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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,514
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: The second amendment is not compatible with the Democratic party. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26648002 - 05/04/20 10:27 AM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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Why? You've already admitted that the right not to speak is included in the right to free speech. The place you seem to be hung up on is that you don't seem to understand that by not letting you host your speech on their servers, youtube is exercising its right not to speak.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The second amendment is not compatible with the Democratic party. [Re: Enlil]
#26648022 - 05/04/20 10:35 AM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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Exactly. Do you have any proof that many scholars agree with you, or would you rather discuss why you won't back yourself up?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,514
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: The second amendment is not compatible with the Democratic party. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26648042 - 05/04/20 10:45 AM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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That's not even an issue that scholars would address. That's a technical issue. That's something any programmer could explain to you.
Let's use this site as an example:
1. You make a post. That's YOUR speech. That's you exercising your right to free speech. 2. That post is stored on Shroomery hard drives. That's not speech. 3. If anyone wants to read your post, the Shroomery copies that post off of the hard drive and sends it to that person. That's Shroomery's speech as well as yours. You wrote it. Shroomery republished it
Every time your post is sent to someone, Shroomery actively has to republish it. That is speech. You may disagree with this point, so I'm going to break this point down a bit: You may remember Tony Alamo. He was some nutjob whose flyers would end up on cars all over the country. He was in prison at the time, though. There were countless minions everywhere copying and distributing those flyers. The people doing that were using their first amendment right to free speech to distribute content written by Tony Alamo.
That's no different from what this site does with your posts. It distributes those posts as an expression of its right to free speech.
Okay, so if you're with me so far, the rest is pretty easy.
Since the distribution of your post is an expression of free speech, the refusal to distribute your post is also an expression of free speech. This is true because, as you've already agreed, the right to free speech includes the right not to speak.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The second amendment is not compatible with the Democratic party. [Re: Enlil] 1
#26648239 - 05/04/20 12:21 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Enlil logic folks!
Not mine... many scholars.
Quote:
Enlil said: That's not even an issue that scholars would address.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,514
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: The second amendment is not compatible with the Democratic party. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26648265 - 05/04/20 12:29 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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Different issues. Scholars agree with me (and you, apparently) that the right not to speak is an inherent part of the freedom of speech. I doubt scholars have argued about the nuts and bolts of how a website works.
So, do you or do you not agree that Shroomery distributing your posts is an exercise of Shroomery's right to free speech?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The second amendment is not compatible with the Democratic party. [Re: Enlil]
#26648303 - 05/04/20 12:43 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Different issues. Scholars agree with me (and you, apparently) that the right not to speak is an inherent part of the freedom of speech. I doubt scholars have argued about the nuts and bolts of how a website works.
This was never about how a website works. You literally said "private censorship is actually increasing freedom of speech", and that's what I took issue with.
Quote:
Enlil said: So, do you or do you not agree that Shroomery distributing your posts is an exercise of Shroomery's right to free speech?
Again, you're shifting the goalposts. Reread your original statement. The question was whether "private censorship is actually increasing freedom of speech". I want to see where scholars said that.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,514
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: The second amendment is not compatible with the Democratic party. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26648305 - 05/04/20 12:45 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: So, do you or do you not agree that Shroomery distributing your posts is an exercise of Shroomery's right to free speech?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The second amendment is not compatible with the Democratic party. [Re: Enlil]
#26648347 - 05/04/20 01:11 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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In the same way as me adding a bumper sticker to your car is an exercise of your right to free speech.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,514
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: The second amendment is not compatible with the Democratic party. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26648356 - 05/04/20 01:14 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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Can you explain that opinion? Shroomery actively distributes your posts. Something painted on my wall by a third party without my consent requires no action by me whatsoever.
Same thing with the bumper sticker after your edit. That requires no action by me.
Without the Shroomery actively sending your post to people, no one will see it.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The second amendment is not compatible with the Democratic party. [Re: Enlil]
#26648369 - 05/04/20 01:21 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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I can assure you there's no one at the shroomery actively distributing posts either when people click on them. The process is automatic.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,514
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: The second amendment is not compatible with the Democratic party. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26648371 - 05/04/20 01:24 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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It's only automatic because the shroomery has created an automatic process to do it. That doesn't change the fact that someone had to actively create that process and people must continue to act to keep that process occurring.
That's completely different from you just putting a bumper sticker on my car. People will drive by and see it even if I do nothing.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The second amendment is not compatible with the Democratic party. [Re: Enlil]
#26648382 - 05/04/20 01:31 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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Maybe a different example would make it easier for you to see. Let's say I put up a physical bulletin board for job postings. Then a pimp posts on my bulletin board looking for hookers. Is his action an exercise of my right to free speech? After all, I actively put up that bulletin board.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,514
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: The second amendment is not compatible with the Democratic party. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26648386 - 05/04/20 01:33 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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No. His act is an exercise of his right to free speech. If you discover his post and leave it, THAT's an expression of your right to free speech. If you discover his post and remove it, THAT TOO is an expression of your right to free speech.
The part that triggers your right to free speech is your active participation. Doing or choosing not to do something, in other words.
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



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Re: The second amendment is not compatible with the Democratic party. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26648415 - 05/04/20 01:47 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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I used to be a pimp for a horse, but she only got paid for sex one time. She was a real one trick pony.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (05/04/20 01:47 PM)
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
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Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: The second amendment is not compatible with the Democratic party. [Re: SirTripAlot]
#26648422 - 05/04/20 01:53 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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She was such a Debbie downer. One time she walked into a bar, and the bartender said, "why the long face?"
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twighead
mͯó



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Re: The second amendment is not compatible with the Democratic party. [Re: Enlil]
#26648730 - 05/04/20 05:21 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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Why should ponies have to know tricks to justify their existence?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The second amendment is not compatible with the Democratic party. [Re: Enlil]
#26648835 - 05/04/20 06:16 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Maybe a different example would make it easier for you to see. Let's say I put up a physical bulletin board for job postings. Then a pimp posts on my bulletin board looking for hookers. Is his action an exercise of my right to free speech? After all, I actively put up that bulletin board.
No. His act is an exercise of his right to free speech. If you discover his post and leave it, THAT's an expression of your right to free speech. If you discover his post and remove it, THAT TOO is an expression of your right to free speech.
The part that triggers your right to free speech is your active participation. Doing or choosing not to do something, in other words.
Ah, so when you said "private censorship is actually increasing freedom of speech", you meant ""private censorship is actually increasing freedom of speech for the private company that censors other people's speech", you didn't mean it's increasing free speech for the country.
I get it now.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,514
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: The second amendment is not compatible with the Democratic party. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26648840 - 05/04/20 06:17 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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It isn't necessarily a company. I meant increasing overall.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The second amendment is not compatible with the Democratic party. [Re: Enlil]
#26648857 - 05/04/20 06:29 PM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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If you allow one person to censor speech he doesn't like, where is the increase? I follow that censoring speech is free speech by Enlil logic (or scholarly logic if you ever find such an article) so that's the gain, but the other person loses when his speech is censored.
I don't see the increase overall?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
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Re: The second amendment is not compatible with the Democratic party. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 4
#26648984 - 05/04/20 07:22 PM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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Because when you make a post, you get to use your right to free speech. When I delete it, shroomery gets to use theirs. That's double the freedom. If it's not deleted, only you got to use your freedom.
I realized that you'd probably take that literally. That was partially a joke.
The real issue is that when you post, you use your freedom. If the shroomery deletes or doesn't delete your post voluntarily, that's shroomery using its freedom. If, however, shroomery doesn't have that choice, that's only you having freedom.
Shroomery's right to censor your post doubles the amount of freedom.
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