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The psychology of mysticism
    #26097899 -

I have been reading a little about these mystic societies like Golden Dawn, Rosecrucians etc ...

It makes little sense to me, but I also think that this is the point. From my understanding, mysticism is not at all about logic, it is about the illogical - unleashing the imaginative capabilities of the mind. And one does this by highly irrational thinking, meaning: one breaks down all ones beliefs, the logic, the rationality and so on.

Recently I have been writing, and I have been questioning all that I write. Like what is really the purpose of the subject, verb, and object, and I started to break it all down, i wanted to write something were the syntax of our language is only there as a convention, but the story I tell do not depend on it. Anyways, enough about that ...

So then, I smoked some marijuhana and listened to Beethoven and then Vangelis' space age music. I've never understood what Beethoven was trying to get at with his music, but this time I understood everything, I understood each note as if I could see the music, see the soul of the composer. And what Beethoven was "singing" about was God. So, I thought that's really impressive, but I am not a Christian. I read the first sentence of the Bible and got it. Where it stands: "God is the word, and the word was God ...". So what does this mean? It means that God is the totality that is created by our language that is divided up in the subject, the verb and the object. SO! God is a controll system. We see the world in terms of our language, as us, as them, as actions, and as objects.

But I was something else, I was more in a Zen kind of state. Seeing everything as an happening, happening now. The ego only exists on a conventional basis.

Anyways.

I listenend to Vangelis, and suddenly I was catapulted into space. And I thought, well, this is really impressive, and wow! it really goes high up when you are in space.

Anyways ... I forgot what the point of this post was.

I think what I am getting at, is that if you condition your mind to think in language, like any kind of religion, it only creates these blockages in your imagination. And imagination I believe is how the world manifests on a ultimate and on a not so ultimate level. Like if I start a business, it is by imagination that I come up with a good bussiness idea etc... And it seems to me that the purpose of mysticism is to unblock the imagination by this nonsense kind of magical system. That is, a system that is so disorganized and irrational that it cannot even be called a system.

Any thoughts?

Edited by Hotdog from Space (07/09/19 11:03 AM)

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Hotdog from Space] * 1
    #26097969 -

all is reflection


:etjesus:

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: DontFearThePeepr]
    #26099099 -

Mysticism is just encroaching back upon our divinity, our godliness, since we are all gods/goddesses inhabiting finite outer shells for the moment.

We can awaken the divine within us in this life, regenerate the body, change the weather with our minds, and perceive all the infinite dimensions around us that lie on a frequency in perception.

Civilization has forgotten we are divinities. There may have been civilizations that knew, and lived in utopia, who knows, but we have got this far on the basis of luck and the birth of geniuses.


--------------------
Hostile humankind
Can't you see you're fucking blind?

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Hotdog from Space]
    #26101434 -

Congratulations on your #1 post! :congrats:


I think that you are conflating magick with mysticism. These come close in transcendental magick, theurgy, as written about in different contexts (like the theurgical magick of Moses vs. the thaumaturgical magick of Pharoah's magicians, or the theurgy of the Neoplatonist Iamblichus), but which ultimately remains asymptotically parallel and separate. Magick seeks to control existence, mysticism seeks to surrender to Ultimate Reality. God is not a "control system," God is shorthand for Ultimate Reality which is Absolute Freedom from limitation. It is the transcendental nature of Reality that imputes freedom to the human psyche, just the opposite of your conclusion. You are confusing God with God-concept. There is Ultimate Reality and there are insipid intellectual representations of Ultimate Reality. Of God nothing can be posited since God transcends all attributes and does not admit of multiplicity. God-concepts are rife with attributes.

Since you mention Zen, the Zen meme of 'the finger pointing to the Moon' is apt. When people take God-concepts for God, they are looking at the finger, not the Moon. The same applies to the Dharmakaya, which is why there is that other saying: "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." You will not meet the Buddha on the road any more than God-concepts are God. These are all idols not to be regarded as Reality. Zen rock gardens usually place a shapeless boulder in place of a Buddha statue for this reason, to confound misunderstanding about the formlessness and transcendental nature of Reality. Ignorant Christians similarly worship an imagined 1st century Jewish peasant as the Incarnation of God. If Iesous could be interviewed, he'd be horrified by the gross misunderstanding of his teachings. Part of a Triune Godhead?! :eek: That God-concept would offend the monotheistic Jewish wisdom-teacher! :yesnod: :lol:

As to your quote, John wrote the Prologue (Pro-Logos) 90-120 years after Iesous died. The original Greek word is Logos which has close to 20 meanings associated with it, but the translation as "Word" is unfortunate as many are confused by this. The Logos is the first manifestation of God according to the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria who lived contemporaneously with Iesous (if Iesous was a historical person). The author named John was clearly familiar with Philo's work on the Logos and began his gospel with some of it. John alone portrayed Iesous as God incarnate. Mark, Matthew and Luke (the Synoptic or 'same view') authors did not do this yet almost all Christians either don't know this or forget it. For the Synoptic authors, Iesous was 'a man anointed by God.' That is to say, anointed with oil, chrism, the basis for the title Christ (anointed). Language does shape our apprehension of existential reality but language cannot touch Ultimate Reality which defies description since it transcends existence utterly.

:peace:
MtG


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26102199 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
Congratulations on your #1 post! :congrats:


I think that you are conflating magick with mysticism. These come close in transcendental magick, theurgy, as written about in different contexts (like the theurgical magick of Moses vs. the thaumaturgical magick of Pharoah's magicians, or the theurgy of the Neoplatonist Iamblichus), but which ultimately remains asymptotically parallel and separate. Magick seeks to control existence, mysticism seeks to surrender to Ultimate Reality. God is not a "control system," God is shorthand for Ultimate Reality which is Absolute Freedom from limitation. It is the transcendental nature of Reality that imputes freedom to the human psyche, just the opposite of your conclusion. You are confusing God with God-concept. There is Ultimate Reality and there are insipid intellectual representations of Ultimate Reality. Of God nothing can be posited since God transcends all attributes and does not admit of multiplicity. God-concepts are rife with attributes.

Since you mention Zen, the Zen meme of 'the finger pointing to the Moon' is apt. When people take God-concepts for God, they are looking at the finger, not the Moon. The same applies to the Dharmakaya, which is why there is that other saying: "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." You will not meet the Buddha on the road any more than God-concepts are God. These are all idols not to be regarded as Reality. Zen rock gardens usually place a shapeless boulder in place of a Buddha statue for this reason, to confound misunderstanding about the formlessness and transcendental nature of Reality. Ignorant Christians similarly worship an imagined 1st century Jewish peasant as the Incarnation of God. If Iesous could be interviewed, he'd be horrified by the gross misunderstanding of his teachings. Part of a Triune Godhead?! :eek: That God-concept would offend the monotheistic Jewish wisdom-teacher! :yesnod: :lol:

As to your quote, John wrote the Prologue (Pro-Logos) 90-120 years after Iesous died. The original Greek word is Logos which has close to 20 meanings associated with it, but the translation as "Word" is unfortunate as many are confused by this. The Logos is the first manifestation of God according to the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria who lived contemporaneously with Iesous (if Iesous was a historical person). The author named John was clearly familiar with Philo's work on the Logos and began his gospel with some of it. John alone portrayed Iesous as God incarnate. Mark, Matthew and Luke (the Synoptic or 'same view') authors did not do this yet almost all Christians either don't know this or forget it. For the Synoptic authors, Iesous was 'a man anointed by God.' That is to say, anointed with oil, chrism, the basis for the title Christ (anointed). Language does shape our apprehension of existential reality but language cannot touch Ultimate Reality which defies description since it transcends existence utterly.

:peace:
MtG



I see that you have read into these traditions more than I have. And it is interesting what you say.

But to clarify my position, my experiental understanding of the word, of knowledge is as master Eckhart pointed out: "Knowledge always deceives. It always limits the Truth, every concept and image does."

Saussures "signifier, sign and signified" can be used to clarify this

The signifier is the physical manifestation, etc. the word, the sound or the image ...

The sign is the object/thing

The signified is the mental concept.


So in the case of a apple. "apple" is the signifier, the sign is the physical manifested apple, and the signified can be our mental concepts that comes up when we think of apple: sweed, tasty, red etc ...

But when we utter the word "God" (signifier) this word has no "sign". It only has a "signified". So then, by using the word God about something absolute we activate our language (system of signs) to try to understand it. And, in my experience, this can only limit absolute truth. We create mental representations of it, and take the mental representations for it. Or we go for an endless search to find it through mental representations. It cannot be found this way.


So thats why I called God a controll system. Reading the Bible initiates this kind of search for representations of the absolute. And what I am pointing at is that when we get really high, knowledge like this is only going to decieve. So ... what is the correct use of knowledge? in my view the correct use of knowledge is to use knowledge to "break down" knowledge. To get into the state that the Buddhist calls emptiness, or nothingness. That state which cannot be represented in any image.

So i guess then that I have the same idea as the Zen monks, when they place a shapeless rock in the garden to symbolize Buddha. And when you have this understanding, naming the "absolute" "God" seem totally crazy, cause God is a word full of ideas and concepts. For thousands of years we have been discussing what this mean, what it is and so on... and the usage of this word is only bound to get our minds tangled up with cultural dogma and so on ...

Edited by Hotdog from Space (07/11/19 12:34 PM)

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Hotdog from Space]
    #26102770 -

Within the context of language I suppose god is a control system but like you and others have said language is simply a restriction (or something like that) towards the transcendental. 

I like that sign, signifier, signified model.  It’s true the word god does not have a sign.  Or does it ?  I’ve been thinking more or less about this recently and how we come from the dark and the unknown in the sense of birth/death and how we return to the dark when we die.  I keep coming to the conclusion that god, from my subjective POV, literally = death.  Like you said everything else regarding god in this life is imagination some more realistic than others but nevertheless I’m fairly sure it’s relative illusion.  So god = the dark, the unknown.

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26105603 -

Terrance McKenna one of the greatest free thinkers of of our time actually talks about this in one of his dialogs referring to language as structure that forms our reality.  Think of a child who sees a bird for the first time it must be amazing a creature that flys around what else can it do spit fire maybe there are no limits on reality. But when we structure that object with a word it makes a limit a bird is creature that flys around and eats worms nothing else we create our own reality in this way. Maybe magic is like this making no limits on the imagination by deconstructing our words or reality and making the impossible possible.


--------------------
"Who says upright Ape's should know the secrets of the Universe"--Terrance McKenna

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: fatal222316]
    #26108156 -

Right, so if god is what we are after then we need to find him or her and deconstruct our language so that his or her infinite nature will reveal itself.  :stirthepot:

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26108826 -

Right this is the idea but I believe this is not a easy task we are ingrained with language we are ingrained with our current reality. I believe eastern mystics have transcended this with their practices such a meditation then we have shamans who do this with there sacred medicines there are many ways to get to the targeted goal but the point is reality is our perception ,change your perception and change your reality. Science even verify’s this on the quantum scale with thought experiments such schrodengers cat theory etc.


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"Who says upright Ape's should know the secrets of the Universe"--Terrance McKenna

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: fatal222316]
    #26109877 -

yea i agree, i think this could actually be a basis through which people can deduct/induct the possibility of a living god in our world. quantum physics promotes the concept as a spontaneous observer, of sorts. the seemingly random nature of this "observer" is where people get the ideas of angels/demons, god/devil, etc.

these instances are very tentative which makes it appear elusive or even absent for the most part, and are also considerably factored by the individuals' states of mind/thoughts/beliefs...



:mushroom2:


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Legalize drugs and prostitution

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Hotdog from Space] * 1
    #26110791 -

You may still have difficulties of association with the word God, but for me it is just shorthand for Ultimate Reality. The Dalai Lama used the word God in his lectures at Harvard and he is a Buddhist for crying out loud. It did not bother him and it does not bother me, but then again I am probably closer to the Dalai Lama's age than I am to your age and I do not have an uncontrolled torrent of pictoral or emotional representations of an Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky, or a Saint Joseph Baltimore catechism book with pictograms of lambs, doves, and glowing triangles to depict a Holy Trinity. :lol:

I am a fan of Meister Eckhart. I've been to Cologne Cathedral where he was to be put to the stake had he not mercifully died of natural causes first. Your example reminded me of semiotics and epistemology in my theories of knowledge course that I took in grad school in the early 80s. I get the difficulty with language and concept but I also have 48 years of psychedelic experiences as well as an almost equal number of years exploring systems of contemplation and a mystical experience that has sustained my engagement since December of 1973. Transcendental, transpersonal awareness is also trans-rational, non-linguistic and therefore non-conceptual.

Mysticism results in knowledge of a different order than epistemé, namely gnosis. This is jnana (gyan) in India and even though it is often translated as the Yoga of Intellect, it is the Non-Dualism that Ramana Maharshi teaches. It is direct knowledge, a unity of Knower-Knowledge-Known, neither subjective nor objective but transcendental unity. As Meister Eckhart said, "The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God's eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love."


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (07/16/19 01:37 AM)

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26110798 -

:thumbup:


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26110894 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
You may still have difficulties of association with the word God, but for me it is just shorthand for Ultimate reality. The Dslai Lama used the word God in his lectures at Harvard and he is a Buddhist for crying out loud. It did not bother him and it does not bother me, but then again I am probably closer to the Dalai Lama's age than I am to your age and I do not have an uncontrolled torrent of pictoral or emotional representations of an Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky, or a Saint Joseph Baltimore catechism book with pictograms of lambs, doves, and glowing triangles to depict a Holy Trinity. :lol:

I am a fan of Meister Eckhart. I've been to Cologne Cathedral where he was to be put to the stake had he not mercifully died of natural causes first. Your example reminded me of semiotics and epistemology in my theories of knowledge course that I took in grad school in the early 80s. I get the difficulty with language and concept but I also have 48 years of psychedelic experiences as well as an almost equal number of years exploring systems of contemplation and a mystical experience that has sustained my engagement since December of 1973. Transcendental, transpersonal awareness is also trans-rational, non-linguistic and therefore non-conceptual.

Mysticism results in knowledge of a different order than epistemé, namely gnosis. This is jnana (gyan) in India and even though it is often translated as the Yoga of Intellect, it is the Non-Dualism that Ramana Maharshi teaches. It is direct knowledge, a unity of Knower-Knowledge-Known, neither subjective nor objective but transcendental unity. As Meister Eckhart said, "The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God's eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love."


I like the knower-knowledge-known triangle. Instead of the subject-object-verb that always puts the object as something above the subject, something that really is unreachable, cause one get's stuck in the "verb", the practice. One always gotta do something to reach the upper plateau, be it belief, meditation, spiritual practice and so on ...

Though, "doing" has it's benefits, like doing DMT. But there is no subject that does the doing. It is no meditater that meditates. This would not be meditation, and a DMT experience with the subject would not reach the upper plateau of the DMT experience - the ego dies.

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Hotdog from Space]
    #26112045 -

yes the god of this reality, Jehovah, is the word aka language.
language begets reason , hierarchy, time, space, separation, limitation, constriction, suffering, stuckness..
hes like Lord business in the first lego movie trying to keep everything perfectly frozen.
the gospel of the serpent says that he came from the black depths of the outer darkness. an ill, twisted wraith born from fear of the void.
this god is not apart from you. he is the personification of the ego, the aspect of you that cant cope with constant flux.

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: mt cleverest]
    #26112120 -

I stay away from most religious jargon and rhetoric.  There are certain realms which we all interact with. 

The first is the ego or recently understood as the default mode network. 

Then there is the subconscious.

The unconscious

The collective conscious

Then lastly Universal Conscious.

There may be consciousness beyond that.

But losing meaning to words and a sense of reality could just be cannabis.  Psychosis is also very much that.  Losing the ability to communicate and respect where others live and associate is not a viable option.

Even though it is fun to experience things differently.

I was just thinking that perhaps at death there is only evaporation of consciousness.  Going back to the system as a whole.  That everything that was held together in the mind, was only the brain.  That the last moment is simply a destruction of whole.

The brain can come up with any sort of philosophy or theory, religion, belief and illusion.  Capable of creating heaven and hell, all on it's own.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26112140 -

Think that at death, the brain may attempt it's greatest effort at an illusion.  Just to make sense.  So it doesn't know it's the end.

Meditation is an attempt to bring that strength and power into more of life.  It's rare we try our best all the time, because we are not evolved to and it seems oh so unlikely to be profitable to do that.

We are humans and error.  So religion speaks of grace.  Something the world is very shy of.

The greatest irony is we try to make sense of things.  We do a lot of harm not having a refined brain that always make perfect sense.  We get tired and lose our maximum effort.

Perhaps at some point there will be some sort of new effort of existence as a whole.  But there is zero evidence that anything is other than a cultural construct.

When the brain holds on, it forms structures.  Any sense at all.  Even nonsense.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26112241 -

Yeah I agree death is, potentially, the only true answer to any question of ultimate reality.  But that doesn’t do us any good while we choose to stay alive.  Hence the mystical (or scientific) drive to play with the construct.  And according to modern science there seems to be suggestions that playing around with things has realistic implications.

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26112297 -

2 trillion galaxies is the only reason I am open to spiritual dimensions.  I see a lot of understanding in just why people are so afraid of death.  It has nothing to do with fearing God.

Being able to be a better person is something that religion tries to impress with.  Often fails more often than not at that.

Religion was an early form of social medicine.  Our egos are more developed and defined these days.  So we'd like to assume and can observe in some of us.

Facts are facts and being open seems a large part of what death may be.  Seems like a waste of energy, borderline insanity to think about the abstract.

In real time, religion is a political device.  It's been that way for a long time. A great deal of assumptions are made, because so many never thought outside of their culture.

Even the Nazi's had mystical beliefs.  Very very dangerous to just make up culture catch phrases and go about changing the world on a powerful delusion.

Now we are in a mess where people find it so offensive that someone thinks outside the cultural box.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26112400 -

So maybe you’re more of a  :rail: type person.  Time is money 24/7 get after it.

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26112405 -

What is the end goal?  Pass on children?

That sounds too involved.  Work your but off just to have kids pass on eternal inheritance?


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26112433 -

You can’t really slam religion and the abstract and then say that bra  :stoned:

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26112441 -

Says who?

You?

An online 'authority'?


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26112454 -

I mean yeah I said it.  Don’t know what you mean by “authority”.  Would you prefer more of a  :tellmeastory: response..

My idea was that if you don’t see a point to materialism and life shit then you may not want to slam religion or the idea of cultivating faith.  It’s your call.

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26112458 -

his demonstration of existentialist despair is why religion was concocted in the first place tho lol. his plight here is like that of many, who can't get behind the usual religious dogma that prances around giving glib responses pretending to know what they clearly dont.


:wow:


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Legalize drugs and prostitution

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: DontFearThePeepr]
    #26112464 -

The point of materialism is to wield power.  To avoid the reality that is death.

Religion was made to rebel.

Perhaps we'll scientifically create an afterlife?  Because there is zero evidence at this time that there is an afterlife anymore than there is a last moment.

Religions have also drank the kool aide and killed themselves.  Any volunteers?


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26112469 -

If you don't believe in the tooth fairly you don't get any quarters.

If you don't believe in Santa Clause, you don't get any presents.

If you don't believe in the after life, do you still have a final hallucination?

It's human's struggling with their mortality.  I have no problem making something out of existence.  It's more of a power struggle and a lot of phony ideas than it is about reality.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26112481 -

You stated several materialistic pursuits that are pointless to you.  Your response to this is to slam religion which in your words is a rebellion of this.  C’mon man

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26112488 -

I don't understand your issue.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26112496 -

Morel Guy said:
If you don't believe in the tooth fairly you don't get any quarters.

If you don't believe in Santa Clause, you don't get any presents.

If you don't believe in the after life, do you still have a final hallucination?

It's human's struggling with their mortality.  I have no problem making something out of existence.  It's more of a power struggle and a lot of phony ideas than it is about reality.


If you don’t believe in the afterlife you die regardless.  But you did a shitty job of coping with life.  Not that you need to believe in an afterlife or “Jesus Christ” to cope with life.  It’s part of the game however.  Granted I’m no expert on religion not even close but priests to me represent a function of cultivating faith at some level of well being that isn’t accessible materialistically.

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26112508 -

So does science, the arts and philosophy.

Religion is mainly in part philosophy.  Without the due nature of rebuttal.  It's assumed to be a whole lot more.

I think people think reality is more advanced than in actually is.  Religion is 90% make believe.  As a coping mechanism, and not the authority it's been commanded by men to become.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26112535 -

Studying religion and being religious are drastically different things.  Logic sees religion as madness.  Emotional and mystical states are effective however. And the more science of the right kind you throw in there the more sane mysticism tends to become.

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26112546 -

That is more of a mindfullness than the subject of after life.  No doubt the brain is powerful.

Realizing that power leaves a question of fate and legacy that one knows the end result.  Thus the ability to lie and manipulate fate and legacy.

People have had surgery under hypnosis while awake in a trance.  That's not evidence of afterlife, God nor religion as would be so easy to confuse people.

People want a lot more than they are worth and religion gives that grace.  Even if ithe religion not true at all.

Thinking of after life is a good way to be nuts.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26112552 -

Morel Guy said:
I think people think reality is more advanced than in actually is.  Religion is 90% make believe.  As a coping mechanism, and not the authority it's been commanded by men to become.


I don’t think religion is meant to be interpreted literally in terms of its supernatural content.  I simply see it as a function of spiritual cultivation in some sense.  As far as the wars etc that have been fought over it that’s another argument entirely.  But the colored glass scriptures gyms priests etc. that shits great

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26112563 -

Morel Guy said:
That is more of a mindfullness than the subject of after life.  No doubt the brain is powerful.

Realizing that power leaves a question of fate and legacy that one knows the end result.  Thus the ability to lie and manipulate fate and legacy.

People have had surgery under hypnosis while awake in a trance.  That's not evidence of afterlife, God nor religion as would be so easy to confuse people.

People want a lot more than they are worth and religion gives that grace.  Even if ithe religion not true at all.

Thinking of after life is a good way to be nuts.


Yeah no I feel you dog.  It’s a bad idea to search scientifically or believe the promises of religions afterlife’s and that nonsense.  I think it’s good for other things however.

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26112566 -

So it's 'trippy' to you?  That is the entirety of religions psycological power projection.  It's a psycological campaign of intimidation to subvert individuals into a whole that is under peoples authority.

Even subculture are creating symbols to organize peopke into an agenda.  Goes back to cave painting days.  Back then they did it just to have a community and family.


There are sone things wrong with order that need worked out.  Accepting fate is a huge part of nirvana.  The liberation from llusion.  Followers still follow.  Liberated ones can lead or they just accept mortality.

So much is created simply because society would fall apart if the reality of our suffering was realized.  People actually require escapism thoughts to distract from the pain if mortality.  Peopke are too weak to transform pain into liberating ecstasy.

That is why I enjoy ancient religions and primitive people.  It's much more transparent and removed from my own culture.

Grasping to religious hope is a distraction.  The path to realizing our reality is one of nearly suicide and for sure insane.  It takes a lot of pain and endurance to realize all the assumd meaning is just bogus.

Yet good hope does survive.  It still feels good to oet a dog.  It feels good to consume.  The twilight of night and dreams can be rest.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26112570 -

Yellow Pants said:
Morel Guy said:
That is more of a mindfullness than the subject of after life.  No doubt the brain is powerful.

Realizing that power leaves a question of fate and legacy that one knows the end result.  Thus the ability to lie and manipulate fate and legacy.

People have had surgery under hypnosis while awake in a trance.  That's not evidence of afterlife, God nor religion as would be so easy to confuse people.

People want a lot more than they are worth and religion gives that grace.  Even if ithe religion not true at all.

Thinking of after life is a good way to be nuts.


Yeah no I feel you dog.  It’s a bad idea to search scientifically or believe the promises of religions afterlife’s and that nonsense.  I think it’s good for other things however.



The ends will not justify the means.  Built on a lie.  We are likely at the begnning of our true potentail during ww2 and the space age.  Goodness is something entirely human.  Some animals have it in them and a lot of humans have not much more than animals.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26112579 -

I don't mean to insult peoples comfort that religion gives them.  It's really only meant for that and hardly substantail for a growing number of people.  Fiction can comfort people.  But it's very painful and bad action to go on living a lie.

Imagine how painful it is to die.  I guess people need the opiate of religion.

Imagine how many religions exist and get faught over in the estimated 2 trillion galaxies.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26112594 -

I was gonna say you’re starting to sound awfully preachy.  You sure you got this right?  I go to church voluntarily if I wish. 

Before long you’ll start an anti religion cult, form an army, and outlaw religious practice.  How dare you.

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26112603 -

That is just your nutty right wing rhetoric.

Freedom to practice make believe is what you want.  People always could do that.  Making beliefs law of the land is tyranny.

Facts aren't beliefs.  Too many believe facts are beliefs and it's not so at all.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26112610 -

Whose making these beliefs the law of the land ?

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26112633 -

It goes far far far back since the dawn of human history.  Humans did not know and still as a whole, know how to seperate fact from fiction.  That is insanity.

It's just that hard to know reality.  People want to be heros and assume they know all.  Have answers as conpassion.  It's not so easy.

It creates a lot more side effects.

Leaders from long ago, to Trump, claim divine selection.  A bunch of crap dumb people buy into.  They make their personal beliefs law, laws that are easily bought into by those that support them.

Not even any specific group, but it's common in human history.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26112646 -

Ok so you don’t think religion is worthwhile.  What if a cutting edge quantum theorist voluntarily attends church on Sunday.  What do you make of that ?

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26112662 -

I didn't all say that.  I don't know how to speak simple enough in your terms.

You keep fasely summerizing what I didn't say.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26112683 -

So you don’t know what to make of it.  I was just curious what you would’ve thought.

More to your point, sure, people can struggle with fact or fiction.  It shows up intensely in the whole religion/science tension.  Some say fuck it I’ll believe in Christ others forge ahead into nature and evidence.  Some do both.  Leaders can be dangerous.  Followers can be dangerous.

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26112699 -

I made plenty of it.

There is no end point, no grand future vision.  Period, the end.

The only future that will get humans to the future is a path of valid science.  Dropping cultural myth.  Sure it can be entertaining, not to be confused with reality.  It's a pain killer, a night cap, something to put the kids to bed with.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26112707 -

You think science will save us ?  Your iPhone makin you sleep easier at night ?

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26112724 -

Science has saved billions.  Religion has saved a few.  So has a lot of fiction.  But religon saves by a different device than science.

Religion dorsn't perform bipass surgery.  Religion didn't go to the moon.  Religion didn't even nor discover antbiotics.

Religious people peopke perhaps.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26112738 -

Yeah the atomic bombs, modern war equipment, hitlers savy use of chemicals etc etc. countless genocides.  Light and dark.  Science and religion.

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26112951 -

it's been scientifically proven that faith has a positive psychological effect on certain types of people. if it's something that works then i don't see any reason to knock them for it. people need coping mechanisms sometimes they're just easier to find like that.

conversely, even einstein himself had a quote saying "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

this was a part of his belief system that made him a successful and famous scientist. and what led him to think that way was his pursuit of science. god can reveal itself to people in many ways, while for others they just take it on faith.


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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: DontFearThePeepr]
    #26113097 -

Science does not equal technology.
It is technology what saves lifes and what gives you an iphone. And even worse than that, it is the application of technology what save lifes and give you an iphone.

I do not worship idols or words. I do not worship at all. Trascendental and mystic philosophies specially metaphysics explain holes in most of people universals models. But a series of rituals, faiths and unreasonable thinking is just "socially accepted delusions".

Do you have a complex metaphysical thought in which you deduce the existence of a soul, a god, a demiurge or whatever? fine, i even believe those thoughts can be scientifically proven to help you.
But if you are telling me that there is a religion(faith, rituals, unreasonable thoughts) that helps some kind of people with certain mindset... that reminds me when old people hit their wives because it was good for them, because it taught them good behaviour.


I even believe there is people who worships science and media as religion. Always trusting their sources and never checking the validity of research and studies (spoilers, most psychological studies and studies about meditation and mindfulness cannot be considered valid)

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: DontFearThePeepr]
    #26113362 -

I didn't knock anyone for it, encase you didn't actually read to understand my posts.  If someone wants to be a fiction junkie that's up to them.  My understanding is it effects culture and became laws.

Forcing everyone to the same false ideology is a good thing?  Because that is exactly what Republicans want.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26113382 -

If science has done so many bad things, then why the record world population?

Science is an observation.  What people do with science is a lot of other reasons.  Hitler was into mysticism as well.  That's exactly why they killed the Jewish people and disabled as well as other minorities.

I said very clearly that religion is an opiate.  That people find the truth and reality too painful.  It's a coping mechanism, one that spread wild.

Not that meditation doesn't have it's benefits.  It's plain simple brain science.  It doesn't need complex ideology, the brain is already complex enough.

But if hallucinations and delusions secure you, theirs nothing I can do to alter that path.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26113446 -

I remember learning of my mortality.  My Grandma told me about it.  I had no idea that we die or were really even alive for that matter.  Things got a bit dark.  I remember having trouble falling asleep. Trying to hallicinate spiritual power.  Which the brain is very capable of generating.

The longer we live, the more people we love we lose.  That is a very heavy weight.  We can still imagine them.  That is a curse when we try to imagine what their spirit is like.  Which the brain is fully capable of doing.

Humans seem incapable of letting the dead rest.  Because resting our own mind is almost impossible.  Which is enlightenment.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26113528 -

There should be a loving atheism.  Psycology mostly got to that and is increasing.  Psycadelics also got to that, even in the rainforest.

Love isn't a complex ideology.  Atheism became confused with war time communism.  Not that religion makes people less extreme and more loving to non-believers.

In a way living without love and seeing beauty is an athiest way of life, even for believers of religion.  Waiting for spirit, or enlightenment, or god, is just chasing the dragon.

It's our vunerability that allows us to embrace our good traits.  This is inherint kniwledge yet gets comlicated with our corrupted infuence by culture and family belief practices.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26114153 -

i guess i should preface by saying im not really part of any religion in any way, my family is christian which ofc causes subconscious effects in people involved. but i was an atheist to agnostic to now i don't not really believe in the possibility of a living god. the societal baggage you describe imo is a matter of an interconnected suffering being shoved off onto later generations forcing us into a lower dimension of negative karma.

none of the religions are "right" but they do describe certain aspects which would appear to be true. people just don't bother to put things together like the puzzle it really is and would rather just take things for granted since it's easier and their in a position to not really have to suffer much in their lives.


that's just my opinion/observation tho lol. my opinion for most things is also primarily based on neuroscience and metaphysics for the most part.


:shrug:


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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: DontFearThePeepr]
    #26114162 -

:thumbsup:


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In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26114199 -

Morel Guy said:
I didn't knock anyone for it, encase you didn't actually read to understand my posts.  If someone wants to be a fiction junkie that's up to them.  My understanding is it effects culture and became laws.

Forcing everyone to the same false ideology is a good thing?  Because that is exactly what Republicans want.


Ok so bitch to republicans then.  Better yet bitch about government.  I bitched about it for an entire thread on Anarchy.  :lol:

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26114201 -

:lolwut:


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In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26114218 -

Yellow Pants said:
Ok so bitch to republicans then.  Better yet bitch about government.  I bitched about it for an entire thread on Anarchy.  :lol:



well that's just a lesson in futility lol.


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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: DontFearThePeepr]
    #26114230 -

I DO understand that altered consciousness can be a good time.  It can also be and more commonly so, is a very bad time.

The last moment was always accessible.  Yet it takes a well prepared life to have a good last moment.

We know that DMT plays a roll in unusual consciousness.  In both insanity, and death, as well as trauma.

Our last moment is just one big idea.  It does not continue nor where there be a feeling of need to continue.  Most people report DMT as something they didn't want to last forever.  A cosmic explosion of abstract mind.

It's the mind no longer making sense.  It's a futile attempt to make sense out of the last thing the mind wanted to do (die).


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26114248 -

DontFearThePeepr said:
Yellow Pants said:
Ok so bitch to republicans then.  Better yet bitch about government.  I bitched about it for an entire thread on Anarchy.  :lol:



well that's just a lesson in futility lol.


Maybe, maybe not.  I learned some stuff and was entertained.

Morel Guy said:
I DO understand that altered consciousness can be a good time.  It can also be and more commonly so, is a very bad time.

The last moment was always accessible.  Yet it takes a well prepared life to have a good last moment.

We know that DMT plays a roll in unusual consciousness.  In both insanity, and death, as well as trauma.

Our last moment is just one big idea.  It does not continue nor where there be a feeling of need to continue.  Most people report DMT as something they didn't want to last forever.  A cosmic explosion of abstract mind.

It's the mind no longer making sense.  It's a futile attempt to make sense out of the last thing the mind wanted to do (die).


It seems you’re trying to argue against religion which is a good thing to put to the test.  But you keep re routing your take like in this post.  You’re not convincing me that the institution of say Christianity is unacceptable.

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26114267 -

So you think lying to people will form heaven on Earth?

You think building society on a lie is a solid foundation?

People quickly accept magical cure alls, doesn't make them magic nor cure all.  It's child like fantasy to keep the hallucinations of monsters at bay.

Anyone can experience psychosis.  It's not only people with the gene(s).  Anyone can have an interactive imagination.  They haven't even found nor understand which genes cause hallucinations.  They do know trauma can induce hallucinations in anyone.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26114293 -

there could be a grossly better form of religion than Christianity.  I’ll give you that.  But you need a replacement.

In fact rewriting Christianity to suit modern times is probably the better bet.

Edited by Yellow Pants (07/17/19 03:01 PM)

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26114302 -

No.  We need people to accept the truth and to have fair balanced judgment.

I am sorry we die.  I am sorry we don't live forever in a perfect reality.  It'd be nice, grand, heaven.  Existence isn't kind and there is no great replacement for our suffering.

Buddhism says we can accept that and find nirvana.  The thing ablut ancient religions is it's like the game telephone.  Every generation ads their own little spin.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26114309 -

I'm not against all elements of religion.  It's the selfess moments that are beatiful.  Those cam also be bad for us.

Just being selfless and giving is kind but it can be a bit of a loss.  The world needs more of it from the top down.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26114317 -

So America should adopt Buddhism ?  Just burn the cross?  That’s your replacement.  Ok interesting.

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26114330 -

They already are replacing with a method and mild mannered mindfullness practice.  In every county in America there is tax funded mental health services that weakly attempt to teach this.  As well as US military programs.

It's like generic zen without the rich cultural history.  Built on science and American can do attitude.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26114414 -

you think Christianity is being replaced by mindfulness and 100$/hr therapists ?  Or are you saying this is the road to Buddhism which I have to tell you is full of horse shit to the brim in itself from a scientific perspective.  Nobody gives a shit about Buddhism in east Asia relatively speaking :lol:

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26114440 -

I think your an extremist that makes things up.  That's what I think.

Christianity in America is going down hill.  Other forms of thought are increasing.  This is shown in every study, among young people.  Some of these younger people are getting older.

It's happening.

What example I gave, is what the Government funds.  They are not allowed to fund specific religious causes.  Mindfulness is the practical nature of being more aware, self soothing, and intelligent.  It's rooted in Eastern practices.

Because it works.  Christianity drives people insane more than it soothes.  Even the Christian mystic Swedenborg spoke of the schizophrenia of Christianity.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26114461 -

:musky:

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26114462 -

would it really be that hard to believe that every religion is wrong? this is the whole problem, no one wants to admit they were wrong about it lol. if they could just suck it up and learn to accept the obvious we would all get along much better  :tongue:

altho with that said i think we've gotten off-topic in this thread rofl.


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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: DontFearThePeepr]
    #26114523 -

Religions take a leap of faith.  There are key's to psychology, such as projection.  We are projecting our own self, into demons, angels, anything we create.

People take it at strait value though, it's not healthy.

The truth is more complicated than what's simply communicated.  Hence there is religion.  It simplifies a collective unity among a community.  It also isn't perfect at that.

Mysticism is exploring the mind and the end of mind.  Reality is mystic, it's beautiful.  We tend to turn off our ability to perceive like we did as kids.

Just recall what things felt like before age 4 or 5.  Things felt a lot more intense.  It's some sort of tactic of nature to numb us up so we can deal with a higher work load.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26114599 -

Morel Guy said:
Religions take a leap of faith.  There are key's to psychology, such as projection.  We are projecting our own self, into demons, angels, anything we create.

People take it at strait value though, it's not healthy.

The truth is more complicated than what's simply communicated.  Hence there is religion.  It simplifies a collective unity among a community.  It also isn't perfect at that.

Mysticism is exploring the mind and the end of mind.  Reality is mystic, it's beautiful.  We tend to turn off our ability to perceive like we did as kids.

Just recall what things felt like before age 4 or 5.  Things felt a lot more intense.  It's some sort of tactic of nature to numb us up so we can deal with a higher work load.


:thumbup:

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26114600 -

there we go! mind manifests reality. that's what happens and it's mostly right under people's noses imo.


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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: DontFearThePeepr]
    #26114992 -

DontFearThePeepr said:
there we go! mind manifests reality. that's what happens and it's mostly right under people's noses imo.


Of course the hard reality is that we all die and we know it.  What did Castaneda say,  death is always an arm length away to the right.  Well, science and religion don’t change that.  But they seem to help in their own respects.

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26115018 -

My only hope is that the universe may be intelligent.  Not saying a rock is or even a planet although there may be the at least the idea they are.

A rock is small.  A planet is small.  Yet the rock earth has complex life.  Even though we are small and still a bit dumb (unpolished).

The universe is just so big that it's like trying to teach a fly to understand how a pilot flies a jet.  Or even more incomparable.  Sometimes we'd like to know how a fly flies or instincts think.

I had a near death experience once or twice and it was quite sonething that's always been there.  It's something people and animals become themselves to avoid.  I saw and felt some strange stuff when I had my first really bad trauma.  Not saying it's real.

Breaking the mold but being able to out it together with good ideas was the hope of psycadelics and meditation.  Not getting stuck with the means either.

Buddha still inspires me.  Jesus is a bit too much of a sad ongoing story.  Yet even buddha died.

I never really did dissolve my ego.  I've seen it tet away from me.  I don't think drugs are as a promising tool as meditation.

Meditation lasts, drugs do not.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26115049 -

tho research shows that meditation while on certain drugs does have more profound effect  :wink:


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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: DontFearThePeepr]
    #26115446 -

Compared to your average mediation?

That's not the idea of meditation.  It's a shortcut.  Meditation is capable of more profound changes that last.  Taking a drug and meditating isn't quite the same as having endurance and conditioning.

It's kinda like taking steroids.  It doesn't last, has side effects, it is sorta cheating.  It's not capable of the same compassion and changes to self as mediation.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be a tool utilized.  Meditation is also less capable of confusing a person.  Hallucinogens are very capable of reeking havoc.

They do do similar things in the brain.  One thing meditation does differently is just how there is more peace in the recruitment of other regions of the brain.

Of all the healing and understanding I've accomplished, none of it has come from illegal drugs.  Those drugs show something that is easy to cling to.

Real stuff isn't mind blowing.  Having your mind blown is not a great idea.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26115547 -

I don't see why meditation changes anything except making you waste time (as time changes).

I mean, i can think a few reasons why it may help you, or others. Still, i think it is suboptimal. Good, sometimes, bad othertimes, but definitely not optimal.

For me, meditation is a religious act, and as such is delusional.

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: living_failure]
    #26115557 -

And prayer isn't?

Maybe you never meditated?  Dropping the default mode network, aka the ego and subconscious noise is very healthy. 

Just because your tried and failed at meditation doesn't make it delusional.  That is a projection of your own failure.

It's not so easy as meditating for 10 minutes and experiencing universal xtc.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26115630 -

Morel Guy said:
And prayer isn't?

Maybe you never meditated?  Dropping the default mode network, aka the ego and subconscious noise is very healthy. 

Just because your tried and failed at meditation doesn't make it delusional.  That is a projection of your own failure.

It's not so easy as meditating for 10 minutes and experiencing universal xtc.


Prayer is by definition a religious act, that means it can be good for some and bad fir others...


I have meditated before yes. Both flushing thoughts away and letting thoughts and feelings flow.

I don't consider it as a failure, it helped me. But other things helps more.

I am not telling this in the single basis of a negative experience, but as  a deduction of all my perceptions and logics of things i've experienced, observed and read.
And, even if i was a fool. It is ad hominem to consider everything a fool says as false, and everything a wise man says isn't true either.

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: living_failure]
    #26115639 -

That is just to think for yourself.  Cause obviously people are individual..

Prayer is capable of abnormal consciousness just as meditation.  Prayer is a mantra.  A method to manifest intent.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26115841 -

Morel Guy said:
That is just to think for yourself.  Cause obviously people are individual..

Prayer is capable of abnormal consciousness just as meditation.  Prayer is a mantra.  A method to manifest intent.


Individuals or not. We all are chained to reality. An reality has rules and truths.

Meditation, praying or even direct ill delusions can help someone. Help who, from what, to what, is just a different matter and the matter i was speaking, meditation or praying are can help, but others things help a lot of more.

For example. If you want to know more about yourself. Ask others, study yourself, study others and compare. Waste time on investigating yourself (deduce what you are with what you do), use a journal and follow a method, etc...  I think that way is better than meditation.

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: living_failure]
    #26115863 -

Ok but that wasn't the argument.  The argument was that meditation is formthe time being a better investment than drugs.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26115880 -

Morel Guy said:
Ok but that wasn't the argument.  The argument was that meditation is formthe time being a better investment than drugs.


And, depending on the objetive. Drugs are better than meditation.

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: living_failure]
    #26116008 -

There's a lot of debate around that one.  It depends how devoted one is to mediation and what their culture allows/respects.

Western society is falling apart.  It has lost a lot of people.  The local mental health clinic in every county isn't that attractive.  It's a probation office and brainwashing clinic.

That's why there is a subculture of alternative medicines (drugs).  Both groups of patients/subjects have had people leave and work with only meditation.

I'll give that a good trip is worth more than a visit to a psychologist/psychiatrist and better than a brief mediation.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26116264 -

Morel Guy said:
There's a lot of debate around that one.  It depends how devoted one is to mediation and what their culture allows/respects.

Western society is falling apart.  It has lost a lot of people.  The local mental health clinic in every county isn't that attractive.  It's a probation office and brainwashing clinic.

That's why there is a subculture of alternative medicines (drugs).  Both groups of patients/subjects have had people leave and work with only meditation.

I'll give that a good trip is worth more than a visit to a psychologist/psychiatrist and better than a brief mediation.



Yeah, and maybe i just met the worst cases of meditation practicioners, since you seem like the most reasonable man that also do meditation that i ever have the pleasure to meet.

I've never finished pshychology, but in the few years i study it all the others students were ridiculously biased and simple minded. In the opposite extreme, trippers.
I always thought a psychological and philosophical aproach to drugs is probably the fastest and cleanest way to change and evolve as an human being.


I am not againts trascendental thoughts myself. I just have a opposite approach to the trascendental world than religions. Curiously, that is also the approach most meditation practicioners have even if i trust almost nothing in meditation, i give it that.

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: living_failure]
    #26116299 -

Thats the problem with drugs.  They cause transcedental thoughts.  Meditation is about transcedental being.  Accepting that nobody is adequate enough for their own ego.

Meditation is a good way to be able to self sooth.  After awhile comforting energy sensations that create a deeper and more enduring baseline rest exist.  It's possible to lose those yet you know you can get back to that.

I'm not to a point where meditation is always intoxicating.  It's much more lucid and secure than exciting thoughts.  If anything it's unattachment to thought.  An analysis of how we bury emotions that manifest as somatic symptoms.

I still experience negative emotions but I wasted a lot of years on a foundation of drugs.  I know drugs well and that their unpredictability is a risk. Meditations unpredictability is a reward.

I still do though know I am tempted to wanna smoke weed in a legal and secure environment.  Yet cannabis can be a profound attachment.  In the end all attachments cease.  Attachments create karma and suffering.  But a lot of fun at times.  It's life to have attachments.

My guess is enlightenment if it is a thing is capable of unattached, anxiety free relations.  Attachments can live with us long after we "removed" them from our lives.  I think that part has it's peace.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26116400 -

Morel Guy said:
Compared to your average mediation?

That's not the idea of meditation.  It's a shortcut.  Meditation is capable of more profound changes that last.  Taking a drug and meditating isn't quite the same as having endurance and conditioning.

It's kinda like taking steroids.  It doesn't last, has side effects, it is sorta cheating.  It's not capable of the same compassion and changes to self as mediation.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be a tool utilized.  Meditation is also less capable of confusing a person.  Hallucinogens are very capable of reeking havoc.

They do do similar things in the brain.  One thing meditation does differently is just how there is more peace in the recruitment of other regions of the brain.

Of all the healing and understanding I've accomplished, none of it has come from illegal drugs.  Those drugs show something that is easy to cling to.

Real stuff isn't mind blowing.  Having your mind blown is not a great idea.



the research i was referring was about giving psilocybin to very disciplined meditators. iirc the research showed a more pronounced effect on the default mode network, which you had also mentioned before.

tho it's also like living_failure said, meditation requires a lot of focus and a lot of times people can't focus much lol. so ime you can modulate this aspect of it with various substances, like treating a sort of "meditation adhd". personally, i usually tend to have trouble meditating regularly and eventually give up completely. so i guess i might try doing that again soon lol.


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Legalize drugs and prostitution

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: DontFearThePeepr]
    #26116488 -

I struggle as well.  Yet it's there more to meditation when life is rough.  When life is smooth, meditation is rough.  Odd, I don't know why?

Sometimes bad feelings arise and meditation explores those.  The enjoyable part is when good feelings arise and going deeper into those.  The exact mechanisms of suffering are complex.

I have heard about meditation and drug trials.  There's nothing wrong with a good legal trip with a well prepped mind.  It's unlikely we'll have that access here in Ohio in my life.  That is one reason I vote liberal.  I feel it's more likely to pipeline legislation towards these legalities.

Sometimes it's just hard to wait and wait to feel good feelings with meditation.  Difficult to detach from those.  Like waiting for an injury to heal, hunger to pass or sleep to come.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: The psychology of mysticism [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26116545 -

yea it seriously drives me nuts having to wait for gov to realize that schedule I drugs actually have legitimate medical application. then again, im also pretty impatient lol  :rofl:


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Legalize drugs and prostitution

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