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Offlinethisbliss
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12psi PC for grains
    #26085900 - 07/02/19 10:23 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Having trouble with grains. Keep stalling after I shake them usually after a week. Thought it was water content but have tried a variation of preparations and still no joy. I'm using agar and a SAB to innoc so I'm pretty sure that sides taken care of.

It's left me thinking it must be the PC. It's 12 psi and I boil for 2 hours as I thought this would be more than enough to compensate for required 1.5hours at 15psi. I had read that increase in pressure is not proportional to time required and that it doesn't take much longer if pressure is decreased.

Of course I'm questioning this now. Anyone recommend anything? I'm thinking of boiling for 3 hours next time just to eliminate that as the weak link

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Offlinekayo
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Re: 12psi PC for grains [Re: thisbliss]
    #26085946 - 07/02/19 10:45 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

What size jars are you using? Mine does half pints and pints at 11psi max (its not even constant) for 1.5 hours just fine.

Whats your land height (above sea level)? If youre in a mountainous area you may need to increase either your cooking times or your psi to compensate.

(nevermind, saw you said agar.)

Edited by kayo (07/02/19 10:46 AM)

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OfflineShaperDreaming
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Re: 12psi PC for grains [Re: thisbliss]
    #26085954 - 07/02/19 10:49 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

After doing a bit of research I would recommend 2.5 hours @ 12psi if you're using jars. What sized jars are you using?

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InvisibleMegan
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Re: 12psi PC for grains [Re: ShaperDreaming]
    #26086012 - 07/02/19 11:20 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Why are you boiling for 2 hrs?  What tek are you using? I’m just curious. The standard practice for preparing grain spawn is to soak the grain for 12hrs in water to hydrate the grain and germinate bacterial endospores, and then the grain is brought to a boil. Then, the stove gets turned off once a boil has been reached to avoid bursting the grain which would give a vector for bacteria to take hold. Once strained and steam is no longer coming off of the grain, the grain is loaded into a quart jar 2/3 of the way up the quart jar and PC’d at 15psi with a proper lid and filter for 90mins.

When my PC wouldn’t hit 15psi, I had success by taping a quarter to the rocker to get it up to where it read 15psi. I had to play with the heat setting on the stove, but it worked. Other than modifying the rocker, I’ve increased the time from 90 to 120 mins and that worked as well at 12psi.

Edited by Megan (07/02/19 11:29 AM)

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OfflineShaperDreaming
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Re: 12psi PC for grains [Re: Megan]
    #26086109 - 07/02/19 12:23 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Megan said:
The standard practice for preparing grain spawn is to soak the grain for 12hrs.




Not that what you're saying doesn't work, but it seems like the soaking part has been left a bit to the side in favor of a boil->PC cycle. At least for oats: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=24126032&page=0&vc=1#24126032

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InvisibleMegan
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Re: 12psi PC for grains [Re: ShaperDreaming]
    #26086204 - 07/02/19 01:02 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

I’m of the belief that soaking is unnecessary, so I definitely agree with you that soaking isn’t always required. When I hear that someone is dealing with a contamination issue, I try to cover all the possible bases I can think of to help solve the problem like others have for me.

I’m of the opinion that the 2hr boil is too long and therefore causing the grains to burst from over hydration which gives a vector for contamination to take hold. I would reduce the boil to 30mins max to reduce the burst grains, and make sure you are letting the oats dry enough before loading. I’d let them sit in the colander for 30 mins before loading into quart jars. You can always use the toilet paper trick that RR demonstrates in his Let’s Grow Mushrooms video to double check that  the grain isn’t too wet if you’re in doubt after letting the grains sit for 30 mins in the colander. In my experience, 12 psi never caused my grains to contam so long as I PC’d for 120 mins and made sure my grains’ moisture content was on point.

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Offlinethisbliss
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Re: 12psi PC for grains [Re: Megan]
    #26086289 - 07/02/19 01:45 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Is the 2hour boil not more for the pc not the actual prep of the grain?

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Offlinethisbliss
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Re: 12psi PC for grains [Re: thisbliss]
    #26086316 - 07/02/19 01:59 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Ok my jars are slightly smaller than quart. They're old cooking sauce jars. Easiest available and maximize my space in the pc cos of their shape.

My most recent grain prep was (at the advice of others) 24 hour soak, 10-15 min boil simply to heat up grain and water so it will evaporate. I was advised get the outside mostly dry and inside will be ok. Then load into jars.

Before this I had tried boiling only for 25-45 mins and varying drying times before loading. I found that after the pc they tend to lose the excess moisture anyway.

From further research on 12psi pc it looks like this may not be a problem which only leaves my agar work as the culprit. Bit annoyed if this is the case as I am very meticulous. I only transfer twice usually and start with mushroom tissue. I rarely get contam on my plate unless there is something hidden I am not recognising. You'd have thought at least one jar in about 20 would've made it thru. They never get even 50% colonised and yet never show obvious contam just stall out.

I'm going to give this run a go and try to satisfy myself re. The pc and water content. In addition I'm trying millet and rye for the first time. Before it's just been a predominantly wheat wbs. I've hear advice before how some grains just don't work for some people or conditions?? Who knows mayb this wbs is not suitable.

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OfflineWorkman70
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Re: 12psi PC for grains [Re: thisbliss]
    #26086332 - 07/02/19 02:10 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

1. How are you doing your lids?

2. Are the grains separating at the shake, or clumping?

3. Any strange smells in the jars?

I do big runs of milo..I dump the boiling barrel into mesh drawers to drain. after 30 minutes I cover the tops of the grain with a dusting of dry vermiculite and toss like a salad then straight to the bags or jars. It really helps me work faster and buffers the moisture.

Could be hidden bacteria. That shits a bitch if it's the culture.

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Offlinekayo
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Re: 12psi PC for grains [Re: thisbliss]
    #26086415 - 07/02/19 02:52 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

So youre using WBS? Soaking for 24hr AND boiling for 10-15 minutes? Dont boil, just heat to boiling or almost boiling and strain it. Lets see those jars!

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Offlinethisbliss
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Re: 12psi PC for grains [Re: kayo]
    #26086527 - 07/02/19 03:53 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Lids 6mm hole with micropore tape.

Yea after a bitta shake complete ly separate. Now that I think some of the jars do actually continue to colonise a bit at the new shaken points of contact all thru the jar but stall shortly after.

Some smell a bit off when opened. Majority have a pleasant smell or earthy mycelium smell.

Hope it's not the culture. I've started from different mushrooms each time so it's not like I'm taking from one contaminated agar batch. As I said you'd think at least one would've made it or at least got half colonised.

Yep wbs but this new batch is the first I've tried a soak prior to boiling.

Will get pics in the morning.

Thanks for advice so far everyone

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Offlinekayo
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Re: 12psi PC for grains [Re: thisbliss]
    #26087594 - 07/03/19 07:01 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

thisbliss said:
Lids 6mm hole with micropore tape.





Micropore tape is no good for colonizing jars. Unless its PF tek but then theyre not even needed. This is probably why its getting contaminated.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13643478#13643478

Get something like tyvek, SFD, or stuff some polyfill through the hole as tightly as you can.

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Offlineverum subsequentis
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Re: 12psi PC for grains [Re: kayo]
    #26087773 - 07/03/19 08:51 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

I'd try a longer PC cycle (I don't know the exact answer to the 12 psi question).
Be sure to properly vent the pc. Don't put the weight on until 10 minutes after it starts solidly steaming.
Upload pictures of your culture on agar and jars with clear picture of the grain.
Get some synthetic filter disk material and rtv that over your holes.
My guess is either bacteria in your culture or remaining in your grain.

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Offlinethisbliss
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Re: 12psi PC for grains [Re: verum subsequentis]
    #26088150 - 07/03/19 01:03 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Currently have a batch in the pc. Got some adhesive tyvek on a couple of them see if it makes a difference.

Why does pc require 10 mins of steam venting?

Going to give it 2.5-3 hours I think.

Ok pics. Here is an agar tub...



A few of the jars currently pcing. I think moisture is pretty much spot on. Dry on outside and rolling around. Inside is moist when I bite into a grain.




A few old jars. Hadn't checked these in a while but can now see definite signs of bacteria...


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OfflineShaperDreaming
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Re: 12psi PC for grains [Re: thisbliss]
    #26088182 - 07/03/19 01:13 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

thisbliss said:
Why does pc require 10 mins of steam venting?




So, this is in your PC manual, this isn't some weird shroomery thing FYI :wink:

Abridged version: Steam is what heats your shit in a PC, venting allows all the air to get out so it is only filled with steam, not air. Air is much slower to heat than steam, and any air that's in there can create temp pockets that are below "sterilizing" temps.

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Offlinethisbliss
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Re: 12psi PC for grains [Re: ShaperDreaming]
    #26088206 - 07/03/19 01:34 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Gotcha 👍😊

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Offlinethisbliss
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Re: 12psi PC for grains [Re: thisbliss]
    #26090002 - 07/04/19 12:09 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

5 jars pc'd for 3 hours. Agar wedges present.




Can you see the problem? Yep the bastard things look wet asf. How can this be?

They were dry as a bone on the outside when I loaded the jars. And jars were covered with tinfoil during the pc boil.

Beginning to lose patience. May just abandon grains altogether and go back to pf. I'd have had a load of mushrooms at this stage if I'd been devoting my time to pf.

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Offlinekayo
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Re: 12psi PC for grains [Re: thisbliss]
    #26090202 - 07/04/19 02:36 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

thisbliss said:
5 jars pc'd for 3 hours. Agar wedges present.




Can you see the problem? Yep the bastard things look wet asf. How can this be?

They were dry as a bone on the outside when I loaded the jars. And jars were covered with tinfoil during the pc boil.

Beginning to lose patience. May just abandon grains altogether and go back to pf. I'd have had a load of mushrooms at this stage if I'd been devoting my time to pf.




lol its fine. They always look wet after PCing. They were inside a pressurized container full of really hot steam, theyre going to be wet. After a day or two itll reabsorb back into the grains. After the PC all you really need to look out for is pooled water. A little water around where the grain touches glass is good.

Not sure what filters youre using but they look better than micropore tape at least. Good luck.

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Offlinethisbliss
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Re: 12psi PC for grains [Re: kayo]
    #26091285 - 07/05/19 10:14 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Haha thanks I've calmed down now! Myc has started to jump off the wedges which is good! I'm using a tyvek material I think with adhesive side on it. I got it off a mushroom cultivation site so it should be ok just hadn't bothered with it cos micropore tape seemed so handy.

Do you give your jars much light while colonising? Just occurred to me as I'm trying to think of everything and anything I could be doing wrong. I keep jars in a hot press cos it's nice and warm but there's no light. It's never been a problem with brf cakes.

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Offlineverum subsequentis
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Re: 12psi PC for grains [Re: thisbliss]
    #26091437 - 07/05/19 11:43 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

What's a hot press? I keep jars on the shelf in the grow room. 74 degrees with whatever amount of light they get from random grow lights and a window. Don't trip on how much light they get but do be sure not to apply strange heat from strange angles..... What's a hot press?

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