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InvisibleSclorch
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Just Some Questions
    #2614319 - 04/29/04 12:47 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

1. Must everything have a cause?
2. a. If yes - Isn't that a HUGE assumption?
b. If no - Okay, if something "just is," then must it have a specific purpose?
3. If there is an intention (due to God's will or whatever) behind everything, then are you not assuming that determinism is true?
4. If determinism is true, does that not negate the concept of meaning and purpose altogether? I mean, this would mean that free will does not exist, that there is an absolute frame of reference, that meaning is set in stone, and so on and so forth.


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2614464 - 04/29/04 01:23 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

You got high, it was caused by the marijuana... We know some things are set in stone., or stoned...  :stoned:

Heres my question: What if you took number two and said "just isnt"... what then
?


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What?

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OfflineFrog
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2614489 - 04/29/04 01:32 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
1. Must everything have a cause?
2. a. If yes - Isn't that a HUGE assumption?




I'm not sure yet that absolutely everything has a cause, or reason, but I think most things do. Could be that some things are just coincidence, but I don't think there are a lot.

Quote:

b. If no - Okay, if something "just is," then must it have a specific purpose?




This seems to be the same question as #1.

Quote:

3. If there is an intention (due to God's will or whatever) behind everything, then are you not assuming that determinism is true?




Not necessarily. If God intends something, people have to choose to obey God's will. We still have free choice whether to even look for the signs showing evidence of God's will, and then, when/if we see them, choose to follow them and/or obey them.

Quote:

4. If determinism is true, does that not negate the concept of meaning and purpose altogether? I mean, this would mean that free will does not exist, that there is an absolute frame of reference, that meaning is set in stone, and so on and so forth.




Well, see my answer to #3.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2614704 - 04/29/04 02:17 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

1. yes
2. a. i have never seen or heard of something that did not have a cause...but i'll limit that to "our universe" just to be safe :wink:
3. if the intention is for all existence then we would have only tiny impacts on the total. as individuals we would seem to have free-will and live our lives more or less as we choose, but the overal flow of things remains the same, on the scales of all creation.
4. see #3. aren't you assuming that each of our individual lives has a profound impact on the overall picture of Creation?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2614787 - 04/29/04 02:40 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Recognizing one's belief in strong causality is the first step to recovery.

Quit deluding yourselves, ye pattern-recognizing organisms!


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2614819 - 04/29/04 02:49 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I think if everything had a cause, there would also be some sort of 'master plan', but I do not think every action has a cause. But that brings up the question, how did these products come from seemingly nowhere without stimuli imput? how can you have the cause without something to manifest its effects?

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2615105 - 04/29/04 05:35 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

We have the possibility of semantic confusion here.

Question 1 -- "Must everything have a cause" needs clarification. What do you mean by every thing? If you refer merely to actions performed by entities, then yes, all actions of entities have antecedent causes.

But if you mean by every thing the very stuff of which the ultimate constituents of each entity is composed (quarks or whatever), then no, quarks did not necessarily have to be caused to spring into existence. They might always have existed.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2615120 - 04/29/04 06:03 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

what if there is a reason for everything that happens to us in our lives, but it is because of us that they happen?

and what if nothing is set in stone, but there is a master plan and this plans "blueprints" are written by us as we go with the choices we make.  we pave our own destiny with our choices(including thoughts :shocked:) and the plan is fit to tie in with all of our choices as a whole as we go throughout life together....so no matter what all is perfect for all of us all the time.

now check this shit out...time doesnt exsist, right?  so you would think ok if that is true then that means all is happening at once and so therefore everything is known NOW, so nothing can possibly change...BUT...what about when you time travel...you change one little thing in the past and it changes the entire future, or the future is rewritten.  So then is it hard to swollow what i just said above about us paving our own destinies?  If we can know the future, then that means we can change it. and if we can change the future, that means nothing is set in stone and we definitely have to have free will and have a choice to make whatever choice we damn well please, we are not robots being controlled unknowingly.

makes sense to me  :smile2:

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Anonymous

Re: Just Some Questions [Re: ]
    #2615126 - 04/29/04 06:08 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

man, everything revolves around Love. :heart:  Thats all that there actually is, everything else is just an illusion....

i wish everybody knew this :heart: :heart: :heart:

everything is a test of your love, think about it.. :3rd_eye:

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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2615755 - 04/29/04 10:36 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Can you give examples of phenomena that do not have causes? Please explain


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: ]
    #2615787 - 04/29/04 10:44 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

pinksharkmark: We have the possibility of semantic confusion here.

But if you mean by every thing the very stuff of which the ultimate constituents of each entity is composed (quarks or whatever), then no, quarks did not necessarily have to be caused to spring into existence. They might always have existed.


The latter is closer to what I meant.

Kottonmouth: and what if nothing is set in stone, but there is a master plan and this plans "blueprints" are written by us as we go with the choices we make. we pave our own destiny with our choices(including thoughts ) and the plan is fit to tie in with all of our choices as a whole as we go throughout life together....so no matter what all is perfect for all of us all the time.

I can honestly say that this makes absolutely no sense. Can you rephrase your point?

now check this shit out...time doesnt exist, right? so you would think ok if that is true then that means all is happening at once and so therefore everything is known NOW, so nothing can possibly change...

So now time doesn't exist? This is pseudoscience tripe.

BUT...what about when you time travel...you change one little thing in the past and it changes the entire future, or the future is rewritten.

What?! Seriously... take a college-level physics class. This is malarky until proven otherwise.

So then is it hard to swollow what i just said above about us paving our own destinies?

Yes. And in the future, know that you can't just say that the proven physical rules of reality don't exist in order to prove a philosophical point. The sun hasn't burned out... your head is merely buried in the sand.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2615825 - 04/29/04 10:52 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

To effectively argue your position, you need to only provide one example of something that does not have a cause.

That sounds easy enough!


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2615861 - 04/29/04 11:02 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SpecialEd said:
Can you give examples of phenomena that do not have causes? Please explain




There are a few situations where causes are backwards-looking. But my problem is not really with cause and effect... it's with strong causality (see Heisenberg).


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2615872 - 04/29/04 11:05 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

There are a few situations where causes are backwards-looking.

Example?

But my problem is not really with cause and effect... it's with strong causality (see Heisenberg).

I think a small change in the past makes a huge change in the future.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Edited by trendal (04/29/04 11:08 AM)

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2615885 - 04/29/04 11:09 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

To effectively argue your position, you need to only provide one example of something that does not have a cause.

That sounds easy enough!


Quarks often disappear and appear with NO cause. Of course, one could argue that there is merely no apparent cause. However, they would then have the burden of proof in finding the cause.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2615900 - 04/29/04 11:13 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quarks often disappear and appear with NO cause.

Are you sure that's true? Quarks decay into other particles, but I don't think they just "disappear".


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlinecosmicchic
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: ]
    #2615961 - 04/29/04 11:33 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Kotton Mouth!

I just loved your first two replies here! I'm totally there with ya!

Love,
Cindy

This is a great thread by the way!

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: trendal]
    #2615964 - 04/29/04 11:33 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I'm going to have to get back with you. I'll check my shelves... too much crap on internet searches. Don't expect an answer soon... as the forum is low priority for me right now. M'kay?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2615972 - 04/29/04 11:37 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

In the meantime... Louis Savain's site.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2615973 - 04/29/04 11:37 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Are you thinking of virtual particles? They appear then disappear constantly on very small scales.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Anonymous

Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2617040 - 04/29/04 03:04 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I can honestly say that this makes absolutely no sense. Can you rephrase your point?




i think its just too much for ya man, im not even going to try, sorry.  We do not time travel inbody, so physics doesnt know what im talking about either.  Time does not exsist.  But nothing is set in stone.  :tongue:  boggles ya brain doesnt it, cuz it doesnt make any sense to u.

Cindy, thank you, im glad you understood and liked what i said  :heart:

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: trendal]
    #2619785 - 04/30/04 02:07 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Nope, I'm definitely thinking of quarks. They disappear (not decay) and reappear without warning. They do other weird shit, too (like they seem to "know" when you're observing them), but that's a bit off topic.

I tell ya what... how about we just throw out the current concept of cause and effect altogether?! Then we can throw out the question of free will vs. determinism.

Will is not completely random, nor is it completely predetermined by [whatever et al]. It creates a void of potential and then fills it. The will itself is the creator and the void is filled via a mechanism of cause and effect.

So the next question is... what is will?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: ]
    #2619789 - 04/30/04 02:12 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kottonmouth said:
Quote:

I can honestly say that this makes absolutely no sense. Can you rephrase your point?



i think its just too much for ya man, im not even going to try, sorry.  We do not time travel inbody, so physics doesnt know what im talking about either.  Time does not exsist.  But nothing is set in stone.  :tongue:  boggles ya brain doesnt it, cuz it doesnt make any sense to u.



This kind of masturbatory vagueness is useless to me.
Stay out of this thread if you're not even going to try.
I've got no time for bullshit.  :wink:


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Anonymous

Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2620252 - 04/30/04 06:48 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I've got no time for bullshit.




then why did you reply?

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: ]
    #2621396 - 04/30/04 12:38 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kottonmouth said:
Quote:

I've got no time for bullshit.




then why did you reply?



Because I'd really like a straight answer from you.
I want CLARIFICATION. I want to understand EXACTLY what your thoughts on the matter are. The problem lies in your articulation of those thoughts - unclear gobbledygook. I know you think that I "just don't get it" or whatever... but that's not it at all. Your words aren't coherent enough for me to understand you.

Capiche?


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2622574 - 04/30/04 04:33 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

quarks do decay, and furthermore quarks are fundamental particles. how are they jsut to disappear. this owould mean the charge of the proton and neutron would change (which doesn't make sense of the definition of a neatron to begin with). sources????

plus the mass of the proton would be constantly changing too which would f-up the atomic mass of the individual atoms.


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2622591 - 04/30/04 04:36 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

what is will?




he is my friend...

o, sorry. ability?


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What?

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: kaiowas]
    #2622902 - 04/30/04 05:56 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Sources won't come, on this one :smirk:

Quarks, and all sub-atomic particles, do some very "crazy" things...when compared to what happens on our everyday macroscopic scales. The world of quantum mechanics is fairly well understood, however, so I don't see a reason to throw out cause and effect yet.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: trendal]
    #2622939 - 04/30/04 06:07 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

true, but the statement that they fizzle out is kind of nuts to me. I've never heard of that before!


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: kaiowas]
    #2622954 - 04/30/04 06:10 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Neither have I!

Particles can appear from the vacuum and then quickly dissapear again...but I have not heard of particles dissapearing on their own. I think that would violate the conservation of energy Law.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: trendal]
    #2623142 - 04/30/04 07:21 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

well maybe not... if what sclorch said is true... about them "re appearing" that might mean that while some particles are dying, new ones are being born.. so to speak. a recycling of the energy perhaps?


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What?

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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2623163 - 04/30/04 07:28 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

see the thing with that is Zero, is that in particle physics, there is matter, and anti-matter (something with the opposite charge). if one were to change, so woudl the other. unles the particles are constantly charging and recharging themselves into equilibrium, but then that would still be dictate under cause and effect. I think the appearing and reappearing is referring to what scientists can test, not that thye do this actually.

soay a proton has a charge of +1, well quarks will have a charge of something like (+2/3)

take this

proton of hydroge: quarks would be (and this is VERY rough btw) (2/3+)-(2/3+)-(2/3-) the dash inbetween the numbers symbolizes connections. notice the (-2/3) is the anti-quark. so if on fizzles out then the other must too, but if that happens that charge on the proton would be different. see what i mean?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2623170 - 04/30/04 07:30 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Well that sort of thing happens all the time...but it's not the particle "dissapearing", it changes from one particle into another particle via an intermediate force-carrier particle.

It's not like the quarks (or any other particle) just "dissapears" and we don't have any idea where it went...we can predict what the particle will change into (ie: what force-carrier(s) it will become and what particle(s) those force-carrier(s) will decay into) and can track the transformation in particle accelerator experiments.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: trendal]
    #2624451 - 05/01/04 02:09 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

I will get you a source. I'm not sure if I will find it online, though. If I have time, I might hit the library sometime this week (the big/good one is across town). However... it's graduation time and that means me having to hang out with my girlfriend at the beach house her parents rented for the next week. I know I know... what a bummer, eh? Maybe I'll feel like doing the library thing this wednesday, as that's the soonest I COULD go.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2624552 - 05/01/04 03:50 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

sweet, I'll go and check it out as well has this would prove most interesting.  if it has to relate to science in most ways it'll be sweet to investigate to begin with. 
:jazzman: :jazzman:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2626159 - 05/01/04 01:37 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Assuming the examples you provided were true, that some quarks behave in manners that bear no reason or cause, what is the translation to human life. What does that mean to you in your daily struggles?


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2627781 - 05/02/04 11:51 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
1.  Must everything have a cause?
2.  a. If yes - Isn't that a HUGE assumption?
    b. If no - Okay, if something "just is," then must it have a specific purpose?
3.  If there is an intention (due to God's will or whatever) behind everything, then are you not assuming that determinism is true?
4.  If determinism is true, does that not negate the concept of meaning and purpose altogether?  I mean, this would mean that free will does not exist, that there is an absolute frame of reference, that meaning is set in stone, and so on and so forth.




I ain't gonna touch your particle physics shizzle, or else my mind'll fizzle, but here's my answer to your first questions...

I believe everything HAS a cause - that cause can be anything...  A tree falls because it has decayed, it has decayed because the air is poisoned by man, the air was poisened because we were too selfish to conserve our resources..  so on and so forth.  Does anything happen WITHOUT cause?  I don't think so..  it IS a HUGE assumption, but there's no proof otherwise, minus your quarks, which I won't get into, as, like I said...

This leaves the Universe - what is it's cause - not sure exactly, but I'm assuming "Everything" - The Universe, was caused by "Nothing" in it's place.  You need Balance - Yin & Yang - You can't have one without the other. :wink:

If the universe is ever expanding, pushing aside nothingness, then nothingness cannot be destroyed..  Is it possible the nothingness has made it's way into our heads, from outer space to inner space, causing us to be ignorant to the truth?


I think, therefor I'm not.


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.

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Offlinephynai
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2627804 - 05/02/04 11:58 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

1. Must everything have a cause?
2. a. If yes - Isn't that a HUGE assumption?
b. If no - Okay, if something "just is," then must it have a specific purpose?





A quote "For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction", for those who can relate.

In society, cause may not be present due to sub-conscience ideas possessed by others; although, the effect may be greatly impact others of the culture.

In science, I believe effect is caused by immeasurable variables.

Quote:

3. If there is an intention (due to God's will or whatever) behind everything, then are you not assuming that determinism is true?





In a purely direct current world, it is; the rules of the universe would be, if there are rules at all in such state. When electrons orbit, light cycles change, neurons alternate transmission, etc.: appearances of life are formed. Life is cyclic, it hertz. We as life can not be all. We are a variable of free will trapped in a self determined universe.

Quote:

4. If determinism is true, does that not negate the concept of meaning and purpose altogether? I mean, this would mean that free will does not exist, that there is an absolute frame of reference, that meaning is set in stone, and so on and so forth.




Believing both free will and determination are true universally, ones definition of an end would determine purpose. Life is free will, but not all is life. Elements are more determined in their actions.

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