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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: budmanman] * 1
    #26831611 - 07/18/20 10:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I know this thread is old but there's been some recent activity so here's my :twocents::twocents:

Legalize all drugs. Have an "allow but discourage" stance towards substances with more harm & abuse potential. Put drug policy in the hands of health-departments rather than a judicial departments. Provide education & mental health support alongside the sale of drugs. This has been shown to be effective by plenty of studies in the past. (Namely studies on alcohol prohibition, drug prohibition in portugal, but also other studies)

The reason why decriminalization alone does not work is that it maintains organized crime and we become complicit in the violence caused by the underground market. The only solution is a properly regulated market.

The fact is that as much as we become complicit in the safe use of people using drugs under legalization (a legitimate concern), by criminalizing buyers OR suppliers, we become complicit in the unsafe use, and the violence behind drug use that is magnified by criminalization.

Problematic drug use is a fact of modern society as it exists right now. The choice is in whether we provide those who use drugs with informed consent and support, and whether or not we want criminal organizations to benefit off of, and murder on behalf of, the system we have in place.


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:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

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Edited by Rhizomorph (07/18/20 10:52 PM)


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: B Traven] * 1
    #27757170 - 04/30/22 01:18 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

So essentially decriminalize drugs you can grow in personal amounts, medicalize opium, cocaine & meth (you can grow opium and coca leaves though :confused:) for, what I presume you're trying to get at is for people with pre-existing substance use disorders? (this being the higher degree of scrutiny??).

LSD and mushrooms medicalized without consideration of non-therapeutic/unregulated uses?? (e.g., entheogenic, Indigenous ceremonies, recreation, self-exploration, productivity... the list goes on)

Alcohol is more restricted but still less so than cocaine or meth despite it being more harmful overall??

I don't know dude... this feels like it sort of appeals to a nature bias & isn't consistent with the relatives harms, benefits, cultural uses, best practices and research surrounding drugs and drug policy. The false dichotomy between "hard drugs" and "soft drugs" also seems apparent when the relative proportion of variance in drug harms due to drugs like meth or cocaine is more attributable to social causes (stigma leading to lack of access to safe supply, health services & harm reduction) than the harms of the drugs themselves. The actual impact of the drugs themselves on the body are a tiny piece of the pie when it comes to harms.

It also doesn't solve the problem of the two-tiered drug markets (criminal & regulated markets existing simultaneously) as your proposed system incentivizes ilicit access routes which would be lower-barrier in said system. The two tiered system likewise maintains transnational chains of violence and flows of money into things like terrorism, kidnappings, torture, and the list goes on.

I say legalize them all and make the barriers to accessing drugs with greater abuse liability cultural not judicial; make people aware of the harms and utilize educational, and age-based pre-conditions to access. Maybe make access mail-order only with a reasonable waiting period. This way people will be less likely to access drugs through everyday micro-interactions but if they are really that motivated to access them they can go out of their way to do so in a safe way with access to health services and the whatnot.

Lastly, and arguably most importantly: How does cognitive liberty fit into your ideal world??


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:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (04/30/22 01:19 AM)


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: SharaVabdas]
    #27757175 - 04/30/22 01:27 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SharaVabdas said:
Legalization tends to lead to monied interests controlling the markets and disempowers smaller actors trying to build their livelihood in the industry. It involves a lot more certification and licensing costs that are prohibitively expensive.



Is this a problem with legalization or a problem with neoliberalism?? (essentially free-market capitalism if you're unfamiliar with the term)

Nobody is out here saying that we should prohibit insulin just because it is heavily monetized; the health & social gains of insulin being available are enormous, and likewise with legalizing drugs.

I agree this is a problem, but A) I believe this is more of an economic policy issue and B) Even if we can't address the monetary issue, I'd rather have monetization than the violence and deaths that currently occur under prohibition.


Edited by Rhizomorph (05/12/22 03:22 AM)


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: B Traven] * 1
    #27758113 - 04/30/22 09:05 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

B Traven said:
It's imaginationland, bro.

My avatar is an Anarchist.

In the real world, I'm just along for the ride in this shitshow.



I'm not flaming ya or anything. Just asking questions respectfully :tongue2:

In my ideal imaginationland drug policy doesn't exist because there's no need to regulate drugs in an ideal world and we can take drugs whenever we want without risk of harm. In imaginationland the question of regulating drugs would be as alien to us as the question of regulating sand
:rail2:


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:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (04/30/22 09:06 PM)


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: SharaVabdas] * 2
    #27760776 - 05/02/22 11:19 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SharaVabdas said:
Good point. My ideal drug policy is to entirely dismantle the state, now that you mention it.



I feel that...


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:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: B Traven] * 2
    #27760777 - 05/02/22 11:21 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

B Traven said:
Quote:

Rhizomorph said:

In my ideal imaginationland drug policy doesn't exist because there's no need to regulate drugs in an ideal world and we can take drugs whenever we want without risk of harm. In imaginationland the question of regulating drugs would be as alien to us as the question of regulating sand
:rail2:




Cheers to that!

I've seen some examples of that, even to the point of influencing laws and enforcement- things like traditional fermented drinks, bhang, and even psilocybes in some countries.

I'm honestly more worried about the environmental impact of substances than their effect on peoples' mental states. I think people should be free to do whatever they want with their minds and bodies, but I also have a lot of issues with what constitutes freedom and informed consent. I don't think that, for example, letting 13 year olds take up smoking, without information or understanding about its long-term effects, represents meaningful freedom.

But yeah, seriously, the only drug policies I'm making are personal ones, about what to take/buy/sell/grow. And the ones I fantasize most about from a legal/societal standpoint mostly deal with quality control and avoiding douchebaggery. Like, why the fuck do people have to deal with fentanyl or levamisole in their cocaine? That's just completely unnecessary. Like, I'll just take the baseline level of danger and long-term heart damage, please.



Agreeed! Age restrictions actually have an evidence base for being effective in reducing harm unlike adult prohibition.

Safe supply saves lives!


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:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: thirtygoats] * 1
    #27895926 - 08/09/22 02:05 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

I don't believe 'bath salts' are a valid pharmacological category. The term has traditionally been used by mass media to fuel a moral panic surrounding the use of Novel Psychoactive Substances (NPS); predominantly referring to cathinones.

I also don't believe there is a pharmacological or social basis for criminalizing cathinones over any other class of stimulant - methylone or mephedrone isn't much riskier to the individual nor society compared to traditional amphetamines such as methamphetamine. In fact, I would argue they are lower-risk in many instances

I won't lie, it sounds like you just don't like drugs which have become infamous in the media due to being poorly understood & a few case reports being sensationalized... Methamphetamine, cocaine, etc. etc. was the same at some point in time.

Legalize all drugs! (I.e., legalize the existence of drug users) :heart:

Quote:

thirtygoats said:
and if somebody does something stupid,



If somebody does something stupid why can't we just charge them for doing that stupid thing and not for the substance use? We do this with alcohol...

I encourage everyone in this thread to be weary of how War on Drugs-style thinking may be permeating our efforts to liberate people who use drugs (e.g., 'X drug is better than X drug' or 'we should mandate that people stop using drugs in X circumstances/for X drugs'). Too often we end up reproducing the very structures we are trying to resist in our resistance strategies & ideologies :super:


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:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (08/09/22 02:10 PM)


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: B Traven] * 2
    #27914255 - 08/22/22 08:00 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

B Traven said:
But then they wouldn't have as many psychological issues to exploit and profit from, and people might not put up with as much abuse at work if they lost their fear of poverty.



So...in short, capitalism is to blame?

(slightly joking but only partially; the issue evidently intersects with other economic & social policies & social inequality as a whole)

I agree with everything you said. If 'good' drugs caused an opioid epidemic and the 'bad' drugs can cure PTSD, we have to not only start having - but also normalize - discourse that interrogates drug war logic.

repeating to people that bath salts are just cathinones twisted into a terrible image of face eating by the media, which often sides with the war on drugs, gets tiresome; not everyone is intent on learning when they often have a personal attachment to drug war logic that helps cope when confronted by the complex & uncertain terrain of psychoactives' risks and benefits (not referring to anyone on here, but the general public, for clarification!). "hard drugs" and "soft drugs" is an appealing dichotomy for those who have little background in psychopharmacology or drug policy. Yet this heuristic contradicts every empirically sound study on drug harms (e.g., Nutt et al.) when considering both harms to individual & society.

Again, it's drug war logic and I've seen this theme underpinning most of the drug policies suggested in this thread; we are ironically assuming drug war logic in our very efforts to resist the drug war when we categorize drugs this way. each drug requires an extensive review of its psychopharmacology & impact on society to determine an individual drug policy for each drug.

This is just the ongoing struggle though. Good on ya for being informed :hug:


--------------------

:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (08/22/22 08:02 PM)


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: thetruthsohelp]
    #28167353 - 02/01/23 10:37 AM (11 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

thetruthsohelp said:
DO I own my own body and mind or does the state? Thats really what it boils down too. 100% legalization, all drugs accross the board is the policy i would choose.



I think this is too simple... I argue that we need to look at it as a spectrum, not a dichotomy; I.e., autonomy as a continuum. Some people have less & some have more; there is no absolute freedom or constraint (this is essentially social conflict theory).

Nobody has full autonomy; we give that one up to enjoy collective freedoms such as healthcare, freedom from risk of bodily harm &/or death (we give up the freedom to not wear a seatbelt). The freedom to have affordable healthcare (healthcare costs cannot sustain people being stupid at mass-scale). On a deeper level, we give up some degree of autonomy during micro-interactions with other individuals & cultures on a day-to-day basis as well.

We exist in a constant push and pull of autonomy and structural limitations; we reproduce social norms or break them; but nobody is free of some constraint and thus, social control is an inherent part of life.

So the institutions need rules governing individual autonomy only to the extent necessary. The political debate often regards what is actually necessary; where do we break the rules (laws or social norms) and when do we reinforce them (we can all agree rape is bad, for example).

-----------------

I agree with legalization, but there needs to be systems in place to avoid the burden on the medical system - which is shared & utilized collectively, as well as paid for by tax dollars. There are effective ways to do this but we must recognize that there likely requires some degree of structural constraint on individuals' autonomy. Screening procedures, psychoeducation, waiting periods, etc. are a must if we don't want to see the opioid crisis just skyrocket (more rapidly than it already is, that is).

People should be allowed to access a pharmaceutical supply of drugs, especially if they are treating a medical condition (substance use disorders) which can be deadly due to the contaminated drug supply, and deadly withdrawals (e.g., benzos). But, we can't just have your local gas station selling heroin to any passerby who feels the impulse to try while just going about their Saturday afternoon.

Classical psychedelics are a different story, but we need laws consistent with the psychopharmacology of each chem; not blanket policies that are rooted in racist drug war logics. The same goes for unrealistic ideals surrounding legalization & purist notions of liberty (that could probably never exist outside an extremely chaotic/lawless society anyways)


--------------------

:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (02/01/23 10:38 AM)


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: Enlil]
    #28177453 - 02/08/23 10:33 AM (11 months, 13 days ago)

:cookiemonster:


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:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: millzy] * 1
    #28206639 - 02/27/23 11:31 AM (10 months, 25 days ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
ideally?

first and foremost, i would eliminate poverty and homelessness. that helps a lot with the baggage that comes with addiction to the harder stuff.

then i would like to see all drugs legalized, age-restricted, and regulated for purity, with strong public education campaigns on how to safely consume, and safe consumption sites for adults.

then i would want to see an end to the drug war along with a release of all drug offenders who are not a danger to the public or themselves.

then i would want us to make amends to all the countries we have destroyed in the name of the drug war.



:whatshesaid::snoopyes::cookiemonster::awesomenod::elmo::seriousthumbsup:

psychoeducation, psychoeducation and more pharmaco-psychoeducation!


--------------------

:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (02/27/23 11:32 AM)


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