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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Just Some Questions
    #2614319 - 04/29/04 02:47 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

1. Must everything have a cause?
2. a. If yes - Isn't that a HUGE assumption?
b. If no - Okay, if something "just is," then must it have a specific purpose?
3. If there is an intention (due to God's will or whatever) behind everything, then are you not assuming that determinism is true?
4. If determinism is true, does that not negate the concept of meaning and purpose altogether? I mean, this would mean that free will does not exist, that there is an absolute frame of reference, that meaning is set in stone, and so on and so forth.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2614464 - 04/29/04 03:23 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

You got high, it was caused by the marijuana... We know some things are set in stone., or stoned...  :stoned:

Heres my question: What if you took number two and said "just isnt"... what then
?


--------------------
What?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2614489 - 04/29/04 03:32 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
1. Must everything have a cause?
2. a. If yes - Isn't that a HUGE assumption?




I'm not sure yet that absolutely everything has a cause, or reason, but I think most things do. Could be that some things are just coincidence, but I don't think there are a lot.

Quote:

b. If no - Okay, if something "just is," then must it have a specific purpose?




This seems to be the same question as #1.

Quote:

3. If there is an intention (due to God's will or whatever) behind everything, then are you not assuming that determinism is true?




Not necessarily. If God intends something, people have to choose to obey God's will. We still have free choice whether to even look for the signs showing evidence of God's will, and then, when/if we see them, choose to follow them and/or obey them.

Quote:

4. If determinism is true, does that not negate the concept of meaning and purpose altogether? I mean, this would mean that free will does not exist, that there is an absolute frame of reference, that meaning is set in stone, and so on and so forth.




Well, see my answer to #3.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2614704 - 04/29/04 04:17 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

1. yes
2. a. i have never seen or heard of something that did not have a cause...but i'll limit that to "our universe" just to be safe :wink:
3. if the intention is for all existence then we would have only tiny impacts on the total. as individuals we would seem to have free-will and live our lives more or less as we choose, but the overal flow of things remains the same, on the scales of all creation.
4. see #3. aren't you assuming that each of our individual lives has a profound impact on the overall picture of Creation?


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2614787 - 04/29/04 04:40 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Recognizing one's belief in strong causality is the first step to recovery.

Quit deluding yourselves, ye pattern-recognizing organisms!


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2614819 - 04/29/04 04:49 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think if everything had a cause, there would also be some sort of 'master plan', but I do not think every action has a cause. But that brings up the question, how did these products come from seemingly nowhere without stimuli imput? how can you have the cause without something to manifest its effects?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2615105 - 04/29/04 07:35 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

We have the possibility of semantic confusion here.

Question 1 -- "Must everything have a cause" needs clarification. What do you mean by every thing? If you refer merely to actions performed by entities, then yes, all actions of entities have antecedent causes.

But if you mean by every thing the very stuff of which the ultimate constituents of each entity is composed (quarks or whatever), then no, quarks did not necessarily have to be caused to spring into existence. They might always have existed.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2615120 - 04/29/04 08:03 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

what if there is a reason for everything that happens to us in our lives, but it is because of us that they happen?

and what if nothing is set in stone, but there is a master plan and this plans "blueprints" are written by us as we go with the choices we make.  we pave our own destiny with our choices(including thoughts :shocked:) and the plan is fit to tie in with all of our choices as a whole as we go throughout life together....so no matter what all is perfect for all of us all the time.

now check this shit out...time doesnt exsist, right?  so you would think ok if that is true then that means all is happening at once and so therefore everything is known NOW, so nothing can possibly change...BUT...what about when you time travel...you change one little thing in the past and it changes the entire future, or the future is rewritten.  So then is it hard to swollow what i just said above about us paving our own destinies?  If we can know the future, then that means we can change it. and if we can change the future, that means nothing is set in stone and we definitely have to have free will and have a choice to make whatever choice we damn well please, we are not robots being controlled unknowingly.

makes sense to me  :smile2:


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Anonymous

Re: Just Some Questions [Re: ]
    #2615126 - 04/29/04 08:08 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

man, everything revolves around Love. :heart:  Thats all that there actually is, everything else is just an illusion....

i wish everybody knew this :heart: :heart: :heart:

everything is a test of your love, think about it.. :3rd_eye:


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2615755 - 04/29/04 12:36 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Can you give examples of phenomena that do not have causes? Please explain


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: ]
    #2615787 - 04/29/04 12:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

pinksharkmark: We have the possibility of semantic confusion here.

But if you mean by every thing the very stuff of which the ultimate constituents of each entity is composed (quarks or whatever), then no, quarks did not necessarily have to be caused to spring into existence. They might always have existed.


The latter is closer to what I meant.

Kottonmouth: and what if nothing is set in stone, but there is a master plan and this plans "blueprints" are written by us as we go with the choices we make. we pave our own destiny with our choices(including thoughts ) and the plan is fit to tie in with all of our choices as a whole as we go throughout life together....so no matter what all is perfect for all of us all the time.

I can honestly say that this makes absolutely no sense. Can you rephrase your point?

now check this shit out...time doesnt exist, right? so you would think ok if that is true then that means all is happening at once and so therefore everything is known NOW, so nothing can possibly change...

So now time doesn't exist? This is pseudoscience tripe.

BUT...what about when you time travel...you change one little thing in the past and it changes the entire future, or the future is rewritten.

What?! Seriously... take a college-level physics class. This is malarky until proven otherwise.

So then is it hard to swollow what i just said above about us paving our own destinies?

Yes. And in the future, know that you can't just say that the proven physical rules of reality don't exist in order to prove a philosophical point. The sun hasn't burned out... your head is merely buried in the sand.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2615825 - 04/29/04 12:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

To effectively argue your position, you need to only provide one example of something that does not have a cause.

That sounds easy enough!


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2615861 - 04/29/04 01:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SpecialEd said:
Can you give examples of phenomena that do not have causes? Please explain




There are a few situations where causes are backwards-looking. But my problem is not really with cause and effect... it's with strong causality (see Heisenberg).


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2615872 - 04/29/04 01:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

There are a few situations where causes are backwards-looking.

Example?

But my problem is not really with cause and effect... it's with strong causality (see Heisenberg).

I think a small change in the past makes a huge change in the future.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


Edited by trendal (04/29/04 01:08 PM)


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Just Some Questions [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2615885 - 04/29/04 01:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

To effectively argue your position, you need to only provide one example of something that does not have a cause.

That sounds easy enough!


Quarks often disappear and appear with NO cause. Of course, one could argue that there is merely no apparent cause. However, they would then have the burden of proof in finding the cause.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2615900 - 04/29/04 01:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quarks often disappear and appear with NO cause.

Are you sure that's true? Quarks decay into other particles, but I don't think they just "disappear".


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Offlinecosmicchic
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: ]
    #2615961 - 04/29/04 01:33 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Kotton Mouth!

I just loved your first two replies here! I'm totally there with ya!

Love,
Cindy

This is a great thread by the way!


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
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Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Just Some Questions [Re: trendal]
    #2615964 - 04/29/04 01:33 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I'm going to have to get back with you. I'll check my shelves... too much crap on internet searches. Don't expect an answer soon... as the forum is low priority for me right now. M'kay?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2615972 - 04/29/04 01:37 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

In the meantime... Louis Savain's site.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Just Some Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2615973 - 04/29/04 01:37 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Are you thinking of virtual particles? They appear then disappear constantly on very small scales.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
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