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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Enlil]
    #26159807 - 08/29/19 08:53 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)



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Offlinechristopera
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26159821 - 08/29/19 08:57 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

The facts are, the bottom of the barrel numbers, put even medicare satisfaction over private insurance. This would be true for the vast majority of people, those who have no insurance at all basically aren't counted.

Add an expansion in there, get the ability to dictate price based on demand, it's a game changer. The best part, industry no longer has to compete with each other or foreign business on health care expense. It levels the field and it should help spur wage growth in the U.S.. In case we aren't paying attention, health care has increased 5% year over year, yet wages are stagnating. I wonder why?


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26159854 - 08/29/19 09:15 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

christopera said:
universal health care would be a boon for American business. I can't believe the capitalists in this country can't see that. Health care is one industry and it would take a huge hit, every other industry would benefit.



Do you mean health insurance would take a big hit?  Health care should be fine.




I disagree with all of the above. Much more than the medical insurance industry will take a hit if medical insurance is no longer tied to employment.

As of right now, the US has a pretty genius system for extracting value from workers using medical expenses as the cudgel. There are many people working jobs they don't like because of the insurance. This is a valid reason, as well. A single medical bill in the US without insurance will bankrupt you and everyone that tries to help you. A broken arm may well end up costing out $100,000+ out of pocket.

Now, by tying medical insurance to employment, you keep people working for you to avoid that medical bill. Otherwise, people might try finding a better job. OR people might decide to retire. Or, god forbid, they might start a small business and become a direct competitor.

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #26161145 - 08/30/19 05:00 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

christopera said:

Medicare say otherwise. It’s already significantly cheaper and more effective than private insurance. The big gubberment scary stories are pretty weak.



Are you actually saying that medicare is better care than private insurance?  You don't actually believe that, do you?




I was on Medicaid for a year once. It was way better than private insurance. They covered literally everything. It varies by state though. In Illinois it's great. At least the high taxes are paying for something worthwhile.  I don't know about medicare. I'll let you know in 3 years. There must be some significant limitations, or we wouldn't be bombarded us with these commercials for medicare supplemental insurance.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Brian Jones] * 3
    #26161313 - 08/30/19 06:53 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Now that most of the conservatives on this sub have conceded that universal healthcare is a good idea, Ca we go ahead and note that the reverse never happens? When is the last time a fringe conservative idea was popularized in the discourse and adopted by the vast majority of the population?

Y’all ain’t conserving anything anyone cares about.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26161760 - 08/31/19 01:46 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

I still say we're 100% fucked no matter what happens.

Enjoy the decline!


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Offlinemrmazdarx9
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26161826 - 08/31/19 03:43 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

I get the arguement, i like that i pay nothing for the hospital or the gp visit, and my medication costs £9 no matter what it is or how much of it there is, but i dont like that i work like a dog while others never work a day and have no plan to ever if they can help it and still get the same as me. I dont mind people who have fallen on hard times or whatever, but these people whos mums/dads have never worked who instill the same shitty work ethic in their 7-8 benefit claims they call kids should have to work for it so long as they are healthy and that health check has to stringent.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26161827 - 08/31/19 03:46 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Bernie's plan charged people based on income, and would have been cheaper for the bottom 95%.  I think the argument against it is that people feel sorry for the rich who would have to pay more than they are now.



That's pretty much how Medicare works in Aus.

A main criticism is like any tax it keeps going up.
When the government introduced Medicare in 1984 it was 1% across the board with exemptions for low income earners.
Now, the basic single person levy is 2% on income above $22398 up to $90000.
Once a single persons income hits $90000 -$105000 the 'levy surcharge' kicks in and another 1% is added. $105000 - $140000 = 1.25% and amounts over $140000 attract 1.5%


Christopera made a good point with this I thought.
Quote:

I'll add, I listened to this interview with the CEO (it may have been a non profit, so his title could have been different) of a major hospital, but he was really hesitant to embrace the universal health care method because he believes that innovative health care relies on profit motive.




Motivating staff to do better, I've had many sleepless nights wondering where things went wrong giving people better working conditions only to see them mistake my kindness for weakness and slacken off.

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #26161892 - 08/31/19 05:50 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mrmazdarx9 said:
I get the arguement, i like that i pay nothing for the hospital or the gp visit, and my medication costs £9 no matter what it is or how much of it there is, but i dont like that i work like a dog while others never work a day and have no plan to ever if they can help it and still get the same as me. I dont mind people who have fallen on hard times or whatever, but these people whos mums/dads have never worked who instill the same shitty work ethic in their 7-8 benefit claims they call kids should have to work for it so long as they are healthy and that health check has to stringent.




How many people fit that criteria?

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Offlinemrmazdarx9
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Kryptos]
    #26161896 - 08/31/19 05:56 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Which?


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #26161909 - 08/31/19 06:20 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

The welfare queens. The people that don't work but get all the free healthcare for their 7-8 benefit claim children. How many of them are there?

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Offlinemrmazdarx9
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Kryptos]
    #26161914 - 08/31/19 06:26 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

I wouldnt know the figure but there are a hell of alot. We have council estates full of them, mostly gobby loud people that spend more benefit money on wide tvs than on their kids clothes and food. There was/is a tv show called benefits street about a street with people like this, at least one i know of has recently been in trouble for claiming benefits whilest getting paid by the tv show.
This is what i found it states a million people how correct that is I dont know. Im basing my thinking on what I see around the council estates and the GP office.

They changed the rules a while back on benefits per  child because people were having lots of children and not working and getting massive houses paid for and insane amounts of benefit money. Now theyve capped it at 3 children iirc so you get the same if you have 3 kids or 10. Is it fair? Well not fair for the kids no.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: mrmazdarx9] * 1
    #26161939 - 08/31/19 07:18 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

However, 600,000 of these claimants are people not able to work – by the government's own definition.




Quote:

But Duncan Smith is employing a linguistic sleight of hand. He says he is only counting those on working-age benefits who are "judged capable of preparing or looking for work". But almost everyone's capable of preparing for work.




So, even generously speaking...0.6%

Quote:

So what the DWP's ad hoc analysis really shows is that six out seven long-term claimants are not supposed to be looking for work. As Declan Gaffney, a policy analyst, points out: "By the Department of Work and Pensions's own definitions all they have proved is that those people who should not be looking for work stay on benefits. Well that's not news."



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InvisibleGuy1980
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: mrmazdarx9] * 3
    #26161945 - 08/31/19 07:23 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mrmazdarx9 said:
I wouldnt know the figure but there are a hell of alot. We have council estates full of them, mostly gobby loud people that spend more benefit money on wide tvs than on their kids clothes and food. There was/is a tv show called benefits street about a street with people like this, at least one i know of has recently been in trouble for claiming benefits whilest getting paid by the tv show.
This is what i found it states a million people how correct that is I dont know. Im basing my thinking on what I see around the council estates and the GP office.

They changed the rules a while back on benefits per  child because people were having lots of children and not working and getting massive houses paid for and insane amounts of benefit money. Now theyve capped it at 3 children iirc so you get the same if you have 3 kids or 10. Is it fair? Well not fair for the kids no.




Come on dude, you're better than that!  The article you linked basically stated 6 out of 7 people who are on benefits should not be looking for work, as per the government (at the time) criteria.

For perspective, the UK has "spent" $435 billion on relieving the pressure caused by the 2007 financial crisis in the last decade.  So ~£45bn/year on bailing out institutions who literally let greed come before sustainability.

The last figures I can see about our welfare state are shown in the pie chart below.



From this, I can see that around £28bn was spent on jobless and housing benefit (which can be claimed by working families btw).  We spend less per year on the feckless lazy types than we do on the greedy bankers.

Around 85% of the welfare budget is spent on pensions, disability, and topping up working people's wages because the salary paid by their employers is deemed not enough to live on.  In fact, more is spent on topping up workers wages to a liveable standard than is spent on the jobless.

The feckless and lazy frustrate me too, and I see plenty of them, but overall, they're a tiny part of a much bigger problem.  Blaming them for there not being enough worthwhile employment is really aiming your ire at a minor symptom of a fucked up state.

On topic, I believe President Trump even argued that the NHS (UK nationalised healthcare system) was taking advantage of the U.S., because it had better buying power and as such was getting U.S. made pharmaceuticals cheaper than U.S. healthcare...

Nationalised healthcare has been proven to be cheaper, and with similar outcomes to private healthcare. 

I know when I needed the NHS, I had trained paramedic get me to an operating theatre within an hour, and I was out of surgery in 2 hours following my 999 call.  In that time I had full access to the specialised drugs, paramedics, a theatre nurse, 2 cardiac doctors, an x-ray operator and was treated by a world leading surgeon (professor), before going to a specialist ward to manage my recovery, then access to a support team for as long as I needed to ensure my long term prognosis was as good as can be.  I'm quite happy to pay for that through various taxes, and that profit was not a motive for any person involved in my treatment/recovery. 

Imagine not knowing if your consultant was recommending a treatment because it's the best for you, or because they get a kickback.  Imagine weighing up the cost of remortgaging the house because the proven best treatment isn't covered by your health plan.

Medical care should be available to all people in a developed country, with people able to go private if they so wish.

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Offlinemrmazdarx9
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Guy1980]
    #26161953 - 08/31/19 07:27 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

I didnt blame anything on anyone, I just said it annoys me.
Its also worth pointing out housing benefit also goes in with the unemployment benefit, I know that working people can also claim depending on what they earn but all unemployment claimants whom wish to live in their own house will also claim that too. Plus child benefit for those with kids.


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InvisibleGuy1980
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: mrmazdarx9] * 2
    #26162016 - 08/31/19 09:00 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mrmazdarx9 said:
I didnt blame anything on anyone, I just said it annoys me.
Its also worth pointing out housing benefit also goes in with the unemployment benefit, I know that working people can also claim depending on what they earn but all unemployment claimants whom wish to live in their own house will also claim that too. Plus child benefit for those with kids.




Yeah, I lumped housing benefit with unemployment.  For my figures, I attributed all HB to the jobless.

Child benefit is not means tested (well it is, but you have to earn twice the median average salary before it's reduced), so the well off receive that in addition to the not so well off.

I'm happy to live in a state where we protect and look after the most vulnerable.  I just wish we incentivised work more.

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OfflineSulfurshelfsean
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Guy1980] * 1
    #26162744 - 08/31/19 05:00 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Having health insurance is better than not having health insurance. No matter how good the insurance is...when I had inaurance under my father's plan it was some of the best insurance you could get. He was a Ny state corrections officer. I say it was the best you could get but they never actually wanted to cover a damned thong. Always had to fight to get them to cover somwthing they said was in their plan....


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Offlinemrmazdarx9
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Guy1980]
    #26162746 - 08/31/19 05:02 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Guy1980 said:
Quote:

mrmazdarx9 said:
I didnt blame anything on anyone, I just said it annoys me.
Its also worth pointing out housing benefit also goes in with the unemployment benefit, I know that working people can also claim depending on what they earn but all unemployment claimants whom wish to live in their own house will also claim that too. Plus child benefit for those with kids.




Yeah, I lumped housing benefit with unemployment.  For my figures, I attributed all HB to the jobless.

Child benefit is not means tested (well it is, but you have to earn twice the median average salary before it's reduced), so the well off receive that in addition to the not so well off.

I'm happy to live in a state where we protect and look after the most vulnerable.  I just wish we incentivised work more.



True that


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Sulfurshelfsean] * 1
    #26162761 - 08/31/19 05:18 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sulfurshelfsean said:
Having health insurance is better than not having health insurance. No matter how good the insurance is...when I had inaurance under my father's plan it was some of the best insurance you could get. He was a Ny state corrections officer. I say it was the best you could get but they never actually wanted to cover a damned thong. Always had to fight to get them to cover somwthing they said was in their plan....




Know what's better?  Universal health!  Everybody gets insurance and absolutely everything is covered no questions asked!

Ain't that awesome!

Somehow you guys don't want that. Go figure.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Patlal] * 1
    #26162828 - 08/31/19 05:48 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

I know. it's cause were rugged individualists and most of us will start a multimillion dollar business at some unspecified time in the future.


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