Brian Jones said:

some offenders taking the chemical castration drug have raped people with instruments..

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RJ Tubs 202 said:

As a teenage who was sexually abused by a family member, I don't support violent retaliation. That's my 2 cents.

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Brian Jones said:

I don't have data, but some offenders taking the chemical castration drug have raped people with instruments. Reduction in the sex drive and ability to get an erection don't guarantee they will stop being sex offenders. The pathology is in their brain. Some states after listening to the therapists who treat the offenders keep the worst ones  locked up for life. After their prison sentence is completed they are confined to another facility which does have much nicer conditions than a prison.

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Asante said:

...
I consider the notion that blocking testosterone and thus increasing estrogen would stop offense part of the misandry mindset of Man = Victimizer Woman = Victim that needs to stop too. ...

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Asante said:

...Testosterone is NOT Evil. I have been on high levels of it through anabolic steroids (legal in my country) and it didnt turn me into Tarzan the Rapeman. The notion is insultuing to manhood.

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Quote:

A 2016 study reports that levels of this hormone decline by 0.4–2.0 percent each year after the age of 30.

In some men, this decline leads to depression, reduced libido, erectile dysfunction, and low energy. When a man has a low level of testosterone, a doctor may recommend testosterone injections.

Some people worry that too much estrogen is the cause of low testosterone. This is a myth. Estrogen and testosterone do not oppose each other.

Estrogen is vital for men's health. It supports the functioning of almost every area of the body, including the brain, heart, bones, muscles, and the immune system.

However, if a man's estrogen levels are too high, this can cause a number of health problems, including obesity and depression.

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Quote:

Vince Li, the man who was found not criminally responsible for beheading a man on a Greyhound bus in 2008, has been granted an absolute discharge.

The Manitoba Criminal Code Review Board ordered the discharge on Friday, saying Li, now known as Will Lee Baker, does not pose a significant safety threat.

Baker was found to have been suffering from untreated schizophrenia when he stabbed, beheaded and partially cannibalized Tim McLean, 22.

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Quote:

Matt Logan, a former RCMP officer and forensic psychologist, said he thinks Baker's absolute discharge isn't in the public interest. He said he would have preferred to see a conditional discharge that included requirements for Baker's continued surveillance by mental health professionals.

Logan, who has never worked with Baker, said the man may have progressed well in an environment of support and structure, but he worries an absolute discharge could mean Baker won't access those resources anymore.

"I am concerned about a relapse. I'm concerned about a lack of insight in the taking of medications," he said.

"But the public interest looks at this and says, you know, 'Nine years? Nine years, really, for this kind of crime?' And I think we have to weigh that as well."

Logan said society needs to improve the way it bridges criminal justice and mental health. His own professional experience has included both.

"The de-institutionalizing of people with mental illnesses and putting them into the public and leaving them to the criminal justice to monitor — I think we have to have a lot of discussion about this yet."

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Tantrika said:

[quote block deleted for readability]

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Kryptos said:

[quote blocks maintained for accuracy]

1) Cool. What if I say you're a child molester? No quarter. Get the ropes! No need for a trial or evidence or any of that other bullshit.
...

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Kryptos said:

[quote blocks maintained for accuracy]
...
2) I did not say I was happy they didn't report it. I simply said they did not report it, and confided in a few people, because they didn't want to be "the girls that got raped" for the next few years. I have no opinion on whether they should have reported it or not. I was not a part of the crime, I was not a victim, and it's not my job to tell them what to do.
...

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Kryptos said:

[quote blocks maintained for accuracy]
...

3) Yes I was bothered with that outcome.

4) As I said here.

Which is why I think your suggestion that child molesters should be given no quarter is so worrying.
...

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Kryptos said:

[quote blocks maintained for accuracy]
...
Also, you distinguish between rapists and drug offenders, okay. ...

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Kryptos said:

[quote blocks maintained for accuracy]
...
Where's the line? What about...drunk drivers? ...

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Kryptos said:

[quote blocks maintained for accuracy]
...What about drunk drivers with kids in the car? ...

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Kryptos said:

[quote blocks maintained for accuracy]
...What about conmen?
...

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Kryptos said:

[quote blocks maintained for accuracy]
...Where is the line between "fuck this guy with a rusty fork" and "yeah, he'll probably straighten out"? Seems like you have it somewhere.

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the line differs by crime
premeditated murder? fuck them
murder as a crime of passion? they may straighten out, and appropriately move back into productive society
murder as a crime of passion defending a child from rape or molestation? let them go free

rapist guilty of rape of a civillian? fuck them
rapist guilty of rape of an inmate? fuck them, but with the recognition that broader society is probably cheering because of the nature of the victim
rapist guilty of rape of a child? fuck them, but with no recognition that there is a problem with broader society cheering over the demise of the rapist


Personally consider that rape and sexual assault on the whole are treated too lightly

Quote:

Would consider the sacrifice of my life worthy if it meant legimate child molestors would receive no quarter and children would be safer

How about you?

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Quote:

Okay, cool
now how do you feel about the fact that despite them avoiding reporting it so they would not be remembered as "the girls that got raped"
you have gone on to repeatedly talk about them in a narrative manner where the fact that they got raped is what was noteworthy about their lives

you and koods accused me of perpetuating a view where people are nothing but victims
but you didn't open with something like "I know this really great and talented woman who moved to Africa to help sick children and sought to stop female circumcision; she was raped in college, but do not consider that to define her"

whether you intended to or not,
you have been reinforcing my point that their lives have funadementally differed since their assault
compared even to something as simple as how they would be treated by you in your narratives discussing them if they had not been assaulted

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Quote:

the line differs by crime
premeditated murder? fuck them
murder as a crime of passion? they may straighten out, and appropriately move back into productive society
murder as a crime of passion defending a child from rape or molestation? let them go free

rapist guilty of rape of a civillian? fuck them
rapist guilty of rape of an inmate? fuck them, but with the recognition that broader society is probably cheering because of the nature of the victim
rapist guilty of rape of a child? fuck them, but with no recognition that there is a problem with broader society cheering over the demise of the rapist


Personally consider that rape and sexual assault on the whole are treated too lightly

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Kryptos said:

Quote:

Would consider the sacrifice of my life worthy if it meant legimate child molestors would receive no quarter and children would be safer

How about you?

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Hell no. I don't want to be lynched for any reason. Matter of fact, this is why I stay away from kids. I was recently in a conversation and someone asked me what I'd do if I found a clearly lost child. I'd walk the other direction, quickly. As a big dude, helping kids doesn't look good.
...

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Kryptos said:

...

Quote:

Okay, cool
now how do you feel about the fact that despite them avoiding reporting it so they would not be remembered as "the girls that got raped"
you have gone on to repeatedly talk about them in a narrative manner where the fact that they got raped is what was noteworthy about their lives

you and koods accused me of perpetuating a view where people are nothing but victims
but you didn't open with something like "I know this really great and talented woman who moved to Africa to help sick children and sought to stop female circumcision; she was raped in college, but do not consider that to define her"

whether you intended to or not,
you have been reinforcing my point that their lives have funadementally differed since their assault
compared even to something as simple as how they would be treated by you in your narratives discussing them if they had not been assaulted

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I could go on and on about what they do, but all of that is irrelevant to the topic. Which is rape.
...

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And why did you bring discussion of the specific individuals into the conversation?
from here, it appears to have been a part of your claim that my position reduces people entirely to victimhood
but am open to you providing another justification

If anything,
currently the fact that you wave away any ability to talk about other aspects of their life, once again, reinforces my statement that you and koods objected to

Kryptos said:

...
Ah, so there is a line. Who decides that line? You did support lynchings before. What if I decide that jaywalking is a crime worthy of being strung up? That cool?

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You have used a jaywalking example multiple times in this thread
do you legitimately equate jaywalking with the severity of rape of children
is that where you have decided it is best to draw the line?

My position is to fine jaywalkers, jail them if they get beligerent over it

if they jaywalk across a street in order to molest a little kid tho, then lynch them for all my caring

Kryptos said:

1) Yeah, I'm not willing to lay down my life for pretty much anything. Sue me.

I've heard enough stories and accusations that I'd rather just remove myself from that situation. Even an accusation could end my career, and as you have demonstrated, my life. Helping some kid isn't worth it, because society's first assumption will be "child molester".

I also didn't mean "big man" as in morally. I meant physically big. Like, potentially intimidating. This makes the chance of accusation even worse.

...

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Kryptos said:

...
2) Okay. Yes. They have been reduced to nothing but victimhood. Because they are victims. Even years after the fact. Should we treat them as such for all eternity? Should we pick apart any of their actions and somehow relate it to their status as a victim? We do that quite a bit in society. Is that good?
...

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Kryptos said:

...
3) No. I am not equating the severity of the crime. My point is why does one deserve a trial and forgiveness while the other deserves a lynching?
...

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Kryptos said:

...
Because there are some fucked up people in the world. I'm sure there's at least one person that does equate jaywalking to child molestation, somewhere, and would feel justified lynching a jaywalker. The problem isn't one of criminal severity, the problem is your casual disregard for legal procedure in some cases that you arbitrarily decide.

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Kryptos said:

Quote:

Would rather see physical castration and emasculation of sexual and child abusers;

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You're half-assing again. Why not just shoot them? No trial, no jury, just "hey, he's a child molester!" BANG!

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you responded to my personal position that physical castration as a parole condition instead of chemical castration
was like giving no trial, no jury, and a shot in the street

you decided to introduce a nutso position,
and, as such, have been personally countering with nutso position

string all the child rapists up at different heights so we can pluck the strings of their nooses for a musical number

Tantrika said:

Asante said:

...
I consider the notion that blocking testosterone and thus increasing estrogen would stop offense part of the misandry mindset of Man = Victimizer Woman = Victim that needs to stop too. ...

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You likely know more about hormones than me
but how much of an increase in estrogen is attained just by testosterone blockers
compared to the need for transwomen to take estrogen supplements to transition in a manner that makes them recognizable as female?

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Tantrika said:

Asante said:

...Testosterone is NOT Evil. I have been on high levels of it through anabolic steroids (legal in my country) and it didnt turn me into Tarzan the Rapeman. The notion is insultuing to manhood.

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Testosterone is not evil, but it does tie directly to sexual virility
which is why testosterone injections are a recognized treatment for diminished libido and erectile dysfunction

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Male virility doesnt equate to rape though. Rape is a violent offense. Let me ask you, suppose you had children. Would you feel safe about them being around a convicted child sex offender who has 100% of his testosterone blocked?
I don't think you would.

Just like with the Lysine dinos of Jurassic Park, with libidoless sex offenders, "nature will find a way". They will find things to do with your child that you deem unacceptable.

Child molestation isn't a crime of the libido, its a crime of the personality of the criminal and that part isn't particularly influenced by gender hormones.


There are many inappropriately affectionate things that would royally mess up a child that do not involve genitals 

Quote:

You worrying about being called a child molester for helping kids
and using that as a justification not to
reminds me an awful lot about men who don't want to work around/talk to women for fear of being labeled a sexual predator
do you personally feel this to be consistent, or do you feel that the ramifications of child abuse carry different weight?

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Quote:

you objected to my position, one that recognizes that people who have been victimized still have the capactiy to go on and do great things,
and provided your example of two women you remember for being victims, because it gave you an opportunity to insert victims into your narrative

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Quote:

the child they molested will be stuck living a fundamentally altered life for the rest of their time on earth as a result of the molester's actions, whether or not they ultimately resort to suicide as a result of trauma

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Quote:

Because a jaywalker harms no one bar the flow of traffic and potential endagenerment to their own person
while a child rapist harms the most vulnerable demographic in society with the least capacity to protect themselves

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Quote:

you responded to my personal position that physical castration as a parole condition instead of chemical castration
was like giving no trial, no jury, and a shot in the street

you decided to introduce a nutso position,
and, as such, have been personally countering with nutso position

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Asante said:

...
Male virility doesnt equate to rape though. Rape is a violent offense. Let me ask you, suppose you had children. Would you feel safe about them being around a convicted child sex offender who has 100% of his testosterone blocked?
I don't think you would.
...

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Asante said:

...
Just like with the Lysine dinos of Jurassic Park, with libidoless sex offenders, "nature will find a way". They will find things to do with your child that you deem unacceptable.
...

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Asante said:

...
Child molestation isn't a crime of the libido, its a crime of the personality of the criminal and that part isn't particularly influenced by gender hormones.
...

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Asante said:

...
There are many inappropriately affectionate things that would royally mess up a child that do not involve genitals 

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Tantrika said:

Did not mean "big man" as in morally either
just recognition that you must be physically enormous to feel so insecure about your size
most big men find it as a source of confidence; tall women are the ones that typically feel insecure over large stature

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America has a 30% obesity rate, what could he mean about feeling insecure about being big?

Fat women are typically insecure about their size, maybe big men might be too?

Asante said:

America has a 30% obesity rate, what could he mean about feeling insecure about being big?

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Kryptos said:

Quote:

You worrying about being called a child molester for helping kids
and using that as a justification not to
reminds me an awful lot about men who don't want to work around/talk to women for fear of being labeled a sexual predator
do you personally feel this to be consistent, or do you feel that the ramifications of child abuse carry different weight?

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I think accusations of child abuse carry extra weight.

Me working with a woman/being near women does not immediately lead to assumptions of impropriety the same way that me being in proximity of a child does. I had this experience with my little sister when I took her to the park once a decade and a half ago (~14 year age gap), where we were playing and then all of the sudden there were three women surrounding me asking me very probing questions in that fake pleasant voice. I do not wish to ever repeat this experience, so I just avoid interactions with unattended children. If there are parents nearby? Sure, though I do not particularly like children. Unattended? Hell no. I'm sure this happens to dads with their own children, by the way. I just haven't had that experience.

This is entirely a social paranoia thing, by the way. This is the result of stranger danger. People now assume that every stranger is a danger, and people get irrationally protective of their kids. This is a bad combination and one I want no part of.

People also feel the need to be, as you say multiple times, "protective of the most vulnerable". In modern society, where the woman is generally seen as the one who deals with children, this leads to men interacting with children to be seen differently. And other women enforce this rule, by questioning men with children. "Where's the mom? not here? hmm..."

Such a social structure does not exist for me interacting with other adults, regardless of gender. It is specifically the adult/child interaction that leads to this.

...

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Kryptos said:

...

Quote:

you objected to my position, one that recognizes that people who have been victimized still have the capactiy to go on and do great things,
and provided your example of two women you remember for being victims, because it gave you an opportunity to insert victims into your narrative

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Quote:

the child they molested will be stuck living a fundamentally altered life for the rest of their time on earth as a result of the molester's actions, whether or not they ultimately resort to suicide as a result of trauma

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Well, they're damaged goods, though, right? So maybe they do great things, but they're still damaged goods.
...

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Kryptos said:

...

Quote:

you responded to my personal position that physical castration as a parole condition instead of chemical castration
was like giving no trial, no jury, and a shot in the street

you decided to introduce a nutso position,
and, as such, have been personally countering with nutso position

---

My original point was that taking such permanent action implies that people cannot ever change. Just like with the death penalty. So I am against such actions, because I believe that every individual person has a capacity for growth and improvement. ...

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this is where we start to differ then
am in favour of the death penalty
and also in favour of Texas having Castle Doctrine
while feeling uncomfortable with the knowledge that shooting an armed intruder in my home in Canada could instead result in them suing me for violent actions made in self and home defense


have an uncle who used to be RCMP,
he said if I ever have to shoot someone invading my home, make sure to shoot to kill
so they can't come after me for injuries

Kryptos said:

...I proposed the alternative of social support, and for those without social networks, creation of those networks. Like an AA thing, but for child molesters. Instead of talking about not drinking, they talk about not molesting children. I think that's a better solution than effectively making them permanent human trash in the eyes of everyone. I also think it is better for the health of society, because unless you take that final step of just killing them, there is a good chance that they will act in an antisocial manner again if they are excluded from society. This applies to all crime.

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and respect that you offer such a position,
but do not find it to be an appealing idea

similarly, we may never see eye-to-eye on some of these affairs
for example, personally feel that drawings of children in sexual circumstances are still roughly the degree of danger to society as children made to appear in pornographic photos and videos
because it facillitates a social structure where strange indviduals can find an outlet for twisted energies that do not deserve any sort of outlet

some people disagree with me as art is a matter of freedom of expression and they liken my proposal to crack down on such things as furthering steps towards thought crimes

so personally simply move away from supporting artists who publish any work involving such

Also, as an aside
my angers are running high with regards to child abuse
as someone whom I had considered a friend in high school
was recently caught for child pornography,
and I detest myself for not picking up on him being a sick individual and failing in recognizing the need and finding a way to report him earlier