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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Whats your ideal drug policy?
    #26081871 - 06/30/19 02:07 AM (4 years, 6 months ago)

Imagine a world or country where every drug is legal. Would that be your ideal drug policy? Or would you rather there be specific restrictions on certain drugs?

For me, i would legalize all the safe, classic psychs and then have some kind of restrictive policy for the more dangerous drugs like coke, meth and heroin, to prevent accidental deaths.

What would your custom Drug Policy be like?


*fixed typos


Edited by LogicaL Chaos (04/30/22 03:15 AM)


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OfflineCreep
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26081882 - 06/30/19 02:23 AM (4 years, 6 months ago)

I would maintain heavy restrictions on opioids, meth and other highly addictive drugs. I would decriminalise or legalise marijuana, lsd and mushrooms et al,  but not before a 5 year period of teaching in schools and public education of the risks of these things on developing brains and psyches. Driving under the influence would be automatic licence ban. In the case of marijuana and driving I would set the limit high so people who had been high 24 hours prior to being tested weren't unjustly booked.


Edited by Creep (06/30/19 03:44 AM)


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: Creep]
    #26081908 - 06/30/19 03:17 AM (4 years, 6 months ago)

Very well thought out! I like it :takingnotes:


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26081965 - 06/30/19 04:59 AM (4 years, 6 months ago)

free drugs


and people should probably learn to use these things properly at a specialized facility with highly experienced/trained staff


i want to popularize this idea lol


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26092027 - 07/05/19 06:23 PM (4 years, 6 months ago)

This is just an idea, maybe not even a very good one, but I wanted to throw this out there anyway:

Possession is legal, but you should have to get a licence to use (to buy) certain drugs. This would require classes, maybe a lot of classes, that teach you about the experience and the dangers involved. You'd have to follow rules, use in a safe way, etc. otherwise your licence could be suspended.

Different drugs would have different restrictions depending on their relative danger. MDPV for example would still be completely 100% banned.

For opiates, there would be the most restrictions. The government would be the only supplier. You'd have to abide by a shitton of rules (like not breaking the law, holding down a job, etc.) in order to be able to buy them. You'd have to buy them and use them in a place surrounded by info on how to quit, with as much support for people who want to quit as humanly possible. If you broke a rule (such as by breaking the law) the dose you'd be allowed to buy would be cut in half. Breaking another would cut it in half again, and so on. If, on the other hand, you obeyed all the rules, broke no laws, maintained a good job, etc. then your dose could be increased back to its original amount over time with good behavior.

Psychedelics would require a shitton of classes to educate people on how to use them right. They might even require you to use them in controlled environments at first, like at hospital type places run by doctors, or psychologists, that kind of thing. Over time, perhaps you could apply for a licence to use them at your own home; if you jumped through enough hoops, took enough classes, etc. MDMA and MDMA like drugs would probably work the same. Same for dissociatives probably.

For simple stimulants like adderall, ritalin, you should have to take some classes, and the amount you'd be allowed would be closely restricted, monitored, and kept to a medically useful amount. Other stimulants (eg: meth) might not be available for sale. Probably the same for benzos, but with more restrictions, and more help to quit, more classes, etc.

Deliriants and other genuinely bad drugs would not be available for sale.

Still, through all of this possession would be legal, but your drugs might be confiscated if you don't have a licence.


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InvisibleCitizen X
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: nooneman]
    #26092032 - 07/05/19 06:25 PM (4 years, 6 months ago)

Good question

How about something like the Netherlands?


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OfflineMguishroom
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: nooneman]
    #26760304 - 06/20/20 05:17 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Possession is legal, but you should have to get a licence to use (to buy) certain drugs.  You'd have to follow rules, use in a safe way, etc. otherwise your licence could be suspended.





The only issue I see with this is that it would create another situation that could potentially penalize petty drug users and that is a main reason to abolish the war on drugs. Also when you create a situation where each drug has to be used a specific way, this would not allow for people to be able to fully immerse themselves and engage in the experience they want to. While its hard to accept sometimes people will do reckless things but just due to this being dangerous that does not necessarily mean it should be outlawed. The drug education is a great idea and yes should be mandatory but I would say after that people should be free to use the knowledge to their own choice and extent. Therefore foster creativity and freedom of exploration. If they have gone through the classes lets say growing up in school, learn all they need to know and then choose to not follow the rules, they only have themselves to blame. The only time drug users should be criminalized is when their actions lead to the harm of another human.


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OfflineMguishroom
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: Mguishroom]
    #26760308 - 06/20/20 05:18 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mguishroom said:
Quote:

nooneman said:
Possession is legal, but you should have to get a licence to use (to buy) certain drugs.  You'd have to follow rules, use in a safe way, etc. otherwise your licence could be suspended.





The only issue I see with this is that it would create another situation that could potentially penalize petty drug users and that is a main reason to abolish the war on drugs. Also when you create a situation where each drug has to be used a specific way, this would not allow for people to be able to fully immerse themselves and engage in the experience they want to. While its hard to accept sometimes people will do reckless things but just due to this being dangerous that does not necessarily mean it should be outlawed. The drug education is a great idea and yes should be mandatory but I would say after that people should be free to use the knowledge to their own choice and extent. Therefore foster creativity and freedom of exploration. If they have gone through the classes lets say growing up in school, learn all they need to know and then choose to not follow the rules, they only have themselves to blame. The only time drug users should be criminalized is when their actions lead to the harm of another human.




wow did not see how old the thread was :confused:


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: nooneman]
    #26760312 - 06/20/20 05:18 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

U need a licence to buy certain drugs?

Treat those drugs like they are motor vehicles which sometimes gets into accidents :sadyes:

I think thats a great idea! :takingnotes:


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26829958 - 07/17/20 11:44 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Completely legal with manufacturing only regulating waste and making sure its disposed of safely and properly


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: budmanman] * 1
    #26831611 - 07/18/20 10:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I know this thread is old but there's been some recent activity so here's my :twocents::twocents:

Legalize all drugs. Have an "allow but discourage" stance towards substances with more harm & abuse potential. Put drug policy in the hands of health-departments rather than a judicial departments. Provide education & mental health support alongside the sale of drugs. This has been shown to be effective by plenty of studies in the past. (Namely studies on alcohol prohibition, drug prohibition in portugal, but also other studies)

The reason why decriminalization alone does not work is that it maintains organized crime and we become complicit in the violence caused by the underground market. The only solution is a properly regulated market.

The fact is that as much as we become complicit in the safe use of people using drugs under legalization (a legitimate concern), by criminalizing buyers OR suppliers, we become complicit in the unsafe use, and the violence behind drug use that is magnified by criminalization.

Problematic drug use is a fact of modern society as it exists right now. The choice is in whether we provide those who use drugs with informed consent and support, and whether or not we want criminal organizations to benefit off of, and murder on behalf of, the system we have in place.


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Edited by Rhizomorph (07/18/20 10:52 PM)


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #27317504 - 05/21/21 12:26 PM (2 years, 8 months ago)



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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #27756273 - 04/29/22 08:34 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

I've lost all faith in the system to do anything that leads to a positive outcome.

Prohibition is a disaster, and if the weed scene is any indication, legalization will just be a different sort of disaster.

In the real world, I'm on the sidelines keeping my head down, and gently encouraging people to get off of cocaine/opiates/nicotine, and to think critically about how much they drink and smoke weed.

In my fantasy world, EVERYthing is restricted/regulated.

There is one sole caveat: if you can grow it, and use it for personal consumption only, then you get a pass.

Everything else is regulated to an extreme degree.

Weed and mushrooms are fine to produce and sell as a private individual, but you can't actually set up a large company or hire employees. Gotta keep it small-scale. Local committees of growers would provide oversight, and mete out fines for people who weren't in it for the love of the craft and/or tried to pass off shittily cured weed or nasty shrooms. On the consumer side, joker smokers who haggled and bullshitted people would be publicly shamed and put on "do not sell" lists.

Opium, cocaine, and meth would be strictly regulated. The usual players would be paid over the odds to produce directly for the government, and in a sustainable fashion. Every adult citizen in good standing would be permitted to buy a few pure grams of each per year, after suitable lectures/warnings/checkups. Pharmaceutical uses for cocaine, opiates, and stimulants would continue, but under a much higher degree of scrutiny and regulation. However, old-school trucker's aspirin would be legalized again (underground meth production having been eliminated).

LSD and MDMA would just be pharmaceutical drugs, prescribed by licensed professionals.

Tobacco would only be legal under the "grow whatever you want for personal use" clause. Commercial tobacco production would be outlawed.

Alcohol would be similar to how it is now, but there would be some sort of education program that you'd have to go through in order to legally buy booze. The alcohol industry would be more restricted in its advertising, and would have to hold itself to high standards of sustainability. Also, I'd lower the drinking age and raise the driving age, and make any sort of drug-assisted rape a much more serious crime.

Refined sugar would also be treated like a drug- no longer subsidized, and with serious restrictions on its use in a commercial setting.

Edit:
Legalize khat completely, and make salvia freely available while waiting in line at the DMV.


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Edited by B Traven (04/29/22 08:44 AM)


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? *DELETED* [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #27756276 - 04/29/22 08:38 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by SharaVabdas

Reason for deletion: Shroomery is full of bigots and I'm leaving.


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: B Traven] * 1
    #27757170 - 04/30/22 01:18 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

So essentially decriminalize drugs you can grow in personal amounts, medicalize opium, cocaine & meth (you can grow opium and coca leaves though :confused:) for, what I presume you're trying to get at is for people with pre-existing substance use disorders? (this being the higher degree of scrutiny??).

LSD and mushrooms medicalized without consideration of non-therapeutic/unregulated uses?? (e.g., entheogenic, Indigenous ceremonies, recreation, self-exploration, productivity... the list goes on)

Alcohol is more restricted but still less so than cocaine or meth despite it being more harmful overall??

I don't know dude... this feels like it sort of appeals to a nature bias & isn't consistent with the relatives harms, benefits, cultural uses, best practices and research surrounding drugs and drug policy. The false dichotomy between "hard drugs" and "soft drugs" also seems apparent when the relative proportion of variance in drug harms due to drugs like meth or cocaine is more attributable to social causes (stigma leading to lack of access to safe supply, health services & harm reduction) than the harms of the drugs themselves. The actual impact of the drugs themselves on the body are a tiny piece of the pie when it comes to harms.

It also doesn't solve the problem of the two-tiered drug markets (criminal & regulated markets existing simultaneously) as your proposed system incentivizes ilicit access routes which would be lower-barrier in said system. The two tiered system likewise maintains transnational chains of violence and flows of money into things like terrorism, kidnappings, torture, and the list goes on.

I say legalize them all and make the barriers to accessing drugs with greater abuse liability cultural not judicial; make people aware of the harms and utilize educational, and age-based pre-conditions to access. Maybe make access mail-order only with a reasonable waiting period. This way people will be less likely to access drugs through everyday micro-interactions but if they are really that motivated to access them they can go out of their way to do so in a safe way with access to health services and the whatnot.

Lastly, and arguably most importantly: How does cognitive liberty fit into your ideal world??


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Edited by Rhizomorph (04/30/22 01:19 AM)


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: SharaVabdas]
    #27757175 - 04/30/22 01:27 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SharaVabdas said:
Legalization tends to lead to monied interests controlling the markets and disempowers smaller actors trying to build their livelihood in the industry. It involves a lot more certification and licensing costs that are prohibitively expensive.



Is this a problem with legalization or a problem with neoliberalism?? (essentially free-market capitalism if you're unfamiliar with the term)

Nobody is out here saying that we should prohibit insulin just because it is heavily monetized; the health & social gains of insulin being available are enormous, and likewise with legalizing drugs.

I agree this is a problem, but A) I believe this is more of an economic policy issue and B) Even if we can't address the monetary issue, I'd rather have monetization than the violence and deaths that currently occur under prohibition.


Edited by Rhizomorph (05/12/22 03:22 AM)


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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #27757230 - 04/30/22 05:53 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

It's imaginationland, bro.

My avatar is an Anarchist.

In the real world, I'm just along for the ride in this shitshow.


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Edited by B Traven (04/30/22 05:54 AM)


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: B Traven]
    #27757234 - 04/30/22 06:04 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Also, re-read my proposal.

Mushrooms are only regulated by local committees, just to make sure that the grow scene isn't taken over by jokers pumping out half-rotten bullshit (just like weed).

LSD and MDMA are the pharmaceuticals (which they always were). And it's assumed that any pharmaceuticals will be diverted to the recreational market. But at least they're pure, and have warnings and whatnot attached to them.

I thought about alcohol, the problem with it is that you can make it from just about anything, and society/culture/our bodies interpret it as a type of food. So I just said, eh, why fight all that.

The point of the cocaine and opium restrictions was to make the imaginary perfect government take on control of everyone's id, so we can all do our 1-3 binges a year if we so choose.

Again, imaginationland...


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: B Traven] * 1
    #27758113 - 04/30/22 09:05 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

B Traven said:
It's imaginationland, bro.

My avatar is an Anarchist.

In the real world, I'm just along for the ride in this shitshow.



I'm not flaming ya or anything. Just asking questions respectfully :tongue2:

In my ideal imaginationland drug policy doesn't exist because there's no need to regulate drugs in an ideal world and we can take drugs whenever we want without risk of harm. In imaginationland the question of regulating drugs would be as alien to us as the question of regulating sand
:rail2:


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Edited by Rhizomorph (04/30/22 09:06 PM)


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? *DELETED* [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #27758798 - 05/01/22 02:23 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by SharaVabdas

Reason for deletion: Shroomery is full of bigots and I'm leaving.


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #27759734 - 05/02/22 09:13 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Rhizomorph said:

In my ideal imaginationland drug policy doesn't exist because there's no need to regulate drugs in an ideal world and we can take drugs whenever we want without risk of harm. In imaginationland the question of regulating drugs would be as alien to us as the question of regulating sand
:rail2:




Cheers to that!

I've seen some examples of that, even to the point of influencing laws and enforcement- things like traditional fermented drinks, bhang, and even psilocybes in some countries.

I'm honestly more worried about the environmental impact of substances than their effect on peoples' mental states. I think people should be free to do whatever they want with their minds and bodies, but I also have a lot of issues with what constitutes freedom and informed consent. I don't think that, for example, letting 13 year olds take up smoking, without information or understanding about its long-term effects, represents meaningful freedom.

But yeah, seriously, the only drug policies I'm making are personal ones, about what to take/buy/sell/grow. And the ones I fantasize most about from a legal/societal standpoint mostly deal with quality control and avoiding douchebaggery. Like, why the fuck do people have to deal with fentanyl or levamisole in their cocaine? That's just completely unnecessary. Like, I'll just take the baseline level of danger and long-term heart damage, please.


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: SharaVabdas] * 2
    #27760776 - 05/02/22 11:19 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SharaVabdas said:
Good point. My ideal drug policy is to entirely dismantle the state, now that you mention it.



I feel that...


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: B Traven] * 2
    #27760777 - 05/02/22 11:21 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

B Traven said:
Quote:

Rhizomorph said:

In my ideal imaginationland drug policy doesn't exist because there's no need to regulate drugs in an ideal world and we can take drugs whenever we want without risk of harm. In imaginationland the question of regulating drugs would be as alien to us as the question of regulating sand
:rail2:




Cheers to that!

I've seen some examples of that, even to the point of influencing laws and enforcement- things like traditional fermented drinks, bhang, and even psilocybes in some countries.

I'm honestly more worried about the environmental impact of substances than their effect on peoples' mental states. I think people should be free to do whatever they want with their minds and bodies, but I also have a lot of issues with what constitutes freedom and informed consent. I don't think that, for example, letting 13 year olds take up smoking, without information or understanding about its long-term effects, represents meaningful freedom.

But yeah, seriously, the only drug policies I'm making are personal ones, about what to take/buy/sell/grow. And the ones I fantasize most about from a legal/societal standpoint mostly deal with quality control and avoiding douchebaggery. Like, why the fuck do people have to deal with fentanyl or levamisole in their cocaine? That's just completely unnecessary. Like, I'll just take the baseline level of danger and long-term heart damage, please.



Agreeed! Age restrictions actually have an evidence base for being effective in reducing harm unlike adult prohibition.

Safe supply saves lives!


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Offlinehigh_desert
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #27798512 - 05/30/22 01:28 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Imagine a world or country where every drug is legal. Would that be your ideal drug policy? Or would you rather there be specific restrictions on certain drugs?

For me, i would legalize all the safe, classic psychs and then have some kind of restrictive policy for the more dangerous drugs like coke, meth and heroin, to prevent accidental deaths.

What would your custom Drug Policy be like?


*fixed typos




I agree with this. I think mushrooms should be controlled like legal weed, LSD should be completely decriminalized but somehow not generally available to the public in, and heroin meth and coke should be decriminalized. Caging people for drug use alone is barbaric.

A real question I have is what do we do about alcohol.. After all my years working in an ER I think alcohol and heroin share the top spot for the worst drugs. Alcohol's effect on society is like a slow motion 50 car pileup and its severe effects on the individual is pretty much what it's like when people lose it to dementia. Heroin bleeds people dry like a vampire and kills them slow, makes them desperate and it's very sad. But over the course of a few hours alcohol can make a relatively normal person completely insane, dangerous irresponsible weapon and the hardcore long term physical effects of it are terrifying... It looks like a fever dream in hell. Of all the messed up drug events i saw in an ER, the alcohol related ones were far and away the worst, and I've frequently seen and fought with people in deep violent meth psychosis. In 6 years I never once saw any problematic patients on lsd or mushrooms, except one 14 year old with preexisting severe psychological issues.

Anyway, I always like to bring up alcohol in any discussion about psychs legality because the fact that alcohol is legal and encouraged in the US but psilocybin, mdma and lsd are not only illegal but schedule 1 is so profoundly wrong that it made me lose faith in society from a young age and I never really got it back.

I can go on and on about this sorry..


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: high_desert] * 1
    #27798933 - 05/30/22 11:18 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

high_desert said:
Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Imagine a world or country where every drug is legal. Would that be your ideal drug policy? Or would you rather there be specific restrictions on certain drugs?

For me, i would legalize all the safe, classic psychs and then have some kind of restrictive policy for the more dangerous drugs like coke, meth and heroin, to prevent accidental deaths.

What would your custom Drug Policy be like?


*fixed typos




I agree with this. I think mushrooms should be controlled like legal weed, LSD should be completely decriminalized but somehow not generally available to the public in, and heroin meth and coke should be decriminalized. Caging people for drug use alone is barbaric.

A real question I have is what do we do about alcohol.. After all my years working in an ER I think alcohol and heroin share the top spot for the worst drugs. Alcohol's effect on society is like a slow motion 50 car pileup and its severe effects on the individual is pretty much what it's like when people lose it to dementia. Heroin bleeds people dry like a vampire and kills them slow, makes them desperate and it's very sad. But over the course of a few hours alcohol can make a relatively normal person completely insane, dangerous irresponsible weapon and the hardcore long term physical effects of it are terrifying... It looks like a fever dream in hell. Of all the messed up drug events i saw in an ER, the alcohol related ones were far and away the worst, and I've frequently seen and fought with people in deep violent meth psychosis. In 6 years I never once saw any problematic patients on lsd or mushrooms, except one 14 year old with preexisting severe psychological issues.

Anyway, I always like to bring up alcohol in any discussion about psychs legality because the fact that alcohol is legal and encouraged in the US but psilocybin, mdma and lsd are not only illegal but schedule 1 is so profoundly wrong that it made me lose faith in society from a young age and I never really got it back.

I can go on and on about this sorry..




It's interesting how Prohibition gets trotted out as an "example" of how criminalizing drug use doesn't work.

It really seems like we've lost all historical context on how Prohibition came to be, and also what it actually meant.

All your experiences in the ER times 100. Dudes blowing their entire paychecks on booze, letting their kids starve, and beating on their wives. It still happens today, of course, but shit like that was rampant in the early 20th century. There was a legit full-blown social and public health crisis, and the sort of alcohol abuse that was rife in a lot of communities was completely incompatible with the advancement of women in society.

As for Prohibition itself, it was a lot more like "The entire US is a dry county" than it was a 1990's style war on drugs. People didn't go to prison for having a couple beers on them. Al Capone went down for tax evasion.

All in all, it was probably just a reaction to an insane situation, and probably did help temper some of the madness.

But what can you do, really? Alcohol is probably the easiest drug to produce, and it's now been introduced to every culture on earth. People will always find a way to make and consume it. I guess it's ultimately down to socialization and advertising.


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Edited by B Traven (05/30/22 11:19 AM)


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Offlinehigh_desert
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: B Traven]
    #27804976 - 06/03/22 10:05 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

I just think there has to be some kind of uniformity in substance laws that reflects the actual dangers of the substances. I definitely don't think alcohol prohibition is practical or even necessary but the hypocrisy of psilocybin and thc prohibition in the face of alcohol's neverending havok on society is just deeply wrong. If the negative effects are certainly less than alcohol, then how could any society in good conscience prohibit them so strongly? When it comes to locking people up in cages for abstract harms to society then matters of principle should matter immensely.
Of course we all know that these laws are relics of an unconscionable attack on dissenting voices in American society.. Back then AND now the use of these draconian laws are no different than Putin locking up his critics for whatever bullshit they can concoct or any other of a number of examples of such tyranny.


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: high_desert]
    #27805643 - 06/04/22 12:07 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

high_desert said:
I just think there has to be some kind of uniformity in substance laws that reflects the actual dangers of the substances. I definitely don't think alcohol prohibition is practical or even necessary but the hypocrisy of psilocybin and thc prohibition in the face of alcohol's neverending havok on society is just deeply wrong. If the negative effects are certainly less than alcohol, then how could any society in good conscience prohibit them so strongly? When it comes to locking people up in cages for abstract harms to society then matters of principle should matter immensely.
Of course we all know that these laws are relics of an unconscionable attack on dissenting voices in American society.. Back then AND now the use of these draconian laws are no different than Putin locking up his critics for whatever bullshit they can concoct or any other of a number of examples of such tyranny.




Psilocybin laws are another pretty wild story.

Pretty much amounts to an accident of history. I don't think anyone involved in passing those laws really knew or cared much about psilocybes at all.

There was research being conducted into both LSD and psilocybin as therapeutic drugs. That was the only reason hallucinogenic mushrooms were on the government's radar at all, rather than in the traditional shadows where they belonged. Then clowns like Timothy Leary blew the acid scene up, and naturally that lead to a moral panic. When they went to address LSD in legislation and regulations, they basically included mushrooms as an after-thought, since they were now associated with acid in the psychiatric literature. I don’t think there was really anyone to advocate for or against them when that all went down. They just got lumped in with a bunch of other stuff, and nobody has really known what to make of it ever since.

Not trying to get all radical and shit here, but to be fair, American society is and always has been pretty into repression and hypocrisy.


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OfflineNakedNexus
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: B Traven] * 1
    #27813469 - 06/10/22 02:26 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Not trying to get all radical and shit here, but to be fair, American society is and always has been pretty into repression and hypocrisy.




Oh for sure, just look at our attitudes towards sex; obsessed with it but censor everything regarding it. We are bat shit insane in our paradoxical natures. I think most of our crises devolve down to mental health issues on a global scale.


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 2
    #27892104 - 08/06/22 05:24 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

I'd make them all legal except for crap like bath salts, flakka and spice, and if somebody does something stupid, they'd have to do jailtime or probation with drug tests but they'd only be drug tested for the drug(s) that contributed to their stupidity. Each time they failed a drug test, they'd have to serve double the amount of jail time they did last time.


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: thirtygoats] * 1
    #27895926 - 08/09/22 02:05 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

I don't believe 'bath salts' are a valid pharmacological category. The term has traditionally been used by mass media to fuel a moral panic surrounding the use of Novel Psychoactive Substances (NPS); predominantly referring to cathinones.

I also don't believe there is a pharmacological or social basis for criminalizing cathinones over any other class of stimulant - methylone or mephedrone isn't much riskier to the individual nor society compared to traditional amphetamines such as methamphetamine. In fact, I would argue they are lower-risk in many instances

I won't lie, it sounds like you just don't like drugs which have become infamous in the media due to being poorly understood & a few case reports being sensationalized... Methamphetamine, cocaine, etc. etc. was the same at some point in time.

Legalize all drugs! (I.e., legalize the existence of drug users) :heart:

Quote:

thirtygoats said:
and if somebody does something stupid,



If somebody does something stupid why can't we just charge them for doing that stupid thing and not for the substance use? We do this with alcohol...

I encourage everyone in this thread to be weary of how War on Drugs-style thinking may be permeating our efforts to liberate people who use drugs (e.g., 'X drug is better than X drug' or 'we should mandate that people stop using drugs in X circumstances/for X drugs'). Too often we end up reproducing the very structures we are trying to resist in our resistance strategies & ideologies :super:


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Edited by Rhizomorph (08/09/22 02:10 PM)


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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #27898689 - 08/11/22 10:02 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rhizomorph said:
I don't believe 'bath salts' are a valid pharmacological category. The term has traditionally been used by mass media to fuel a moral panic surrounding the use of Novel Psychoactive Substances (NPS); predominantly referring to cathinones.

I also don't believe there is a pharmacological or social basis for criminalizing cathinones over any other class of stimulant - methylone or mephedrone isn't much riskier to the individual nor society compared to traditional amphetamines such as methamphetamine. In fact, I would argue they are lower-risk in many instances

I won't lie, it sounds like you just don't like drugs which have become infamous in the media due to being poorly understood & a few case reports being sensationalized... Methamphetamine, cocaine, etc. etc. was the same at some point in time.

Legalize all drugs! (I.e., legalize the existence of drug users) :heart:

Quote:

thirtygoats said:
and if somebody does something stupid,



If somebody does something stupid why can't we just charge them for doing that stupid thing and not for the substance use? We do this with alcohol...

I encourage everyone in this thread to be weary of how War on Drugs-style thinking may be permeating our efforts to liberate people who use drugs (e.g., 'X drug is better than X drug' or 'we should mandate that people stop using drugs in X circumstances/for X drugs'). Too often we end up reproducing the very structures we are trying to resist in our resistance strategies & ideologies :super:




Alcohol use is criminalized in some situations. Just as a for-instance, I got a "minor in possession" charge when I was 20. The cops shut down a keg party and interviewed every single person as they walked out the door. If you said you were 21, they checked your ID. If you said you hadn't been drinking, they breathalyzed you. If you failed the breathalyzer, they'd arrest you on the spot for providing false information. Basically, the only thing to do was say, "yes, been drinking, no, not 21" and collect your summons to appear before judge Roy Bean a month later. I later met someone from the same state where this happened who used the term "drunkard" on occasion. Wasn't like this guy didn't drink, either. That was just his preferred King James Bible way of talking about people who were too drunk for his liking and doing stupid shit.

From the taxation/financial issues, to the schizoid attitudes, to the racial disparities, American attitudes towards alcohol absolutely laid the psychic foundation for the war on drugs.

But I digress. Yeah, crack babies are a myth, and meth mouth is mainly just from pounding too much mountain dew and passing out with your mouth open. Every single criminalized drug got there because some "out" group was using it, and horror stories got out to the general public. Chinese men getting white women hooked on opium. Mexicans smoking Marijuana and losing their minds. Hippies dropping acid and turning gay/slutty/communist.

I'm pretty sure the big story with bath salts was the homeless man in South Florida who ate another guy's face off. I don't even know how true the story is, but I do know that there's a high probability that people in South Florida who are living under a bridge and smoking bath salts probably have lots of other psychological comorbidities. But a homeless zombie wacked out on some crazy new synthetic drug is the perfect boogie man for a moral panic.

I grew up in a time and place where PCP was wildly popular. At the end of the day, despite all the issues with that drug- many of which were just related to purity and inconsistent dosing- I only ever heard one really fucked up story about it, and that was just a kid who smoked and started seizing up. Never knew anyone who put their fist through a plate glass window or lost their shit in any other way. Just lots of sleepy conversations with people who were rather obviously "on drugs."

All the craziest shit happens on alcohol, or alcohol in combination with something else, and you're right, for the most part we just let it slide and address the behavior.

I'm actually pretty fed up with all the  conversations around legalizing weed, and statements like "we can put the bad guys out of business" or "weed should be legal because it's harmless." Like you said, it really is drug war thinking. Nothing is truly harmless, the "bad guys" have done a pretty good job of supplying the world with weed, and corporate cannabis seems perfectly poised to shit the bed on just aboit every level.

Proper mental health care would go a long way towards addressing these issues, as would a revamping and expansion of various social services. But then they wouldn't have as many psychological issues to exploit and profit from, and people might not put up with as much abuse at work if they lost their fear of poverty.


Edited by B Traven (08/11/22 10:07 AM)


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: B Traven] * 2
    #27914255 - 08/22/22 08:00 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

B Traven said:
But then they wouldn't have as many psychological issues to exploit and profit from, and people might not put up with as much abuse at work if they lost their fear of poverty.



So...in short, capitalism is to blame?

(slightly joking but only partially; the issue evidently intersects with other economic & social policies & social inequality as a whole)

I agree with everything you said. If 'good' drugs caused an opioid epidemic and the 'bad' drugs can cure PTSD, we have to not only start having - but also normalize - discourse that interrogates drug war logic.

repeating to people that bath salts are just cathinones twisted into a terrible image of face eating by the media, which often sides with the war on drugs, gets tiresome; not everyone is intent on learning when they often have a personal attachment to drug war logic that helps cope when confronted by the complex & uncertain terrain of psychoactives' risks and benefits (not referring to anyone on here, but the general public, for clarification!). "hard drugs" and "soft drugs" is an appealing dichotomy for those who have little background in psychopharmacology or drug policy. Yet this heuristic contradicts every empirically sound study on drug harms (e.g., Nutt et al.) when considering both harms to individual & society.

Again, it's drug war logic and I've seen this theme underpinning most of the drug policies suggested in this thread; we are ironically assuming drug war logic in our very efforts to resist the drug war when we categorize drugs this way. each drug requires an extensive review of its psychopharmacology & impact on society to determine an individual drug policy for each drug.

This is just the ongoing struggle though. Good on ya for being informed :hug:


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Edited by Rhizomorph (08/22/22 08:02 PM)


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Invisiblethetruthsohelp
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: Rhizomorph] * 1
    #28166149 - 01/31/23 03:42 PM (11 months, 20 days ago)

DO I own my own body and mind or does the state? Thats really what it boils down too. 100% legalization, all drugs accross the board is the policy i would choose.


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: thetruthsohelp]
    #28167353 - 02/01/23 10:37 AM (11 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

thetruthsohelp said:
DO I own my own body and mind or does the state? Thats really what it boils down too. 100% legalization, all drugs accross the board is the policy i would choose.



I think this is too simple... I argue that we need to look at it as a spectrum, not a dichotomy; I.e., autonomy as a continuum. Some people have less & some have more; there is no absolute freedom or constraint (this is essentially social conflict theory).

Nobody has full autonomy; we give that one up to enjoy collective freedoms such as healthcare, freedom from risk of bodily harm &/or death (we give up the freedom to not wear a seatbelt). The freedom to have affordable healthcare (healthcare costs cannot sustain people being stupid at mass-scale). On a deeper level, we give up some degree of autonomy during micro-interactions with other individuals & cultures on a day-to-day basis as well.

We exist in a constant push and pull of autonomy and structural limitations; we reproduce social norms or break them; but nobody is free of some constraint and thus, social control is an inherent part of life.

So the institutions need rules governing individual autonomy only to the extent necessary. The political debate often regards what is actually necessary; where do we break the rules (laws or social norms) and when do we reinforce them (we can all agree rape is bad, for example).

-----------------

I agree with legalization, but there needs to be systems in place to avoid the burden on the medical system - which is shared & utilized collectively, as well as paid for by tax dollars. There are effective ways to do this but we must recognize that there likely requires some degree of structural constraint on individuals' autonomy. Screening procedures, psychoeducation, waiting periods, etc. are a must if we don't want to see the opioid crisis just skyrocket (more rapidly than it already is, that is).

People should be allowed to access a pharmaceutical supply of drugs, especially if they are treating a medical condition (substance use disorders) which can be deadly due to the contaminated drug supply, and deadly withdrawals (e.g., benzos). But, we can't just have your local gas station selling heroin to any passerby who feels the impulse to try while just going about their Saturday afternoon.

Classical psychedelics are a different story, but we need laws consistent with the psychopharmacology of each chem; not blanket policies that are rooted in racist drug war logics. The same goes for unrealistic ideals surrounding legalization & purist notions of liberty (that could probably never exist outside an extremely chaotic/lawless society anyways)


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Edited by Rhizomorph (02/01/23 10:38 AM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: thetruthsohelp] * 3
    #28177329 - 02/08/23 09:06 AM (11 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

thetruthsohelp said:
DO I own my own body and mind or does the state? Thats really what it boils down too. 100% legalization, all drugs accross the board is the policy i would choose.



So, you should be able to buy cyanide at the local CVS?  Ricin?


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: Enlil]
    #28177453 - 02/08/23 10:33 AM (11 months, 12 days ago)

:cookiemonster:


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: Rhizomorph] * 2
    #28203313 - 02/24/23 10:14 PM (10 months, 26 days ago)

ideally?

first and foremost, i would eliminate poverty and homelessness. that helps a lot with the baggage that comes with addiction to the harder stuff.

then i would like to see all drugs legalized, age-restricted, and regulated for purity, with strong public education campaigns on how to safely consume, and safe consumption sites for adults.

then i would want to see an end to the drug war along with a release of all drug offenders who are not a danger to the public or themselves.

then i would want us to make amends to all the countries we have destroyed in the name of the drug war.


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #28203321 - 02/24/23 10:33 PM (10 months, 26 days ago)

I like the recent law changes where I live.
It is not illegal to possess drugs under a certain weight.
THC is legal, ketamine is legal for treatment assistance,C-PTSD, PTSD & depression.
I believe shrooms will be next.

The rest... I am undecided but I do like that we are steering away from prosecuting people for drugs.


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: millzy] * 2
    #28203322 - 02/24/23 10:34 PM (10 months, 26 days ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
ideally?

first and foremost, i would eliminate poverty and homelessness. that helps a lot with the baggage that comes with addiction to the harder stuff.

then i would like to see all drugs legalized, age-restricted, and regulated for purity, with strong public education campaigns on how to safely consume, and safe consumption sites for adults.

then i would want to see an end to the drug war along with a release of all drug offenders who are not a danger to the public or themselves.

then i would want us to make amends to all the countries we have destroyed in the name of the drug war.



Great answer....
100% agree


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: millzy] * 1
    #28206639 - 02/27/23 11:31 AM (10 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
ideally?

first and foremost, i would eliminate poverty and homelessness. that helps a lot with the baggage that comes with addiction to the harder stuff.

then i would like to see all drugs legalized, age-restricted, and regulated for purity, with strong public education campaigns on how to safely consume, and safe consumption sites for adults.

then i would want to see an end to the drug war along with a release of all drug offenders who are not a danger to the public or themselves.

then i would want us to make amends to all the countries we have destroyed in the name of the drug war.



:whatshesaid::snoopyes::cookiemonster::awesomenod::elmo::seriousthumbsup:

psychoeducation, psychoeducation and more pharmaco-psychoeducation!


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Edited by Rhizomorph (02/27/23 11:32 AM)


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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #28356497 - 06/12/23 03:57 AM (7 months, 12 days ago)

Prehistoric rock art near Villar del Humo in Spain suggests that Psilocybe hispanica was used in religious rituals up to a minimum of 6,000 years ago.

The first amendment to the constitution of the United States is as follows. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise or practice of religion thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The fact that it was found in Spain and not the US is entirely irrelevant because regardless of where it was found, it is nevertheless documented to have religious and spiritual uses. It is entirely irrefutable that the illegality of psilocybin (and psilocin) containing mushrooms as well as other entheogen containing plants and fungi is as unconstitutional as it is illegal in and of itself. Especially with mescaline and psilocybin (as well as Psilocin) as they have a minimum of 5000-6000 years of documented religious and spiritual use. (Afterthought: I didn't mention other entheogens because I don't have enough information on their use in religious ceremonies or spiritual use, if I find this information I will be sure to add it) Banning these substances, besides being a grand display of Misinformation spreading stupidity and a vast USSR, east block, NKVD, Joseph Stalin style government overreach of control into its citizens lives, is an impingement on the free and unhindered religious or spiritual practice(s) of any given individual should they so choose to use these substances for spiritual/religious purposes. This definitionally is a violation of first amendment rights of all American citizens. It's that simple.

Side note: If anybody should decide that they want to make the argument of "Well that can just be an excuse to make hard drugs legal", I have thought about this as well and my response after thinking on this for some time is respectfully, no, that's not how that works. Drugs for example heroin or fentanyl or meth or anything else of that nature has absolutely 0 documented religious or spiritual use, therefore drugs will remain illegal because they will not fall into violation of the first amendment. (Rightfully so imo, however, I very firmly believe that it is immoral, unproductive, sadistic, and vile to criminalize and incarcerate people just because they decide, THEY DECIDE, to put something in their body that can cause damage to or kill that individual. Instead we should offer them real help such as psychedelic assisted addiction therapy but they're the ones that have to make that decision for themselves. You can lead the horse to the water, but you can't make it drink.  If they do something idiotic, charge them for the idiotic thing they did, not for whatever they may have happened to have been under the influence of at the time. Rizomorph said this earlier (if I misspelled your name I apologize). I think use of said drugs should be strongly discouraged and looked down upon, but I do not think that it should be a criminal offense to exercise our God given right of FREE WILL whether I, or anyone else for that matter, thinks what that individual is doing is wrong or not, with the sole exception of if that individual is doing something dangerous or lethal to those in the presence of or in any other form of contact with that individual).

That all being said, legalize entheogenic plants and fungus. Full education on proper caution, care, use, and most importantly the dangers of misuse and underage (under 21) use as well as distribution of scientific facts and data instead of garbage government propaganda should be the utmost priority. (The government) Mind your own business and realize that just because you don't like something or understand something does not give you a right to take that away from the people who do like, understand (as much as an individual can), and know how to use these things and who treat them with care and respect. Make cultivation, possession, use in a private space, and sale with licensing legal, and let those of us who want to use these substances for both our physical and spiritual benefit, growth, and development use them and go about our business. Stop being completely ignorant of the mental and physical health benefits of these things and stop over-exaggerating and in some instances straight up inventing and fabricating misinformation and lies on how "dangerous" these things are, for example the time the government lied about LSD damaging chromosomes which is a blatant and highly dishonest scare tactic with absolutely no scientific evidence even remotely suggesting that this is even 0.0001% true. (Which by the way was proven to be completely false with moderate and even heroic doses used in moderation. They are hardly dangerous at all if they're even dangerous in the first place, which from all evidence I've seen, they pose absolutely no danger when used with the proper caution, care, and respect, as well as having a next to nothing addiction risk despite the government's lies on this matter that dishonestly as well as illegally enables the government to list these compounds as schedule 1 substances). Instead of incarceration of those who make, use, or are fascinated by these substances, give them jobs related to say marijuana or Psilocybin mushroom or even psychoactive cacti cultivation, sale, research, psychedelic therapy, ETC. and allow them to have a future and be productive, hard working, and make them beneficial to both society and the economy instead of stripping them of every hope, dream, and chance of a future they have and reducing them to nothing but dust in the wind.

Suicide rates would drop, alcoholism would dwindle, smokers would quit, those with severe depression would feel that life is worth living again, love and unity would replace hatred and selfishness, those dealing with post traumatic stress disorder would receive long awaited treatment that would actually be effective, the human brain (and mind by extension) would be far better understood, the causes of mental disorders would be discovered, so many solutions to so many problems would be discovered and used, if only those in positions of power weren't so power hungry and scared of those under their control thinking freely for themselves and for once in their carrier (and probably lives for that matter) lift the vail of ignorance from their power-blinded eyes and see the reality of the world we live in, all the positive changes we need to fix this broken world, and bring about all these said positive changes that these substances would catalyze, so long as they are made available to the masses and not corporatized and not snatched up by the greedy big pharma companies who are less worried about us and more worried about themselves. My evidence for my thinking on this comes from the various studies conducted using psychedelics during the 1950s, 1960s, as well as modern research today.

One more thing, LEAVE THE GREEDY, SELFISH, OVERPRICING PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES OUT OF IT!!!!!!!!!! They're not worried about anything I just said, all they're worried about is how they can make the most money off of those who are deeply suffering. God provided us with these plants and fungi, and it belongs to anyone and everyone who chooses to use them. (Personally I believe in God but anyone reading this has a right to believe however they wish to believe)

Note: psychedelic/entheogen=substance
          Drug(s)=unhealthy/damaging/lethal

I hope all this isn't nonsense lol it's just been on my mind for a very long time.

P.S.-I welcome both compliments and criticism. If I want to fight the government on this, I need every point of view I can get so I can cover as many angles as I can.



--------------------
"They say money can't buy you happiness, but id rather cry in a dodge challenger than on the sidewalk"
Zombie
"When working with psychedelic substances, you must always start with yourself"
Dr. Albert Hofmann (1906-2008, Rest in peace)
Any questions/posts asked/posted by myself are purely, 100%  hypothetical and/or make-believe and do not state fact or any current events in any form.


Edited by RP3 (06/13/23 06:47 AM)


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