gallon Cake! Could this work? WakingUpLate 2,129 17 09/23/02 01:10 AM
by ellisdee625
* Mycelium only half grown Legoulash 693 5 09/08/02 02:51 AM
by Legoulash
* Quart cakes idea? LearyfanS 1,108 11 06/12/01 11:08 PM
by egolesss
* 30-40 half pints RedHead 2,286 6 02/05/02 01:12 PM
by RedHead
* Casing or Rice Cakes Phake_ld 1,578 4 10/27/01 12:54 PM
by Everlast
* Getting the most out of cakes. Smokemon 1,593 8 04/19/02 04:20 PM
by WakingUpLate
* Cakes blueing even before first flush?!?! bluefoot 3,591 8 05/01/02 02:10 PM
by cantankerous
* some questions for the flat cake teK michael_ahji 1,984 6 03/06/02 08:51 PM
by michael_ahji

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Shroomism, george castanza, RogerRabbit, veggie, mushboy, fahtster, the_chosen_one, LogicaL Chaos, 13shrooms, hamloaf, cronicr, Stipe-n Cap, Pastywhyte, bodhisatta, Tormato, Land Trout, A.k.a
250 topic views. 15 members, 1,454 guests and 120 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.042 seconds spending 0.014 seconds on 16 queries.