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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Laminar build [Re: syroth]
    #26100433 -

Syroth, thanks for the info drop. This is likely why I've seen them recommended against, good info to have. Makes sense.


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My Shoebox Factory Beginner's Tek | Shoebox Assembly Tek | Methodology/teks I use | How I Store Bulk Items

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Re: Laminar build [Re: ShaperDreaming]
    #26100444 -

You're welcome!

    Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of KISS lol the less complexity and chance for mistakes the better the approach is. I am just simply assuming that if we're at the point of discussing CFM and charts and graphs related to filter or blower performance than I should advocate use of a speed controller.

    As always, you can pay a few extra $$$ and buy products that are assured to be compatible. When in doubt, a few extra bucks is worth peace of mind for sure!



***EDIT: Changed potentiometer to speed controller for technical accuracy. I used the term too loosely

Edited by syroth (07/10/19 04:51 PM)

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Re: Laminar build [Re: ShaperDreaming]
    #26100457 -

You are so right..

Motor controllers are potentiometer/resiter that gets very hot while running. The heat is removed by the resister mounted to a heat sink.
So your not saving anything on your electric bill my running It on low.

By blocking the intake of the blower some with duck tape The electrical current will drop. Also one less thing to break down on you.
Also again allot of motors will not except motor controllers..


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Re: Laminar build [Re: micelio]
    #26100485 -

The correct kind of speed controller for any blower would be a frequency drive. A potentiometer is not good for motors.

AC motors get their speed from the frequency of the electricity. Speed controllers don't alter the frequency like a VFD does. Speed controllers(potentiometer) simply lower the voltage to the motor which will make the windings in the motor overheat as it slows it down. Overheated windings lower the duty cycle of the blower and the lifetime. The blowers expect mains voltage not less. That's why you can't just plug a single phase 220 blower into 110 and expect it to just run slower.

Single phase AC motors especially hate potentiometers due to the way they startup.

Using a quality potentiometer that can dissipate heat well isn't going to fix the fact it's not the right tool for the job.

I use dayton blowers at work the same ones people use on hoods to evacuate 180-220 degree exhaust from machinery 8 hours a day 5 days a week and they last more than years.


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Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
Bod's chat thread

5g a day keeps the 5g away

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Re: Laminar build [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26100553 -

Bod..
When It comes to mechanics and physics, you're very informative.

Thanks..


I would like to add just a little to the topic motor controllers..

This is what you where saying, but explained a little different..
I found this at google:

A more popular form of motor controller is a “Pulse width modulated” controller.

This works by switching the motor on and off very fast (20,000 times a second)

The power is controlled by how long you leave it ON compared to OFF

at 100% power - you leave it ON

at 50% power - you have it ON for 50% and off for 50%

This has the major advantage of not wasting a lot of power at part load


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Re: Laminar build [Re: micelio]
    #26100559 -

VFDs are not necessarily PWMs
PWM VFDs are even more prohibitively expensive


--------------------
Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
Bod's chat thread

5g a day keeps the 5g away

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Re: Laminar build [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26100607 -

They make damn near every cfm for blowers weather it's Dayton blowers or not.

I'd just overpower the blower and block the intake a bit (been said above me)

If you really wanna get fancy you can get one of those cfm measuring devices idk what they are actually called.

I think maybe over a 5 year period of it being on i could see a controller being used if it was on constantly.


I don't think most people run their hoods for more than 20 hours a week.


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If I ever give out misinformation please inform me so I can have the correct information. :cheers:

Tmethyl said:
Chuck Norris once roundhouse kicked a monotub that wasn't pinning fast enough. The force of the kick rearranged the genetics of the mushrooms, we now call them Penis Envy.

Caps McGee said:
:thumbsup:
Fun part is figuring out what works best for you

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Re: Laminar build [Re: van hatton]
    #26100622 -

Operating a motor outside of its voltage draws more amperage. Low or higher than expected voltage makes the motor overheat. Low voltage the motor tries to draw more current. Higher supplied voltage oversaturates the magnets also making the motor work harder and pull more amps. Even if a motor gives a voltage range operating at the ends of the spectrum will absolutely lower the life of the motor.

When you put a potentiometer/speed control on a single phase AC motor you actually have to lower the voltage so much that the motor cant draw enough compensation amps through its windings before it actually slows down. Which means in order to slow a single phase AC motor with a potentiometer you literally have to make it operate in a way that will burn out your motor eventually.

Buy a kill-a-watt meter and watch as you slow the motor the amperage will spike past the nameplate rating before it slows down.


--------------------
Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
Bod's chat thread

5g a day keeps the 5g away

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Re: Laminar build [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26100761 -

bodhisatta said:
Operating a motor outside of its voltage draws more amperage. Low or higher than expected voltage makes the motor overheat. Low voltage the motor tries to draw more current. Higher supplied voltage oversaturates the magnets also making the motor work harder and pull more amps. Even if a motor gives a voltage range operating at the ends of the spectrum will absolutely lower the life of the motor.

When you put a potentiometer/speed control on a single phase AC motor you actually have to lower the voltage so much that the motor cant draw enough compensation amps through its windings before it actually slows down. Which means in order to slow a single phase AC motor with a potentiometer you literally have to make it operate in a way that will burn out your motor eventually.

Buy a kill-a-watt meter and watch as you slow the motor the amperage will spike past the nameplate rating before it slows down.




    This is the end of a series of excellent points just brought up on the matter. I edited my earlier posts. In my haste, I used 'potentiometer' too loosely as I'm primarily DC / electronic circuit focused, despite the fact I was clearly talking about AC fan controls. Further compounded by the nuances of potentiometers and frequency controls and even PWM (sometimes all three are used at once to control motor speed).

    I literally fused two conflicting topics despite knowing better. Also didn't even mean to focus on heat sinks so much as that ended up emphasizing what I meant as a minor point in my head. So beware the effects of over-caffeination!

    To bring us back into proper focus though, and to dive away from electronic details that will bore the masses, (such as a potentiometer controlling a VFD w/ PWM .. which I suspect may begin to create headaches if we dove into the nuances of it lol)I wish to summarize as follows...
   
    Varying speed in a precise manner allows you to get a over-capable blower and then turn it down to the perfect speed without having to calculate back pressures and etc concerns that most folks would have to study up on just to calculate in a rough and un-confident way.

    A perk to buying a pre-made flow hood is that the three components filter, blower, and box, are all perfectly matched already. Variable speed lets you take whatever blower, so long as its not too weak, and match it with any size/shape of box as well as most if not all filters.

  In my case, I took a moderately used commercial dayton blower, spent $80 on a speed controller, and 3-400 for a laminar filter from fungi perfecti. I likely over spent a bit on the filter but I am perfectly fine with the peace of mind as well as supporting that site. I then spent perhaps $30-$40 at the hardware store for wood and glue. I had a box of screws and saws already. I got the used blower from an HVAC buddy who had a bunch sitting at the shop. Ask friends / neighbors if you know any, hell call a few HVAC shops if you are in a urban or suburban area you are likely to find a free / dirt cheap used blower rather quickly.

    Total cost? lets call it $500 and an afternoon of assembly. I now have a 6inch thick 2x2 foot filter filter mounted in an ugly box that works like a champ and will probably require a cleaning and lubricating once every 5 years. Keep in mind, I'm a rather proactive guy - it may well last much longer before needing service.


    OP - TL;DR, if your in doubt on your original question then I advocate buying a slightly bigger blower and also buy a quality speed controller. Problem solved, as you can then decrease fan speed until you achieve smooth laminar flow. But I do recommend a high quality filter, and a high quality speed controller. You can use cheap plywood, cheap glue, and used HVAC blowers forever.

Edited by syroth (07/10/19 05:22 PM)

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Re: Laminar build [Re: Edmunter]
    #26100838 -

Here's a cool vid, about laminar flow.. You'll enjoy It..

The More You Know..

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26029256


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Edited by micelio (07/10/19 06:19 PM)

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Re: Laminar build [Re: micelio]
    #26101062 -

A potentiometer used to control a VFD is just a VFD of course a VFD is going to be made from other common components.

If you google vari speed you'll see the kind of speed controllers people typically use for flowhoods. They're a kind of rheostat. They're bad for motors, but yes they're used all the time. Good fans will just be wired for multiple speeds and a switch that toggles output to different windings on the motor.


--------------------
Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
Bod's chat thread

5g a day keeps the 5g away

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Re: Laminar build [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26101158 -

I understand exactly what your saying. Allot of good information.

I have never had the desire to have a motor speed controller.
I like keeping it simple. Control the airspeed at the intake of the blower. Set and forget. Why would anyone want to change the airspeed once you have it set to a desirable velocity? (100 fpm. on the average)

Some of these cheap motor controllers are not potentiometer (variable resisters) but fixed resisters with a selector switch, With three speed settings..

Good fans will just be wired for multiple speeds and a switch that toggles output to different windings on the motor.

This statement you made would be the sweet way to go..


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Re: Laminar build [Re: micelio]
    #26101515 -

So what fan would you suggest for this job.  Is it better going bigger and then scaling down with the frequency drive.  Some help with a frequency drive would be much appreciated too.



600 m2/h at 100PA  filter



What other gadgets do you recommend to check airflow ect

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Re: Laminar build [Re: Edmunter]
    #26101938 -

This is the blower you need for the 24x24x5.8 inch.
It's more than what you need but that is a plus.
Buying a blower that is a little bigger than what you need will allow for your pre-filter and give you that muscle you need years from now when or if your hepa filter loads up with crap.

The next blower down in size (Dayton) is not enough cfm

https://www.grainger.com/product/DAYTON-Rectangular-Permanent-Split-1TDU2
You might have to click on the links to find Product Details,Then look under Technical Specs..

This blower sells at e-bay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dayton-Model-1TDU2-Blower-1202-CFM1390-RPM-115-230V-60-50hz-4C831/182705946449?epid=710147623&hash=item2a8a1f7f51:g:0vwAAOSwFqJWsOr

I wouldn't waist your money on a motor controller. You don't need It.
Block off part of the blower intake with cardboard and duck tape. To get your desired airspeed.

The Dayton 1TDU2 is the same blower Fungi Perfecti use on their 24x24x5.8 filter..


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Cultivation
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