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OfflineOutsideOfMyMind
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: JohnRainy]
    #27559014 - 11/26/21 11:25 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

JohnRainy said:
I had a brief conversation with an American about this once.  Their beef was that if health insurance is funded by taxes, then what you get is people who take care of their health have to chip in for people who don't.

I guess that might be true in some circumstances.

Doesn't bother me none, society is just better when health insurance is automatically part of the system.  The universal public plan is cheaper anyways, like you said, and people who smoke and drink too much pay high taxes on their legal purchases of such things.

A 750ml bottle of hard stuff goes for about $25-$30.  A pack of smokes in BC is over 12 dollars and there are only 20 in a pack.

That tops up the healthcare funding some.



I can get a fifth a vodka for like 2 bucks dude. What the hell kind of liquer store are you going to??


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OfflineOutsideOfMyMind
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27559016 - 11/26/21 11:28 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
It’s insane to me how cheap TVs are nowadays. You can get an 80 inch UHD for less than a grand.



I remember 10 years ago or so when flat screen tv's were first introduced into the consumer market. You couldn't get one for less than a grand. NOW, I could go to walmart and get a 50 inch flat screen lcd for less than $200.

Commodity items DEvalue in price as time goes on.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27559136 - 11/27/21 03:50 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Or I could always watch 1 of 12 "news" channels tell me about the incredible right-left divide and the insurmountable partisan gridlock for the 100 millionth time but it's so much less entertaining once you realize there is only 1 party and political theater is as scripted as professional wrestling




On capitalism and war. Then people say all the other issues (the ones where the Democrats and Republicans are in conlict) are peripheral issues. But the people who say that are only white males. Am I wrong?


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27559230 - 11/27/21 07:38 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

We live in a white supremacist patriarchy so no you aren’t wrong, but it’s not like other groups have some explicit opposition to war and capitalism. It’s Plato’s Cave for most people, theyve lived in the “war and capitalism” box their entire lives and can’t fathom a system outside that. Even the millennials who swear that half of them love socialism only mean that they want the social safety net expanded.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27559235 - 11/27/21 07:48 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Or I could always watch 1 of 12 "news" channels tell me about the incredible right-left divide and the insurmountable partisan gridlock for the 100 millionth time but it's so much less entertaining once you realize there is only 1 party and political theater is as scripted as professional wrestling




On capitalism and war. Then people say all the other issues (the ones where the Democrats and Republicans are in conlict) are peripheral issues. But the people who say that are only white males. Am I wrong?




Maybe. Which issues do you mean, exactly?


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27559467 - 11/27/21 11:37 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

The issues that increased the acceptance of woman, nonwhites, gays, etc. They don't think the two parties are the same, because the Democratic party improved their lives. That's why racial minorities and gays vote Democrat. With women it's more conditional; the married ones may vote their husband's interests.

At any rate the Dem party caters to these groups because they are the base, especially with so many white working class men voting conservative now probably in response to the above which resulted in their loss of relative privilege.

The social contract with capitalism isn't on the table in the U.S. We can talk about it, but the party only pretends to talk about it. Until the Bernie's and the Squad have hundreds of members in power it will stay that which means it almost surely will stay that way.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27559682 - 11/27/21 03:16 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Yet here we are with the same social justice problems that have plagued us for...ever.  Once again, we're left to wonder if the Dems are comically inept or in collusion w/regard to maintaining the status quo. I don't see them taking any action whatsoever to codify choice rights into law, as an example. Certainly they've had time to develop a strategy in the intervening years since Roe v Wade, yet...

Redlining is illegal but here we are with black generational wealth about as low as it's been in the modern day. 

I agree with you insofar as demublicans are reasonably effective at portraying themselves as the party for women and minorities but I have my doubts about the sincerity or efficacy of their "efforts" in my lifetime.

But, hey, gay folks can enter into a contract with the state now(marriage), so that's something.

Maybe the civil rights era Dems were a bit better at getting things done but for as long as I can remember it's been nothing but collusion with the Reaganites, front to back, all the way down.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27560085 - 11/27/21 10:15 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Certainly they've had time to develop a strategy in the intervening years since Roe v Wade



Maybe not on the federal level. The republicans use the filibuster to control the debate on abortion.  It’s essentially against the law for the federal government to spend any money in the furtherance of abortion, and there has been no legislative opportunity to undo that law.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: koods]
    #27560524 - 11/28/21 09:41 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Oh, well, if there's been no opportunity then I guess that settles it.  Maybe someday, if we're all good little girls and boys, an opportunity will arise for legislators to legislate.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27562852 - 11/30/21 09:13 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Yet here we are with the same social justice problems that have plagued us for...ever.  Once again, we're left to wonder if the Dems are comically inept or in collusion w/regard to maintaining the status quo. I don't see them taking any action whatsoever to codify choice rights into law, as an example. Certainly they've had time to develop a strategy in the intervening years since Roe v Wade, yet...

Redlining is illegal but here we are with black generational wealth about as low as it's been in the modern day. 

I agree with you insofar as demublicans are reasonably effective at portraying themselves as the party for women and minorities but I have my doubts about the sincerity or efficacy of their "efforts" in my lifetime.

But, hey, gay folks can enter into a contract with the state now(marriage), so that's something.

Maybe the civil rights era Dems were a bit better at getting things done but for as long as I can remember it's been nothing but collusion with the Reaganites, front to back, all the way down.




Probably those who are not in collusion are somewhat more comically inept and vice versa. The truly evil Democrats may not be inept.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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InvisibleMycoWeek
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27576871 - 12/11/21 03:23 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

1. government are incompetent, they don't do more the more you give them.
2. it only works with monoculture small countries like Norway.
3. I don't want government to decide if I am too old, too sick to receive certain treatment. ie. if you got cancer and above certain age threshold, they ain't gonna treat you. This is how Canada is like.
4. I don't want to get taxed over 50%, i'd like to decide how I want to spend that money.
5. if medical mal-practice happened, I don't want government to decide a certain set of predetermined value for my life. Life is priceless in US, which is why insurance and medicine is so expensive.

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: MycoWeek] * 1
    #27576969 - 12/11/21 06:59 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Small as it applies to countries is a relative term. Both Norway and every other developed capitalist country in the world have socialized medicine. If we are right and they are wrong why do so many of them have higher per capita wealth and many other economically desirable indicators. If you have a lot of money you will subsidize others with healthcare for all, and everyone else benefits.

I get good Blue Cross coverage for $20 a week which is great, but that could be gone next week; COBRA is expensive, and only covers one year. Then an individual policy costs a lot more. If you have a lot of money your argument makes sense for your self interest. If you don't have a lot of money you are arguing for rich people's self interest. Maybe you're young and you think you will be lucky. Every other 'civilized' country doesn't leave it to luck.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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InvisibleMycoWeek
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27577269 - 12/11/21 12:17 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Small as it applies to countries is a relative term. Both Norway and every other developed capitalist country in the world have socialized medicine. If we are right and they are wrong why do so many of them have higher per capita wealth and many other economically desirable indicators. If you have a lot of money you will subsidize others with healthcare for all, and everyone else benefits.





small is not a relative term, it means it's about the size of one of our smaller states, and less than 10 million population. In case of Norway, they only have 5.6 million people, where California along got close to 40 million.

They have higher per capita income for the same reason, because they are a small monoculture country, where everyone think and behaves pretty much the same.  Everyone is OK with paying insane income taxes, but having everything taken care of.

it's great it works for them, but it simply won't work nearly as good for a giant country with 300+ million people from all over the world.  When it's this big and diverse, government are not capable of handling it.  after seeing them handling this whole COVID thing, are you really comfortable having those buffoons handling your health care with no competition?

Every developed country got it's pros and cons, no one is perfect, and you can't just pick and choose which element from that system, and apply it to a different country with completely different cultural make up and geography.

it's like you love sport cars for it's look and handle, but you want the mini van cargo capacity, it simply just doesn't work.

I was born and raised in Taiwan, and they have universal health care system, and the program is almost bankrupt.  Another down side is, since the government is paying it, they set the amount of money doctors get paid, and require them to see certain amount of patients everyday. Result is overworked and underpaid doctors, and no one wanted to get into medicine because it's simply not worth the effort.  The island is overflown with cosmetic surgeons, because that's the only segment where they can make money and not limited by government rules.

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Offlinekoods
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27577631 - 12/11/21 04:15 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Small as it applies to countries is a relative term. Both Norway and every other developed capitalist country in the world have socialized medicine. If we are right and they are wrong why do so many of them have higher per capita wealth and many other economically desirable indicators. If you have a lot of money you will subsidize others with healthcare for all, and everyone else benefits.





Norway’s sovereign wealth pension fund is worth $1.5 trillion, or $250,000 per person. Most of that wealth is due to the socialist state owned petroleum company.

Quote:

They have higher per capita income for the same reason, because they are a small monoculture country, where everyone think and behaves pretty much the same.




Norway has 16.8% foreign born population. The US is 13.8%

Quote:

Another down side is, since the government is paying it, they set the amount of money doctors get paid, and require them to see certain amount of patients everyday



The exact same thing happens with our private insurance system. A doctor that accepts an insurance plan has agreed to set fees and is required to accept a minimum number of patients on that plan. Most primary care physicians in this country have over 3,000 patients under their care.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (12/11/21 04:27 PM)

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OfflinePatlal
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: MycoWeek] * 3
    #27577743 - 12/11/21 05:44 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MycoWeek said:
1. government are incompetent, they don't do more the more you give them.
2. it only works with monoculture small countries like Norway.
3. I don't want government to decide if I am too old, too sick to receive certain treatment. ie. if you got cancer and above certain age threshold, they ain't gonna treat you. This is how Canada is like.
4. I don't want to get taxed over 50%, i'd like to decide how I want to spend that money.
5. if medical mal-practice happened, I don't want government to decide a certain set of predetermined value for my life. Life is priceless in US, which is why insurance and medicine is so expensive.




1. Yes government are incompetence but their imcompetence will cost you less than what the corporate profit will cost you

2. China has universal healthcare and their population is 1.5 billion

3. In Canada you will recieve the full range of healthcare you need no matter how old or how sick you are.  How grossly misinformed are you to even mention that we let our people die.

4. Right now you decide to spend several hundred if not thousanmds in health insurance.  That money would stay in your bank account.  Like I said earlier, private profits cost you more right now than what you would pay in taxes to fund universal health care

5. If there's medical malpractice than you sue and if you win you can get paid millions.  Who the fuck taught you that hospitals would stop treating for any reason at all???  Insurance and medicine is expensive because corporation take a profit off healing you.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Patlal]
    #27577868 - 12/11/21 07:36 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

I've noticed that over 95% of Canadians have good things to say about their healthcare system, and Americans opposed to healthcare for all keep providing anecdotes about the Canadian system to show why we shouldn't have something like that. They have to cherrypick these stories from the small minority of Canadians who don't like their healthcare.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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OfflinePatlal
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27579068 - 12/12/21 06:38 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
I've noticed that over 95% of Canadians have good things to say about their healthcare system, and Americans opposed to healthcare for all keep providing anecdotes about the Canadian system to show why we shouldn't have something like that. They have to cherrypick these stories from the small minority of Canadians who don't like their healthcare.




There are flaws like anything else.  But for someone to suggest that our healthcare system chooses who gets treated or not based on age and type of disease is disturbing at best.  Who the hell would allow doctors to choose who lives and who dies?  Everybody who has a medical issue get treated for as long as it takes.

Which American group is claiming that Canada kills its own citizens BTW?:


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InvisibleMycoWeek
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Patlal]
    #27579082 - 12/12/21 06:48 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
I've noticed that over 95% of Canadians have good things to say about their healthcare system, and Americans opposed to healthcare for all keep providing anecdotes about the Canadian system to show why we shouldn't have something like that. They have to cherrypick these stories from the small minority of Canadians who don't like their healthcare.




There are flaws like anything else.  But for someone to suggest that our healthcare system chooses who gets treated or not based on age and type of disease is disturbing at best.  Who the hell would allow doctors to choose who lives and who dies?  Everybody who has a medical issue get treated for as long as it takes.

Which American group is claiming that Canada kills its own citizens BTW?:




your whole country only got the same amount of people as one of state California, which makes it possible to have a universal health care system.

I have plenty of co-workers who are Canadian citizen, and I've heard it on more than one account age is a factor for cancer patient to receive treatment or not.

Also, plenty of Canadian citizen come to US for emergent medical treatment, because the waiting line is too long in Canada.

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InvisibleMycoWeek
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Patlal]
    #27579092 - 12/12/21 06:56 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Quote:

MycoWeek said:
1. government are incompetent, they don't do more the more you give them.
2. it only works with monoculture small countries like Norway.
3. I don't want government to decide if I am too old, too sick to receive certain treatment. ie. if you got cancer and above certain age threshold, they ain't gonna treat you. This is how Canada is like.
4. I don't want to get taxed over 50%, i'd like to decide how I want to spend that money.
5. if medical mal-practice happened, I don't want government to decide a certain set of predetermined value for my life. Life is priceless in US, which is why insurance and medicine is so expensive.




1. Yes government are incompetence but their imcompetence will cost you less than what the corporate profit will cost you

2. China has universal healthcare and their population is 1.5 billion

3. In Canada you will recieve the full range of healthcare you need no matter how old or how sick you are.  How grossly misinformed are you to even mention that we let our people die.

4. Right now you decide to spend several hundred if not thousanmds in health insurance.  That money would stay in your bank account.  Like I said earlier, private profits cost you more right now than what you would pay in taxes to fund universal health care

5. If there's medical malpractice than you sue and if you win you can get paid millions.  Who the fuck taught you that hospitals would stop treating for any reason at all???  Insurance and medicine is expensive because corporation take a profit off healing you.




1. your government is so competent, most of your educated citizens fled to US to get a job instead of staying there. and let's not even start with the whole opioids pandemic in Vancouver BC.
2. HA. having a universal health care system doesn't mean it's good. They kill people to harvest their organ, and you actually believe they have a good health care program to take care their citizens?
3. I learned this from multiple baby boomer coworkers, they may be bullshitting, but you can have a read here from a Canadian source. This is a quick search, but I can easily find dozens of similar report.
4. You don't get to keep any of the supposedly "saved money", your money got taxed right away from your paycheck.
5. show me a case of Canadian citizen sues government program for millions of dollars. it simply doesn't happen like in US where our live doesn't have a pre determined number attached to it.

Your superior health care program can't even take care the poor drug addicted people in Vancouver BC, not offering life extending treatment to older cancer patient, and you only have 40 million people to deal with; yet, you expect US government to take care 400 million people?

Edited by MycoWeek (12/12/21 06:59 PM)

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: MycoWeek]
    #27579721 - 12/13/21 08:54 AM (2 years, 5 months ago)

The U.S. GDP is well over 12 times Canada's. We could afford healthcare if we didn't spend all our money on nuclear weapons and subsidizing billionaires.

"They kill people to harvest their organs" is a bizarre interpretation of Canada's right to die law. If somebody is going to be dead anyway, should they be prevented from consenting to donate their organs? Their laws on this are full of safeguards and informed consent clauses.

Since you like to keep bringing up population differences, here's some data on the opioid crisis. The two Canadian provinces with with the highest death rates are British Columbia with 30.6 per 100,000 and Alberta with 18.0 per 100,000. The two states with the highest fatalities are West Virginia with 57.8 per 100,000 and Ohio with 46.3 per 100,000.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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