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 Patlal
You ask too many questions
 
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 What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US 
#26157422 - 08/28/19 03:35 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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What are the talking points of those who are against it?
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 DividedQuantum
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Patlal] 2
#26157449 - 08/28/19 03:46 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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They think it is a version of "socialism" or even "communism," both of which are very bad words in this country. For the majority, all thought stops when they are uttered. There is also a very strong ethos of "every-man-for-himself" in this country, and many tens of millions of people are very uncomfortable with the notion of their tax dollars helping people they do not know.
Some people may feel legitimately that our country cannot afford it. That has been debunked in this forum many times, but major change is often deeply feared.
There are also all of the lobbies in Washington reinforcing the status quo.
We need to do it, but an awful lot of people are against it. For the reasons I've described, and others.
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 christopera
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: DividedQuantum]
#26157452 - 08/28/19 03:50 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Health care lobbys are it.
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XUL
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Patlal]
#26157654 - 08/28/19 05:32 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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I am against mandatory healthcare taxes.
I have better things to pay for and my death isn't worth wasting that money. Let one of the thirteen kids or family take the estate. It will be better infrastructure without the damn taxes.
Do it on a state to state basis so people can flee. Don't make it national.
Leave us the option to flee elsewhere. At least that.
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TRUMP 2020
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Patlal
You ask too many questions
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: XUL] 1
#26157658 - 08/28/19 05:34 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
XUL said:
I am against mandatory healthcare taxes.
I have better things to pay for and my death isn't worth wasting that money. Let one of the thirteen kids or family take the estate. It will be better infrastructure without the damn taxes.
Do it on a state to state basis so people can flee. Don't make it national.
Leave us the option to flee elsewhere. At least that.
You do realize that the country will save a tremendous amount of money right?
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killingravensun
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Patlal]
#26157666 - 08/28/19 05:36 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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lol, the US government cant get much right, healthcare will just get even worse than it already is, if thats possible
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ballsalsa
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Patlal]
#26157674 - 08/28/19 05:37 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Sure, but what about XUL, today, as a young healthy man? Will he save money? Only if he has insurance.
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christopera
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Patlal] 1
#26157675 - 08/28/19 05:38 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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He doesn’t care if it makes sense. He doesn’t care that it would benefit himself and his fellow citizens. He doesn’t care if it would actually be cheaper because everybody uses health care whether they like it or not.
American “conservative” values at work.
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christopera
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: killingravensun] 2
#26157679 - 08/28/19 05:39 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
killingravensun said:
lol, the US government cant get much right, healthcare will just get even worse than it already is, if thats possible
Medicare say otherwise. It’s already significantly cheaper and more effective than private insurance. The big gubberment scary stories are pretty weak.
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killingravensun
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: christopera]
#26157681 - 08/28/19 05:40 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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i personally havent been to a doctor in over 30 years, simple clean living is the best medicine
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evil always wins, good can only do good, evil will lie and cheat until it fools good into doing evil
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killingravensun
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: killingravensun]
#26157691 - 08/28/19 05:42 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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every govt program is a boondoggle and healthcare wont be any different, not that insurance cos are perfect but at least there is a choice, maybe if it was modelled after cuba?
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evil always wins, good can only do good, evil will lie and cheat until it fools good into doing evil
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: XUL]
#26157719 - 08/28/19 05:50 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
XUL said:
I have better things to pay for and my death isn't worth wasting that money. Let one of the thirteen kids or family take the estate.
I'm trying to understand what you're saying here. Are you saying you'd rather die than let Government healthcare take care of you???
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: killingravensun] 1
#26157731 - 08/28/19 05:52 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
killingravensun said:
i personally havent been to a doctor in over 30 years, simple clean living is the best medicine
That's exactly what we want! A system that encourages people to stay healthy in order to keep costs down, not a system that profits more when more people get sick. Medicare For All!!!
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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killingravensun
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26157742 - 08/28/19 05:56 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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yeah, i hate doctors, shit govt healthcare would seal the deal, i would go see a witch doctor first
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evil always wins, good can only do good, evil will lie and cheat until it fools good into doing evil
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XUL
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26157753 - 08/28/19 05:59 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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I would rather use the money on infrastructure and livestock. I would hand my estate to a relative and they would have more infastructure.
My death is irrelevant. They get it all anyway.
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qman
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: killingravensun] 2
#26157780 - 08/28/19 06:12 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
killingravensun said:
every govt program is a boondoggle and healthcare wont be any different, not that insurance cos are perfect but at least there is a choice, maybe if it was modelled after cuba?
Insurance companies were supposed to manage health care costs and that was the magical solution to private insurance.
The problem is that if health care costs don't rise, the insurance companies can't increase their profits. Private insurance has no incentive to lower costs, they need HIGHER costs.
This is why even basic health care procedures go HIGHER every year instead of lower.
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killingravensun
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: qman]
#26157798 - 08/28/19 06:20 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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capitalism is based on endless growth and ins cos are the best capitalists, they will never allow govt healthcare
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evil always wins, good can only do good, evil will lie and cheat until it fools good into doing evil
freedom is the ability to take wrong action, right actions are constrained by nature
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qman
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: killingravensun] 1
#26157839 - 08/28/19 06:36 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
killingravensun said:
capitalism is based on endless growth and ins cos are the best capitalists, they will never allow govt healthcare
If insurance companies have their way, yes they will continue to screw over the average US citizen with higher costs and lower quality of care.
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killingravensun
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: qman]
#26157857 - 08/28/19 06:41 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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lets see, the health ins cos have 835 lobbyists and spent $78+ million this year on lobbying, good luck with universal healthcare
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evil always wins, good can only do good, evil will lie and cheat until it fools good into doing evil
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JohnRainy
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Patlal] 2
#26157860 - 08/28/19 06:44 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Canada went through the same shit.
Medicare was adopted in 1968. At the time the campaign against it went something like this.
All the doctors will leave.
It will be rationed, so that sometimes a bureaucrat on a death panel will pull the plug on your elderly Dad. I didn't say that quite right. It was a GOVERNMENT death panel that would decide if your elderly dad would survive another hour.
GOVERNMENT is key here. You have to say it with the right tone of voice. If the word doesn't scare you with its tone, you don't understand.
The population will hopelessly overcrowd the hospitals and sick people won't be able to get care because everyone will run to the doctor every time they stub their toe, sneeze, or get a scratch.
Canada will go bankrupt.
Canada will turn into USSR.
Babies born under a medicare plan will belong to the state.
People will stop taking care of themselves because if they get sick, they don't have to pay out of pocket for care. There will be no incentive to be healthy.
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JohnRainy
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: JohnRainy]
#26157915 - 08/28/19 07:16 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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I had a brief conversation with an American about this once. Their beef was that if health insurance is funded by taxes, then what you get is people who take care of their health have to chip in for people who don't.
I guess that might be true in some circumstances.
Doesn't bother me none, society is just better when health insurance is automatically part of the system. The universal public plan is cheaper anyways, like you said, and people who smoke and drink too much pay high taxes on their legal purchases of such things.
A 750ml bottle of hard stuff goes for about $25-$30. A pack of smokes in BC is over 12 dollars and there are only 20 in a pack.
That tops up the healthcare funding some.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: JohnRainy]
#26157936 - 08/28/19 07:27 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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That might be valid if the US didn’t already pay tremendously more for our weak ass private system than other countries do for universal public ones.
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koods
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: XUL] 1
#26157947 - 08/28/19 07:32 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
XUL said:
I am against mandatory healthcare taxes.
I have better things to pay for and my death isn't worth wasting that money. Let one of the thirteen kids or family take the estate. It will be better infrastructure without the damn taxes.
Do it on a state to state basis so people can flee. Don't make it national.
Leave us the option to flee elsewhere. At least that.
Until you get sick and then you will demand the best treatments and do anything to get better. You only say this from the perspective of someone who isn’t sick.
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koods
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: JohnRainy]
#26157958 - 08/28/19 07:35 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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There’s nothing more expensive than people who take care of their health. They live longer and old people are very resource intensive.
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NotSheekle said
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qman
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: JohnRainy] 1
#26157972 - 08/28/19 07:47 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JohnRainy said:
Canada went through the same shit.
Medicare was adopted in 1968. At the time the campaign against it went something like this.
All the doctors will leave.
It will be rationed, so that sometimes a bureaucrat on a death panel will pull the plug on your elderly Dad. I didn't say that quite right. It was a GOVERNMENT death panel that would decide if your elderly dad would survive another hour.
GOVERNMENT is key here. You have to say it with the right tone of voice. If the word doesn't scare you with its tone, you don't understand.
The population will hopelessly overcrowd the hospitals and sick people won't be able to get care because everyone will run to the doctor every time they stub their toe, sneeze, or get a scratch.
Canada will go bankrupt.
Canada will turn into USSR.
Babies born under a medicare plan will belong to the state.
People will stop taking care of themselves because if they get sick, they don't have to pay out of pocket for care. There will be no incentive to be healthy.
You don't think private insurance dictates what type of treatment a person receives? I know people that treat cancer patients and the first thing they do is look at the type of insurance the patient has and that's the type of treatment they will receive. Sometimes it's under-treatment and sometimes it's actually over-treatment. What a great system.
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koods
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: qman]
#26157977 - 08/28/19 07:52 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Private insurance is so limiting. You have to chose a doctor from a list. Available treatments come from a list. The medicines you can take are on a list. How much treatment you can receive is on a list.
Getting your insurance through your employer is a huge burden on the labor force. It limits economic freedom more than almost anything. Someone saying “i’d Like to change jobs but I can’t give up my insurance” is an absurd thing, but it doesn’t even phase an American hearing it.
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
Edited by koods (08/28/19 07:56 PM)
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mrmazdarx9
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: qman]
#26157987 - 08/28/19 07:55 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Our hospitals are filled with people all the time all day and night. Minimum 4 hour wait and the more serious the longer the wait seriously unless your literally dying then the will see you straight away. The week day GP office is a month booking in advance and is packed with the elderly and the jobless chavs faking limps to get their benefits. NHS tries hard but with so many people all trying to get seen to for very minor things like colds its failing.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: koods]
#26157996 - 08/28/19 08:01 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Its fundamentally flawed and would argue that it is ethically wrong in regards to pricing. Very deceptive on what hospitals charge. The higher the price, the higher insurance premiums one has (the insurance company is not complaining)Same injury can be billed 3 to 4 times more, if in a car accident, then say, a trip and fall.The aspirin that is sold for x20 times its worth, that shit has got to end.
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Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (08/28/19 08:02 PM)
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koods
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: mrmazdarx9] 1
#26158001 - 08/28/19 08:02 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
mrmazdarx9 said:
Our hospitals are filled with people all the time all day and night. Minimum 4 hour wait and the more serious the longer the wait seriously unless your literally dying then the will see you straight away. The week day GP office is a month booking in advance and is packed with the elderly and the jobless chavs faking limps to get their benefits. NHS tries hard but with so many people all trying to get seen to for very minor things like colds its failing.
The British system is different than Canada because the entire system is government run. Canada is essentially like the US in terms of healthcare delivery, the difference is your insurance is run by the government and not by private insurance companies.
Hospitals in the US are a nightmare as well.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: qman] 1
#26158005 - 08/28/19 08:04 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
JohnRainy said:
Canada went through the same shit.
Medicare was adopted in 1968. At the time the campaign against it went something like this.
All the doctors will leave.
It will be rationed, so that sometimes a bureaucrat on a death panel will pull the plug on your elderly Dad. I didn't say that quite right. It was a GOVERNMENT death panel that would decide if your elderly dad would survive another hour.
GOVERNMENT is key here. You have to say it with the right tone of voice. If the word doesn't scare you with its tone, you don't understand.
The population will hopelessly overcrowd the hospitals and sick people won't be able to get care because everyone will run to the doctor every time they stub their toe, sneeze, or get a scratch.
Canada will go bankrupt.
Canada will turn into USSR.
Babies born under a medicare plan will belong to the state.
People will stop taking care of themselves because if they get sick, they don't have to pay out of pocket for care. There will be no incentive to be healthy.
You don't think private insurance dictates what type of treatment a person receives? I know people that treat cancer patients and the first thing they do is look at the type of insurance the patient has and that's the type of treatment they will receive. Sometimes it's under-treatment and sometimes it's actually over-treatment. What a great system.
You should apply this logic to other sectors of the economy.
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koods
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#26158012 - 08/28/19 08:08 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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We can’t have universal health care in the US because a guy once had to wait 6 weeks for a knee replacement in Canada.
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JohnRainy
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: qman]
#26158025 - 08/28/19 08:20 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
You don't think private insurance dictates what type of treatment a person receives? I know people that treat cancer patients and the first thing they do is look at the type of insurance the patient has and that's the type of treatment they will receive. Sometimes it's under-treatment and sometimes it's actually over-treatment. What a great system.
Yeah man I think all that.
Maybe it wasn't clear, but I was not promoting the private health insurance narrative.
Maybe Im misunderstanding, but I think you got me backwards. I'm sure you will find me far too left wing for your taste.
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christopera
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: JohnRainy] 1
#26158072 - 08/28/19 08:47 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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When I lived in Canada I got great care.
Also, a month wait for see a GP? Booo fucking hooo. I literally don’t have one because they are booked so far in advance it’s not practical to even try and go. My wife has one, when her meds were screwed up she called them daily for two weeks and couldn't even get an appointment. 95% of the time they didn't even call her back. When things got too bad, she was admitted to the emergency room. They actually comped us for all the treatment. Why did they comp us? Well, because we had an easy malpractice case on our hands. There's nothing quite like threatening to sue your health insurer to get decent care. What an awesome system we have.
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koods
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: christopera]
#26158083 - 08/28/19 08:57 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah my experience living in Canada was the same.
Canada has a lot more clinics where you can get quick treatment without going to an ER. And again, in Canada you don’t have to worry where and who will accept your insurance.
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
Edited by koods (08/28/19 09:00 PM)
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Kryptos
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: XUL] 2
#26158093 - 08/28/19 09:06 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
XUL said:
I would rather use the money on infrastructure and livestock. I would hand my estate to a relative and they would have more infastructure.
My death is irrelevant. They get it all anyway.
That's not how it goes. You may choose that, sure, but that's not what's gonna happen if you're sick or injured. You'll just wake up in the ER with a hospital billing technician holding a debt payment plan.
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koods
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Kryptos] 2
#26158103 - 08/28/19 09:12 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Exactly. Like he’s gonna turn down care when his leg is bent sideways after a car accident or when his goat bites his hand and he gets necrotizing fasciitis. No he’ll just get the bill and go bankrupt because he can’t pay it.
But xul lives on a farm, a place Kniwn for its safety and lack of serious accidents. It’s not like he lives in America where you can get shot randomly in public places.
Edited by koods (08/28/19 09:17 PM)
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starfire_xes
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: ballsalsa]
#26158187 - 08/28/19 10:56 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Sure, but what about XUL, today, as a young healthy man? Will he save money? Only if he has insurance.
NOT TRUE
THE GOVERMENT ALREADY HAS programs to get you cheap health care. I go to a goverment run center. Dental too.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: starfire_xes]
#26158200 - 08/28/19 11:09 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
starfire_xes said:
I go to a goverment run center. Dental too.
And you're ok with that? (Otherwise, why do it?)
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26158219 - 08/28/19 11:30 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Welfare for me, not for thee.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Kryptos]
#26158326 - 08/29/19 01:37 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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No matter how it works out, it'll be suboptimal and overpriced.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26158340 - 08/29/19 02:00 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Unless we do it like other countries. 
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 2
#26158475 - 08/29/19 06:10 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think the argument against universal healthcare in the U.S. is that white people don't want to pay for nonwhites. Middleclass people don't want to pay for poor people, and rich people don't want to pay for anybody.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Brian Jones]
#26158563 - 08/29/19 07:29 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Before we go universal healthcare.....Impeding issues like pricing, transparency, and cost need to be discussed, otherwise, I dont feel it would be cheaper or cost effective.(just like it is now)
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: SirTripAlot] 2
#26158808 - 08/29/19 10:35 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Just like it is now? You mean like how medicare is already significantly cheaper per person than private health insurance? It's on the order of like 15%, and medicare operates with less scale now, so it would only get cheaper as buying power increased.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Brian Jones] 1
#26158897 - 08/29/19 11:23 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said:
I think the argument against universal healthcare in the U.S. is that white people don't want to pay for nonwhites. Middleclass people don't want to pay for poor people, and rich people don't want to pay for anybody.
Bernie's plan charged people based on income, and would have been cheaper for the bottom 95%. I think the argument against it is that people feel sorry for the rich who would have to pay more than they are now.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26159081 - 08/29/19 01:15 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well if the rich have to pay more then they won’t create jobs because trickle down
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: koods]
#26159086 - 08/29/19 01:18 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: koods]
#26159105 - 08/29/19 01:30 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said:
Well if the rich have to pay more then they won’t create jobs because trickle down
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Patlal]
#26159218 - 08/29/19 02:38 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said:
What are the talking points of those who are against it?
Most Americans would support it but powerful lobbying forces have prevented it from becoming law. There is also a contingent of Americans who would rather the USA became third world country than see the poor get free healthcare with no debt. American culture worships money and if you are poor you are considered to be morally defective.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: YangSupporter]
#26159492 - 08/29/19 06:23 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
YangSupporter said:
American culture worships money and if you are poor you are considered to be morally defective.
This is 100% true. In the US, your morality is dictated by your bank account.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: christopera] 1
#26159594 - 08/29/19 07:24 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
christopera said:
Medicare say otherwise. It’s already significantly cheaper and more effective than private insurance. The big gubberment scary stories are pretty weak.
Are you actually saying that medicare is better care than private insurance? You don't actually believe that, do you?
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Enlil]
#26159613 - 08/29/19 07:32 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Could be based on what policy one has? There be those"Cadillac" policies .The only other tangible example for government health care is the Department of Veterans Affairs. IMO, not to good of a track record.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Enlil] 1
#26159627 - 08/29/19 07:38 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
christopera said:
Medicare say otherwise. It’s already significantly cheaper and more effective than private insurance. The big gubberment scary stories are pretty weak.
Are you actually saying that medicare is better care than private insurance? You don't actually believe that, do you?
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/journal-article/2002/oct/medicare-vs-private-insurance-rhetoric-and-reality
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Seems like you’re the one with beliefs.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: christopera]
#26159651 - 08/29/19 07:52 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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That doesn't address the point at all.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Enlil]
#26159672 - 08/29/19 08:00 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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"better"
Please define.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: christopera]
#26159676 - 08/29/19 08:02 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Meaning that Medicare provides care that even the best private insurance would not.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Enlil] 2
#26159683 - 08/29/19 08:04 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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What a shit position.
Of course if you have endless cash you can buy private insurance that's better than medicare. Nobody is arguing otherwise. The rich will still have better care, that's obvious.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: christopera]
#26159690 - 08/29/19 08:06 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Then Medicare for all is a downgrade for some.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Enlil] 2
#26159698 - 08/29/19 08:08 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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No shit.
But it's a giant fucking upgrade for the majority.
So what exactly are you trying to prove? That you some how favor the rich on this position?
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Enlil]
#26159716 - 08/29/19 08:14 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Then Medicare for all is a downgrade for some.
I wont lose any sleep over it.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: christopera]
#26159724 - 08/29/19 08:15 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Not trying to prove anything. Not a single one of my doctors take Medicare. A lot a doctors don't. The way cheap insurance works is that they chisel doctors, which means less will be interested. That's fine when Medicare is small. That is a real problem when it expands to everyone.
Universal health care should start with realistic funding instead of a Medicare pipe dream
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Enlil]
#26159730 - 08/29/19 08:19 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Take medicare, starve, move to some other country with higher pricing models, learn a new trade.
Those appear to be the options in such a scenario. Which is likely to be the popular choice?
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: ballsalsa]
#26159735 - 08/29/19 08:20 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Why do those have to be the only options?
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Enlil]
#26159739 - 08/29/19 08:21 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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They clearly dont but they seemed plausible off the top of my head as the family fued list
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: ballsalsa]
#26159746 - 08/29/19 08:23 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Why not fully fund a comprehensive healthcare system? It's within reach.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Enlil]
#26159752 - 08/29/19 08:26 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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What do you mean by "fully fund", exactly?
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: ballsalsa]
#26159753 - 08/29/19 08:27 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Fund it in a way that doesn't require the shitty compromise that is Medicare.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Enlil]
#26159757 - 08/29/19 08:30 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Not trying to prove anything. Not a single one of my doctors take Medicare. A lot a doctors don't. The way cheap insurance works is that they chisel doctors, which means less will be interested. That's fine when Medicare is small. That is a real problem when it expands to everyone.
Universal health care should start with realistic funding instead of a Medicare pipe dream
If you want to argue that proposed universal health care methods will face major infrastructure issues as a result of the current model then we can agree.
I do disagree on your expansion comments, there will be hurdles to overcome, but ultimately the system will be even more efficient than medicare currently is. Especially so if we can shed the capitalist model and start dictating pricing.
I'll add, I listened to this interview with the CEO (it may have been a non profit, so his title could have been different) of a major hospital, but he was really hesitant to embrace the universal health care method because he believes that innovative health care relies on profit motive. I don't disagree, the issue I have is that the profit motive is so skewed that it's currently unrealistic. Instead of investing in innovation, they invest in safe bets, bets that are the most profitable. In a system of state control, there would be a fixed reward, not dependent on marketing. This would mean innovation would be much less risky, there's a fixed reward.
All of that aside, universal health care would be a boon for American business. I can't believe the capitalists in this country can't see that. Health care is one industry and it would take a huge hit, every other industry would benefit.
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Edited by christopera (08/29/19 08:32 PM)
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Enlil] 2
#26159761 - 08/29/19 08:31 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Fund it in a way that doesn't require the shitty compromise that is Medicare.
It's so shitty that (most) people are more satisfied with medicare than privately insured people are with their health care.
Come on man.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: christopera] 2
#26159770 - 08/29/19 08:35 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
christopera said:
universal health care would be a boon for American business. I can't believe the capitalists in this country can't see that. Health care is one industry and it would take a huge hit, every other industry would benefit.
Do you mean health insurance would take a big hit? Health care should be fine.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: christopera]
#26159774 - 08/29/19 08:36 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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62 percent satisfaction is shitty by any metric.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26159777 - 08/29/19 08:38 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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The argument is more why should the rich drop PPOs for the poor. Also it's always pointed to socialist dictatorships saying were going to be next which is just horseshit
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26159779 - 08/29/19 08:38 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
christopera said:
universal health care would be a boon for American business. I can't believe the capitalists in this country can't see that. Health care is one industry and it would take a huge hit, every other industry would benefit.
Do you mean health insurance would take a big hit? Health care should be fine.
Yes. Sorry, it’s late here and I’ve had a drink or two.
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Edited by christopera (08/29/19 08:41 PM)
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Enlil]
#26159782 - 08/29/19 08:40 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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M4A is comprehensive. Its mostly just leveraging the name recognition of medicare
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: ballsalsa] 2
#26159784 - 08/29/19 08:40 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
62 percent satisfaction is shitty by any metric.
11% better than private insurance.
Not sure what you want?
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: christopera]
#26159786 - 08/29/19 08:41 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Something better than a D average would be a start.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Enlil] 1
#26159791 - 08/29/19 08:44 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Medicare For All isn’t really the same as Medicare for all
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Enlil]
#26159796 - 08/29/19 08:45 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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I guess if you want to move the goal posts, then sure.
Only health care with 115% (an inherently meaningless number) satisfaction will satisfy Enlil. Let that be known.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: The Ecstatic]
#26159801 - 08/29/19 08:49 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Medicare For All isn’t really the same as Medicare for all
How do we know what it is?
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The Ecstatic
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Enlil]
#26159805 - 08/29/19 08:51 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Medicare For All isn’t really the same as Medicare for all
How do we know what it is?
You can read the Senate or House bill. It’s closer to Medicaid than Medicare, but also expands beyond what Medicaid currently offers, obviously.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Enlil]
#26159807 - 08/29/19 08:53 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: The Ecstatic]
#26159821 - 08/29/19 08:57 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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The facts are, the bottom of the barrel numbers, put even medicare satisfaction over private insurance. This would be true for the vast majority of people, those who have no insurance at all basically aren't counted.
Add an expansion in there, get the ability to dictate price based on demand, it's a game changer. The best part, industry no longer has to compete with each other or foreign business on health care expense. It levels the field and it should help spur wage growth in the U.S.. In case we aren't paying attention, health care has increased 5% year over year, yet wages are stagnating. I wonder why?
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26159854 - 08/29/19 09:15 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
christopera said:
universal health care would be a boon for American business. I can't believe the capitalists in this country can't see that. Health care is one industry and it would take a huge hit, every other industry would benefit.
Do you mean health insurance would take a big hit? Health care should be fine.
I disagree with all of the above. Much more than the medical insurance industry will take a hit if medical insurance is no longer tied to employment.
As of right now, the US has a pretty genius system for extracting value from workers using medical expenses as the cudgel. There are many people working jobs they don't like because of the insurance. This is a valid reason, as well. A single medical bill in the US without insurance will bankrupt you and everyone that tries to help you. A broken arm may well end up costing out $100,000+ out of pocket.
Now, by tying medical insurance to employment, you keep people working for you to avoid that medical bill. Otherwise, people might try finding a better job. OR people might decide to retire. Or, god forbid, they might start a small business and become a direct competitor.
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Brian Jones
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Enlil] 2
#26161145 - 08/30/19 05:00 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
christopera said:
Medicare say otherwise. It’s already significantly cheaper and more effective than private insurance. The big gubberment scary stories are pretty weak.
Are you actually saying that medicare is better care than private insurance? You don't actually believe that, do you?
I was on Medicaid for a year once. It was way better than private insurance. They covered literally everything. It varies by state though. In Illinois it's great. At least the high taxes are paying for something worthwhile. I don't know about medicare. I'll let you know in 3 years. There must be some significant limitations, or we wouldn't be bombarded us with these commercials for medicare supplemental insurance.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Brian Jones] 3
#26161313 - 08/30/19 06:53 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Now that most of the conservatives on this sub have conceded that universal healthcare is a good idea, Ca we go ahead and note that the reverse never happens? When is the last time a fringe conservative idea was popularized in the discourse and adopted by the vast majority of the population?
Y’all ain’t conserving anything anyone cares about.
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: The Ecstatic]
#26161760 - 08/31/19 01:46 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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I still say we're 100% fucked no matter what happens.
Enjoy the decline!
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mrmazdarx9
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26161826 - 08/31/19 03:43 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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I get the arguement, i like that i pay nothing for the hospital or the gp visit, and my medication costs £9 no matter what it is or how much of it there is, but i dont like that i work like a dog while others never work a day and have no plan to ever if they can help it and still get the same as me. I dont mind people who have fallen on hard times or whatever, but these people whos mums/dads have never worked who instill the same shitty work ethic in their 7-8 benefit claims they call kids should have to work for it so long as they are healthy and that health check has to stringent.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26161827 - 08/31/19 03:46 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Bernie's plan charged people based on income, and would have been cheaper for the bottom 95%. I think the argument against it is that people feel sorry for the rich who would have to pay more than they are now.
That's pretty much how Medicare works in Aus.
A main criticism is like any tax it keeps going up.
When the government introduced Medicare in 1984 it was 1% across the board with exemptions for low income earners.
Now, the basic single person levy is 2% on income above $22398 up to $90000.
Once a single persons income hits $90000 -$105000 the 'levy surcharge' kicks in and another 1% is added. $105000 - $140000 = 1.25% and amounts over $140000 attract 1.5%
Christopera made a good point with this I thought.
Quote:
I'll add, I listened to this interview with the CEO (it may have been a non profit, so his title could have been different) of a major hospital, but he was really hesitant to embrace the universal health care method because he believes that innovative health care relies on profit motive.
Motivating staff to do better, I've had many sleepless nights wondering where things went wrong giving people better working conditions only to see them mistake my kindness for weakness and slacken off.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: mrmazdarx9]
#26161892 - 08/31/19 05:50 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
mrmazdarx9 said:
I get the arguement, i like that i pay nothing for the hospital or the gp visit, and my medication costs £9 no matter what it is or how much of it there is, but i dont like that i work like a dog while others never work a day and have no plan to ever if they can help it and still get the same as me. I dont mind people who have fallen on hard times or whatever, but these people whos mums/dads have never worked who instill the same shitty work ethic in their 7-8 benefit claims they call kids should have to work for it so long as they are healthy and that health check has to stringent.
How many people fit that criteria?
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Kryptos]
#26161896 - 08/31/19 05:56 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Which?
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: mrmazdarx9]
#26161909 - 08/31/19 06:20 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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The welfare queens. The people that don't work but get all the free healthcare for their 7-8 benefit claim children. How many of them are there?
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mrmazdarx9
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Kryptos]
#26161914 - 08/31/19 06:26 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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I wouldnt know the figure but there are a hell of alot. We have council estates full of them, mostly gobby loud people that spend more benefit money on wide tvs than on their kids clothes and food. There was/is a tv show called benefits street about a street with people like this, at least one i know of has recently been in trouble for claiming benefits whilest getting paid by the tv show.
This is what i found it states a million people how correct that is I dont know. Im basing my thinking on what I see around the council estates and the GP office.
They changed the rules a while back on benefits per child because people were having lots of children and not working and getting massive houses paid for and insane amounts of benefit money. Now theyve capped it at 3 children iirc so you get the same if you have 3 kids or 10. Is it fair? Well not fair for the kids no.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: mrmazdarx9] 1
#26161939 - 08/31/19 07:18 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
However, 600,000 of these claimants are people not able to work – by the government's own definition.
Quote:
But Duncan Smith is employing a linguistic sleight of hand. He says he is only counting those on working-age benefits who are "judged capable of preparing or looking for work". But almost everyone's capable of preparing for work.
So, even generously speaking...0.6%
Quote:
So what the DWP's ad hoc analysis really shows is that six out seven long-term claimants are not supposed to be looking for work. As Declan Gaffney, a policy analyst, points out: "By the Department of Work and Pensions's own definitions all they have proved is that those people who should not be looking for work stay on benefits. Well that's not news."
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Guy1980
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: mrmazdarx9] 3
#26161945 - 08/31/19 07:23 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
mrmazdarx9 said:
I wouldnt know the figure but there are a hell of alot. We have council estates full of them, mostly gobby loud people that spend more benefit money on wide tvs than on their kids clothes and food. There was/is a tv show called benefits street about a street with people like this, at least one i know of has recently been in trouble for claiming benefits whilest getting paid by the tv show.
This is what i found it states a million people how correct that is I dont know. Im basing my thinking on what I see around the council estates and the GP office.
They changed the rules a while back on benefits per child because people were having lots of children and not working and getting massive houses paid for and insane amounts of benefit money. Now theyve capped it at 3 children iirc so you get the same if you have 3 kids or 10. Is it fair? Well not fair for the kids no.
Come on dude, you're better than that! The article you linked basically stated 6 out of 7 people who are on benefits should not be looking for work, as per the government (at the time) criteria.
For perspective, the UK has "spent" $435 billion on relieving the pressure caused by the 2007 financial crisis in the last decade. So ~£45bn/year on bailing out institutions who literally let greed come before sustainability.
The last figures I can see about our welfare state are shown in the pie chart below.
From this, I can see that around £28bn was spent on jobless and housing benefit (which can be claimed by working families btw). We spend less per year on the feckless lazy types than we do on the greedy bankers.
Around 85% of the welfare budget is spent on pensions, disability, and topping up working people's wages because the salary paid by their employers is deemed not enough to live on. In fact, more is spent on topping up workers wages to a liveable standard than is spent on the jobless.
The feckless and lazy frustrate me too, and I see plenty of them, but overall, they're a tiny part of a much bigger problem. Blaming them for there not being enough worthwhile employment is really aiming your ire at a minor symptom of a fucked up state.
On topic, I believe President Trump even argued that the NHS (UK nationalised healthcare system) was taking advantage of the U.S., because it had better buying power and as such was getting U.S. made pharmaceuticals cheaper than U.S. healthcare...
Nationalised healthcare has been proven to be cheaper, and with similar outcomes to private healthcare.
I know when I needed the NHS, I had trained paramedic get me to an operating theatre within an hour, and I was out of surgery in 2 hours following my 999 call. In that time I had full access to the specialised drugs, paramedics, a theatre nurse, 2 cardiac doctors, an x-ray operator and was treated by a world leading surgeon (professor), before going to a specialist ward to manage my recovery, then access to a support team for as long as I needed to ensure my long term prognosis was as good as can be. I'm quite happy to pay for that through various taxes, and that profit was not a motive for any person involved in my treatment/recovery.
Imagine not knowing if your consultant was recommending a treatment because it's the best for you, or because they get a kickback. Imagine weighing up the cost of remortgaging the house because the proven best treatment isn't covered by your health plan.
Medical care should be available to all people in a developed country, with people able to go private if they so wish.
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mrmazdarx9
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Guy1980]
#26161953 - 08/31/19 07:27 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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I didnt blame anything on anyone, I just said it annoys me.
Its also worth pointing out housing benefit also goes in with the unemployment benefit, I know that working people can also claim depending on what they earn but all unemployment claimants whom wish to live in their own house will also claim that too. Plus child benefit for those with kids.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: mrmazdarx9] 2
#26162016 - 08/31/19 09:00 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
mrmazdarx9 said:
I didnt blame anything on anyone, I just said it annoys me.
Its also worth pointing out housing benefit also goes in with the unemployment benefit, I know that working people can also claim depending on what they earn but all unemployment claimants whom wish to live in their own house will also claim that too. Plus child benefit for those with kids.
Yeah, I lumped housing benefit with unemployment. For my figures, I attributed all HB to the jobless.
Child benefit is not means tested (well it is, but you have to earn twice the median average salary before it's reduced), so the well off receive that in addition to the not so well off.
I'm happy to live in a state where we protect and look after the most vulnerable. I just wish we incentivised work more.
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Sulfurshelfsean
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Guy1980] 1
#26162744 - 08/31/19 05:00 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Having health insurance is better than not having health insurance. No matter how good the insurance is...when I had inaurance under my father's plan it was some of the best insurance you could get. He was a Ny state corrections officer. I say it was the best you could get but they never actually wanted to cover a damned thong. Always had to fight to get them to cover somwthing they said was in their plan....
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mrmazdarx9
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Guy1980]
#26162746 - 08/31/19 05:02 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Guy1980 said:
Quote:
mrmazdarx9 said:
I didnt blame anything on anyone, I just said it annoys me.
Its also worth pointing out housing benefit also goes in with the unemployment benefit, I know that working people can also claim depending on what they earn but all unemployment claimants whom wish to live in their own house will also claim that too. Plus child benefit for those with kids.
Yeah, I lumped housing benefit with unemployment. For my figures, I attributed all HB to the jobless.
Child benefit is not means tested (well it is, but you have to earn twice the median average salary before it's reduced), so the well off receive that in addition to the not so well off.
I'm happy to live in a state where we protect and look after the most vulnerable. I just wish we incentivised work more.
True that
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Patlal
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Sulfurshelfsean] 1
#26162761 - 08/31/19 05:18 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sulfurshelfsean said:
Having health insurance is better than not having health insurance. No matter how good the insurance is...when I had inaurance under my father's plan it was some of the best insurance you could get. He was a Ny state corrections officer. I say it was the best you could get but they never actually wanted to cover a damned thong. Always had to fight to get them to cover somwthing they said was in their plan....
Know what's better? Universal health! Everybody gets insurance and absolutely everything is covered no questions asked!
Ain't that awesome!
Somehow you guys don't want that. Go figure.
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Brian Jones
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Patlal] 1
#26162828 - 08/31/19 05:48 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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I know. it's cause were rugged individualists and most of us will start a multimillion dollar business at some unspecified time in the future.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Patlal]
#26162852 - 08/31/19 06:02 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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It will cost an unbelievably large amount. We'll have to give up a lot of other stuff to do it. Funding for lots of stuff will have to get cut, social programs, welfare programs, all sorts of services. Even then we'll probably have to raise taxes.
Still, I actually support universal healthcare in some form in America. I just think there will be serious downsides and consequences.
Private insurance will never go away, it'll be more like the government paying for your private insurance at a basic level if you can't afford or don't want to buy something better.
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Patlal
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: nooneman] 2
#26162899 - 08/31/19 06:51 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said:
It will cost an unbelievably large amount. We'll have to give up a lot of other stuff to do it. Funding for lots of stuff will have to get cut, social programs, welfare programs, all sorts of services. Even then we'll probably have to raise taxes.
Still, I actually support universal healthcare in some form in America. I just think there will be serious downsides and consequences.
Private insurance will never go away, it'll be more like the government paying for your private insurance at a basic level if you can't afford or don't want to buy something better.
No. Healthcare will be 50% cheaper for everybody...
Private insurance went away in all the countries who had it before they got universal healthcare.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: nooneman] 2
#26162941 - 08/31/19 07:53 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said:
It will cost an unbelievably large amount. We'll have to give up a lot of other stuff to do it. Funding for lots of stuff will have to get cut, social programs, welfare programs, all sorts of services. Even then we'll probably have to raise taxes.
Still, I actually support universal healthcare in some form in America. I just think there will be serious downsides and consequences.
Private insurance will never go away, it'll be more like the government paying for your private insurance at a basic level if you can't afford or don't want to buy something better.
It wont work unless private insurance goes away. That's the only way it could be affordable.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Brian Jones] 2
#26163574 - 09/01/19 09:14 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Private insurance will poof out of existence the day a universal plan passes. Private insurance simply won't be able to compete in any way when there is a public option that has the bargaining power of the government behind it.
The only reason Obamacare didn't kill private insurance is because it was built to do as little as possible. Obamacare was basically the republican proposal from 2007, before it became SoCiAlIsM.
Any sort of universal coverage with government bargaining power will result in pretty much everyone, including all the rich folk, moving to the public option. It will just be cheaper. If we pay for it with increased taxes, then taxes will go up, but the burden of insurance premiums will disappear. It will end up saving money for everyone involved, by cutting out one hell of a middleman. You won't have to fund health insurance lobbying costs anymore.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Kryptos]
#26163658 - 09/01/19 10:28 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Stop making sense
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YangSupporter
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: ballsalsa] 9
#26164905 - 09/02/19 08:26 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Number of people who go bankrupt every year because of medical bills:
UK - 0
France - 0
Spain - 0
Portugal- 0
Denmark - 0
Australia - 0
Iceland - 0
Italy - 0
Finland - 0
Ireland - 0
Germany - 0
Netherlands - 0
Sweden - 0
Japan - 0
Chile - 0
Canada - 0
United States - 643,000
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Morel Guy
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: YangSupporter]
#26190351 - 09/15/19 06:18 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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It'd bankrupt Ohio. Thing is people say it is socialist and they don't want Govt controlling their health. Yet they support the Veterans Administration and that's exactly what that is.
Govt already controls massive amounts of health doctrines. They can force treatments and often do.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Morel Guy] 1
#26190504 - 09/15/19 08:13 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Because “government controlling your health” is such a sinister framing. Do you want healthcare to be treated like a public service akin to firefighters and roads? Sounds way better.
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Morel Guy
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#26191000 - 09/16/19 05:28 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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That's just how Republicans think. They really believe it'd limit freedoms and be the beginning of the end.
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YangSupporter
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Morel Guy] 1
#26191083 - 09/16/19 07:11 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Morel Guy said:
That's just how Republicans think. They really believe it'd limit freedoms and be the beginning of the end.
Republicans have no understanding of freedom.
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Morel Guy
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: YangSupporter]
#26191118 - 09/16/19 07:37 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Mmmm freedom for them and what they want and for no one outside their group.
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YangSupporter
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Morel Guy] 1
#26191136 - 09/16/19 07:48 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Freedom for the rich wage slavery for the rest.
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yeah
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Patlal]
#26191137 - 09/16/19 07:49 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Main argument against it for me is that without paying anything you become just another patient the doctor has to get rid of.
Healthcare didn't always used to cost so much. Lots of type A assholes that just want a fat paycheck and prestige become doctors these days. Administration costs need to go down as well, those guys make way more than doctors.
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Morel Guy
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: yeah]
#26191142 - 09/16/19 07:53 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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A pdoc in a ward charges $100 or roundabout just for glancing at a file. Drs sending bills you never meet. They write a script as a weapons inventory before you even arrive.
They wonder why people would rather just dope.
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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"
In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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XUL
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: YangSupporter]
#26191255 - 09/16/19 09:00 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
YangSupporter said:
Freedom for the rich wage slavery for the rest.
Lol
Our regulations push factories overseas where there is true slave wages and pollution.
But you don't care about that.
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yeah
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: XUL] 1
#26191266 - 09/16/19 09:06 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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wouldn't your perspective on that be that slavelike conditions in other countries is their problem to handle and as Americans we need to focus on American issues?
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Morel Guy
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: XUL]
#26191268 - 09/16/19 09:09 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Cost and standard of living is lower over there. You never hear about equivalent wages across nations. Lot's of folks retire aay from the US exactly for those reasons.
Regulations are what keep a standard of living. They keep workers safe. They help cut back on a lot of disease as well.
Boohoo about reguations, boohoo.
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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: XUL]
#26191307 - 09/16/19 09:28 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
XUL said:
Quote:
YangSupporter said:
Freedom for the rich wage slavery for the rest.
Lol
Our regulations push factories overseas where there is true slave wages and pollution.
But you don't care about that.
Shhhhhhh....that doesn't fit the narrative. We just need minimum wage to be $100/hr. or UBI to be $1,000/mo. and everything will balance out. DUH.
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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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Morel Guy
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Loaded Shaman] 1
#26191322 - 09/16/19 09:34 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Sad that people do think that, when the causes of wealth gap are very complex and ancient.
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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"
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yeah
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Morel Guy] 1
#26191325 - 09/16/19 09:36 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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"life's not fair pal that's just the way it is"
"no you can't tax the rich like that it's not fair!!!"
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YangSupporter
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: XUL]
#26191691 - 09/16/19 12:31 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
XUL said:
Quote:
YangSupporter said:
Freedom for the rich wage slavery for the rest.
Lol
Our regulations push factories overseas where there is true slave wages and pollution.
But you don't care about that.
Brilliant lets bring back the Gilded Age! 
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YangSupporter
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26191695 - 09/16/19 12:32 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:
XUL said:
Quote:
YangSupporter said:
Freedom for the rich wage slavery for the rest.
Lol
Our regulations push factories overseas where there is true slave wages and pollution.
But you don't care about that.
Shhhhhhh....that doesn't fit the narrative.
Yes factories with no regulations is what we need to strive for 
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Morel Guy
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: YangSupporter]
#26191722 - 09/16/19 12:45 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Works well for the rich that call Golf, cigars and fine drink "work".
If I had a personality perhaps I too would think working to make $0.10 for ever $5 another guy gets is a good deal. I don't know what actual rates are. I bet trump makes a lot of money off the work others do that he bosses around.
We all know pay is more status than actual productivity. That's what a military worshipping society idealizes. No less one that believes in a heiarchy beyond death.
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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"
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XUL
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: YangSupporter]
#26191859 - 09/16/19 01:42 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
YangSupporter said:
Quote:
XUL said:
Quote:
YangSupporter said:
Freedom for the rich wage slavery for the rest.
Lol
Our regulations push factories overseas where there is true slave wages and pollution.
But you don't care about that.
Brilliant lets bring back the Gilded Age!
That's not my point.
My point is that America is not really going green and isn't moral to the slave workers wages.
We just shift our slave wages and trash to other countries instead.
Do you support that?
Make America beautiful, but shit all over other countries?
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Seriously_trippin
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: XUL] 1
#26191862 - 09/16/19 01:44 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
XUL said:
Quote:
YangSupporter said:
Freedom for the rich wage slavery for the rest.
Lol
Our regulations push factories overseas where there is true slave wages and pollution.
But you don't care about that.
That's still happening in a big way under trump.
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Kryptos
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Seriously_trippin]
#26192003 - 09/16/19 02:56 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Is it just me or is the right wing narrative shifting again?
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Morel Guy
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Kryptos]
#26192629 - 09/16/19 07:36 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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It was never stable ground.
It just sounds nice under meth banging cousins.
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: YangSupporter]
#26193117 - 09/17/19 02:14 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
YangSupporter said:
Quote:
Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:
XUL said:
Quote:
YangSupporter said:
Freedom for the rich wage slavery for the rest.
Lol
Our regulations push factories overseas where there is true slave wages and pollution.
But you don't care about that.
Shhhhhhh....that doesn't fit the narrative.
Yes factories with no regulations is what we need to strive for
Right, because we haven't learned that if you don't agree with someone's statement, go accuse them of the logical extreme! That'll show 'em! Surely we can't have a fine, nuanced balance! That would require thinking, right, Mr. Yang?
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The Ecstatic
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Patlal]
#27531100 - 11/05/21 09:23 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Good post thanks for bumping 
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Oz_Salvia
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27534304 - 11/07/21 10:09 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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How do Americans justify their lack of public health when other advanced and prosperous first world nations manage having a public health system?
Listen up, you can have a public medical system and still have on median average the wealthiest people in the world. https://www.news.com.au/finance/money/wealth/australian-adults-wealthiest-in-the-world-new-global-report-finds/news-story/8fffdc6a9185064a153dde4f57e0b508
Edited by Oz_Salvia (11/07/21 10:10 PM)
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Brian Jones
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Oz_Salvia]
#27534591 - 11/08/21 07:39 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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As I said, Americans can't have healthcare because we think we're going to be rich. Yes, in our minds we are still richer than you.
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I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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christopera
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Brian Jones]
#27534611 - 11/08/21 08:08 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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If you own 5 TV's, you are rich in the US. Healthcare is not considered to be a part of wealth.
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: christopera]
#27535153 - 11/08/21 12:51 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
christopera said:
If you own 5 TV's, you are rich in the US.
No you're not. In the US, you're rich when you don't have to worry about healthcare costs.
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christopera
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Kryptos]
#27535194 - 11/08/21 01:18 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well, I didn’t mean actually rich. I meant perceived rich.
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Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.
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Enlil
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: christopera]
#27536214 - 11/09/21 08:15 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Are you being serious? Is there really a place in the U.S. where having 5 TVs is considered rich?
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Censoring opposing views since 2014.
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Brian Jones
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Enlil]
#27536336 - 11/09/21 10:10 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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TV's cost less than TV stands now.
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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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The Ecstatic
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Brian Jones]
#27536354 - 11/09/21 10:28 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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It’s insane to me how cheap TVs are nowadays. You can get an 80 inch UHD for less than a grand.
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ballsalsa
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#27536399 - 11/09/21 11:06 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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And still there's nothing worth watching
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The Ecstatic
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: ballsalsa]
#27536405 - 11/09/21 11:10 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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You’re kidding right?
There’s Law and Order
Law and Order SVU
NCIS
NCIS LA
NCIS SVU
FBI
FBI NCIS SVU
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ballsalsa
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: The Ecstatic] 2
#27536462 - 11/09/21 11:47 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Or I could always watch 1 of 12 "news" channels tell me about the incredible right-left divide and the insurmountable partisan gridlock for the 100 millionth time but it's so much less entertaining once you realize there is only 1 party and political theater is as scripted as professional wrestling
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OutsideOfMyMind
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: JohnRainy]
#27559014 - 11/26/21 11:25 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
JohnRainy said:
I had a brief conversation with an American about this once. Their beef was that if health insurance is funded by taxes, then what you get is people who take care of their health have to chip in for people who don't.
I guess that might be true in some circumstances.
Doesn't bother me none, society is just better when health insurance is automatically part of the system. The universal public plan is cheaper anyways, like you said, and people who smoke and drink too much pay high taxes on their legal purchases of such things.
A 750ml bottle of hard stuff goes for about $25-$30. A pack of smokes in BC is over 12 dollars and there are only 20 in a pack.
That tops up the healthcare funding some.
I can get a fifth a vodka for like 2 bucks dude. What the hell kind of liquer store are you going to??
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OutsideOfMyMind
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27559016 - 11/26/21 11:28 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
It’s insane to me how cheap TVs are nowadays. You can get an 80 inch UHD for less than a grand.
I remember 10 years ago or so when flat screen tv's were first introduced into the consumer market. You couldn't get one for less than a grand. NOW, I could go to walmart and get a 50 inch flat screen lcd for less than $200.
Commodity items DEvalue in price as time goes on.
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Brian Jones
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: ballsalsa]
#27559136 - 11/27/21 03:50 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Or I could always watch 1 of 12 "news" channels tell me about the incredible right-left divide and the insurmountable partisan gridlock for the 100 millionth time but it's so much less entertaining once you realize there is only 1 party and political theater is as scripted as professional wrestling
On capitalism and war. Then people say all the other issues (the ones where the Democrats and Republicans are in conlict) are peripheral issues. But the people who say that are only white males. Am I wrong?
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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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The Ecstatic
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Brian Jones]
#27559230 - 11/27/21 07:38 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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We live in a white supremacist patriarchy so no you aren’t wrong, but it’s not like other groups have some explicit opposition to war and capitalism. It’s Plato’s Cave for most people, theyve lived in the “war and capitalism” box their entire lives and can’t fathom a system outside that. Even the millennials who swear that half of them love socialism only mean that they want the social safety net expanded.
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ballsalsa
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Brian Jones]
#27559235 - 11/27/21 07:48 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Or I could always watch 1 of 12 "news" channels tell me about the incredible right-left divide and the insurmountable partisan gridlock for the 100 millionth time but it's so much less entertaining once you realize there is only 1 party and political theater is as scripted as professional wrestling
On capitalism and war. Then people say all the other issues (the ones where the Democrats and Republicans are in conlict) are peripheral issues. But the people who say that are only white males. Am I wrong?
Maybe. Which issues do you mean, exactly?
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Brian Jones
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: ballsalsa]
#27559467 - 11/27/21 11:37 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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The issues that increased the acceptance of woman, nonwhites, gays, etc. They don't think the two parties are the same, because the Democratic party improved their lives. That's why racial minorities and gays vote Democrat. With women it's more conditional; the married ones may vote their husband's interests.
At any rate the Dem party caters to these groups because they are the base, especially with so many white working class men voting conservative now probably in response to the above which resulted in their loss of relative privilege.
The social contract with capitalism isn't on the table in the U.S. We can talk about it, but the party only pretends to talk about it. Until the Bernie's and the Squad have hundreds of members in power it will stay that which means it almost surely will stay that way.
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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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ballsalsa
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 Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Brian Jones]
#27559682 - 11/27/21 03:16 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yet here we are with the same social justice problems that have plagued us for...ever. Once again, we're left to wonder if the Dems are comically inept or in collusion w/regard to maintaining the status quo. I don't see them taking any action whatsoever to codify choice rights into law, as an example. Certainly they've had time to develop a strategy in the intervening years since Roe v Wade, yet...
Redlining is illegal but here we are with black generational wealth about as low as it's been in the modern day.
I agree with you insofar as demublicans are reasonably effective at portraying themselves as the party for women and minorities but I have my doubts about the sincerity or efficacy of their "efforts" in my lifetime.
But, hey, gay folks can enter into a contract with the state now(marriage), so that's something.
Maybe the civil rights era Dems were a bit better at getting things done but for as long as I can remember it's been nothing but collusion with the Reaganites, front to back, all the way down.
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koods
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: ballsalsa]
#27560085 - 11/27/21 10:15 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Certainly they've had time to develop a strategy in the intervening years since Roe v Wade
Maybe not on the federal level. The republicans use the filibuster to control the debate on abortion. It’s essentially against the law for the federal government to spend any money in the furtherance of abortion, and there has been no legislative opportunity to undo that law.
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ballsalsa
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: koods]
#27560524 - 11/28/21 09:41 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Oh, well, if there's been no opportunity then I guess that settles it. Maybe someday, if we're all good little girls and boys, an opportunity will arise for legislators to legislate.
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Brian Jones
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: ballsalsa]
#27562852 - 11/30/21 09:13 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Yet here we are with the same social justice problems that have plagued us for...ever. Once again, we're left to wonder if the Dems are comically inept or in collusion w/regard to maintaining the status quo. I don't see them taking any action whatsoever to codify choice rights into law, as an example. Certainly they've had time to develop a strategy in the intervening years since Roe v Wade, yet...
Redlining is illegal but here we are with black generational wealth about as low as it's been in the modern day.
I agree with you insofar as demublicans are reasonably effective at portraying themselves as the party for women and minorities but I have my doubts about the sincerity or efficacy of their "efforts" in my lifetime.
But, hey, gay folks can enter into a contract with the state now(marriage), so that's something.
Maybe the civil rights era Dems were a bit better at getting things done but for as long as I can remember it's been nothing but collusion with the Reaganites, front to back, all the way down.
Probably those who are not in collusion are somewhat more comically inept and vice versa. The truly evil Democrats may not be inept.
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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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MycoWeek
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Brian Jones]
#27576871 - 12/11/21 03:23 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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1. government are incompetent, they don't do more the more you give them.
2. it only works with monoculture small countries like Norway.
3. I don't want government to decide if I am too old, too sick to receive certain treatment. ie. if you got cancer and above certain age threshold, they ain't gonna treat you. This is how Canada is like.
4. I don't want to get taxed over 50%, i'd like to decide how I want to spend that money.
5. if medical mal-practice happened, I don't want government to decide a certain set of predetermined value for my life. Life is priceless in US, which is why insurance and medicine is so expensive.
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Brian Jones
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: MycoWeek] 1
#27576969 - 12/11/21 06:59 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Small as it applies to countries is a relative term. Both Norway and every other developed capitalist country in the world have socialized medicine. If we are right and they are wrong why do so many of them have higher per capita wealth and many other economically desirable indicators. If you have a lot of money you will subsidize others with healthcare for all, and everyone else benefits.
I get good Blue Cross coverage for $20 a week which is great, but that could be gone next week; COBRA is expensive, and only covers one year. Then an individual policy costs a lot more. If you have a lot of money your argument makes sense for your self interest. If you don't have a lot of money you are arguing for rich people's self interest. Maybe you're young and you think you will be lucky. Every other 'civilized' country doesn't leave it to luck.
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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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MycoWeek
Elementary Student
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Posts: 674
Loc: USA
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Brian Jones]
#27577269 - 12/11/21 12:17 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said:
Small as it applies to countries is a relative term. Both Norway and every other developed capitalist country in the world have socialized medicine. If we are right and they are wrong why do so many of them have higher per capita wealth and many other economically desirable indicators. If you have a lot of money you will subsidize others with healthcare for all, and everyone else benefits.
small is not a relative term, it means it's about the size of one of our smaller states, and less than 10 million population. In case of Norway, they only have 5.6 million people, where California along got close to 40 million.
They have higher per capita income for the same reason, because they are a small monoculture country, where everyone think and behaves pretty much the same. Everyone is OK with paying insane income taxes, but having everything taken care of.
it's great it works for them, but it simply won't work nearly as good for a giant country with 300+ million people from all over the world. When it's this big and diverse, government are not capable of handling it. after seeing them handling this whole COVID thing, are you really comfortable having those buffoons handling your health care with no competition?
Every developed country got it's pros and cons, no one is perfect, and you can't just pick and choose which element from that system, and apply it to a different country with completely different cultural make up and geography.
it's like you love sport cars for it's look and handle, but you want the mini van cargo capacity, it simply just doesn't work.
I was born and raised in Taiwan, and they have universal health care system, and the program is almost bankrupt. Another down side is, since the government is paying it, they set the amount of money doctors get paid, and require them to see certain amount of patients everyday. Result is overworked and underpaid doctors, and no one wanted to get into medicine because it's simply not worth the effort. The island is overflown with cosmetic surgeons, because that's the only segment where they can make money and not limited by government rules.
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koods
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Brian Jones]
#27577631 - 12/11/21 04:15 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said:
Small as it applies to countries is a relative term. Both Norway and every other developed capitalist country in the world have socialized medicine. If we are right and they are wrong why do so many of them have higher per capita wealth and many other economically desirable indicators. If you have a lot of money you will subsidize others with healthcare for all, and everyone else benefits.
Norway’s sovereign wealth pension fund is worth $1.5 trillion, or $250,000 per person. Most of that wealth is due to the socialist state owned petroleum company.
Quote:
They have higher per capita income for the same reason, because they are a small monoculture country, where everyone think and behaves pretty much the same.
Norway has 16.8% foreign born population. The US is 13.8%
Quote:
Another down side is, since the government is paying it, they set the amount of money doctors get paid, and require them to see certain amount of patients everyday
The exact same thing happens with our private insurance system. A doctor that accepts an insurance plan has agreed to set fees and is required to accept a minimum number of patients on that plan. Most primary care physicians in this country have over 3,000 patients under their care.
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
Edited by koods (12/11/21 04:27 PM)
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Patlal
You ask too many questions
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: MycoWeek] 3
#27577743 - 12/11/21 05:44 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MycoWeek said:
1. government are incompetent, they don't do more the more you give them.
2. it only works with monoculture small countries like Norway.
3. I don't want government to decide if I am too old, too sick to receive certain treatment. ie. if you got cancer and above certain age threshold, they ain't gonna treat you. This is how Canada is like.
4. I don't want to get taxed over 50%, i'd like to decide how I want to spend that money.
5. if medical mal-practice happened, I don't want government to decide a certain set of predetermined value for my life. Life is priceless in US, which is why insurance and medicine is so expensive.
1. Yes government are incompetence but their imcompetence will cost you less than what the corporate profit will cost you
2. China has universal healthcare and their population is 1.5 billion
3. In Canada you will recieve the full range of healthcare you need no matter how old or how sick you are. How grossly misinformed are you to even mention that we let our people die.
4. Right now you decide to spend several hundred if not thousanmds in health insurance. That money would stay in your bank account. Like I said earlier, private profits cost you more right now than what you would pay in taxes to fund universal health care
5. If there's medical malpractice than you sue and if you win you can get paid millions. Who the fuck taught you that hospitals would stop treating for any reason at all??? Insurance and medicine is expensive because corporation take a profit off healing you.
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Brian Jones
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Patlal]
#27577868 - 12/11/21 07:36 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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I've noticed that over 95% of Canadians have good things to say about their healthcare system, and Americans opposed to healthcare for all keep providing anecdotes about the Canadian system to show why we shouldn't have something like that. They have to cherrypick these stories from the small minority of Canadians who don't like their healthcare.
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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Patlal
You ask too many questions
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Brian Jones]
#27579068 - 12/12/21 06:38 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said:
I've noticed that over 95% of Canadians have good things to say about their healthcare system, and Americans opposed to healthcare for all keep providing anecdotes about the Canadian system to show why we shouldn't have something like that. They have to cherrypick these stories from the small minority of Canadians who don't like their healthcare.
There are flaws like anything else. But for someone to suggest that our healthcare system chooses who gets treated or not based on age and type of disease is disturbing at best. Who the hell would allow doctors to choose who lives and who dies? Everybody who has a medical issue get treated for as long as it takes.
Which American group is claiming that Canada kills its own citizens BTW?:
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MycoWeek
Elementary Student
Registered: 07/05/21
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Loc: USA
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Patlal]
#27579082 - 12/12/21 06:48 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said:
Quote:
Brian Jones said:
I've noticed that over 95% of Canadians have good things to say about their healthcare system, and Americans opposed to healthcare for all keep providing anecdotes about the Canadian system to show why we shouldn't have something like that. They have to cherrypick these stories from the small minority of Canadians who don't like their healthcare.
There are flaws like anything else. But for someone to suggest that our healthcare system chooses who gets treated or not based on age and type of disease is disturbing at best. Who the hell would allow doctors to choose who lives and who dies? Everybody who has a medical issue get treated for as long as it takes.
Which American group is claiming that Canada kills its own citizens BTW?:
your whole country only got the same amount of people as one of state California, which makes it possible to have a universal health care system.
I have plenty of co-workers who are Canadian citizen, and I've heard it on more than one account age is a factor for cancer patient to receive treatment or not.
Also, plenty of Canadian citizen come to US for emergent medical treatment, because the waiting line is too long in Canada.
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MycoWeek
Elementary Student
Registered: 07/05/21
Posts: 674
Loc: USA
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Patlal]
#27579092 - 12/12/21 06:56 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said:
Quote:
MycoWeek said:
1. government are incompetent, they don't do more the more you give them.
2. it only works with monoculture small countries like Norway.
3. I don't want government to decide if I am too old, too sick to receive certain treatment. ie. if you got cancer and above certain age threshold, they ain't gonna treat you. This is how Canada is like.
4. I don't want to get taxed over 50%, i'd like to decide how I want to spend that money.
5. if medical mal-practice happened, I don't want government to decide a certain set of predetermined value for my life. Life is priceless in US, which is why insurance and medicine is so expensive.
1. Yes government are incompetence but their imcompetence will cost you less than what the corporate profit will cost you
2. China has universal healthcare and their population is 1.5 billion
3. In Canada you will recieve the full range of healthcare you need no matter how old or how sick you are. How grossly misinformed are you to even mention that we let our people die.
4. Right now you decide to spend several hundred if not thousanmds in health insurance. That money would stay in your bank account. Like I said earlier, private profits cost you more right now than what you would pay in taxes to fund universal health care
5. If there's medical malpractice than you sue and if you win you can get paid millions. Who the fuck taught you that hospitals would stop treating for any reason at all??? Insurance and medicine is expensive because corporation take a profit off healing you.
1. your government is so competent, most of your educated citizens fled to US to get a job instead of staying there. and let's not even start with the whole opioids pandemic in Vancouver BC.
2. HA. having a universal health care system doesn't mean it's good. They kill people to harvest their organ, and you actually believe they have a good health care program to take care their citizens?
3. I learned this from multiple baby boomer coworkers, they may be bullshitting, but you can have a read here from a Canadian source. This is a quick search, but I can easily find dozens of similar report.
4. You don't get to keep any of the supposedly "saved money", your money got taxed right away from your paycheck.
5. show me a case of Canadian citizen sues government program for millions of dollars. it simply doesn't happen like in US where our live doesn't have a pre determined number attached to it.
Your superior health care program can't even take care the poor drug addicted people in Vancouver BC, not offering life extending treatment to older cancer patient, and you only have 40 million people to deal with; yet, you expect US government to take care 400 million people?
Edited by MycoWeek (12/12/21 06:59 PM)
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Brian Jones
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: MycoWeek]
#27579721 - 12/13/21 08:54 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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The U.S. GDP is well over 12 times Canada's. We could afford healthcare if we didn't spend all our money on nuclear weapons and subsidizing billionaires.
"They kill people to harvest their organs" is a bizarre interpretation of Canada's right to die law. If somebody is going to be dead anyway, should they be prevented from consenting to donate their organs? Their laws on this are full of safeguards and informed consent clauses.
Since you like to keep bringing up population differences, here's some data on the opioid crisis. The two Canadian provinces with with the highest death rates are British Columbia with 30.6 per 100,000 and Alberta with 18.0 per 100,000. The two states with the highest fatalities are West Virginia with 57.8 per 100,000 and Ohio with 46.3 per 100,000.
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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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The Ecstatic
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Brian Jones]
#27580845 - 12/14/21 07:15 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Americans care more about the sanctity of death than the sanctity of life.
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Kryptos
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27580909 - 12/14/21 08:52 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Only certain kinds of death.
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Brian Jones
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Re: What's the argument against universal healthcare in the US [Re: Kryptos]
#27580971 - 12/14/21 10:02 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes, primarily the fetus and the capital murderer. So sanctity of life and death get reversed 180 degrees by the political poles.
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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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