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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: thetruthsohelp] * 3
    #28177329 - 02/08/23 09:06 AM (11 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

thetruthsohelp said:
DO I own my own body and mind or does the state? Thats really what it boils down too. 100% legalization, all drugs accross the board is the policy i would choose.



So, you should be able to buy cyanide at the local CVS?  Ricin?


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: SharaVabdas] * 2
    #27760776 - 05/02/22 11:19 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SharaVabdas said:
Good point. My ideal drug policy is to entirely dismantle the state, now that you mention it.



I feel that...


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: B Traven] * 2
    #27760777 - 05/02/22 11:21 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

B Traven said:
Quote:

Rhizomorph said:

In my ideal imaginationland drug policy doesn't exist because there's no need to regulate drugs in an ideal world and we can take drugs whenever we want without risk of harm. In imaginationland the question of regulating drugs would be as alien to us as the question of regulating sand
:rail2:




Cheers to that!

I've seen some examples of that, even to the point of influencing laws and enforcement- things like traditional fermented drinks, bhang, and even psilocybes in some countries.

I'm honestly more worried about the environmental impact of substances than their effect on peoples' mental states. I think people should be free to do whatever they want with their minds and bodies, but I also have a lot of issues with what constitutes freedom and informed consent. I don't think that, for example, letting 13 year olds take up smoking, without information or understanding about its long-term effects, represents meaningful freedom.

But yeah, seriously, the only drug policies I'm making are personal ones, about what to take/buy/sell/grow. And the ones I fantasize most about from a legal/societal standpoint mostly deal with quality control and avoiding douchebaggery. Like, why the fuck do people have to deal with fentanyl or levamisole in their cocaine? That's just completely unnecessary. Like, I'll just take the baseline level of danger and long-term heart damage, please.



Agreeed! Age restrictions actually have an evidence base for being effective in reducing harm unlike adult prohibition.

Safe supply saves lives!


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:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

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Offlinethirtygoats
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 2
    #27892104 - 08/06/22 05:24 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

I'd make them all legal except for crap like bath salts, flakka and spice, and if somebody does something stupid, they'd have to do jailtime or probation with drug tests but they'd only be drug tested for the drug(s) that contributed to their stupidity. Each time they failed a drug test, they'd have to serve double the amount of jail time they did last time.


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: B Traven] * 2
    #27914255 - 08/22/22 08:00 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

B Traven said:
But then they wouldn't have as many psychological issues to exploit and profit from, and people might not put up with as much abuse at work if they lost their fear of poverty.



So...in short, capitalism is to blame?

(slightly joking but only partially; the issue evidently intersects with other economic & social policies & social inequality as a whole)

I agree with everything you said. If 'good' drugs caused an opioid epidemic and the 'bad' drugs can cure PTSD, we have to not only start having - but also normalize - discourse that interrogates drug war logic.

repeating to people that bath salts are just cathinones twisted into a terrible image of face eating by the media, which often sides with the war on drugs, gets tiresome; not everyone is intent on learning when they often have a personal attachment to drug war logic that helps cope when confronted by the complex & uncertain terrain of psychoactives' risks and benefits (not referring to anyone on here, but the general public, for clarification!). "hard drugs" and "soft drugs" is an appealing dichotomy for those who have little background in psychopharmacology or drug policy. Yet this heuristic contradicts every empirically sound study on drug harms (e.g., Nutt et al.) when considering both harms to individual & society.

Again, it's drug war logic and I've seen this theme underpinning most of the drug policies suggested in this thread; we are ironically assuming drug war logic in our very efforts to resist the drug war when we categorize drugs this way. each drug requires an extensive review of its psychopharmacology & impact on society to determine an individual drug policy for each drug.

This is just the ongoing struggle though. Good on ya for being informed :hug:


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:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

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Edited by Rhizomorph (08/22/22 08:02 PM)


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: Rhizomorph] * 2
    #28203313 - 02/24/23 10:14 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

ideally?

first and foremost, i would eliminate poverty and homelessness. that helps a lot with the baggage that comes with addiction to the harder stuff.

then i would like to see all drugs legalized, age-restricted, and regulated for purity, with strong public education campaigns on how to safely consume, and safe consumption sites for adults.

then i would want to see an end to the drug war along with a release of all drug offenders who are not a danger to the public or themselves.

then i would want us to make amends to all the countries we have destroyed in the name of the drug war.


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Invisibleloladoreen
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: millzy] * 2
    #28203322 - 02/24/23 10:34 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
ideally?

first and foremost, i would eliminate poverty and homelessness. that helps a lot with the baggage that comes with addiction to the harder stuff.

then i would like to see all drugs legalized, age-restricted, and regulated for purity, with strong public education campaigns on how to safely consume, and safe consumption sites for adults.

then i would want to see an end to the drug war along with a release of all drug offenders who are not a danger to the public or themselves.

then i would want us to make amends to all the countries we have destroyed in the name of the drug war.



Great answer....
100% agree


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OfflineCreep
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26081882 - 06/30/19 02:23 AM (4 years, 6 months ago)

I would maintain heavy restrictions on opioids, meth and other highly addictive drugs. I would decriminalise or legalise marijuana, lsd and mushrooms et al,  but not before a 5 year period of teaching in schools and public education of the risks of these things on developing brains and psyches. Driving under the influence would be automatic licence ban. In the case of marijuana and driving I would set the limit high so people who had been high 24 hours prior to being tested weren't unjustly booked.


Edited by Creep (06/30/19 03:44 AM)


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26092027 - 07/05/19 06:23 PM (4 years, 6 months ago)

This is just an idea, maybe not even a very good one, but I wanted to throw this out there anyway:

Possession is legal, but you should have to get a licence to use (to buy) certain drugs. This would require classes, maybe a lot of classes, that teach you about the experience and the dangers involved. You'd have to follow rules, use in a safe way, etc. otherwise your licence could be suspended.

Different drugs would have different restrictions depending on their relative danger. MDPV for example would still be completely 100% banned.

For opiates, there would be the most restrictions. The government would be the only supplier. You'd have to abide by a shitton of rules (like not breaking the law, holding down a job, etc.) in order to be able to buy them. You'd have to buy them and use them in a place surrounded by info on how to quit, with as much support for people who want to quit as humanly possible. If you broke a rule (such as by breaking the law) the dose you'd be allowed to buy would be cut in half. Breaking another would cut it in half again, and so on. If, on the other hand, you obeyed all the rules, broke no laws, maintained a good job, etc. then your dose could be increased back to its original amount over time with good behavior.

Psychedelics would require a shitton of classes to educate people on how to use them right. They might even require you to use them in controlled environments at first, like at hospital type places run by doctors, or psychologists, that kind of thing. Over time, perhaps you could apply for a licence to use them at your own home; if you jumped through enough hoops, took enough classes, etc. MDMA and MDMA like drugs would probably work the same. Same for dissociatives probably.

For simple stimulants like adderall, ritalin, you should have to take some classes, and the amount you'd be allowed would be closely restricted, monitored, and kept to a medically useful amount. Other stimulants (eg: meth) might not be available for sale. Probably the same for benzos, but with more restrictions, and more help to quit, more classes, etc.

Deliriants and other genuinely bad drugs would not be available for sale.

Still, through all of this possession would be legal, but your drugs might be confiscated if you don't have a licence.


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: budmanman] * 1
    #26831611 - 07/18/20 10:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I know this thread is old but there's been some recent activity so here's my :twocents::twocents:

Legalize all drugs. Have an "allow but discourage" stance towards substances with more harm & abuse potential. Put drug policy in the hands of health-departments rather than a judicial departments. Provide education & mental health support alongside the sale of drugs. This has been shown to be effective by plenty of studies in the past. (Namely studies on alcohol prohibition, drug prohibition in portugal, but also other studies)

The reason why decriminalization alone does not work is that it maintains organized crime and we become complicit in the violence caused by the underground market. The only solution is a properly regulated market.

The fact is that as much as we become complicit in the safe use of people using drugs under legalization (a legitimate concern), by criminalizing buyers OR suppliers, we become complicit in the unsafe use, and the violence behind drug use that is magnified by criminalization.

Problematic drug use is a fact of modern society as it exists right now. The choice is in whether we provide those who use drugs with informed consent and support, and whether or not we want criminal organizations to benefit off of, and murder on behalf of, the system we have in place.


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Edited by Rhizomorph (07/18/20 10:52 PM)


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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #27756273 - 04/29/22 08:34 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

I've lost all faith in the system to do anything that leads to a positive outcome.

Prohibition is a disaster, and if the weed scene is any indication, legalization will just be a different sort of disaster.

In the real world, I'm on the sidelines keeping my head down, and gently encouraging people to get off of cocaine/opiates/nicotine, and to think critically about how much they drink and smoke weed.

In my fantasy world, EVERYthing is restricted/regulated.

There is one sole caveat: if you can grow it, and use it for personal consumption only, then you get a pass.

Everything else is regulated to an extreme degree.

Weed and mushrooms are fine to produce and sell as a private individual, but you can't actually set up a large company or hire employees. Gotta keep it small-scale. Local committees of growers would provide oversight, and mete out fines for people who weren't in it for the love of the craft and/or tried to pass off shittily cured weed or nasty shrooms. On the consumer side, joker smokers who haggled and bullshitted people would be publicly shamed and put on "do not sell" lists.

Opium, cocaine, and meth would be strictly regulated. The usual players would be paid over the odds to produce directly for the government, and in a sustainable fashion. Every adult citizen in good standing would be permitted to buy a few pure grams of each per year, after suitable lectures/warnings/checkups. Pharmaceutical uses for cocaine, opiates, and stimulants would continue, but under a much higher degree of scrutiny and regulation. However, old-school trucker's aspirin would be legalized again (underground meth production having been eliminated).

LSD and MDMA would just be pharmaceutical drugs, prescribed by licensed professionals.

Tobacco would only be legal under the "grow whatever you want for personal use" clause. Commercial tobacco production would be outlawed.

Alcohol would be similar to how it is now, but there would be some sort of education program that you'd have to go through in order to legally buy booze. The alcohol industry would be more restricted in its advertising, and would have to hold itself to high standards of sustainability. Also, I'd lower the drinking age and raise the driving age, and make any sort of drug-assisted rape a much more serious crime.

Refined sugar would also be treated like a drug- no longer subsidized, and with serious restrictions on its use in a commercial setting.

Edit:
Legalize khat completely, and make salvia freely available while waiting in line at the DMV.


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Edited by B Traven (04/29/22 08:44 AM)


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InvisibleSharaVabdas
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? *DELETED* [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #27756276 - 04/29/22 08:38 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by SharaVabdas

Reason for deletion: Shroomery is full of bigots and I'm leaving.


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: B Traven] * 1
    #27757170 - 04/30/22 01:18 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

So essentially decriminalize drugs you can grow in personal amounts, medicalize opium, cocaine & meth (you can grow opium and coca leaves though :confused:) for, what I presume you're trying to get at is for people with pre-existing substance use disorders? (this being the higher degree of scrutiny??).

LSD and mushrooms medicalized without consideration of non-therapeutic/unregulated uses?? (e.g., entheogenic, Indigenous ceremonies, recreation, self-exploration, productivity... the list goes on)

Alcohol is more restricted but still less so than cocaine or meth despite it being more harmful overall??

I don't know dude... this feels like it sort of appeals to a nature bias & isn't consistent with the relatives harms, benefits, cultural uses, best practices and research surrounding drugs and drug policy. The false dichotomy between "hard drugs" and "soft drugs" also seems apparent when the relative proportion of variance in drug harms due to drugs like meth or cocaine is more attributable to social causes (stigma leading to lack of access to safe supply, health services & harm reduction) than the harms of the drugs themselves. The actual impact of the drugs themselves on the body are a tiny piece of the pie when it comes to harms.

It also doesn't solve the problem of the two-tiered drug markets (criminal & regulated markets existing simultaneously) as your proposed system incentivizes ilicit access routes which would be lower-barrier in said system. The two tiered system likewise maintains transnational chains of violence and flows of money into things like terrorism, kidnappings, torture, and the list goes on.

I say legalize them all and make the barriers to accessing drugs with greater abuse liability cultural not judicial; make people aware of the harms and utilize educational, and age-based pre-conditions to access. Maybe make access mail-order only with a reasonable waiting period. This way people will be less likely to access drugs through everyday micro-interactions but if they are really that motivated to access them they can go out of their way to do so in a safe way with access to health services and the whatnot.

Lastly, and arguably most importantly: How does cognitive liberty fit into your ideal world??


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Edited by Rhizomorph (04/30/22 01:19 AM)


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: B Traven] * 1
    #27758113 - 04/30/22 09:05 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

B Traven said:
It's imaginationland, bro.

My avatar is an Anarchist.

In the real world, I'm just along for the ride in this shitshow.



I'm not flaming ya or anything. Just asking questions respectfully :tongue2:

In my ideal imaginationland drug policy doesn't exist because there's no need to regulate drugs in an ideal world and we can take drugs whenever we want without risk of harm. In imaginationland the question of regulating drugs would be as alien to us as the question of regulating sand
:rail2:


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Edited by Rhizomorph (04/30/22 09:06 PM)


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Offlinehigh_desert
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #27798512 - 05/30/22 01:28 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Imagine a world or country where every drug is legal. Would that be your ideal drug policy? Or would you rather there be specific restrictions on certain drugs?

For me, i would legalize all the safe, classic psychs and then have some kind of restrictive policy for the more dangerous drugs like coke, meth and heroin, to prevent accidental deaths.

What would your custom Drug Policy be like?


*fixed typos




I agree with this. I think mushrooms should be controlled like legal weed, LSD should be completely decriminalized but somehow not generally available to the public in, and heroin meth and coke should be decriminalized. Caging people for drug use alone is barbaric.

A real question I have is what do we do about alcohol.. After all my years working in an ER I think alcohol and heroin share the top spot for the worst drugs. Alcohol's effect on society is like a slow motion 50 car pileup and its severe effects on the individual is pretty much what it's like when people lose it to dementia. Heroin bleeds people dry like a vampire and kills them slow, makes them desperate and it's very sad. But over the course of a few hours alcohol can make a relatively normal person completely insane, dangerous irresponsible weapon and the hardcore long term physical effects of it are terrifying... It looks like a fever dream in hell. Of all the messed up drug events i saw in an ER, the alcohol related ones were far and away the worst, and I've frequently seen and fought with people in deep violent meth psychosis. In 6 years I never once saw any problematic patients on lsd or mushrooms, except one 14 year old with preexisting severe psychological issues.

Anyway, I always like to bring up alcohol in any discussion about psychs legality because the fact that alcohol is legal and encouraged in the US but psilocybin, mdma and lsd are not only illegal but schedule 1 is so profoundly wrong that it made me lose faith in society from a young age and I never really got it back.

I can go on and on about this sorry..


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OfflineB Traven
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: high_desert] * 1
    #27798933 - 05/30/22 11:18 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

high_desert said:
Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Imagine a world or country where every drug is legal. Would that be your ideal drug policy? Or would you rather there be specific restrictions on certain drugs?

For me, i would legalize all the safe, classic psychs and then have some kind of restrictive policy for the more dangerous drugs like coke, meth and heroin, to prevent accidental deaths.

What would your custom Drug Policy be like?


*fixed typos




I agree with this. I think mushrooms should be controlled like legal weed, LSD should be completely decriminalized but somehow not generally available to the public in, and heroin meth and coke should be decriminalized. Caging people for drug use alone is barbaric.

A real question I have is what do we do about alcohol.. After all my years working in an ER I think alcohol and heroin share the top spot for the worst drugs. Alcohol's effect on society is like a slow motion 50 car pileup and its severe effects on the individual is pretty much what it's like when people lose it to dementia. Heroin bleeds people dry like a vampire and kills them slow, makes them desperate and it's very sad. But over the course of a few hours alcohol can make a relatively normal person completely insane, dangerous irresponsible weapon and the hardcore long term physical effects of it are terrifying... It looks like a fever dream in hell. Of all the messed up drug events i saw in an ER, the alcohol related ones were far and away the worst, and I've frequently seen and fought with people in deep violent meth psychosis. In 6 years I never once saw any problematic patients on lsd or mushrooms, except one 14 year old with preexisting severe psychological issues.

Anyway, I always like to bring up alcohol in any discussion about psychs legality because the fact that alcohol is legal and encouraged in the US but psilocybin, mdma and lsd are not only illegal but schedule 1 is so profoundly wrong that it made me lose faith in society from a young age and I never really got it back.

I can go on and on about this sorry..




It's interesting how Prohibition gets trotted out as an "example" of how criminalizing drug use doesn't work.

It really seems like we've lost all historical context on how Prohibition came to be, and also what it actually meant.

All your experiences in the ER times 100. Dudes blowing their entire paychecks on booze, letting their kids starve, and beating on their wives. It still happens today, of course, but shit like that was rampant in the early 20th century. There was a legit full-blown social and public health crisis, and the sort of alcohol abuse that was rife in a lot of communities was completely incompatible with the advancement of women in society.

As for Prohibition itself, it was a lot more like "The entire US is a dry county" than it was a 1990's style war on drugs. People didn't go to prison for having a couple beers on them. Al Capone went down for tax evasion.

All in all, it was probably just a reaction to an insane situation, and probably did help temper some of the madness.

But what can you do, really? Alcohol is probably the easiest drug to produce, and it's now been introduced to every culture on earth. People will always find a way to make and consume it. I guess it's ultimately down to socialization and advertising.


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Edited by B Traven (05/30/22 11:19 AM)


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OfflineNakedNexus
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: B Traven] * 1
    #27813469 - 06/10/22 02:26 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Not trying to get all radical and shit here, but to be fair, American society is and always has been pretty into repression and hypocrisy.




Oh for sure, just look at our attitudes towards sex; obsessed with it but censor everything regarding it. We are bat shit insane in our paradoxical natures. I think most of our crises devolve down to mental health issues on a global scale.


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: thirtygoats] * 1
    #27895926 - 08/09/22 02:05 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

I don't believe 'bath salts' are a valid pharmacological category. The term has traditionally been used by mass media to fuel a moral panic surrounding the use of Novel Psychoactive Substances (NPS); predominantly referring to cathinones.

I also don't believe there is a pharmacological or social basis for criminalizing cathinones over any other class of stimulant - methylone or mephedrone isn't much riskier to the individual nor society compared to traditional amphetamines such as methamphetamine. In fact, I would argue they are lower-risk in many instances

I won't lie, it sounds like you just don't like drugs which have become infamous in the media due to being poorly understood & a few case reports being sensationalized... Methamphetamine, cocaine, etc. etc. was the same at some point in time.

Legalize all drugs! (I.e., legalize the existence of drug users) :heart:

Quote:

thirtygoats said:
and if somebody does something stupid,



If somebody does something stupid why can't we just charge them for doing that stupid thing and not for the substance use? We do this with alcohol...

I encourage everyone in this thread to be weary of how War on Drugs-style thinking may be permeating our efforts to liberate people who use drugs (e.g., 'X drug is better than X drug' or 'we should mandate that people stop using drugs in X circumstances/for X drugs'). Too often we end up reproducing the very structures we are trying to resist in our resistance strategies & ideologies :super:


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Edited by Rhizomorph (08/09/22 02:10 PM)


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Invisiblethetruthsohelp
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: Rhizomorph] * 1
    #28166149 - 01/31/23 03:42 PM (11 months, 20 days ago)

DO I own my own body and mind or does the state? Thats really what it boils down too. 100% legalization, all drugs accross the board is the policy i would choose.


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Invisibleloladoreen
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Re: Whats your ideal drug policy? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #28203321 - 02/24/23 10:33 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

I like the recent law changes where I live.
It is not illegal to possess drugs under a certain weight.
THC is legal, ketamine is legal for treatment assistance,C-PTSD, PTSD & depression.
I believe shrooms will be next.

The rest... I am undecided but I do like that we are steering away from prosecuting people for drugs.


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