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SocalJosh
Wood Ninja



Registered: 06/14/19
Posts: 664
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Pan cintulus
#26134287 - 08/13/19 06:25 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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I keep finding these but this group was picture perfect.

Happy hunting out there!!
-------------------- Take it easy man.... But take it!
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Subfinder
Wildlife enthusiast


Registered: 07/01/18
Posts: 1,025
Loc: Pennsylvania
Last seen: 10 months, 6 days
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Check for sclerotia. Been finding a lot this year.
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The lurker


Registered: 12/19/16
Posts: 1,085
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Those are some thick ones, nice photos 
Quote:
Subfinder said: Check for sclerotia. Been finding a lot this year.
What kind of areas do you find these in?? All of the true cinctulus I find are in cow poop not sure if I should look somewhere else for the sclerotia. I’m in se us if you’d think that would make any differences
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SocalJosh
Wood Ninja



Registered: 06/14/19
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Oh no shit? I didn’t know they formed sclerotia.. gonna have to look into that.
These are found in a very well curated private garden. Southern Ca. I’m assuming there is some kind of manure in the mulch. Or hay/straw mixed into the mulch.
-------------------- Take it easy man.... But take it!
Edited by SocalJosh (08/13/19 11:37 PM)
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Subfinder
Wildlife enthusiast


Registered: 07/01/18
Posts: 1,025
Loc: Pennsylvania
Last seen: 10 months, 6 days
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Check directly under the largest fruit and big clusters. The stones are attached to wood, leaves, or straw/hay for the most part, very small and turn blue when handled. I usually start finding sclerotia in late july when things get hotter and dry.
Apparently I'm the first person to find them in the wild.
I started a thread a couple days ago but no one seemed to notice or care, which I find odd on a forum that is all about new discoveries and being on the leading edge of mycology.
Edited by Subfinder (08/14/19 04:39 AM)
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TheDuder
Mushroom Hunter



Registered: 11/07/16
Posts: 2,544
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Those don't really look like panaeolus cinctulus to me
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|-------------------[Ps. Azurescens]------------------------------------------[Ps. Semilanceata]--------------------------------------------[Ps. Allenii]------------------------|
|--------------[Ps. Ovoideocystidiata]------------------------------------------[Ps. Stuntzii]--------------------------------------------[Ps. Baeocystis]----------------------|
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The lurker


Registered: 12/19/16
Posts: 1,085
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Re: Pan cintulus [Re: TheDuder]
#26135105 - 08/14/19 09:10 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
TheDuder said: Those don't really look like panaeolus cinctulus to me 
How so? Check out those stems, I’m pretty confident they’d have some nice grayish-Black gills.
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SocalJosh
Wood Ninja



Registered: 06/14/19
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These are for sure cintulus check my gallery for other pics. These specimens are really wet in this photo which is why they are super dark.
-------------------- Take it easy man.... But take it!
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Doug295
Stranger

Registered: 01/13/19
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Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Panaeolus bisporus. I highly recommend logging this observation on mushroomobserver.org...that would be helpful to the myco community since these are relatively rare but many finds in SoCal so no surprise.
Cool find!
Cheers,
D
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Cawtz
Stranger
Registered: 11/13/18
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Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
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Re: Pan cintulus [Re: Doug295]
#26135958 - 08/14/19 04:15 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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I feel like Doug is spot on, personally
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The lurker


Registered: 12/19/16
Posts: 1,085
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Re: Pan cintulus [Re: Cawtz]
#26135973 - 08/14/19 04:24 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Doug295 said: Panaeolus bisporus. I highly recommend logging this observation on mushroomobserver.org...that would be helpful to the myco community since these are relatively rare but many finds in SoCal so no surprise.
Cool find!
Cheers,
D
Quote:
Cawtz said: I feel like Doug is spot on, personally
Probably gonna need a microscope for that, could be wrong
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SocalJosh
Wood Ninja



Registered: 06/14/19
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Idk guys I mean I originally had it at bisporus but Alan Rockefeller got on and said it was cinctulus. Which I have to say the two are very very similar. Except for potency. Bisporus is supposed to be way way more potent. 1-2 dry grams. But I can tell you from eating these that the mushrooms in question are not bisporus they would have been way way stronger than what I felt on 3.8 dry grams IMO. I fear these are classic Pan subbs/cincts.
-------------------- Take it easy man.... But take it!
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Doug295
Stranger

Registered: 01/13/19
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Obviously without scoping these, it's all speculation/estimation. However, just to elaborate why I think these are bisporus, here are the specific characteristics in Gerhardt's published description (1996) that these seem to have which are not in the the published description of cinctulus:
Lead-gray coloration of cap Whitish-gray coloration of cap (as opposed to just "whitish when dry") Translucent characteristic of stems Glabrous cap (smooth/without hair/fibrils)
The caps also have a peculiar "pitted" look/texture in spots that matches the MO observations I have looked at. The contrast of the grayish/buff cap color with the ochre/reddish brown stems also seems to match and seems kind of unique.
D
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SocalJosh
Wood Ninja



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Posts: 664
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: Pan cintulus [Re: Doug295]
#26136239 - 08/14/19 07:19 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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I would agree with all of that. What would I be looking for in a microscope? What about the potency issue? Isn’t bisporus supposed to be pretty potent?
-------------------- Take it easy man.... But take it!
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The lurker


Registered: 12/19/16
Posts: 1,085
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Re: Pan cintulus [Re: Doug295]
#26136325 - 08/14/19 08:07 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Doug295 said: Obviously without scoping these, it's all speculation/estimation. However, just to elaborate why I think these are bisporus, here are the specific characteristics in Gerhardt's published description (1996) that these seem to have which are not in the the published description of cinctulus:
Lead-gray coloration of cap Whitish-gray coloration of cap (as opposed to just "whitish when dry") Translucent characteristic of stems Glabrous cap (smooth/without hair/fibrils)
The caps also have a peculiar "pitted" look/texture in spots that matches the MO observations I have looked at. The contrast of the grayish/buff cap color with the ochre/reddish brown stems also seems to match and seems kind of unique.
D
But couldn’t all of these characteristics be attributed to cinctulus? I don’t see the differentiation. I also have heard something lately around here (don’t know much about it) that the ”cinctulus” people find in yards vs other substrates, or maybe areas may be different species. I would love to know the specifics on this
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Doug295
Stranger

Registered: 01/13/19
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Quote:
The lurker said:
Quote:
Doug295 said: Obviously without scoping these, it's all speculation/estimation. However, just to elaborate why I think these are bisporus, here are the specific characteristics in Gerhardt's published description (1996) that these seem to have which are not in the the published description of cinctulus:
Lead-gray coloration of cap Whitish-gray coloration of cap (as opposed to just "whitish when dry") Translucent characteristic of stems Glabrous cap (smooth/without hair/fibrils)
The caps also have a peculiar "pitted" look/texture in spots that matches the MO observations I have looked at. The contrast of the grayish/buff cap color with the ochre/reddish brown stems also seems to match and seems kind of unique.
D
But couldn’t all of these characteristics be attributed to cinctulus? I don’t see the differentiation. I also have heard something lately around here (don’t know much about it) that the ”cinctulus” people find in yards vs other substrates, or maybe areas may be different species. I would love to know the specifics on this
Lurker: No, my whole point is those specific characteristics are listed in the published scientific descriptions of bisporus but not for cinctulus. Of course that doesn't mean you won't find some exceptions, but in lieu of microscopy or genetic sequencing, these published descriptions are what we have to go off if that makes sense. Regarding the trending belief that true cinctulus does not grow in just plain old grass, but only in poo/compost/straw/garden soil, nothing has been "proven" but rather the genetic sequencing results have bolstered this idea somewhat, suggesting that those "grass cincts" are genetically distinct from true P. cinctulus, albeit to a small degree, and they look to be in some cases misidentified P. fimicola or what could be an undescribed species. I personally wouldn't be surprised if the "grass cincts" are in reality something akin to a subspecies of P. cinctulus, one that has slight adaptations to facilitate thriving in grass, e.g. downregulation of genes that control utilization of nitrogen/synthesis of active compounds, which would explain their lower potency.
SocalJosh: I have zero experience with microscopy, but as I understand it what you are looking for is for basidia that have mostly 2 spores, rarely 1 spored (cinctulus will have 2 and 4 spored basidia). Don't ask me WTF a basidia is LOL 
D
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SocalJosh
Wood Ninja



Registered: 06/14/19
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Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: Pan cintulus [Re: Doug295]
#26136473 - 08/14/19 10:38 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Lol a basidia is the micro-structure that holds the spore to the gill face I believe. My current scope only goes to 500x and I am pretty sure I need something in the 1000x to tell that :/
I really think my biggest determining fact is that these specific mushrooms are about as strong as a cinct should be Vs a bisporus which would be a lot more potent. As was stated the characteristics described could be interchangeable between species.
In my first bioassay of these I took 1 gram and felt very little. In the 3.8g trial I felt what I would consider a very light lvl3 trip. Someone brought up the fact that my dried specimens looked a little beat up, which may be effecting my potency. Regardless I feel like if it was a true P. bisporus then I would have really felt it even at the single dried gram.
-------------------- Take it easy man.... But take it!
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The lurker


Registered: 12/19/16
Posts: 1,085
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Re: Pan cintulus [Re: Doug295]
#26136730 - 08/15/19 07:20 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Doug295 said:
Quote:
The lurker said:
Quote:
Doug295 said: Obviously without scoping these, it's all speculation/estimation. However, just to elaborate why I think these are bisporus, here are the specific characteristics in Gerhardt's published description (1996) that these seem to have which are not in the the published description of cinctulus:
Lead-gray coloration of cap Whitish-gray coloration of cap (as opposed to just "whitish when dry") Translucent characteristic of stems Glabrous cap (smooth/without hair/fibrils)
The caps also have a peculiar "pitted" look/texture in spots that matches the MO observations I have looked at. The contrast of the grayish/buff cap color with the ochre/reddish brown stems also seems to match and seems kind of unique.
D
But couldn’t all of these characteristics be attributed to cinctulus? I don’t see the differentiation. I also have heard something lately around here (don’t know much about it) that the ”cinctulus” people find in yards vs other substrates, or maybe areas may be different species. I would love to know the specifics on this
Lurker: No, my whole point is those specific characteristics are listed in the published scientific descriptions of bisporus but not for cinctulus. Of course that doesn't mean you won't find some exceptions, but in lieu of microscopy or genetic sequencing, these published descriptions are what we have to go off if that makes sense. Regarding the trending belief that true cinctulus does not grow in just plain old grass, but only in poo/compost/straw/garden soil, nothing has been "proven" but rather the genetic sequencing results have bolstered this idea somewhat, suggesting that those "grass cincts" are genetically distinct from true P. cinctulus, albeit to a small degree, and they look to be in some cases misidentified P. fimicola or what could be an undescribed species. I personally wouldn't be surprised if the "grass cincts" are in reality something akin to a subspecies of P. cinctulus, one that has slight adaptations to facilitate thriving in grass, e.g. downregulation of genes that control utilization of nitrogen/synthesis of active compounds, which would explain their lower potency.
SocalJosh: I have zero experience with microscopy, but as I understand it what you are looking for is for basidia that have mostly 2 spores, rarely 1 spored (cinctulus will have 2 and 4 spored basidia). Don't ask me WTF a basidia is LOL 
D
Mate first off all those characteristics CAN be attributed to cinctulus whether that’s what’s written in published scientific descriptions or not is meaningless, cinctulus also matches those very vague descriptions.
Your point is meaningless if we need a microscope to POSITIVELY id this mushroom/species. Thats my point
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Edited by The lurker (08/15/19 07:31 AM)
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The lurker


Registered: 12/19/16
Posts: 1,085
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Quote:
SocalJosh said: Lol a basidia is the micro-structure that holds the spore to the gill face I believe. My current scope only goes to 500x and I am pretty sure I need something in the 1000x to tell that :/
I really think my biggest determining fact is that these specific mushrooms are about as strong as a cinct should be Vs a bisporus which would be a lot more potent. As was stated the characteristics described could be interchangeable between species.
In my first bioassay of these I took 1 gram and felt very little. In the 3.8g trial I felt what I would consider a very light lvl3 trip. Someone brought up the fact that my dried specimens looked a little beat up, which may be effecting my potency. Regardless I feel like if it was a true P. bisporus then I would have really felt it even at the single dried gram.
I’ve seen some photos of spores around 500x, it’s worth a shot
I can’t find a whole lot of info on Bisporus potency but I would imagine what you’re saying makes sense.
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