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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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The Non-Existence of Morals & 'Evil' as a Viable Means of Connecting with 'The Divine'
    #15928179 - 03/10/12 02:50 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I would immediately like to note that I do not personally condone murder, violence and harm of any being without very reasonable grounds. This is not an argument attempting to justify the nature of the deeds I am writing about, but was written as an intellectual and spiritual exercise reflecting my pushing of myself into a place of the taboo, in order to deepen my own understanding of self and world and the circumstances to which I am bound as a human creature.

I will start this post on 'Evil' as a viable means of connecting with the divine and wrap it up with a writing of mine Titled "Morals?" on the nature of morality.



A Dark Shaman of Guyana, known as a Kanaima, perching on a rock.
Kanaima are particularly known for their ritual stalking, hunting and inducing of a lingering, painful, violent death in their prey. They are also known for their exhuming of their victims corpses in order to cut out a section of their intestinal tract in which they eat. They also retrieve other parts in which they use in divination for rituals and guidance toward their next victim.


There are many forms of Dark Shamanism throughout the world, whose goal in ‘evil’ deeds is essentially in their nature designed for the practitioner to experience, align with and/or communicate with a force beyond them.

Westerners ideas of humanities ancient spiritual traditions often border the whimsical, rejecting the prevalence and importance in understanding a large facet of the human mystery by ignoring the large presence and history of ‘dark shamanistic’ traditions and many of the underlying cosmologies of these practices in general, from all throughout the world. This can be most readily seen when looking at the influx of interest in shamanism in the west and it’s distortion as well as the gross exploitation of those peoples and their traditions.

I personally feel there is much to be learned about ourselves and our deepest roots as a species when one is brave enough to take a look into these practices and their viability as a means of experiencing the deepest mysteries of being human.

-----------

Morals?



An animal abused by its owner, beaten out of malice he delights in. The animal still loves his owner unconditionally, although he is undeserving of it.

A man trains his dog to kill, it makes his master happy which naturally arouses happiness within him; he seeks only to please his master… Our sense of morality can make it difficult to smile upon what this dog was trained to do, typically. Society must destroy this monster, but who is the true monster? The man? Or the dog, incapable of knowing our ‘moral sense’?

A lion pounces on a zebra, tearing its throat, the pride joins, ripping the meat from its still thrashing body, blood pours from its wounds onto the warm earth as its life force grows dim and no longer animates the strange vessel it belonged to, a painful and brutal death.
The lions do not experience this as being cruel and are in fact totally incapable of understanding the concept of cruelty. They are not bound by what we humans call ‘morality’ or ‘moral sense’. They cannot reflect upon their deeds and sense them as wrong or right, good or bad. They are innocent in their acts.

Humans have bathed in one another’s blood, since our dawn. A dark and violent history we still seem to have not come to terms with yet… And still do not take responsibility for.
We can and do consciously harm, aware of the physical and emotional trauma we cause others, animals and the planet. You are not innocent, no prayer or idea can change this.
What human would not like to believe he or she is of the most noble of creatures to grace this living earth? I s a truly noble creature capable of killing and causing harm for the sake of doing such alone? Whilst conscious of the agony it inflicts upon others, at times drawing joy and pleasure from it? After all, is it not our moral senses which leads to the repulsion of such behavior and often times prevent us from intellectual exploration into these facets of being human? Can it not be argued that the taboo nature brought about by our moral sense often feeds into the delighting in and pleasure of such acts?

It is obvious without need to say that not all humans are this way, and a large deal of us mean well. Yet an honest glance at the state and affairs of our race reveals that our species is not as noble and true to our highest morals and capacities as we would love to believe.
What noble and intelligent creature decimates and poisons the very earth and waters that sustain it, understands the harm it is doing, yet still continues?  What good is this moral sense we have if this is how we behave? Repugnant…

I mean not for these words to be tinged with misanthropy, I mean only to be as honest as possible when looking at my species, my culture, community, friends, family and self…
Nor do I mean to sound ‘dark’ or ‘negative’ - These being a part of that blinding human faculty I have been speaking of that according to our own specio-centric arrogance, has made us more noble than the rest of the animal kingdom…
Outside of our sense of negative and good, things are as they are and affect the world and ourselves as they do, their effects having impacts on our personal wellbeing and the rest of the planets…  Potentially, none of which, being truly wrong or right. Without us, there nothing to perceive them as such, without us, our morals do not exist.”

--


What are your thoughts, feelings and opinions on the nature of morality and violence and murder as a viable means of aligning with and connecting to powers beyond ourselves?


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To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.

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InvisibleJessica Swift
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Re: The Non-Existence of Morals & 'Evil' as a Viable Means of Connecting with 'The Divine' [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #15928412 - 03/10/12 05:58 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

What are your thoughts, feelings and opinions on the nature of morality and violence and murder as a viable means of aligning with and connecting to powers beyond ourselves?




Seeking outside yourself?

I think we've been here before.

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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: The Non-Existence of Morals & 'Evil' as a Viable Means of Connecting with 'The Divine' [Re: Jessica Swift]
    #15928505 - 03/10/12 07:11 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Not sure what you are getting at.

And I'm not so sure there is such a thing as truly seeking and understanding "outside myself"... Given I am constantly bound by experiencing through my means of doing so...
Albeit, it would be rather intense to be able to abandon all that is me and experience through some alien means, perhaps as you, or as a tree... I would say as nothing, but to consciously experience nothing, to experience oblivion would be paradoxical in it's nature. Experience oblivion.... Hmm.:strokebeard:

If it's in reference to wanting other peoples thoughts on the matter, I kind of added it to encourage discussion. I want to see peoples thoughts, or see people squirm in their skin, or to squirm in my own...
Perhaps someone can say something that would make me turn my eyes inward in a manner that I would lose my perspective I projected through these words in it's entirety which would give rise to a different, new way of seeing. Either way, it's all me in the end... :teleport:


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To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.

Edited by Raven Gnosis (03/10/12 07:19 AM)

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The Non-Existence of Morals & 'Evil' as a Viable Means of Connecting with 'The Divine' [Re: Raven Gnosis] * 1
    #15935893 - 03/11/12 11:51 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Excellent post!  I personally think that there is much spiritual value in conquering fear of karmic retribution by transcending socially-given constructs of morality.  The dark shaman incinerates his self in the Inferno and rises from the ashes reborn, free from the attachments that once bound him.

or does conscience make cowards of us all?  :wink:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Edited by deCypher (03/15/18 12:25 PM)

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Offlinehusmmoor
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Re: The Non-Existence of Morals & 'Evil' as a Viable Means of Connecting with 'The Divine' [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #15938720 - 03/12/12 05:25 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Did you read the book about the Kanaima practices, researched by an anthropologist after he escaped an attempted ritual poisoning?
http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Shamans-Kanaima-Poetics-Violent/dp/0822329883/

I can't say I share your ideas about "evil" as a possible liberating force but I've been wanting to read that book for a while.

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: The Non-Existence of Morals & 'Evil' as a Viable Means of Connecting with 'The Divine' [Re: Raven Gnosis] * 2
    #15938729 - 03/12/12 05:26 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Cool topic. I like the Buddhist idea that it is ignorance which causes suffering. They really don't put too much weight in the good-evil dichotomy, which seems impossible to reconcile from the vantage point of an Earth-bound human. Ignorance seems to be neutral in nature.

By being able to look at the darkness, and accept it, we are able to transcend it. Isn't this what all of the non-dual schools are pointing to? That there is some sort of formless ground which gives rise to the manifest. In that sense what happens in the land of impermanence should not weigh us down so much - we are just transient visitors who will become dirt, whether we die of old age or are brutally eaten by a lion.

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OfflineLSDenthusiast
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Re: The Non-Existence of Morals & 'Evil' as a Viable Means of Connecting with 'The Divine' [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #15938929 - 03/12/12 06:10 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I find the Aghori's of India to be quite fascinating. Interesting post, thanks for sharing.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Non-Existence of Morals & 'Evil' as a Viable Means of Connecting with 'The Divine' [Re: Raven Gnosis] * 1
    #15939058 - 03/12/12 06:37 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

An animal abused by its owner, beaten out of malice he delights in. The animal still loves his owner unconditionally, although he is undeserving of it.

I want to point this out as a complete fallacy.  Having been a dog trainer and working with dogs and owning them for much of my life and being in rescue work I have never seen one case of an abused dog unconditionally loving it's owner.  If a dog cringes back to an abusive owner it is out of fear alone. Fear of not being able to survive on their own.  Many dogs however take that risk.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: The Non-Existence of Morals & 'Evil' as a Viable Means of Connecting with 'The Divine' [Re: Icelander]
    #15945428 - 03/14/12 08:47 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Love that poem deCypher...




Quote:

husmmoor said:
Did you read the book about the Kanaima practices, researched by an anthropologist after he escaped an attempted ritual poisoning?
http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Shamans-Kanaima-Poetics-Violent/dp/0822329883/

I can't say I share your ideas about "evil" as a possible liberating force but I've been wanting to read that book for a while.




Of course, I often find myself loaning out the book because of the discussions I get into and the curiosity it sparks.
His work is some of the only of it's nature right now and it's all very good.

In the book he interviews a nurse and that written interview is transcribed from these two videos...





Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Cool topic. I like the Buddhist idea that it is ignorance which causes suffering. They really don't put too much weight in the good-evil dichotomy, which seems impossible to reconcile from the vantage point of an Earth-bound human. Ignorance seems to be neutral in nature.

By being able to look at the darkness, and accept it, we are able to transcend it. Isn't this what all of the non-dual schools are pointing to? That there is some sort of formless ground which gives rise to the manifest. In that sense what happens in the land of impermanence should not weigh us down so much - we are just transient visitors who will become dirt, whether we die of old age or are brutally eaten by a lion.




Indeed. :strokebeard:


Quote:

LSDenthusiast said:
I find the Aghori's of India to be quite fascinating. Interesting post, thanks for sharing.



Me too...  I found a 6 part documentary on youtube the other day, got to part three and fell asleep. Need to finish it.



Quote:

Icelander said:
An animal abused by its owner, beaten out of malice he delights in. The animal still loves his owner unconditionally, although he is undeserving of it.

I want to point this out as a complete fallacy.  Having been a dog trainer and working with dogs and owning them for much of my life and being in rescue work I have never seen one case of an abused dog unconditionally loving it's owner.  If a dog cringes back to an abusive owner it is out of fear alone. Fear of not being able to survive on their own.  Many dogs however take that risk.




Hmm. I personally wouldn’t be so quick to label it as complete fallacy.
It was not intended for that passage to be taken as some sort of multifarious truth, given it is rhetoric presented as a particular circumstance.

What sparked my writing of that specific passage for me was from my time living with a few folks who bred Lhasa apso...
There was one dog in particular who was always abused by one of the male figures in the household, who kicked it in the face, ribs etc. on many occasions... The dog really wasn’t afraid, but would flinch when he would go to kick it and despite the pain always managed to bite back, even though it had a few missing teeth from having it’s skull kicked… It had nothing to gain by being so loving toward everyone and this individual in particular and nothing to lose by avoiding that particular individual

for some reason; this dog did indeed love him still… Although badly abused, its spirit was not broken. It would try and cuddle up with him, would defend him when we’d rough around and even came to get our attention when his drunken ass had fallen off a ladder and knocked himself unconscious…  It was a sweet dog with a damn good spirit…

So from my place of experience I have trouble looking at my rhetoric as complete fallacy as I am pretty certain that it is circumstantial whether it is a fallacious or sound notion…


--------------------
To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.

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Offlineaureliadragoncat
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Re: The Non-Existence of Morals & 'Evil' as a Viable Means of Connecting with 'The Divine' [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #26059496 - 06/18/19 12:09 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

A lion pounces on a zebra, tearing its throat, the pride joins, ripping the meat from its still thrashing body, blood pours from its wounds onto the warm earth as its life force grows dim and no longer animates the strange vessel it belonged to, a painful and brutal death.
The lions do not experience this as being cruel and are in fact totally incapable of understanding the concept of cruelty. They are not bound by what we humans call ‘morality’ or ‘moral sense’. They cannot reflect upon their deeds and sense them as wrong or right, good or bad. They are innocent in their acts.



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