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 Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,335
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 Re: The Problem with Free Will...?  [Re: remake]
#26076534 - 06/27/19 07:36 AM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
FranniePilgrim said:
But can you truly blame someone if they apparently had no choice?
or perhaps, the act of blaming is also not a choice?
With no free will. It only makes sense to not care either way.
And if I had no choice in saying what I'm saying now,
who am I?
The idea that there's no need for care or responsibility in the absence of free will is common and faulty. Whether there is free will or not we still must make choices and live with those choices.
Blame is an emotional reaction, not wanting to accept reality as it is. Fault is a more reasonable way of categorizing an act as a mistake. There is no need to blame anyone for anything, regardless of but especially in the absence of free will.
I don't believe in free will but also don't believe in fate. There's a randomness to life that prevents the future from being set in stone.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,213
Loc: South Africa 
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Rahz]
#26076555 - 06/27/19 07:51 AM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Whether there is free will or not we still must make choices and live with those choices.
What do you think of Sam Harris's idea that even our choices are predetermined?
“You can do what you decide to do — but you cannot decide what you will decide to do.”
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,335
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: remake]
#26076569 - 06/27/19 08:09 AM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
FranniePilgrim said:
What do you think of Sam Harris's idea that even our choices are predetermined?
“You can do what you decide to do — but you cannot decide what you will decide to do.”
I agree with the quote, but it's not a guarantee of predetermination. Quantum indeterminacy possibly affects brain function. In that case there are only tendencies and the future is not set in stone.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,213
Loc: South Africa
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Rahz]
#26076636 - 06/27/19 09:04 AM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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So, we cannot predict the future - but we have no free will...
Doesn't it seem like the future is set in stone though, only we don't know what it will be or have any conscious control over it?
Currently I'm just trying to relax, and not think too much about what to do next. The question for me now is, should I constantly be concerned about "what should I do next" or will it take care of itself?
Can I completely 'fly' in other words? With no concern for what to do next or any anxiety at all?
If you know what I mean. Like just zone out and nature will do the rest?
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 living_failure
unworthy
Registered: 06/13/19
Posts: 352
Loc: spain, madrid
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Rahz]
#26076655 - 06/27/19 09:16 AM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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I have a different approach.
You don't have FreeWill meaning you are a slave of the infinite chain of cause and effect, and as such you act according a determined causes that makes you act just in the only possible way.
Everything is determined because everything is in an universe that follows a set of rules.
You have free will because, even if predicting a person output according to some inputs is Theoretically possible (potentially possible), it will never happens, and, as for definition as possibility, if something will never happens it is impossible to it to happen.
So. theoretically, you don't have FreeWill and Everything is determined. Pragmatically you have free will and the universe is not determined.
So. theoretically christian god is perfect, and as the perfection it makes no error.
We are not free, for we do his will. But we are free, to do his will.
Pain and suffering, it's a consecuence of gods will. If your daughter is raped and eaten alive, is an act of gods love and you should love gods for his absolute love.
However, to caesar what it is to caesar to god what it is to god (i dont know english translation sorry). so, seeking retribution is gods will too.
At least that was the explanation they gave me in catholic school
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,335
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: remake]
#26076681 - 06/27/19 09:35 AM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
FranniePilgrim said:
So, we cannot predict the future - but we have no free will...
Doesn't it seem like the future is set in stone though, only we don't know what it will be or have any conscious control over it?
Currently I'm just trying to relax, and not think too much about what to do next. The question for me now is, should I constantly be concerned about "what should I do next" or will it take care of itself?
Can I completely 'fly' in other words? With no concern for what to do next or any anxiety at all?
If you know what I mean. Like just zone out and nature will do the rest?
I can perceive a path, along the lines of what you describe, but largely an illusion IMO... a useful one perhaps, like a voice through the mist calling us home, reminding us of what is important. Maybe some can live that life? Sometimes things just flow. Sometimes there is conflict. Life has to do with both I guess.
Reminds me of a Rumi quote "They say there’s no future for us. They’re right. Which is fine with us.”
But if you read a lot of Rumi you might not get the impression he was anxiety free.
Sometimes it does seem like the future is set in stone but it just a perception it seems. I know not. Perhaps I would be more inclined to fate if I lived before quantum mechanics? Or maybe the language I use would simply be different?
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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PatrickKn
Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 20,715
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Rahz]
#26076701 - 06/27/19 09:42 AM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quantum indeterminacy doesn't necessarily rely on the foundation that reactions at that level aren't predestined though, just that such effects are determined by probability factors that are difficult or impossible to observe at our level. They may still be predetermined by cause and effect with no outside force making choices over such actions.
In my mind, if an action or event at any level is not predetermined by events that came before it, then that implies that some unnatural force is applying external pressure to the action from the outside, that outside source itself subject to cause and effect within it's own paradigm.
Edited by PatrickKn (06/27/19 09:48 AM)
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,335
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: PatrickKn]
#26076722 - 06/27/19 09:49 AM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
PatrickKn said:
Quantum indeterminacy doesn't necessarily rely on the foundation that reactions at that level aren't predestined though, just that such effects are determined by probability factors that are difficult or impossible to observe at our level. They may still be predetermined by cause and effect with no outside force making choices over such actions.
Agreed, but such an effect in either case does seem to throw a wrench into such intricate physical systems.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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laughingdog
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,830
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Rahz]
#26077013 - 06/27/19 12:47 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Princeton Professor of Mathematics, John Conway, likes to lecture, on how quantum theory proves free will,
just like the story of "The Emperor's Clothes"
it seems to escape every one that,he is,
both overweight and crippled
and apparently
compulsively lectures on the subject.
thats 2 behaviors he can't control & no sane person would choose.
(compulsivity and allowing one's weight to get out of control).
and one fact (possibly an act of fate) (being crippled) no sane person would choose.
And lastly although far more intelligent than most or all of us,
seemingly as unaware, as his audience is of how his own life contradicts,
his ostensible cleverness.
What stands out most of course, as it is the most straight forward of the issues,
is being overweight, while lecturing others on 'free will', and on top of that being unaware of the contradiction. And if crippled, the weight issue can only add to the difficulty and stress on his joints.
But who knows you might enjoy his lectures more than my caustic opinion.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=John+Conway%2C+free+will
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head
Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,858
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The way I think about it is that we have what could be called a will, but it is not "free" in any meaningful sense. We are not automatons -- we can push things around some. But, most of the time, the subconscious is the determining iceberg with our waking consciousness at the very tip. I will say that some states of mind that are deeper, such as what a good monk or an advanced psychonaut can attain, make our little will seem pretty trivial, as a practical matter.
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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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laughingdog
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,830
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? *DELETED* [Re: laughingdog]
#26077062 - 06/27/19 01:27 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Post deleted by laughingdog
Reason for deletion: x
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,213
Loc: South Africa
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: laughingdog]
#26077075 - 06/27/19 01:34 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Here is my current take:
My current situation is I am looking for something to truly desire in order to motivate me to move from one location to the next.
After all, I believe we are living in eternity, because I'm crazy...
So, a lot of people, who are not aware or physically adept are sort of left in a place where life just happens to them. Or they believe someone else will 'do it' for them.
I see the world as being timeless, where everything manages to stay in the same place we left it. Unless someone/something comes and take it to another location. But somehow, it still manages to exist just at a different distance from, but ultimately, the exact same place and time, unless someone destroys it, but then it still exists in some form in the same space and time. This is getting out of hand, but hopefully it makes sense.
So all of our actions, generally speaking, are based on a causality thinking basis. If I do this, this and this will/should happen. When all that is happening is precisely what is happening in a neutral sense.
For example:
I am currently working in a specific environment. I follow a routine. This routine is then perceived as time passing. But in actuality it is a series of movements, that I continue to do because I follow a certain set of 'rules' that I believe in.
These rules can be broken at anytime when something 'unexpected' happens. Or - If I choose to relocate my physical body from the 'routine' on purpose in disregard of the 'rules' I'm supposed to 'follow'.
So everything in the present is the accumulation of past movements. Sometimes these movements are made because we believe in 'time' or 'rules'. Basically a giant system of conditioned thinking.
Technically I can move my mind in any direction or location that I am aware of, or perhaps, even a yearning for a place truly 'unknown'.
But the question then is - will my body follow if I keep my mind in that place long enough. And will nature/eternity grant me access to it?
These are the type of things I'm thinking now. 
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RJ Tubs 202
Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,175
Loc: USA 
Last seen: 5 days, 21 hours
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: remake]
#26078471 - 06/28/19 01:28 AM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
FranniePilgrim said:
Quote:
Whether there is free will or not we still must make choices and live with those choices.
What do you think of Sam Harris's idea that even our choices are predetermined?
So how should a person plan their day? Decide they have no choice what to do? I wonder how many parents teach their children they have no choice how to behave.
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,213
Loc: South Africa
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#26078493 - 06/28/19 01:57 AM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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They'll probably plan their day just as they would. But would not be able to plan it in any other way than they will... 
Children will be raised just as they will be too and in no other way than they could.
At least this is how I'm interpreting what Sam Harris is saying.
I tend to lean more on the idea of this being a form of unconditional love where choices don't matter in the first place and what we have said or have done doesn't matter in terms of who we could be or are.
But I do believe we have some control in the types of choices we make when we are fully aware of them and perhaps the specifics on surface level just don't matter really.
I don't know if Sam Harris is pointing us to the moon in this case, where we look at ourselves in a more objective light or not. To escape self-centered thinking or being.
He talks a lot about the 'self' being an illusion, and seems to believe strongly in that.
Edited by remake (06/28/19 02:06 AM)
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sudly
Quasar Praiser
Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,369
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The problem with free will is that people conflate it with the difficulties behind maintaining action from origin to end!
Some people do things just because they want to, some are driven for not knowing how to understand their sexuality and expressing hate as a result, some have a sick sense of justice or revenge, some seek financial benefit. Case files can provide a lot of insights into what goes on for people who have committed heinous crimes.
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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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laughingdog
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,830
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? *DELETED* [Re: sudly] 1
#26079172 - 06/28/19 12:22 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Post deleted by laughingdog
Reason for deletion: x
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laughingdog
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,830
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? *DELETED* [Re: laughingdog]
#26079236 - 06/28/19 01:03 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Post deleted by laughingdog
Reason for deletion: x
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laughingdog
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,830
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? *DELETED* [Re: laughingdog]
#26079260 - 06/28/19 01:15 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Post deleted by laughingdog
Reason for deletion: x
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sudly
Quasar Praiser
Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,369
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: laughingdog]
#26079710 - 06/28/19 06:29 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'll just say implementation intentions.
Quote:
Concept
People generally have positive intentions, but often fail to act on them. The question is how to ensure that the set goal intentions will reliably lead to the desired goal-directed behaviors, and subsequent attainment of those goals. Implementation intentions offer a practical solution for such a problem.
Achieving one's goals requires that certain goal-directed behaviors be instituted, but people are often unsuccessful in either initiating or maintaining these behaviors. The problems of initiating and maintaining goal-directed behavior can be addressed by using the implementation intention process. This if-then plan is a very specific approach as compared to goal intentions. A goal intention may be phrased in the following way: "I want to reach X!" Implementation intentions on the other hand are much more specific and seek to connect a future critical situation (an opportunity for goal attainment) with a specific goal-directed behavior, thereby leading to what could be called automatization in goal attainment. They are often phrased in the following way: "When situation X arises, I will perform response Y!" Where goal intentions are more general and abstract, implementation intentions are much more concrete and procedural.
Having formed a concrete plan involving a specific situation, this situation then becomes mentally represented and activated, leading to better perception, attention and memory concerning the critical situation. As a result, the chosen goal-directed behavior (the then-part of the plan) will be performed automatically and efficiently, without conscious effort. The automatization of the behavior in response to the future situation or cue, removes all hesitation and deliberation on the part of the decision maker when such a critical situation arises. This also has the effect of freeing cognitive resources for other mental processing tasks, and also for avoiding goal-threatening distractions or competing goals. It is also assumed that an implementation intention, once set, will continue operating non-consciously. This process is called strategic automaticity.
The strength of commitment related to both the plan set and the goal is very important for the implementation intention to have an effect on people's behavior. Without commitment, an implementation intention will hardly have any effect on goal-directed behavior.
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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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soberami
Dreamer
Registered: 05/03/19
Posts: 33
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: BrendanFlock] 1
#26080420 - 06/29/19 07:11 AM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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We are cleansed by the word of God.
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