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OfflineSpooge
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Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD?
    #2607208 - 04/27/04 05:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

.


Edited by Spooge (11/18/12 01:40 PM)


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Spooge]
    #2607220 - 04/27/04 05:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I think that he denounced LSD once. I can't remember where I read that.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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OfflineSpooge
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2607250 - 04/27/04 06:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Really? I'd like to know more. Anyone else have anything on this?


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Spooge]
    #2607267 - 04/27/04 06:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I leant my copy of Food of the Gods to a friend but I definitely remember him being against, to some extent at least, synthetics such as LSD, synthesized DMT, and so on...

I'll get the book back tomorrow and post a quote for you.


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Spooge]
    #2607273 - 04/27/04 06:12 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I found it.

I read it in "The Archaic Revival - Speculations on Psychedelic Mushrooms, the Amazon, Virtual Reality, UFOs, Evolution, Shamanism, the Rebirth of the Goddess, and the End of History" byTerence McKenna


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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OfflineSpooge
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Krishna]
    #2607291 - 04/27/04 06:17 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

.


Edited by Spooge (11/18/12 01:40 PM)


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OfflineTrip
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Spooge]
    #2607308 - 04/27/04 06:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

maybe he likes extracted? and yeah i dont think mckenna is by any means a fan of lsd. hes deffinately not a recreational drug user and thats what i find lsd to be. i never get spiritual with the lsd molecule, shrooms and dpt are mine though.


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OfflineSpooge
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Trip]
    #2607343 - 04/27/04 06:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

huh? extracted? I guess I'm not knowledgable about dmt. From what I thought I knew, the only smokable version for the powerful dmt trip, is that orange type crystal(made in a lab).


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Spooge]
    #2607370 - 04/27/04 06:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

In an interview with Jay Levin, McKenna said this, "When I was young I would take LSD once a month or so, but I wasn't that crazy aboutit. I found it abrasively psychoanalytical, and I found it very hard to hallucinate. My interest in mysticism, art, and that sort of thing had caused me to put a very high premium on hallucination.",
and later when asked about heroic dosages for certain psychedelics he said, "Well, I can give it to you in a nutshell. There are three questions that you should ask yourself about a drug that you're considering taking. Number one, does it occur naturally in a plant or an animal? Because nature has use-tested these compounds over millions and millions of years. Something that came out of the laboratory four or five years ago--who knows? So it should be a product of the natural world. Number two, does it have a history of human usage? Mushrooms do. Mescaline does. LSD doesn't. Ecstacy doesn't. And number three, and most important, it should have some affinity to brain chemistry. It shouldn't be just like landing on the moon; it should be related to what is driving ordinary consciousness. This last criteria is the most narrow, because mescaline won't get through that. LSD won't get through that......."

There's more to that paragrah but my fingers are tired and I can't type worth a crap anyways.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


Edited by Ekstaza (04/27/04 06:42 PM)


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Spooge]
    #2607414 - 04/27/04 06:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I've heard that he had never tried LSD, but on my "Alien Dreamtime" cd, he talks about his first experience with DMT. He said something to the effect of "since I was a graduate of Mr. Hofmann's........".

I take that to mean that he had used LSD. Unless he meant Hofmann's sythesis of psilocybin.






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--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish



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OfflineTrip
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2607426 - 04/27/04 06:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

interesting stuff ekstaza, and yes dmt can be extracted. its a chemical in dozens of plants in south america from barks to grass and is used by them for spiritual rituals. go to erowid and look up ayahuasca.


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Learyfan]
    #2607438 - 04/27/04 06:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

In that interview with Jay Levin, Terence McKenna said that he probably had taken LSD over 150 times.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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OfflineSpooge
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2607486 - 04/27/04 07:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

.


Edited by Spooge (11/18/12 01:39 PM)


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OfflineSpooge
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Trip]
    #2607502 - 04/27/04 07:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

.


Edited by Spooge (11/18/12 01:39 PM)


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OfflineVulture
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Spooge]
    #2607511 - 04/27/04 07:08 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

yeah i agree...lsd gives me way more hallucinations. Although if you take enough shrooms and DMT and shit you will be tlaking to aliens....on lsd you would just "die" or something. LSD my hallucinations have more to do with my suroundings and sutff....mushrooms have nothing to do with whats around me really....there from across the universe. So mabey thats what he thinks of a hallucination.


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Work like you dont need the money.

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OfflineSpooge
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Vulture]
    #2607608 - 04/27/04 07:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

good point. I do agree with him on how lsd makes me psychoanalytical(sp?).

But with my experience, I do have to say I find myself to be "happier" on lsd. I have never ingested huge doses mind you, but anytime I've been on lsd, nothing can go wrong. Everything is beautiful, happy, etc.

Don't get me wrong, mushrooms are the same for me most of the time too. But for me...I realize there is a "darker side", so to say, to them. I don't fuck with mushroom. And from the doses of lsd I've taken, I could care less.


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OfflineVulture
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Spooge]
    #2607670 - 04/27/04 07:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

yeha dont fuck witht he mushroom....take 10 grams and you will know what i mean.

on doses im completly content


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Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.


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OfflineSpooge
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Vulture]
    #2607684 - 04/27/04 07:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

haha crazy.  I imagine I have an idea.  I took 4 grams(dried) of some very thick, very blue mushrooms for my first psychedelic experience ever.  I don't know what kind they were, but lots of people were ranting about them for over a year.  And then the guy who was selling them, dissapeared.  too bad.

But yeah, that first time was absoulutley insane...in a good way  :mushroom2:


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Offlinepsikooz
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Vulture]
    #2607708 - 04/27/04 07:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Once again, every chemical effects everybody in different ways.


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Spooge]
    #2607841 - 04/27/04 08:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

entityexperiment said:
I don't mean to relentless try to put down all ideas...I guess I'm anaylitical(sp?) by nature.





Question everything. Personally I've had a hard time reading that book. I once thought of Terence McKenna as some sort of revolutionary thinker and pioneer of psychedelia, but the more I read in that book the more he just seems like he's lost it. I find a lot of the things he says very kooky and off the wall.

Now I'm going to go down into my cellar to await the storming of my door. To all of those that like his thoughts and teachings, I apologize for thinking bad of them. Oh well.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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InvisibleHelp on the Way
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2607996 - 04/27/04 08:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Ekstaza said:
I once thought of Terence McKenna as some sort of revolutionary thinker and pioneer of psychedelia, but the more I read in that book the more he just seems like he's lost it. I find a lot of the things he says very kooky and off the wall.




personally i gotta agree with you


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:shocked: *Divine Moments of Truth* :shocked:


"Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon

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"Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter


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OfflineSpooge
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Help on the Way]
    #2608063 - 04/27/04 08:55 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

.


Edited by Spooge (11/18/12 01:38 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Spooge]
    #2609316 - 04/28/04 12:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Hello Pub,

I'm new to Mckenna too.

I haven't heard many folks talking about psychedelics who were as articulate and imaginative or who have as broad a range of knowledge as Mckenna seems to have had. Very refreshing to find him.

edit: delete stuff about which i have no clue.


Edited by bufo (04/28/04 07:58 PM)


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: ]
    #2609685 - 04/28/04 02:10 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I agree. I think Mckenna was a total nut.


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #2609774 - 04/28/04 02:27 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I like Terence because hearing him talk stimulates my imagination.  I don't necessarily believe what his says, but since I write fantasy stories, it definately gets me in the writing mood.  :smile:


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: MOTH]
    #2609894 - 04/28/04 02:56 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

His ideas were . . . interesting ;-)


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Offlineoggleman
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2610231 - 04/28/04 03:45 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Yo Mama said:
Number one, does it occur naturally in a plant or an animal? Because nature has use-tested these compounds over millions and millions of years. Something that came out of the laboratory four or five years ago--who knows? So it should be a product of the natural world.

Number two, does it have a history of human usage? Mushrooms do. Mescaline does. LSD doesn't. Ecstacy doesn't.

And number three, and most important, it should have some affinity to brain chemistry. It shouldn't be just like landing on the moon; it should be related to what is driving ordinary consciousness. This last criteria is the most narrow, because mescaline won't get through that. LSD won't get through that......."




Precisely :thumbup:

I took some liberties with paragraphs... sorry  :shocked:


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: oggleman]
    #2610304 - 04/28/04 03:59 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Are you saying that you believe that garbage?


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Offlineergot
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Spooge]
    #2610665 - 04/28/04 09:55 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I'm a fan of Timothy Leary, though. McKenna is food for thought.... but his theories are too far-fetched. I'm keeping an eye out for 2012, though...


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"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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Offlinevalour
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: MOTH] * 1
    #2610674 - 04/28/04 10:02 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

He even says so himself on his own theories:
"I don't necessarily believe what the mushroom tells me; rather we have a dialogue. It is a very strange person and has many bizarre opinions. I entertain it the way I would an eccentric friend. I say, 'Well, so that's what you think.'"

Just because you find it off the wall don't discount everything. Consider reading it all and think "this is one angle to look at things" and see what you can pull out for your own benefit and edification.


--------------------
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I didn't sell out-
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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Spooge]
    #2611361 - 04/28/04 02:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I definitely find McKenna's theories interesting... some of it seems a bit out there... some of it strikes close to home (his classification of cocaine, heroin, refined sugar, caffeine, and television in the same category, for example)...

But definitely good reading.


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OfflineNoviseer
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Spooge]
    #2611439 - 04/28/04 03:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

McKenna's unenthuseasm about LSD doesn't stem from its being synthetic, its just its lack of "soul." He wasn't against LSD, it just didn't impress him like shrooms and DMT did. He said it was a good tool for boundary disolution, but not even in the same realm as his preffered plant psychedelics.


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OfflineNoviseer
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Help on the Way]
    #2611461 - 04/28/04 03:21 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Slipknot420 said:
Quote:

Ekstaza said:
I once thought of Terence McKenna as some sort of revolutionary thinker and pioneer of psychedelia, but the more I read in that book the more he just seems like he's lost it. I find a lot of the things he says very kooky and off the wall.




personally i gotta agree with you




Basically every great thinker and revolutionary in history was kooky, off the wall, a lunatic.


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_______________________________________________________________
namaste said:
no flamz in da ODD, if you got nothing to contribute then keep yo lips zipped
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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Spooge]
    #2612098 - 04/28/04 05:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

hmmm...
& jonathan ott had done plenty of self-experimentation with a variety of entheogens... & yet when asked by friend scott as we were driving ott from the airport in erie pa to starwood festival in ny a few years ago as to which was his favorite psychedelic/entheogen, he replied "lsd"
so, i suppose i comes down to a matter of personal taste or style, and "non gustibus disputandum" as they say back in roma...


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Offlinesunshine
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Trip]
    #2612186 - 04/28/04 05:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Isn't LSD extracted from the fungus, ergot?


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: sunshine]
    #2612325 - 04/28/04 06:28 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

No. A substance that can be used as a precursor to in LSD synthesis is found in ergot.


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Invisiblechinacat72
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Spooge]
    #2612501 - 04/28/04 07:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I was just listning to a  tape of Mckenna at Boulder Colorado an he said he considered LSD fabulous. He didn't want to take it because mushrooms and DMT provided him with more hallucinations.

I think even though Terrance has said a number of times he prefers  :mushroom2: and is not a big LSD fan he still considers it a good thing. He seams to have taken it a few hundred times in the 60's which set him on his path exploring psychedelics. As Gnmri said we all have our personal prefrences.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Spooge]
    #2680929 - 05/15/04 02:49 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

First of all, I will say I agree with you in regards to LSD feeling more "fun" in general..... However I don't know if that's necessarily a good thing :wink:. Life's not all fun and games :-D

I don't recall hearing Mckenna say he denounces LSD but I can see how he preferred the tryptamines over all else..

And the yellowish/brownish pastey crystley stuff that Mckenna refers to is extracted DMT - synthetic DMT from what I understand is pure dmt molecules, which look pure white from what I've seen, basically like salt or something (don't spill the salt, fucker! and DON'T throw it over your shoulder if you do!). this is why extracted stuff has a tint to it, because its not 100% dmt molecules; there is still other stuff left behind from the extraction unless one is a true pimp


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Strumpling]
    #2680957 - 05/15/04 02:56 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I don't recall hearing Mckenna say he denounces LSD but I can see how he preferred the tryptamines over all else..




I'm not sure I understand. LSD is a tryptamine.


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OfflineAislingGheal
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Strumpling]
    #2681462 - 05/15/04 08:44 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I think the thing about McKenna that throws people off the most is the fact that he took psychedelics so seriously. He wasn't against recreational usage but he had firm belief, based on experience, that psychedelics played a part in human evolution and would continue as a tool in the transformation of the human species. I don't find that theory far fetched. If nothing else he forces you to think on your own, to be aware of a wider web of being.


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"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao


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InvisibleKrishna
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: AislingGheal]
    #2681506 - 05/15/04 09:16 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I think he was against recreational usage. My desk is all a mess and i can't find my "Food of the Gods" right now, but i remember reading that he believed that because of the "recreational usage", the actual meaninfullness of these substances is being lost - especially with a drug like cannabis.


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OfflinePhishgrrl
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Trip]
    #2681665 - 05/15/04 11:09 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Trip said:
interesting stuff ekstaza, and yes dmt can be extracted. its  a chemical in dozens of plants in south america from barks to grass and is used by them for spiritual rituals. go to erowid and look up ayahuasca.



Rick Strassman (DMT the spirit molecule) says it is in almost every living thing to some extent. Our own bodies manufacture it! Some plants and animals like certain toads (esp. in S. America like you said) manufacture a lot more of the stuff). I think it is SO fascinating.  I have been trying to read everything I can get my hands on about dmt since I read that book.  :heart:


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OfflinePhishgrrl
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Spooge]
    #2681694 - 05/15/04 11:19 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

entityexperiment said:
That does make sense.  But I find it hard to believe he couldn't see hallucinations on lsd.




I always thought that too, because the hallucinations on lsd were almost too much for me sometimes, I mean- i couldn't stand to look at myself and other ppl looked so weird! But, I was talking to a friend the other day and asked why lots of lsd-makers put strycchnine in it, (because it always made my neck hurt really bad) and my friend told me it poisons us enough to make us hallucinate.  So maybe the really good clean LSD doesn't make ppl hallucinate as much....I'm sure McKenna had the clean stuff.  Also, I think some tend to hallucinate more than others just naturally.  I even hallucinate on weed sometimes.

Quote:

Also, in regards to the comment about it being safe because it comes from "nature".  There are plants that would kill you in less then 5 minutes, poisonous berries, etc.  Just because something has been in nature for millions of years, doesn't make it safe.  Also, hasn't lsd now been used by millions of people since it's discovery?  Of course, it can't compete with how long mushrooms and dmt containing plants have been around...but it has been around for some time now. But I wonder, what is an acceptable time for something to be considered "safe"?




I think that what McKenna is getting at is that humans (and other life forms) have been USING these psychoactive plants purposefully for thousands of years. Some people propose that anything you can eat, that grows- is poisonous to some degree- (there is a book called pharma kopoea that says this- excellent book btw). Some more than others obviously. Humans traditionally pass on knowledge about these plants from generation to generation, it's how we all survived. One of McKenna's biggest issues was that we are going to lose the knowlege of most of the plants in the rainforest within 30 years since all the indigenous ppls are leaving for "city life". So sad....
:sad:


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InvisibleAdom
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Phishgrrl]
    #2681708 - 05/15/04 11:23 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Strycchnine isn't in LSD and those tensions you are having are up to individual user, I've only had those once and I've seen plenty of people get them right beside me and I feel no muscle discomfort/tension what so ever.


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OfflinePhishgrrl
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Adom]
    #2681731 - 05/15/04 11:31 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Really? How do you know <<<not being rude! Is it just an urban myth then? I'm curious!


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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Phishgrrl]
    #2681757 - 05/15/04 11:36 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_myth2.shtml
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_myth5.shtml
I don't blame you for asking! This is how we get rid of silly myths, thank you erowid!


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Anonymous

Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Phishgrrl]
    #2681759 - 05/15/04 11:37 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Hmm I too have had horrible back pain, while others on same stuff didnt. Interesting. But I kinda had in my mind that it was from an accident a while back and it was its way of telling me to take care of my self.


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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: ]
    #2681762 - 05/15/04 11:38 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

It's possible that it is from impurities but I don't think anyone knows for sure.


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OfflinePhishgrrl
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Adom]
    #2681771 - 05/15/04 11:42 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

WOW- Thanks! Now I rest at ease knowing i didn't TOTALLY fuck myself up with LSD.


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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Phishgrrl]
    #2681778 - 05/15/04 11:45 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

LSD only makes repairs..


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OfflineSpace Monkey
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Adom]
    #17001390 - 10/09/12 11:00 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

"LSD only makes repairs"
Tell that to Syd Barrett.
In addition to their capacity to heal the mind, psychedelics also have the potential to cause serious harm. I've seen LSD help cure cocaine addiction, and I've seen it help people who were institutionalized in prison to open up again, as well as many other less "practical" but still tangible uses.
But, I also know a guy who had a family history of mental illness who got quite fucked up by it. Would the delusions have hit him at some point in life anyway? Probably, but it most definitely accelerated the process. He felt LSD had allowed him to "tune in" to other people's thoughts. Funny thing is, I don't entirely discredit that ability, at times...but the whole "aliens are coming to kill us all" was where I drew the line.


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OfflineAmazonianGuruS
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: Space Monkey]
    #17001467 - 10/09/12 11:07 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Terence was an AVID fan of 360 degree visual hallucinations, and LSD would only do that if he smoked Aghani Hash...



Wait until about 2:40 seconds, or just skip to it.

This is in his later years, when you can tell his mind was starting to go, but he still had it.

Fuck, I love Mckenna, xoxox.


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InvisibleHelp on the Way
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Re: Terence Mckenna's stance on LSD? [Re: AmazonianGuru]
    #17001884 - 10/09/12 11:53 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Its pretty amazing...i actually remember replying to this exact thread....eight fuckin years ago.....


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"Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon

"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right" ~The Grateful Dead

"Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter


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