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 MagicMush123
moon person
Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 5,153
Loc: Chinada 
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 Hong Kong  1
#26048373 - 06/12/19 03:03 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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 ReposadoXochipilli
Here, there, inbetween
Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 7,501
Loc: Sand and sunshine
Last seen: 8 days, 11 hours
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Sounds like they know what's coming and are fighting it the only way they know how. I wouldn't want to be sent to China for their justice system.
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ballsalsa 
Universally Loathed and Reviled
Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,173
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Hong Kong is fucked. Anyone paying attention should have seen this coming 20 years ago.
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Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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koods
Ribbit
Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,910
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 1 hour, 32 minutes
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I think they should change the name. “Hong Kong” sounds pretty racist. Also what ^ he said.
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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MagicMush123
moon person
Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 5,153
Loc: Chinada
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Hong Kong is fucked. Anyone paying attention should have seen this coming 20 years ago.
My girls from Taiwan so we have really been following this. The situation is completely fucked and yea, they should have seen it coming. My girls even thinking of traveling back to Taiwan during election time just to vote against the pro China party thats been gaining traction. Sure hope that this doesn't develop into another Tiananmen square.
Does anyone think that china will back off from these protests? I feel that China wouldn't want to look weak by backing down, and Hong Kong might be doomed
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yagayaga
Stranger
Registered: 06/13/19
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LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs
Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 69,940
Loc: The Inexpressible... 
Last seen: 11 hours, 9 minutes
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Thats Communism for ya! Trying to taks the rights away fron the people using Big Government. Its a sad reality. Hopefully theres a positive ending to all this madness. Only time will tell......
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LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs
Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 69,940
Loc: The Inexpressible...
Last seen: 11 hours, 9 minutes
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Well it looks like Hong Kongs Airport is slipping into Chaos from all the protestors trying to "spread the Truth" about whats going on with the Chinese Government. And flights inbound are being cancelled. Did not see that coming.
Sounds like the Chinese government is trying to cover up whats going on, to keep people in the dark. Its Good vs Evil, Exposure vs Suppression. Democracy vs Communism. Who will Win the Fight?
Stay tuned....
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XUL
OTD Janitor
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 28,261
Loc: America
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
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Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said:
Thats Communism for ya! Trying to taks the rights away fron the people using Big Government. Its a sad reality. Hopefully theres a positive ending to all this madness. Only time will tell......
But most leftists don't believe China is communist. That would ruin their narrative.
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TRUMP 2020
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Morel Guy
Stranger
Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 15,577
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: XUL] 1
#26135341 - 08/14/19 11:04 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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If you and Queer man weren't so full of shit, maybe you'd get somewhere in an actual intelligent discussion.
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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"
In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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XUL
OTD Janitor
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 28,261
Loc: America
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
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Can you answer?
Is China communist?
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TRUMP 2020
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Morel Guy
Stranger
Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 15,577
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: XUL]
#26135371 - 08/14/19 11:17 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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See that's what I mean by being full of shit saying stupid things, asking stupid questions.
Nobody here is defending China.
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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"
In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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koods
Ribbit
Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,910
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 1 hour, 32 minutes
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: XUL] 1
#26135511 - 08/14/19 12:45 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
XUL said:
Can you answer?
Is China communist?
There are tons of private businesses in China. 60% of the country’s GDP is from non-government sources. So, you tell me is that really communism? They say they are communist but they certainly no longer rely on communism as an economic theory
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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koods
Ribbit
Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,910
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 1 hour, 32 minutes
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: koods]
#26135521 - 08/14/19 12:47 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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I’m so glad we have a president who hasn’t squandered all the leverage this country has over China
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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 christopera
Stranger
Registered: 10/13/17
Posts: 14,455
Last seen: 24 seconds
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: koods] 1
#26135569 - 08/14/19 01:19 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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I actually do business with the Chinese government because I purchase certain products that state owned factories produce. For a bunch of commies they sure know how capitalism works.
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Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.
A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.
Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things
I’m sorry it had to be me.
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koods
Ribbit
Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,910
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 1 hour, 32 minutes
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Budgeting must be a nightmare. I feel like the fact that trump can’t make up his mind on tariffs is harder than the tariffs themselves and probably does more damage because businesses are putting off making long term decisions.
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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XUL
OTD Janitor
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 28,261
Loc: America
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
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Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said:
Thats Communism for ya! Trying to taks the rights away fron the people using Big Government. Its a sad reality. Hopefully theres a positive ending to all this madness. Only time will tell......
According to Koods and Chris you have no idea what communism is.
I think they (China) are commies btw.
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TRUMP 2020
Edited by XUL (08/14/19 01:29 PM)
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christopera
Stranger
Registered: 10/13/17
Posts: 14,455
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: koods]
#26135609 - 08/14/19 01:35 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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My tooling costs got beat up by the tariffs. I’ve slipped through the cracks otherwise.
I try my best to revise estimates and purchase far enough out that at a minimum I know what my pricing will be for a few months, even if that means potentially losing my ass should the tariffs disappear (seems unlikely with retard in office).
My international business has totally disappeared though, and that hurts. I can’t compete outside of North America. Previously I regularly shipped to 14 countries.
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Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.
A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.
Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things
I’m sorry it had to be me.
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christopera
Stranger
Registered: 10/13/17
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: XUL] 2
#26135618 - 08/14/19 01:41 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
XUL said:
Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said:
Thats Communism for ya! Trying to taks the rights away fron the people using Big Government. Its a sad reality. Hopefully theres a positive ending to all this madness. Only time will tell......
According to Koods and Chris you have no idea what communism is.
I think they (China) are commies btw.
The US government owns various means of production. Some also collect revenue from outside sources. Awfully commie of them.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-owned_enterprises_of_the_United_States
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Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.
A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.
Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things
I’m sorry it had to be me.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 7 months, 6 days
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Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said:
Well it looks like Hong Kongs Airport is slipping into Chaos from all the protestors trying to "spread the Truth" about whats going on with the Chinese Government.
What is "the truth"? What exactly is going on in China?
My understanding is that the demonstrations began after a bill was proposed that would allow criminal suspects from Hong Kong to be transferred to mainland China for prosecution. But that bill got shelved after the demonstrations began. So what exactly is going on?
Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said:
And flights inbound are being cancelled. Did not see that coming.
That was the result of thousands of Hong Kong demonstrators trashing their own airport.
Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said:
Sounds like the Chinese government is trying to cover up whats going on, to keep people in the dark.
And what is going on?
Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said:
Its Good vs Evil, Exposure vs Suppression. Democracy vs Communism. Who will Win the Fight?
No, it's Britain not being happy with their decision to give Hong Kong back to China and working with the US to stage another coup.
Democracy you say? Hong Kong had 150 years under British rule, where they never had elections or a local government because they were ruled directly from London.
Let's learn from RussiaGate that important questions need to be asked and answered (or fill me in on what I'm missing if I'm reading the wrong news).
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Brian Jones
Club 27
Registered: 12/18/12
Posts: 12,426
Loc: attending Snake Church
Last seen: 3 days, 6 hours
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: koods]
#26137284 - 08/15/19 03:12 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
XUL said:
Can you answer?
Is China communist?
There are tons of private businesses in China. 60% of the country’s GDP is from non-government sources. So, you tell me is that really communism? They say they are communist but they certainly no longer rely on communism as an economic theory
If this is correct then their public/private ratio is nearly identical to ours, different by only a couple percent.
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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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testtesttest
Stranger
Registered: 07/13/19
Posts: 31
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said:
Democracy you say? Hong Kong had 150 years under British rule, where they never had elections or a local government because they were ruled directly from London.
Right, but it's possible to support neither model and say that HK should have democracy, as many other places do.
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
Registered: 03/16/17
Posts: 4,180
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Hong Kong is fucked. Anyone paying attention should have seen this coming 20 years ago.
Just like how anybody who isn't a total retard should have divined the current state of affairs in the US back in 1996?
FYI, Chen Village and Factory Girls are pretty good books.
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LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs
Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 69,940
Loc: The Inexpressible...
Last seen: 11 hours, 9 minutes
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Quote:
testtesttest said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Democracy you say? Hong Kong had 150 years under British rule, where they never had elections or a local government because they were ruled directly from London.
Right, but it's possible to support neither model and say that HK should have democracy, as many other places do.
Fixed the quote, Falcon said that. Not sure what the Chinese protesters are trying to tell The World, wish I knew. Perhaps that the Chinese government is oppressive and will not submit to the protestors rioting  I have no clue.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
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Last seen: 7 months, 6 days
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Why are Britain and the U.S. now concerned about democracy in Hong Kong???
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 7 months, 6 days
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Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said:
Not sure what the Chinese protesters are trying to tell The World, wish I knew. Perhaps that the Chinese government is oppressive and will not submit to the protestors rioting I have no clue.
Nor do I; that's why I'm asking. Based on the West's history, I'm guessing we are fueling the protests to try and stop Hong Kong's return to China.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs
Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 69,940
Loc: The Inexpressible...
Last seen: 11 hours, 9 minutes
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After a little research, this is what I found:
Quote:
Protesters want to see the controversial extradition bill, which has been suspended, completely withdrawn, and are also seeking direct election of the city's leader and an investigation into alleged police brutality.
From here: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/hong-kong-protesters-rally-at-airport-to-share-the-truth/ar-AAFz9gx
So those are the three main issues it seems. Not sure what the extradition bill is about, the democracy election of a city leader is pretty straight-forward, curious about the police brutality claim, which is common for communist countries.
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Skellies
Registered: 06/02/15
Posts: 823
Loc: The Dream
Last seen: 5 days, 10 hours
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Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said:
Fixed the quote, Falcon said that. Not sure what the Chinese protesters are trying to tell The World, wish I knew. Perhaps that the Chinese government is oppressive and will not submit to the protestors rioting I have no clue.
The extradition bill was tabled but the protestors want it completely withdrawn. The heavy handed police response has them fearing for the civil liberties granted under the “one county two systems” policy.
There are other goals too, like the resignation of Carrie Lam and an independent inquiry into police conduct.
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
Registered: 03/16/17
Posts: 4,180
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said:
So those are the three main issues it seems. Not sure what the extradition bill is about, the democracy election of a city leader is pretty straight-forward, curious about the police brutality claim, which is common for communist countries.
Basically, the CCP (at least the people running the Central Government versus the provincial ones) has always been paranoid about their ability to actually remain in control of the country and they let that particular neurosis drive most of their decision making. They've actually had trouble with provinces nearly spinning off into sovereign states recently (i.e. within the past decade or so) specifically because they saw the Central Government as being incompetent, and that coupled with the Arab Spring very much scared the shit out of them. Long story short, they more or less decided to roll things back to the 1960s and they're terrified that surrendering that particular lot of autonomy (i.e. the extradition bill) to what, at best, amounts to a provincial government will be the beginning of the end to the system that's made them into rich assholes. And I wouldn't be too shocked if Xi Jingping really just wanted to be a real dictator either.
For everything that can be said about China, it's a large country that's mostly full of rednecks who don't like to be told what to do. And it's got something like a 2,000 year long tradition of regime change (at the least).
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
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Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said:
After a little research, this is what I found:
Quote:
Protesters want to see the controversial extradition bill, which has been suspended, completely withdrawn, and are also seeking direct election of the city's leader and an investigation into alleged police brutality.
From here: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/hong-kong-protesters-rally-at-airport-to-share-the-truth/ar-AAFz9gx
So those are the three main issues it seems. Not sure what the extradition bill is about, the democracy election of a city leader is pretty straight-forward, curious about the police brutality claim, which is common for communist countries.
The extradition bill is about China being allowed to prosecute its criminals. If you think Hong Kong's criminals are above the law, then so be it.
Direct election of the city's leader is a good thing, and China already had mapped out a plan for that.
The police brutality claim is common when police try to stop people from terrorizing their airports and Government buildings while being pelted with rocks.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs
Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 69,940
Loc: The Inexpressible...
Last seen: 11 hours, 9 minutes
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Ok, so on the police brutality. What if it goes back before the rioting? What if its police brutality in general?
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled
Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,173
Loc: Foreign Lands
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The brits were stupid to give hong kong back if they wanted it to remain seperate from the mainland. I just dont see how anyone thought anything would happen other than exactly what is happening. One country 2 systems was always doomed and anyone who thought the deal wouldnt be altered has never watched episode V
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Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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Brian Jones
Club 27
Registered: 12/18/12
Posts: 12,426
Loc: attending Snake Church
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What do you think would have happened if Britain didn't give it back when the lease expired?
Britain's not a superpower and China isn't Argentina.
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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled
Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,173
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Im not even speculating on that. Im just saying that this was inevitable as soon as the hand over happened. Not the protests, the circumstances leading to them
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 7 months, 6 days
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Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said:
Ok, so on the police brutality. What if it goes back before the rioting? What if its police brutality in general?
Is it any worse than police brutality in the US?
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Skellies
Registered: 06/02/15
Posts: 823
Loc: The Dream
Last seen: 5 days, 10 hours
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The extradition bill is about China being allowed to prosecute its criminals. If you think Hong Kong's criminals are above the law, then so be it.
In China people don’t have basic civil rights so people who dissent are disappeared. China has already illegally sent people to kidnap Hong Kong residents and try them in the mainland. The bill would establish an easier and legal route for that behavior going forward.
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Direct election of the city's leader is a good thing, and China already had mapped out a plan for that.
If the ccp gets to choose and disqualify people/parties from running then it’s not really a democratic election.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
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Quote:
austothehun said:
In China people don’t have basic civil rights so people who dissent are disappeared
What "basic civil rights" don't they have? I work with Chinese people all the time and I've never heard a complaint. Just wondering...
Quote:
austothehun said:
China has already illegally sent people to kidnap Hong Kong residents and try them in the mainland. The bill would establish an easier and legal route for that behavior going forward.
So you think it is "illegal" to arrest criminals and that they should be allowed to go free?
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
If the ccp gets to choose and disqualify people/parties from running then it’s not really a democratic election.
We disqualify people too (you can't run for president if you were born in another country, for example). Are we not really a democracy?
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
Registered: 03/16/17
Posts: 4,180
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
The brits were stupid to give hong kong back if they wanted it to remain seperate from the mainland. I just dont see how anyone thought anything would happen other than exactly what is happening. One country 2 systems was always doomed and anyone who thought the deal wouldnt be altered has never watched episode V
Hong Kong is physically attached to the mainland, China has had SEZs since Mao was alive and some degree of pronvincial autonomy is expected by the Chinese and by the Central Government (though, in the Central Government's fantasies, everybody just throws their support behind whatever Beijing does because harmony).
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
Registered: 03/16/17
Posts: 4,180
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Im not even speculating on that. Im just saying that this was inevitable as soon as the hand over happened. Not the protests, the circumstances leading to them
No it wasn't. That's why the sinologists were and still are all interested to see what the future holds. Nobody who's talking about how this was inevitable seems to know a damned thing about the country that didn't come out of John Dulles's book of Cold War paranoia.
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Skellies
Registered: 06/02/15
Posts: 823
Loc: The Dream
Last seen: 5 days, 10 hours
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What "basic civil rights" don't they have? I work with Chinese people all the time and I've never heard a complaint. Just wondering...
Freedoms of speech and self expression are a few. Some of my girlfriends friends have been banned from re-entering China because they were protest participants in the US.
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So you think it is "illegal" to arrest criminals and that they should be allowed to go free?
The Hong Kong and Chinese legal systems are separate entities. If I broke a Canadian law in the US and then they sent goons across the border to secretly kidnap me then it would be illegal.
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
We disqualify people too (you can't run for president if you were born in another country, for example). Are we not really a democracy?
That’s not the same level of restriction. If, for the sake of argument, the Republican Party reviewed every candidate and party in an election and could deny whoever they chose from running (as the ccp does) then I’d say it’s not democratic.
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
Registered: 03/16/17
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
No, it's Britain not being happy with their decision to give Hong Kong back to China and working with the US to stage another coup.
Staging a coup? With who? The PLA? 
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
Registered: 03/16/17
Posts: 4,180
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Quote:
austothehun said:
The Hong Kong and Chinese legal systems are separate entities. If I broke a Canadian law in the US and then they sent goons across the border to secretly kidnap me then it would be illegal.
Canada and the US are both sovereign and several as sovereign states though. There's a concern with the PRC going after Chinese citizens for violating PRC law in other countries, but the problems in Hong Kong don't even remotely amount to one sovereign state attempting to subjugate the other in any way, shape or form. In all honesty late 18th century America, leading up to the American Revolution, would be a better analogy since -- way more than taxes -- the colonists were pissed off about the fact that that people would be extradited to Britain to stand trial and were campaigning for autonomy (versus sovereignty).
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
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Quote:
austothehun said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What "basic civil rights" don't they have? I work with Chinese people all the time and I've never heard a complaint. Just wondering...
Freedoms of speech and self expression are a few. Some of my girlfriends friends have been banned from re-entering China because they were protest participants in the US.
I know a Ukrainian who was banned from entering the US because he previously did part time work here. Does that mean we don't allow him freedom of self expression?
Quote:
chibiabos said:
Quote:
austothehun said:
The Hong Kong and Chinese legal systems are separate entities. If I broke a Canadian law in the US and then they sent goons across the border to secretly kidnap me then it would be illegal.
Canada and the US are both sovereign and several as sovereign states though. The problems in Hong Kong don't even remotely amount to one sovereign state attempting to subjugate the other in any way, shape or form.
Quote:
austothehun said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
We disqualify people too (you can't run for president if you were born in another country, for example). Are we not really a democracy?
That’s not the same level of restriction. If, for the sake of argument, the Republican Party reviewed every candidate and party in an election and could deny whoever they chose from running (as the ccp does) then I’d say it’s not democratic.
Can you elaborate with an example? People who said this about Russia were found to be spreading fake news after it was looked into.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
chibiabos said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
No, it's Britain not being happy with their decision to give Hong Kong back to China and working with the US to stage another coup.
Staging a coup? With who? The PLA?
With the people of Hong Kong. As was done with the coup in Ukraine.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
Registered: 03/16/17
Posts: 4,180
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
chibiabos said:
Quote:
austothehun said:
The Hong Kong and Chinese legal systems are separate entities. If I broke a Canadian law in the US and then they sent goons across the border to secretly kidnap me then it would be illegal.
Canada and the US are both sovereign and several as sovereign states though. The problems in Hong Kong don't even remotely amount to one sovereign state attempting to subjugate the other in any way, shape or form.
That's not what I said, even if all you did was erase a third of it...
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
Registered: 03/16/17
Posts: 4,180
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
chibiabos said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
No, it's Britain not being happy with their decision to give Hong Kong back to China and working with the US to stage another coup.
Staging a coup? With who? The PLA?
With the people of Hong Kong. As was done with the coup in Ukraine.
Nobody in Hong Kong wants to overthrow the government of Hong Kong or the CCP.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 7 months, 6 days
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Quote:
chibiabos said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
chibiabos said:
Quote:
austothehun said:
The Hong Kong and Chinese legal systems are separate entities. If I broke a Canadian law in the US and then they sent goons across the border to secretly kidnap me then it would be illegal.
Canada and the US are both sovereign and several as sovereign states though. The problems in Hong Kong don't even remotely amount to one sovereign state attempting to subjugate the other in any way, shape or form.
That's not what I said, even if all you did was erase a third of it...
I quoted the parts of what you said that I agree with.
Quote:
chibiabos said:
Nobody in Hong Kong wants to overthrow the government of Hong Kong or the CCP.
So this Wikipedia article was written in jest? Nobody wants a Government that's independent from China?
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
Registered: 03/16/17
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
chibiabos said:
That's not what I said, even if all you did was erase a third of it...
I quoted the parts of what you said that I agree with.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled
Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,173
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Quote:
chibiabos said:
Hong Kong is physically attached to the mainland
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
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Okay. Do you think that Hong Kong is the same thing as Hong Kong Island, or do you think that the mainland is the same thing as the PRC?
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testtesttest
Stranger
Registered: 07/13/19
Posts: 31
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
chibiabos said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
No, it's Britain not being happy with their decision to give Hong Kong back to China and working with the US to stage another coup.
Staging a coup? With who? The PLA?
With the people of Hong Kong. As was done with the coup in Ukraine.
That isn't a coup then. It's a revolution. You're entitled to your opinion that such a revolution would be a bad thing though if you think life in the PRC is better than that under the systems of other Chinese-majority societies like Taiwan, Singapore or Hong Kong itself.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
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I didn't say whether I thought it was better or worse. I just said it appears we're trying to stir up a coup (or a revolution as you'd prefer to call it).
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs
Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 69,940
Loc: The Inexpressible...
Last seen: 11 hours, 9 minutes
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said:
Ok, so on the police brutality. What if it goes back before the rioting? What if its police brutality in general?
Is it any worse than police brutality in the US?
Good question. I mean, i could assume its worst since China is Communist but honestly i dont know.....
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled
Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,173
Loc: Foreign Lands
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I meant the second but was laughing because it seemed like you thought i meant physically separate.
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
Registered: 03/16/17
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
you thought i meant physically separate.
That's pretty much what you said, and it's pretty representative of Americans trying to talk about East Asia. It's like referring to Trump as the president of North America and then trying to play it off as a colloquialism, like that would somehow make it less ignorant.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled
Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,173
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Sorry for your confusion. We were talking about the protests going on. The protests are about separation in government, not physically separating china from hong kong. Its my fault for saying mainland i guess.
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
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I'm not confused, I'm just sick of people who have barely even bothered to check out the geography try to act like they're experts on recent Chinese history. I'm pretty sure that I've seen that "Mao killed millions of people in between 1935 and 1942" meme on this site.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled
Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,173
Loc: Foreign Lands
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So you're saying that you believed that hong kong was going to integrate seamlessly? Or that someone would have to be an "expert" in order to predict that the process would end up being tumultuous at times? You're probably right. No 12yo could have predicted this 20 years ago
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
Registered: 03/16/17
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No on both counts. Sinology is a branch of history. Historians don't issue forecasts. They observe and (in this case) talk to people who can help them understand things in a more well developed context.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled
Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,173
Loc: Foreign Lands
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So then this turn of events was also obvious to you? If so, then what, exactly, is your bitch? Enlighten us with regard to your more well developed context.
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
So then this turn of events was also obvious to you?
...No. And I specifically put down anybody who claims that they possessed some faculty to predict current events in Hong Kong, on more than one occasion.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled
Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,173
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Its hard to predict unrest as a result of changes in political systems?
Requires precognition or some other supernatural ability?
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
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Sure. Whatever. 
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled
Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,173
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Exactly. It isnt hard to predict. Almost inevitable, really. The only real questions are timetable and degree. Chinese, european, purple people eater, doesnt much make a difference.
Edit: i mean , that was always the point. I dont know how you came to the conclusion that i was claiming super-powers
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Edited by ballsalsa (08/17/19 02:34 PM)
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chibiabos
Cosmic Pond Scum
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Exactly. It isnt hard to predict. Almost inevitable, really. The only real questions are timetable and degree. Chinese, european, purple people eater, doesnt much make a difference.
Edit: i mean , that was always the point. I dont know how you came to the conclusion that i was claiming super-powers
So, just ignore the culture and the history of a nation and indulge in lazy fatalist bullshit while trying to spin some errant, largely uninformed opinions about aforementioned nation into some sort of a predictive faculty for the course of human events?
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled
Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,173
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Whatever gets the job done
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Skellies
Registered: 06/02/15
Posts: 823
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Last seen: 5 days, 10 hours
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I know a Ukrainian who was banned from entering the US because he previously did part time work here. Does that mean we don't allow him freedom of self expression?
I’d need to know more about his situation (what visa he had, if he was authorized to work here, ect.) but I’m talking about the ability to speak your mind in your own country without persecution or censorship. Being denied entry to another country due to work related reasons is another issue.
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Can you elaborate with an example? People who said this about Russia were found to be spreading fake news after it was looked into.
What Hong Kong was offered in 2017 is one. The CCP offered to allow an election for the chief position, but they would pre screen the candidates.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
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Quote:
austothehun said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I know a Ukrainian who was banned from entering the US because he previously did part time work here. Does that mean we don't allow him freedom of self expression?
I’d need to know more about his situation (what visa he had, if he was authorized to work here, ect.) but I’m talking about the ability to speak your mind in your own country without persecution or censorship. Being denied entry to another country due to work related reasons is another issue.
He was a Ukrainian citizen who received an American tourist visa, and was denied entry on his way over after he already paid for his tickets.
What about the person you knew? What did she protest and how did the Chinese Government find out about it?
Quote:
austothehun said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Can you elaborate with an example? People who said this about Russia were found to be spreading fake news after it was looked into.
What Hong Kong was offered in 2017 is one. The CCP offered to allow an election for the chief position, but they would pre screen the candidates.
What are they prescreening for? To ensure they're not groomed in the United States to bring about regime change like Juan Guaidó in Venezuela and so many other leaders around the world?
--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Skellies
Registered: 06/02/15
Posts: 823
Loc: The Dream
Last seen: 5 days, 10 hours
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What about the person you knew? What did she protest and how did the Chinese Government find out about it?
It was regarding human rights abuses in Tibet. Photos of the event, with her in them, were posted on the internet and they banned a lot of people there.
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What are they prescreening for? To ensure they're not groomed in the United States to bring about regime change like Juan Guaidó in Venezuela and so many other leaders around the world?
It’s for their ideological/political persuasion so the party can remain in power. If people vote for a new regime then it would be democratic anyways so I don’t see how that’s relevant.
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nooneman
Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,700
Loc: Utah
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I hope they succeed in turning china into a democracy, and I wish them all the best.
They'll probably be killed.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
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Quote:
austothehun said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What are they prescreening for? To ensure they're not groomed in the United States to bring about regime change like Juan Guaidó in Venezuela and so many other leaders around the world?
It’s for their ideological/political persuasion so the party can remain in power. If people vote for a new regime then it would be democratic anyways so I don’t see how that’s relevant.
Guaidó was never elected. He declared himself leader of Venezuela and the US high-fived him and told the rest of the world he's their man.
Then people like koods try to tell everyone that voting isn't a democracy if you don't vote the way the US wants. The same thing happened in Ukraine.
--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
Ribbit
Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,910
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
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Still calling sham elections democratic I see
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: koods]
#26142156 - 08/18/19 09:55 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Still make believing elections you don't like the results of are 'sham' I see.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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China upset with Canadian meddling
Quote:
China's embassy in Ottawa told Canada on Sunday to stop meddling in Hong Kong affairs a day after the country issued a joint statement with the European Union in defence of the "fundamental right of assembly" for Hong Kong citizens.
Hundreds of thousands of anti-government protesters rallied peacefully in Hong Kong on Sunday in the 11th week of what have been often violent demonstrations in the Asian financial hub.
On the eve of Sunday's rally, Canadian Foreign Minister Chrystia Freeland and EU foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini said in a statement: "Fundamental freedoms, including the right of peaceful assembly ... must continue to be upheld."
"It is crucial that restraint be exercised, violence rejected and urgent steps taken to de-escalate the situation," the pair wrote. The statement did not explicitly assign blame to either the government or the protesters.
"Engagement in a process of broad-based and inclusive dialogue, involving all key stakeholders, is essential," the statement said, noting that both Canada and the EU support Hong Kong's "high degree of autonomy" within China, as well as its residents' right to peaceful assembly.
Quote:
The Chinese Embassy said in a statement on its website that Canada should "immediately stop meddling in Hong Kong affairs and China's internal affairs."
"Under the current situation, the Canadian side should be cautious on its words and deeds regarding the Hong Kong related issue," the statement from an unnamed spokesperson for the Chinese Embassy in Canada said.
"The relevant protests and demonstrations in Hong Kong have already deteriorated and evolved into extreme violence. In face of such severe violence and offences, no government with a sense of responsibility would sit idly by," the statement said.
Canada's foreign ministry had no immediate response. Canada has about 300,000 citizens living in Hong Kong, the ministry has said.
Canada has been caught up in a diplomatic dispute with China since Canada's detention of Huawei Technologies Co Ltd Chief Financial Officer Meng Wanzhou on a U.S. warrant in December.
Shortly after Meng's arrest in Vancouver, China detained two Canadian men, who have yet to be released. China has also blocked imports of some Canadian commodities.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/china-canada-hong-kong-embassy-meddling-1.5251663
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MagicMush123
moon person
Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 5,153
Loc: Chinada
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
austothehun said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What are they prescreening for? To ensure they're not groomed in the United States to bring about regime change like Juan Guaidó in Venezuela and so many other leaders around the world?
It’s for their ideological/political persuasion so the party can remain in power. If people vote for a new regime then it would be democratic anyways so I don’t see how that’s relevant.
Guaidó was never elected. He declared himself leader of Venezuela and the US high-fived him and told the rest of the world he's their man.
Then people like koods try to tell everyone that voting isn't a democracy if you don't vote the way the US wants. The same thing happened in Ukraine.
Its still so amusing how you still think that you know more about Venezuela than real Venezuelans 
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 7 months, 6 days
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Quote:
MagicMush123 said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Guaidó was never elected. He declared himself leader of Venezuela and the US high-fived him and told the rest of the world he's their man.
Then people like koods try to tell everyone that voting isn't a democracy if you don't vote the way the US wants. The same thing happened in Ukraine.
Its still so amusing how you still think that you know more about Venezuela than real Venezuelans
I think you meant to say you think it's amusing how I think I know more than US Government propaganda.
I know what most Venezuelans think. Please watch from 25:30 - 34:00 if you want to know what happened.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs
Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 69,940
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Last seen: 11 hours, 9 minutes
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China is going after Canada too? Damn.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 7 months, 6 days
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Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said:
China is going after Canada too? Damn.
I read the opposite - that Canada is meddling. 
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (08/19/19 08:08 PM)
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Skellies
Registered: 06/02/15
Posts: 823
Loc: The Dream
Last seen: 5 days, 10 hours
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
austothehun said:
It’s for their ideological/political persuasion so the party can remain in power. If people vote for a new regime then it would be democratic anyways so I don’t see how that’s relevant.
Guaidó was never elected. He declared himself leader of Venezuela and the US high-fived him and told the rest of the world he's their man.
Then people like koods try to tell everyone that voting isn't a democracy if you don't vote the way the US wants. The same thing happened in Ukraine.
I was referring to Hong Kong. The party wants to maintain control so candidates must be screened for their loyalty, opposed to an actual democracy.
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MagicMush123
moon person
Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 5,153
Loc: Chinada
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
MagicMush123 said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Guaidó was never elected. He declared himself leader of Venezuela and the US high-fived him and told the rest of the world he's their man.
Then people like koods try to tell everyone that voting isn't a democracy if you don't vote the way the US wants. The same thing happened in Ukraine.
Its still so amusing how you still think that you know more about Venezuela than real Venezuelans
I think you meant to say you think it's amusing how I think I know more than US Government propaganda.
I know what most Venezuelans think. Please watch from 25:30 - 34:00 if you want to know what happened.
Funny how you literally get your information from propaganda outlets, yet my close friends from Venezuela and tells me all the horrors of living there. But this threads about hong kong the oppressive Chinese government so lets talk about that
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
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Quote:
MagicMush123 said:
Funny how you literally get your information from propaganda outlets
You think so? Well then let's analyze this together to find out who's right. Tell me one thing from the video I posted that you believe is false and we'll investigate together whether it is or not.
Quote:
MagicMush123 said:
...my close friends from Venezuela and tells me all the horrors of living there.
I KNOW it's horrible living over there. US economic sanctions were directly responsible for the deaths of at least 40,000 people per a CEPR report.
Economic Sanctions as Collective Punishment: The Case of Venezuela
Quote:
Executive Summary
This paper looks at some of the most important impacts of the economic sanctions imposed on Venezuela by the US government since August of 2017. It finds that most of the impact of these sanctions has not been on the government but on the civilian population.
The sanctions reduced the public’s caloric intake, increased disease and mortality (for both adults and infants), and displaced millions of Venezuelans who fled the country as a result of the worsening economic depression and hyperinflation. They exacerbated Venezuela’s economic crisis and made it nearly impossible to stabilize the economy, contributing further to excess deaths. All of these impacts disproportionately harmed the poorest and most vulnerable Venezuelans.
We find that the sanctions have inflicted, and increasingly inflict, very serious harm to human life and health, including an estimated more than 40,000 deaths from 2017–2018; and that these sanctions would fit the definition of collective punishment of the civilian population as described in both the Geneva and Hague international conventions, to which the US is a signatory. They are also illegal under international law and treaties which the US has signed, and would appear to violate US law as well.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 7 months, 6 days
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
MagicMush123 said:
Funny how you literally get your information from propaganda outlets
You think so? Well then let's analyze this together to find out who's right. Tell me one thing from the video I posted that you believe is false and we'll investigate together whether it is or not.
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
MagicMush123 said:
...my close friends from Venezuela and tells me all the horrors of living there.
I KNOW it's horrible living over there. US economic sanctions were directly responsible for the deaths of at least 40,000 people per a CEPR report.
***CRICKETS***
Too bad. I was looking forward to this discussion.
The US Government will always oppose Socialist/Communist countries at any cost to ensure one never succeeds.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
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Posts: 32,557
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Back to Hong Kong...
West’s news dominated by Hong Kong while Yellow Vests largely ignored – Pilger
Quote:
“The news is dominated by Hong Kong, and yet 29 miles from England is France and this extraordinary rebellion of the ‘yellow jackets’ that has produced an equally extraordinary violence from the state and has been virtually ignored” - Pilger
The Yellow West movement, which got its name after the high-visibility jackets worn by the demonstrators, kicked off in November over a proposed hike in fuel taxes, which was later dropped. Facing a harsh response, demonstrations continued over a wider discontent with Macron’s pro-business agenda, decline in living standards and growing inequality.
In Hong Kong large-scale protests erupted in late March over a proposed law that would have allowed criminal suspects to be handed over to the mainland. Although the law has since been suspended, the protests have only gained momentum, spiraling into fierce clashes with police.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,815
Loc: 'Merica
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<3 John Pilger. If you haven’t already, definitely check out hismany documentaries, they’re all on YouTube now I think.
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MagicMush123
moon person
Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 5,153
Loc: Chinada
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
MagicMush123 said:
Funny how you literally get your information from propaganda outlets
You think so? Well then let's analyze this together to find out who's right. Tell me one thing from the video I posted that you believe is false and we'll investigate together whether it is or not.
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
MagicMush123 said:
...my close friends from Venezuela and tells me all the horrors of living there.
I KNOW it's horrible living over there. US economic sanctions were directly responsible for the deaths of at least 40,000 people per a CEPR report.
***CRICKETS***
Too bad. I was looking forward to this discussion.
The US Government will always oppose Socialist/Communist countries at any cost to ensure one never succeeds.
So whats your point? The sanctions may or may not have been justified, but that didn't turn Maduro a corrupt peice of shit. Like i said, if you want to know what goes on in Venezuela, go talk and make a friends with a Venezuelan. You're reading about somebody's narrative and bias towards the situation. You are intentionally reading about Venezuela to find the us guilty because that's the narrative that you like to believe, because you dont like the us. You like Russia, communism, socialism etc (and apparently support china?) Go talk to a Venezuelan and they'll tell you that of course maduro has some supporters but he was basically a dictator. People dont want him in power. People are scared to openly oppose him because they'll disappear or their families will get harrassed, the votes are rigged. They dont have real democracy in Venezuela, the corruption is off the charts. He says that Venezuelans like and want guaido to be president. But i guess there's no link and this all anecdotal, so you can just ignore whatever i say and go back to your YouTube videos
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koods
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Let’s not forget party members get benefits like food vouchers. Pretty hard to stand up and speak out against someone who decides whether you eat or not.
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
MagicMush123 said:
...if you want to know what goes on in Venezuela, go talk and make a friends with a Venezuelan.
That's exactly what the people on Empire Files do. They visit Venezuela to see what's really going on. Just like I went to Crimea to see what really went on there, and learned that the vast majority of Crimeans wholeheartedly support Russia.
Quote:
MagicMush123 said:
You're reading about somebody's narrative and bias towards the situation. You are intentionally reading about Venezuela to find the us guilty because that's the narrative that you like to believe, because you dont like the us. You like Russia, communism, socialism etc (and apparently support china?)
Do you think the US sanctions against Venezuala are fake? Do you think Guaidó actually won an election in Venezuela? Do you think the US will give a socialist/communist Government a chance to succeed (where has it ever happened)?
Quote:
MagicMush123 said:
Go talk to a Venezuelan and they'll tell you that of course maduro has some supporters but he was basically a dictator. People dont want him in power. People are scared to openly oppose him because they'll disappear or their families will get harrassed, the votes are rigged. They dont have real democracy in Venezuela, the corruption is off the charts. He says that Venezuelans like and want guaido to be president. But i guess there's no link and this all anecdotal, so you can just ignore whatever i say and go back to your YouTube videos
You're right, I prefer real evidence to anecdotal evidence.
I told you that Guaidó was never elected, and you replied that I believe in propaganda. Can you link to an election where Guaidó won? I can certainly link to an article saying he was never elected:
https://thegrayzone.com/2019/05/06/cnn-venezuela-fake-news-guaido-elected/
Quote:
CNN journalists produced an article falsely claiming US-appointed Venezuelan coup leader Juan Guaidó was elected, before quietly issuing a misleading correction.
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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (08/21/19 05:25 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: koods]
#26146559 - 08/21/19 03:43 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said:
Let’s not forget party members get benefits like food vouchers. Pretty hard to stand up and speak out against someone who decides whether you eat or not.
Let's see the evidence from our reigning king of make believe...
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: koods]
#26147124 - 08/21/19 10:12 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
koods said:
Let’s not forget party members get benefits like food vouchers. Pretty hard to stand up and speak out against someone who decides whether you eat or not.
Let's see the evidence from our reigning king of make believe...
***CRICKETS***
Your claim appears to be make believe.
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JHOVA
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The US had a historic temporary alliance with the USSR during ww2. Following this war the us had a baby boom and in participating in the war destroyed Europe and Japan. Subsequently we helped rebuild those countries and had an industrial boom. It was always an economic calculation.
The USSR expanded over most of Europe at the behest of the US.
Russian Jews did " get a chance to succeed". They failed. I read the gulag archpeligo by
alexander solzhenitsyn. It was a brutal terrible system of socialism. Women, ex soldiers behind enemy lines, priests and counter revolutionaries were captured in millions and sent to work camps. Tortured. All for the same impossible marxist ideals of equality.
Socialism has a unique propensity for genocide.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA] 1
#26149066 - 08/23/19 07:27 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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The only reason the Marshall plan existed is because much of Europe was primed for communist revolution. That’s why operation gladio happened as well.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26149161 - 08/23/19 08:45 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
Socialism has a unique propensity for genocide.
I think you meant Stalin had a unique propensity for genocide. Where was the genocide and the gulags post Stalin?
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XUL
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Also China.
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TRUMP 2020
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chibiabos
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Usually when people blame the PRC for genocide usually end up blaming it for everything that happened under Japanese occupation and the Guomindang. Either that or they're talking about The Great Leap Forward and understand absolutely none of the historical context and don't actually have any clue about what people were doing during those years and why. Ironically enough though, it's that sort of a mode of willful and defiant ignorance/incompetence that ended up causing the famine.
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
The only reason the Marshall plan existed is because much of Europe was primed for communist revolution. That’s why operation gladio happened as well.
The fact that Europe had been bombed into the dirt by thirty years of unfathomably vicious war had a lot to do with it too.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: XUL]
#26149710 - 08/23/19 03:10 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
XUL said:
Also China.
Also, you're talking about Mao, not Communism. 
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chibiabos
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
XUL said:
Also China.
Also, you're talking about Mao, not Communism.
Mao was chairman of the CCP. He was a mouthpiece and a symbol for the party way more than he really guided any of the PRC's policy. He actually complained about how little the CCP listened to him later in his life.
There's a lot of things wrong with the PRC, but you'll never understand the Chinese if you keep on begging the question (from either side) with this Cold War Era bullshit. There was never a Communist Bloc, the PRC (for good reason) never really trusted the USSR on account of the fact that Stalin just wanted to sieze former Russian colonies, Mao and the Soviet premiers - Stalin in particular - hated each other, the leaders of the CCP were inspired pretty heavily by the US founders and honestly did expect and seek to ally themselves with the US in large part to help fend off the very real threat that the USSR posed to China.
Edited by chibiabos (08/23/19 04:27 PM)
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The Ecstatic
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Quote:
chibiabos said:
Usually when people blame the PRC for genocide usually end up blaming it for everything that happened under Japanese occupation and the Guomindang. Either that or they're talking about The Great Leap Forward and understand absolutely none of the historical context and don't actually have any clue about what people were doing during those years and why. Ironically enough though, it's that sort of a mode of willful and defiant ignorance/incompetence that ended up causing the famine.
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
The only reason the Marshall plan existed is because much of Europe was primed for communist revolution. That’s why operation gladio happened as well.
The fact that Europe had been bombed into the dirt by thirty years of unfathomably vicious war had a lot to do with it too.
A lot to do with the continent being primed for communist revolution, yes.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
chibiabos said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
XUL said:
Also China.
Also, you're talking about Mao, not Communism.
Mao was chairman of the CCP. He was a mouthpiece and a symbol for the party way more than he really guided any of the PRC's policy. He actually complained about how little the CCP listened to him later in his life.
There's a lot of things wrong with the PRC, but you'll never understand the Chinese if you keep on begging the question (from either side) with this Cold War Era bullshit.
That So you're saying genocide in China continued post Mau? Well then teach me something... I'm listening.
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Tantrika
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
chibiabos said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
XUL said:
Also China.
Also, you're talking about Mao, not Communism.
Mao was chairman of the CCP. He was a mouthpiece and a symbol for the party way more than he really guided any of the PRC's policy. He actually complained about how little the CCP listened to him later in his life.
There's a lot of things wrong with the PRC, but you'll never understand the Chinese if you keep on begging the question (from either side) with this Cold War Era bullshit.
That So you're saying there was genocide in China post Mau? Go ahead and teach me something... I'm listening.
in my Modern East Asian history class in university we had to read the book Red Star Over China
one of the parts that stuck with me was that the personality cult around Mao was apparently such that at one point during a train ride he looked out the window of the coach he was riding in
said, in passing, "collectives/communes are good"
and the others around him took that as an order to collectivize the rural countryside
of course, the book was written about the Chinese Communists while they were still a guerilla movement (1937 publication year)
so not sure how much of what is in it may be reasonably taken as indicators for what would go on to take place in the Great Leap Forward
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chibiabos
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
chibiabos said:
Usually when people blame the PRC for genocide usually end up blaming it for everything that happened under Japanese occupation and the Guomindang. Either that or they're talking about The Great Leap Forward and understand absolutely none of the historical context and don't actually have any clue about what people were doing during those years and why. Ironically enough though, it's that sort of a mode of willful and defiant ignorance/incompetence that ended up causing the famine.
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
The only reason the Marshall plan existed is because much of Europe was primed for communist revolution. That’s why operation gladio happened as well.
The fact that Europe had been bombed into the dirt by thirty years of unfathomably vicious war had a lot to do with it too.
A lot to do with the continent being primed for communist revolution, yes.
The Chinese never cared about Communism. The CCP did so well after WWII because the country was utterly destroyed and the only other contender for a Chinese regime never actually bothered to run the country in the time that they were the reigning government. People mostly didn't resist the PLA because of the fact that there was no point and that whoever sat at the head of a national government in Beijing was basically irrelevant to their lives and the GMD forces didn't resist all that much because they weren't being fed or equipped unless the defected to the PLA. After beating the GMD, the CCP enjoyed pretty substantial support on account of the fact that they actually did improve the quality of life pretty substantially. It's not that Communism was so great as much as it is that life under the previous government had really been that terrible, especially after the Japanese invaded and Chiang Kai Shek basically decided to let the foreigners duke it out while he hoarded war materiel for his domestic enemies.
The Chinese have lived in China for a long time. Regime change has been how things get done there for centuries. That's why the CCP has been so paranoid for the past seventy years.
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chibiabos
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Quote:
Tantrika said:
in my Modern East Asian history class in university we had to read the book Red Star Over China
one of the parts that stuck with me was that the personality cult around Mao was apparently such that at one point during a train ride he looked out the window of the coach he was riding in
said, in passing, "collectives/communes are good"
and the others around him took that as an order to collectivize the rural countryside
of course, the book was written about the Chinese Communists while they were still a guerilla movement (1937 publication year)
so not sure how much of what is in it may be reasonably taken as indicators for what would go on to take place in the Great Leap Forward
I'd say very little and that the Hundred Flowers Movement (which seems to have started off more or less genuinely though the government freaked out when it turned out that people were giving actual criticism instead of just saying, in effect, "Great job! Keep it up!") had more to do with the Great Leap Forward. How bad things were really depended on who was in charge at a more local level. Some people just went along with an obviously asinine policy because they were afraid of losing their cushy positions and others just flat out refused to play along since they knew that nothing that the Central Government expected was realistic and didn't want to be responsible for people starving to death by encouraging them to strangle their crops. I think that the good, socialist wheat was supposed to survive being buried and severely overcrowded. Turned out that socialist wheat aws just wheat though, and it died. And people worked really hard to pretend that it wasn't happening, which of course just made everything worse.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
chibiabos said:
There's a lot of things wrong with the PRC, but you'll never understand the Chinese if you keep on begging the question (from either side) with this Cold War Era bullshit.
That So you're saying genocide in China continued post Mau? Well then teach me something... I'm listening.
***CRICKETS***
It's seems it's you who's begging the question, by assuming communist Governments necessarily commit genocide.
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JHOVA
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not necessarily just historically.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26150077 - 08/23/19 08:02 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
It's seems it's you who's begging the question, by assuming communist Governments necessarily commit genocide.
not necessarily just historically.
Then maybe you can answer the question about genocides post Stalin and post Mau.
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JHOVA
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Mao's cultural revolution was in 1958-1962 i believe. Cambodian genocide was between 1975-1979. Pol pot took direct influence from stalin and Mao.
Quote:
Ideology played an important role in the genocide. Pol Pot was influenced by Marxism and desired an entirely self-sufficient agrarian society free from all foreign influences. Stalin's work has been described as a "crucial formative influence" on Pol Pot's thought. Also heavily influential was the work of Mao Zedong, particularly his On New Democracy. In the mid-1960s, Pol Pot reformulated his ideas about Marxism–Leninism to better suit the Cambodian situation aimed to bring Cambodia back to its "mythic past" of the powerful Khmer Empire, to stop corrupting influences like foreign aid and western culture, and to restore the country to an agrarian society. Attempts to implement these goals were key factors in the ensuing genocide.[65][66] One Khmer Rouge leader said that the killings were meant for the "purification of the populace."[67]
North Korea at lot more recently
Quote:
Democratic People's Republic of Korea
Further information: Human Rights in North Korea, Prisons in North Korea, Kwalliso, and North Korean famine
According to Rummel, forced labor, executions and concentration camps were responsible for over one million deaths in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea from 1948 to 1987.[187] Others have estimated 400,000 deaths in concentration camps alone.[188] A wide range of atrocities have been committed in the camps including forced abortions, infanticide and torture. Former International Criminal Court judge Thomas Buergenthal, who was one of the UN report's authors and a child survivor of Auschwitz, told The Washington Post "that conditions in the [North] Korean prison camps are as terrible, or even worse, than those I saw and experienced in my youth in these Nazi camps and in my long professional career in the human rights field".[189] Pierre Rigoulot estimates 100,000 executions, 1.5 million deaths through concentration camps and slave labor, and 500,000 deaths from famine.[190]
Estimates based on a North Korean census suggest that 240,000 to 420,000 people died as a result of the 1990s famine and there were 600,000 to 850,000 excess deaths in North Korea from 1993 to 2008.[191] The famine, which claimed as many as one million lives, has been described as the result of the economic policies of the North Korean government[192] and deliberate "terror-starvation".[193] In 2010, Steven Rosefielde stated that the "Red Holocaust" "still persists in North Korea" as Kim Jong Il "refuses to abandon mass killing".[194]
theres more deaths under communists here if you wanna check it out. communist mass killins wiki
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The Ecstatic
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Quote:
chibiabos said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
chibiabos said:
Usually when people blame the PRC for genocide usually end up blaming it for everything that happened under Japanese occupation and the Guomindang. Either that or they're talking about The Great Leap Forward and understand absolutely none of the historical context and don't actually have any clue about what people were doing during those years and why. Ironically enough though, it's that sort of a mode of willful and defiant ignorance/incompetence that ended up causing the famine.
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
The only reason the Marshall plan existed is because much of Europe was primed for communist revolution. That’s why operation gladio happened as well.
The fact that Europe had been bombed into the dirt by thirty years of unfathomably vicious war had a lot to do with it too.
A lot to do with the continent being primed for communist revolution, yes.
The Chinese never cared about Communism. The CCP did so well after WWII because the country was utterly destroyed and the only other contender for a Chinese regime never actually bothered to run the country in the time that they were the reigning government. People mostly didn't resist the PLA because of the fact that there was no point and that whoever sat at the head of a national government in Beijing was basically irrelevant to their lives and the GMD forces didn't resist all that much because they weren't being fed or equipped unless the defected to the PLA. After beating the GMD, the CCP enjoyed pretty substantial support on account of the fact that they actually did improve the quality of life pretty substantially. It's not that Communism was so great as much as it is that life under the previous government had really been that terrible, especially after the Japanese invaded and Chiang Kai Shek basically decided to let the foreigners duke it out while he hoarded war materiel for his domestic enemies.
The Chinese have lived in China for a long time. Regime change has been how things get done there for centuries. That's why the CCP has been so paranoid for the past seventy years.
Just realized I quoted you originally by accident. When I said continent I meant Europe.
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JHOVA
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I listed Cambodia in my previous post.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26150243 - 08/23/19 10:29 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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I never claimed bad things never happened under communism. I was arguing with your statement that "Socialism has a unique propensity for genocide."
Genocide is not unique to socialism, nor does socialism have a propensity to genocide (just look at Russia and China post Stalin and Mao).
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JHOVA
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It's the deadliest ideology of the 20th century
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ballsalsa
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26150265 - 08/23/19 11:11 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yo momma is the deadliest ideology of the 20th century
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA] 1
#26150342 - 08/24/19 02:31 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
It's the deadliest ideology of the 20th century
It's not even close to the deadliest in the last 50 years.
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JHOVA
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It's 19 years into the 21 century chief.
Here I'll make this real easy for you since you are showing time difficulties the 20th century was the time period of 1901-2000 and the 21st century is from 2001-2100.
The communist death toll figures range from around 50 million to 100 million depending on which historian you ask. I'm shocked you have no fucking clue how deadly socialism and communism has been these are basic right wing talking points LMAO. Vee and Sargon of Akkad literally have hundreds of videos on communism watch any of them to get up to speed.
What's beautiful is Jewish propoganda has seeded your brain to think the only genocide committed in the 20th century was a paltry 6 million. That's rookie numbers brother.
Neoliberalism (also left wing) has been responsible for the next highest amount of deaths. Free markets at any cost.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA] 2
#26150566 - 08/24/19 08:59 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Lmao those communist death toll figures are such horseshit.
They include Soviet deaths from WW2, you know, defeating the Nazis.
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living_failure
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Lmao those communist death toll figures are such horseshit.
They include Soviet deaths from WW2, you know, defeating the Nazis.
No. they don't. any historian will put communist death toll over 50 million.
Now, you can argue that that wasn't truly communism or that communism doesn't imply authoritarianism and state executions. But historically the number of killings but self proclaimed communnist states are high.
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JHOVA
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I gave a range from 50-100 million. Ill meet you half way at the lower figure. Take your pick. Either way leftism is the deadliest ideology period of the 20th century.
If this forum wasn't so left I could compare genocide to genocdie but I think I'd get banned. All I'll say is majdanek went from 2 million dead reported by the Soviets to 80,000 today. And went from 5 gas chamber to 2 today. Makes you think why were they lying so grossly?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26150801 - 08/24/19 12:04 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
It's 19 years into the 21 century chief.
Exactly. My point is that socialism has existed without genocide. You keep pointing us back to Stalin/Mao/Pol Pot to support your claim.
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JHOVA said:
The communist death toll figures range from around 50 million to 100 million depending on which historian you ask. I'm shocked you have no fucking clue how deadly socialism and communism has been these are basic right wing talking points LMAO. Vee and Sargon of Akkad literally have hundreds of videos on communism watch any of them to get up to speed.
Yes - Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot were deadly. But that doesn't prove your point that communism necessarily deadly. Look at communist countries after those leaders.
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JHOVA said:
What's beautiful is Jewish propoganda has seeded your brain to think the only genocide committed in the 20th century was a paltry 6 million. That's rookie numbers brother.
No, I don't think that, nor can you find a post of mine where I said that. You just made that up, because make believe is how you are able to support your point.
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JHOVA said:
Neoliberalism (also left wing) has been responsible for the next highest amount of deaths. Free markets at any cost.
I've always been against neoliberalism. And it's not 'left wing'. Reagan was one of the most famous neoliberals.
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JHOVA
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stop being dumb. i didnt say its necessarily deadly. to quote myself since you arent reading i said its "just historically deadly. " then i gave you that NUMBAHs and now here we are with you hand waving the deadliest ideology of the 20th century.
The only genocide any leftist talks about is during WW2. that includes you and your post history.
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Edited by JHOVA (08/24/19 01:03 PM)
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chibiabos
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Lmao those communist death toll figures are such horseshit.
You realize that you're basically arguing with the sort of person who thinks that he's smarter than everybody else on account of the fact that he pulled straight C-'s through high school, right?
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JHOVA
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personal attacks work really well when you have no arguments.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26151530 - 08/24/19 10:00 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
stop being dumb. i didnt say its necessarily deadly. to quote myself since you arent reading i said its "just historically deadly. " then i gave you that NUMBAHs and now here we are with you hand waving the deadliest ideology of the 20th century.
I'm not arguing with your Stalin/Mao/Pol Pot numbers. I'm arguing that these were the exception and not the rule.
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Brian Jones
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Right wing capitalist authoritarian regimes in Central America, all backed by the U.S., had high death tolls per capita. And Oh Yeah, Hitler had a few people killed.
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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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JHOVA
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Can you elaborate please? I would think millions of dead imprisoned or starved would make one rethink leftist doctrine.
You don't think maybe a right wing that kills less people would be preferable?
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Brian Jones
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA] 1
#26152371 - 08/25/19 12:42 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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No I don't. The atrocities were older. Central American countries have lower populations than China, USSR and Cambodia, which is why I referred to political murders per capita. And most important the slaughter states in Central America were all regimes propped up, if not installed, by the U.S.
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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26152410 - 08/25/19 01:05 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
Can you elaborate please? I would think millions of dead imprisoned or starved would make one rethink leftist doctrine.
You don't think maybe a right wing that kills less people would be preferable?
The right wing kills WAY MORE people than communism in recent history (Brian Jones touched on this). That's what I've been trying to tell you.
Please take your head out of the sand.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA] 2
#26152436 - 08/25/19 01:31 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
personal attacks work really well when you have no arguments.
Your argument rests on a book that’s been largely discredited.
100million!
Ok maybe half!
Ok maybe it wasn’t due to leftism inherently...
You know it’s a great argument when you hedge it 3 times right off the bat
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chibiabos
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Nah, that's not why I said that. I said it because he's a wooden headed xenophobe who's yammering off bullshit about how the Nazis look like a bunch of murderous Nazi dipshits on account of Jewish propaganda.
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JHOVA
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Eh I mean with that separation of agency one could argue that Americans aren't responsible for the mistreatment of amerindians. That true fault lies in British or one could keep going back further and further.
The central Americans are manifesting their desired societies for all that is good and bad in them and they are distinct from say the US.
I'm a strong believer in peoples having personal agency.
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chibiabos
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26153700 - 08/26/19 01:26 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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What the fuck are you even responding to?
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JHOVA
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To brians last response not you.
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JHOVA
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I said for arguments sake 50 million is still the most deadly ideology of the 20th centurythough I think the death toll closer to 100. You still haven't actually provided an exact number of total dead by socialism and communism in the 20th century. Maybe you dont want to get pinned down with exact numbers?
Falcon what is the total number of people killed by right wing governments in the 20th century? How many millions?
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26153820 - 08/26/19 02:45 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Right wing authoritarians started both world wars, so...
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chibiabos
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Right wing authoritarians started both world wars, so...
No. The factors that led up to WWI had more to do with drama between memberes of an extended, dysfunctional family of inbred, European noblemen.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26154246 - 08/26/19 07:21 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
I said for arguments sake 50 million is still the most deadly ideology of the 20th centurythough I think the death toll closer to 100. You still haven't actually provided an exact number of total dead by socialism and communism in the 20th century. Maybe you dont want to get pinned down with exact numbers?
Falcon what is the total number of people killed by right wing governments in the 20th century? How many millions?
Again, you're missing the point. I'm not debating which ideology killed more people in total, I'm debating whether killing is an inherent part of communism. How many were killed by communism post Stalin/Mao/Pol Pot? How many were killed by NATO?
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JHOVA
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I am debating that point clearly. Lol. It's important to recognize it's not necessarily doctrinally fatal. Communism does have a unique history and the proponents have a propensity towards mass killings in the name of equality. There's a pattern there. Maybe you would be perfect but what about the guy waiting behind you in succession?
Isn't your caveat like saying I'm counting all the mass shootings in America but I'm excluding aLl gang related shootings and any shootings that didnt kill someone?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA] 3
#26154554 - 08/26/19 10:59 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
Communism does have a unique history and the proponents have a propensity towards mass killings in the name of equality. There's a pattern there.
I'll ask again, which leaders of the Soviet Union were mass killers after Stalin? Here is the list to choose from:
Khrushchev
Brezhnev
Andropov
Chernenko
Gorbachev
I'm not seeing a "propensity" or a "pattern".
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JHOVA
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The pattern is the death toll under Communist ideology. The significance is not from frequency but total dead under it's umbrella.
Equality is anti nature. Nature seeks balance not equality. Math problems are equal; people are not.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26157382 - 08/28/19 03:19 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
The significance is not from frequency but total dead under it's umbrella.
If only one Soviet leader killed lots of people, how can you conclude communism was at fault if there were no other brutal Soviet leaders?
Sure, you can say more people were killed by communist rulers, but you can't say communism has a unique propensity for genocide if you have nothing to back that.
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JHOVA
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Can't let a death toll get in the way of being a good comrade.
Communism ruined South Africa in so many ways. Murder capital and rape capital of the world. 13% have aids. 50% of women are raped in their life. 23% unemployment. Racial hatred and no regard for property rights has lead to 70,000 vicious white farm murders. All in the name of equality.
"ItS nOt ReAl cOmMuNiSm"
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Mycolorado
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA] 1
#26157556 - 08/28/19 05:04 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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I’m sure apartheid had nothing to do with it.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26157562 - 08/28/19 05:05 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
Can't let a death toll get in the way of being a good comrade.
We can talk about death toll, but if only one leader is deadly we can't say there is a propensity for genocide.
Quote:
JHOVA said:
Communism ruined South Africa in so many ways. Murder capital and rape capital of the world. 13% have aids. 50% of women are raped in their life. 23% unemployment. Racial hatred and no regard for property rights has lead to 70,000 vicious white farm murders. All in the name of equality.
"ItS nOt ReAl cOmMuNiSm"
That's the first I've heard South Africa is communist. Got a link to support that claim?
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chibiabos
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Kibbutzim seem to do pretty well on account of their Marxist tendencies. And they even embrace multiculturalism.
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JHOVA
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Quote:
Mycolorado said:
I’m sure apartheid had nothing to do with it.
the state got much worse AFTER apartheid. many SA's wish the white majority was back in power.
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
JHOVA said:
Can't let a death toll get in the way of being a good comrade.
We can talk about death toll, but if only one leader is deadly we can't say there is a propensity for genocide.
Quote:
JHOVA said:
Communism ruined South Africa in so many ways. Murder capital and rape capital of the world. 13% have aids. 50% of women are raped in their life. 23% unemployment. Racial hatred and no regard for property rights has lead to 70,000 vicious white farm murders. All in the name of equality.
"ItS nOt ReAl cOmMuNiSm"
That's the first I've heard South Africa is communist. Got a link to support that claim?
You must be fucking with me. https://lmgtfy.com/?q=communism+mandela&iie=1
Start here and here
Here's a lot of facts condensed in a few minutes. i doubt you will watch. south africa on many metrics was on par with europe then before the bantus seized power.
if you find something incorrect please let me know. i went through and was shocked at how far the country has fallen into a rape/murder capital of the world. aids epidemic. just terrible and lawless.
Mandela was the president of the ANC and worked with the Umkhonto_we_Sizwe and south african communist party closely.
Molymeme did one on his wife winnie mandela. shes a bad as Mandela.
Currently in SA the main issue at hand is land expropriation without compensation from white land owners and white farm owners that have been in the country for hundreds of years. this happened in Zimbabwe as well and now they are facing famine.
Seizing the means of production and ending private property. classic communism. if you want you can look into the eskom scandal. tons of embezzlement and corruption there from the state owned energy company.
https://www.iol.co.za/news/opinion/explained-why-eskom-is-in-so-much-trouble-19238470
Quote:
What’s the trouble with Eskom?
Eskom has two major problems. Its operating costs are too high and it can’t pay its debt. It owes over R400 billion and does not generate enough cash to pay even the interest on its debt. It’s reached the end of the road.
Eskom has been getting steep tariff increases in recent years but these have driven some customers off-grid and shut others down. Eskom’s sales have been declining by about 1% per annum. The less it sells, the higher the tariff it wants, and the less it sells – the utility death spiral.
How did it get here?
The main cause of its troubles is its decision to build two of the biggest coal-fired generating plants in the world, (Medupi and Kusile). These plants are running way behind schedule, they’re over budget and the bits that are complete don’t work properly. They are probably the single largest disaster in South Africa’s economic history.
“State capture” (patronage networks), corruption and poor management have led to overstaffing and neglected maintenance, resulting in constant breakdowns. Electricity theft, a culture of non-payment and defaulting municipalities have deepened the crisis. Eskom is owed over R30 billion.
What are the answers?
Eskom needs to simultaneously reduce operating costs, increase tariffs and shed a big chunk of its debt. There is no painless way for South Africans to deal with their Eskom crisis. And it can’t wait until the national elections on 8 May 2019.
President Cyril Ramaphosa appointed a team of advisers and has announced that Eskom is to be split into three subsidiaries: generation, transmission and distribution. This has been government policy since 1998. This should increase cost and debt transparency and may lead to increased efficiencies, especially if competition is allowed.
Ramaphosa hinted that Eskom will be allowed to invest in renewables, possibly to absorb surplus staff and avoid retrenchments that have been so vehemently opposed by the unions. Some think this is too little too late. He passed the debt hot potato to the Minister of Finance's budget speech on 20 February 2018.
Energy Minister Jeff Radebe said Eskom must prepare for increased competition, presumably in generation. The transmission network needs to be opened to allow this. The courts have stopped Eskom from switching off defaulting municipalities. Eskom's crisis gets worse every day. The government will have to sort out municipal non-payment or allow towns and cities to go dark or let Eskom collapse.
Until the President’s statement, government seemed paralysed. Will words turn into the effective action that’s needed to save South Africa from its power utility?
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koods
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA] 1
#26157932 - 08/28/19 07:25 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
many SA's wish the white majority was back in power.
MAJORITY? 🤦♂️
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26157954 - 08/28/19 07:34 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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You have done an excellent job describing the clusterfuck of SA.
You cited/outlined: corruption ((in USA)like Enron),systemic racism ((in USA)like Jim Crow), etc.
I offer the above not to assert the events are identical historically; but however, to demonstrate that nation building (in any stage) is particularly nasty....no nation is exempt(or, do you have an example?). This often includes the murders and events that you link to.
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Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (08/28/19 07:37 PM)
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Mycolorado
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA] 1
#26157962 - 08/28/19 07:38 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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I’m sure white South Africans were displeased with the end of apartheid.
Yeah, South Africa had/has a communist party that wanted to end apartheid. It was declared illegal by the, you guessed it, ruling Nationalist party (White Nationalist).
Media Bias/Fact Check has this to say about Free domain radio:
“Freedomain Radio (FR) is an online site run by Stefan Molyneux. RP offers no stories in the traditional news sense, but hosts podcasts and YouTube videos which consist primarily of Mr. Molyneux’s views on current events and society in general. The tone of the podcasts and videos is a mix of alt-right libertarianism, racism, and misogyny coated in a veneer of Mr. Molyneux’s brand of self help philosophy . FR has also been described as a cult as Mr. Molyneux encourages followers to sever all ties with their family of origin and instead form new ties of their own choosing. For all of the above FR is rated Conspiracy – Pseudoscience.”
Not surprised they’re your info source.
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chibiabos
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: koods]
#26158063 - 08/28/19 08:42 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
many SA's wish the white majority was back in power.
MAJORITY? 🤦♂️
Majority of South Africans who are white.
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JHOVA
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Myco you argument is Stefan Molymeme is a bad guy therefore his description of SA must be wrong. Thats a rather weak argument. Facts are facts. The fact is White people ran South Africa better than blacks. just like french ruled Haiti better than blacks. and zimbabwe. the pattern is black rule will result in degradation, death, disease and corruption. please prove me wrong. ill wait. 
here are quotes from Julius Malema the leader of the Economic Freedom Fighter party
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/gareth-van-onselen/is-sa-really-worse-now-than-under-apartheid_a_23358994/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAABC4uZvxP9oxDDvcWubJ_KgIPd2EU7WFm8RCH0AOdFSdeYaZVR9iYCnYjhQvMrGiv7iPITt-97UmM-mUpGCa6IPETRmfYpxbT-ZsXtgwRQMat-1Qc85fIHjDDJiCIhqW4FYUnt8is2XVxfzfv7Uuq3DQomm4icCp_r5fQTlPl0pJ
Quote:
EFF leader Julius Malema has often used the comparison. He has described RDP housing under the ANC government as "worse than apartheid houses," likewise the public healthcare system and, in perhaps his most damning comparison, the general condition of black South Africans: "We are worse than we were during the times of apartheid. We are being killed by our own people. We are being oppressed by our own government."
Douglas Gibson former DA chief whip
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Douglas Gibson, former DA chief whip and ambassador to Thailand, far preceded Malema in his view on the public healthcare system, saying in 2016, "If anything, many of our public hospitals are worse — some far worse – than they were under the apartheid government twenty-five or thirty years ago."
Helen Suzman - South African anti-apartheid activist and politician. She represented a succession of liberal and centre-left opposition parties during her 36-year tenure in the whites-only, National Party-controlled House of Assembly of South Africa at the height of the apartheid era.
Quote:
Even the late Helen Suzman felt compelled to make the comparison, with regard to the state of debate and democracy. "Debate is almost nonexistent and no one is apparently accountable to anybody apart from their political party bosses," she said in 2004, "It is bad news for democracy in this country. Even though we didn't have a free press under apartheid, the government of that day seemed to be very much more accountable in parliament."
DA leader Mmusi Maimane
Quote:
DA leader Mmusi Maimane has said of the current education system, "The education [Jacob Zuma's] government provides to millions of black children is no better than the Bantu Education of 40 years ago. In fact, many believe it is worse." And the former leader, Helen Zille, has used the phrase to describe the scourge of gang violence and drug addiction (no doubt with particular reference to the situation in the Western Cape).
SA straight facts
1. SA is the rape capital of the world.
2. SA is the murder capital of the world.
3. 13% of the population has AIDS.
4. Under Mandela the health minister refused A.R.V. medicine to those affected by AIDS causing the death of 330,000 people.
5. Mandela ordered 156 acts of public bombings killing innocent women and children. churches and places of worship.
7. Mandela never renounced his violence
8. the san/couloured people were nomadic goat herders and ethnically distinct from the bantu that migrated south. the san/coloured people are treated very badly by the ruling bantu as bad as whites. they are the rightful "owners" of south africa before the boers/dutch build colonies there.
9. Mandela nationalized the banks, corporations, and natural resources.
10. 37% of men in SA reported raping a woman.
11. 1 in 3 women will be raped before agae 18
12. 1 in 2 women will be raped in their lifetime.
13. 7% of men have been in a gang rape.
14. babies are raped to cure AIDS regularly.
14. the currency has fallen 70% of its original value since the ANC took power in 1994.
15. Mandela and his wife are famous for being proponents of "necklacing" political opponents. usually black SA's.
Quote:
Necklacing is the practice of extrajudicial summary execution and torture method carried out by forcing a rubber tire, filled with petrol, around a victim's chest and arms, and setting it on fire. The victim may take up to 20 minutes to die, suffering severe burns in the process.[1]
In South Africa
Necklacing was used by the black community to punish its members who were perceived as collaborators with the apartheid government.[2] Necklacing was primarily used on police informants; the practice was often carried out in the name of the struggle, although the executive body of the African National Congress (ANC), the most broadly supported South African opposition movement, condemned it.[3][4] In 1986, Winnie Mandela, then-wife of the imprisoned Nelson Mandela, stated, "With our boxes of matches, and our necklaces, we shall liberate this country", which was widely seen as an explicit endorsement of necklacing,[5][6] which at the time caused the ANC to distance itself from her,[7] although she later took on a number of official positions within the party.[7]
The first victim of necklacing, according to the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission, was a young woman, Maki Skosana, on 20 July 1985.[8]
Moloko said her sister was burned to death with a tire around her neck while attending the funeral of one of the youths. Her body had been scorched by fire and some broken pieces of glass had been inserted into her vagina, Moloko told the committee. Moloko added that a big rock had been thrown on her face after she had been killed.[9]
 
Man i have no idea why anyone would prefer apartheid africa to black rule africa. N O I D E A.
heres a video on what life is like as a white minority in SA. the blacks hunt innocent white farmers and kill them in the most sadistic ways. nail guns, scalding water, blow torches, rape. children women and men included.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26158164 - 08/28/19 10:33 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That's the first I've heard South Africa is communist. Got a link to support that claim?
You must be fucking with me. https://lmgtfy.com/?q=communism+mandela&iie=1
I tried a web search before I asked you for a link. It came up empty.
Quote:
JHOVA said:
Start here and here
Your first link is to the South African Communist Party. Here's a link to the Communist Party USA. Does that mean I just proved the USA is communist by your logic?
Your second link is to Nelson Mandela. His political party was the African National Congress while President of South Africa. Though he was friendly towards communism, that doesn't mean South Africa was communist.
Do you actually have a link to a site saying South Africa was ever communist?
Quote:
JHOVA said:
Here's a lot of facts condensed in a few minutes. i doubt you will watch. south africa on many metrics was on par with europe then before the bantus seized power.
if you find something incorrect please let me know.
I watched it, unfortunately. As I've previously shown, and as Mycolorado noted, Stefan Molyneux is one of the world's greatest idiots. But let's look at what he specifically said in the video:
He said he'll back up everything he says. But right off the bat he said Mandela was put in jail for ordering bombings that killed very many people, but he couldn't find any information on the number of people that were killed. He even admitted that Mandela said the bombings were against strategic targets and not human life.
Then he claimed he couldn't find anything because "people on the left are very prevalent in the media and they tend to be socialist/communist and so they tend to cover up these crimes." That is a LIE right there. People in the media are often establishment, and tend to support big money.
He then says crime has gone up in South Africa, and that people with AIDS were raping children because they thought having sex with a virgin would cure AIDS. What does that have to do with communism? Show me where it says that's a cure in the communist manifesto (or any other prevalent communist doctrine).
Next he talks about the murder and genocide rates in Rwanda, Burundi, Uganda, Nigeria, and Mozambique. What does any of that have to do with communism???
Finally, he the concludes that Gandhi was evil like Mandela. Alrighty then. That video was a huge waste of my time. As I (incorrectly) stated before, I'll never watch another Molyneux video.
As for the rest of your post, it seems you've shifted from "communism is evil" to "whites were better than blacks at running countries". That's not what we're debating right now.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26158168 - 08/28/19 10:37 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
Myco you argument is Stefan Molymeme is a bad guy therefore his description of SA must be wrong. Thats a rather weak argument. Facts are facts. The fact is White people ran South Africa better than blacks. just like french ruled Haiti better than blacks. and zimbabwe. the pattern is black rule will result in degradation, death, disease and corruption. please prove me wrong. ill wait.
here are quotes from Julius Malema the leader of the Economic Freedom Fighter party
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/gareth-van-onselen/is-sa-really-worse-now-than-under-apartheid_a_23358994/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAABC4uZvxP9oxDDvcWubJ_KgIPd2EU7WFm8RCH0AOdFSdeYaZVR9iYCnYjhQvMrGiv7iPITt-97UmM-mUpGCa6IPETRmfYpxbT-ZsXtgwRQMat-1Qc85fIHjDDJiCIhqW4FYUnt8is2XVxfzfv7Uuq3DQomm4icCp_r5fQTlPl0pJ
Quote:
EFF leader Julius Malema has often used the comparison. He has described RDP housing under the ANC government as "worse than apartheid houses," likewise the public healthcare system and, in perhaps his most damning comparison, the general condition of black South Africans: "We are worse than we were during the times of apartheid. We are being killed by our own people. We are being oppressed by our own government."
Douglas Gibson former DA chief whip
Quote:
Douglas Gibson, former DA chief whip and ambassador to Thailand, far preceded Malema in his view on the public healthcare system, saying in 2016, "If anything, many of our public hospitals are worse — some far worse – than they were under the apartheid government twenty-five or thirty years ago."
Helen Suzman - South African anti-apartheid activist and politician. She represented a succession of liberal and centre-left opposition parties during her 36-year tenure in the whites-only, National Party-controlled House of Assembly of South Africa at the height of the apartheid era.
Quote:
Even the late Helen Suzman felt compelled to make the comparison, with regard to the state of debate and democracy. "Debate is almost nonexistent and no one is apparently accountable to anybody apart from their political party bosses," she said in 2004, "It is bad news for democracy in this country. Even though we didn't have a free press under apartheid, the government of that day seemed to be very much more accountable in parliament."
DA leader Mmusi Maimane
Quote:
DA leader Mmusi Maimane has said of the current education system, "The education [Jacob Zuma's] government provides to millions of black children is no better than the Bantu Education of 40 years ago. In fact, many believe it is worse." And the former leader, Helen Zille, has used the phrase to describe the scourge of gang violence and drug addiction (no doubt with particular reference to the situation in the Western Cape).
SA straight facts
1. SA is the rape capital of the world.
2. SA is the murder capital of the world.
3. 13% of the population has AIDS.
4. Under Mandela the health minister refused A.R.V. medicine to those affected by AIDS causing the death of 330,000 people.
5. Mandela ordered 156 acts of public bombings killing innocent women and children. churches and places of worship.
7. Mandela never renounced his violence
8. the san/couloured people were nomadic goat herders and ethnically distinct from the bantu that migrated south. the san/coloured people are treated very badly by the ruling bantu as bad as whites. they are the rightful "owners" of south africa before the boers/dutch build colonies there.
9. Mandela nationalized the banks, corporations, and natural resources.
10. 37% of men in SA reported raping a woman.
11. 1 in 3 women will be raped before agae 18
12. 1 in 2 women will be raped in their lifetime.
13. 7% of men have been in a gang rape.
14. babies are raped to cure AIDS regularly.
14. the currency has fallen 70% of its original value since the ANC took power in 1994.
15. Mandela and his wife are famous for being proponents of "necklacing" political opponents. usually black SA's.
Quote:
Necklacing is the practice of extrajudicial summary execution and torture method carried out by forcing a rubber tire, filled with petrol, around a victim's chest and arms, and setting it on fire. The victim may take up to 20 minutes to die, suffering severe burns in the process.[1]
In South Africa
Necklacing was used by the black community to punish its members who were perceived as collaborators with the apartheid government.[2] Necklacing was primarily used on police informants; the practice was often carried out in the name of the struggle, although the executive body of the African National Congress (ANC), the most broadly supported South African opposition movement, condemned it.[3][4] In 1986, Winnie Mandela, then-wife of the imprisoned Nelson Mandela, stated, "With our boxes of matches, and our necklaces, we shall liberate this country", which was widely seen as an explicit endorsement of necklacing,[5][6] which at the time caused the ANC to distance itself from her,[7] although she later took on a number of official positions within the party.[7]
The first victim of necklacing, according to the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission, was a young woman, Maki Skosana, on 20 July 1985.[8]
Moloko said her sister was burned to death with a tire around her neck while attending the funeral of one of the youths. Her body had been scorched by fire and some broken pieces of glass had been inserted into her vagina, Moloko told the committee. Moloko added that a big rock had been thrown on her face after she had been killed.[9]
Man i have no idea why anyone would prefer apartheid africa to black rule africa. N O I D E A.
heres a video on what life is like as a white minority in SA. the blacks hunt innocent white farmers and kill them in the most sadistic ways. nail guns, scalding water, blow torches, rape. children women and men included.
I see the discussion has shifted form "communism is bad" to "whites are better than blacks". Amirite?
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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JHOVA
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  [url=https://files.shroomery.org/files/19-35/705884181-Screenshot_20190828-151920.png]
The anc is communist. Mandela was partnered with sacp. The anc is expropriating land to end private property
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26158294 - 08/29/19 12:51 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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That doesn't say South Africa was communist. It says Mandela's party "allied themselves with the communists" who turned out to be good allies against racist whites.
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Mycolorado
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JHOVA ‘s entire argument is that whites are better than everyone else. It’s all he talks about in every single thread. Must be a pretty pathetic existence for one’s only perceived success to be that they’re white.
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The Ecstatic
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That doesn't say South Africa was communist. It says Mandela's party "allied themselves with the communists" who turned out to be good allies against racist whites.
Mandela was a communist and that’s good.
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JHOVA
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Quote:
Mycolorado said:
JHOVA ‘s entire argument is that whites are better than everyone else. It’s all he talks about in every single thread. Must be a pretty pathetic existence for one’s only perceived success to be that they’re white.
It's the thought that counts myco.
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That doesn't say South Africa was communist. It says Mandela's party "allied themselves with the communists" who turned out to be good allies against racist whites.
I could beat you with a communist stick and you'd say it was a random attack.
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That doesn't say South Africa was communist. It says Mandela's party "allied themselves with the communists" who turned out to be good allies against racist whites.
Mandela was a communist and that’s good.
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Mycolorado
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26158672 - 08/29/19 09:01 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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qman
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Quote:
Mycolorado said:
JHOVA ‘s entire argument is that whites are better than everyone else. It’s all he talks about in every single thread. Must be a pretty pathetic existence for one’s only perceived success to be that they’re white.
He never stated that at all, do you have anything better than a strawman argument?
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Mycolorado
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: qman] 2
#26158759 - 08/29/19 10:00 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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 It’s extracted from the context off all his posts. Reading comprehension required.
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koods
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Essentially all his posts are about racial and cultural superiority
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA] 2
#26158879 - 08/29/19 11:14 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
I could beat you with a communist stick and you'd say it was a random attack.
BINGO! After discussing this issue for some time now, I'd KNOW you weren't a communist even if you beat me with a communist stick.
Do you see the error in your logic now? Mandela may have been friendly towards communists, or he may have been a communist himself, but that doesn't make South Africa communist.
And I noticed you couldn't find an article saying it was.
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Brian Jones
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Since South Africa isn't a good place to live...it must be communist.
Remember Monty Python and the Holy Grail. This line of reasoning is right up there with if it floats it must be a witch.
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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Pretty much. 
I'm actually a little surprised by JHOVA's arguments - he's usually a smarter guy. But in this case, if a country's having an issue, it can't be bad leadership, it must be socialism.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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JHOVA
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26161396 - 08/30/19 07:45 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Here you preached to us that Muslims in the US need to integrate, that terror suspects should be screened, and that existing laws should be enforced; then you post a video critical of China for doing exactly what you said the US should do.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26161592 - 08/30/19 10:08 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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...and before you criticize China for the way they treat their citizens, maybe you should take a look at the US:
After Man Serves 35 Years in Prison for $50 Robbery, US 'Should Be Ashamed of System We Allow'
602 people have been shot and killed by police in 2019
I could go on, but you get the point.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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JHOVA
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Foreigners (Muslims/han)don't have a right to enter a foreign country. For example the Obama travel ban trump upheld is good for americans. Nationalists recognize nation's we don't recognize a right to enter a country without permission.
Hong Kong is ethnically distinct,culturally distinct, and speak their own language. They have a right to exist and self determination. The han Chinese do not have a right to genetically replace the HK people.
Judicial systems need to exist and the people need to decide what's good for them. The judicial system is completely fucked in America I agree. We let far too many people off and out of jail early for being non white as a part of criminal justice reform. Kate steinle killers was just let off Scott free he's illegal and shouldn't have been here or stealing officers weapons, "bail reform" is a disaster people are killing then getting out on bail and killing again it's a joke clown world system at this point. There's tons of witness intimidation going on to squash cases.
People being shot by police means nothing in itself. The metric YOU would need to prove is wrongful death. The beauty these days is body cams on every interaction. You can see for yourself what's going on.
3 strikes was a good policy. If you are dumb enough to commit 3 crimes you deserve prison. I don't want those people on the street committing more crimes and harassing my kids or my family. He was a threat to the community that case isnt about the monetary amount it's about the danger you post by repeatedly having no respect for others property or bodily integrity.
Quote:
First Degree Robbery
A robbery charge is elevated to first degree robbery when the victim or someone else not involved in the crime is seriously injured. First degree robbery may also take place if the perpetrator is armed with a deadly weapon and threatens to use it against the victim
First degree robbery is attack with a deadly weapon and caused bodily injury. Fuck that guy.
Criminal justice reform in action. Guys with rap sheets as long as your arm.
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Edited by JHOVA (08/31/19 10:37 AM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26162236 - 08/31/19 11:15 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
Foreigners (Muslims/han)don't have a right to enter a foreign country.
Your personal opinion doesn't matter unless you convince Congress to stop allowing immigration.
Hong Kong is part of China (which you don't seem to realize) so the han certainly have a right to be in Hong Kong.
Quote:
JHOVA said:
For example the Obama travel ban trump upheld is good for americans.
Trumps travel ban wasn't even close to the Obama ban. You can read more on Politifact so I don't waste my time.
Quote:
JHOVA said:
Nationalists recognize nation's we don't recognize a right to enter a country without permission.
Ok. And what does this have to do with China/Hong Kong?
Quote:
JHOVA said:
Hong Kong is ethnically distinct,culturally distinct, and speak their own language. They have a right to exist and self determination. The han Chinese do not have a right to genetically replace the HK people.
Muslims in the US are ethnically distinct,culturally distinct, and some speak their own language. Are you saying the US should protect these American Muslims?
Quote:
JHOVA said:
People being shot by police means nothing in itself. The metric YOU would need to prove is wrongful death. The beauty these days is body cams on every interaction. You can see for yourself what's going on.
And the same isn't true in Hong Kong? The video you provided above ONLY shows protestors AFTER police arrested them. It cut out the parts where the protestors hurled fire bombs were otherwise threatening. You can watch those videos on Ruptly.
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JHOVA
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Hong Kong is distinct from China and was under British rule for the last 52 years. Theres a major difference between mainland and HK.
Hong Kong should keep fighting until they are granted secession from China. They have a right not to be replaced by mainland chinese.
I think i see your confusion on muslims. foreign nationals have no right immigration to any country. immigration is a privilege. Domestically born americans of muslim faith/psuedo race are americans. they have a right to exist and propagate their culture once here it's inevitable at that point. I can appreciate Muslims for their strong family ties, value of the traditional gender roles, and rejection of the LGBTQBBQ agenda. good on them for that. i just dont want to be around them forced into their culture.
The video actually has Uyghurs in it if you watched it. they talk about having their religion banned, forced to sing communist songs multiple times a day pledging their allegiance to the communist state, torture, check points in their cities, no privacy, reeducation camps. it sucks. i hope they can secede or move from china one day and form their own state.
Diversity always breeds conflict.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26162320 - 08/31/19 12:11 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
Hong Kong is distinct from China and was under British rule for the last 52 years. Theres a major difference between mainland and HK.
There's a major difference between California and Alabama too.
Quote:
JHOVA said:
Hong Kong should keep fighting until they are granted secession from China. They have a right not to be replaced by mainland chinese.
So American Muslims have a right to their own communities in the US without pesky American rule? Muslim 'no-go' zones? Hong Kong currently belongs to China.
Quote:
JHOVA said:
I think i see your confusion on muslims. foreign nationals have no right immigration to any country. immigration is a privilege.
You're the one that's confused. Hong Kong is part of China so immigration isn't even part of the discussion.
Quote:
JHOVA said:
Domestically born americans of muslim faith/psuedo race are americans. they have a right to exist and propagate their culture once here it's inevitable at that point. I can appreciate Muslims for their strong family ties, value of the traditional gender roles, and rejection of the LGBTQBBQ agenda. good on them for that. i just dont want to be around them forced into their culture.
So now you're taking this back? You no longer think Muslims need to assimilate to US culture and accept US law?
Quote:
JHOVA said:
The video actually has Uyghurs in it if you watched it. they talk about having their religion banned, forced to sing communist songs multiple times a day pledging their allegiance to the communist state, torture, check points in their cities, no privacy, reeducation camps. it sucks. i hope they can secede or move from china one day and form their own state.
So you're saying American Muslims have a right to practice Sharia Law in the US and shouldn't need to conform to US culture?
Quote:
JHOVA said:
Diversity always breeds conflict.
Only amongstst racists. I do fine in a very diverse environment.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (08/31/19 12:22 PM)
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Skellies
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26162412 - 08/31/19 01:10 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
Hong Kong should keep fighting until they are granted secession from China.
They won't get secession but it would be great if they could keep their rights. If I lived there I'd do everything I could to prevent full on assimilation.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
austothehun said:
If I lived there I'd do everything I could to prevent full on assimilation.
Do you think American Muslims have the right to prevent assimilation into American culture? Do you support Sharia Law?
If not, how would you feel if China riled up American Muslims to fight the American system? Do you think American Muslims have a right to fight the American system, and do you encourage them to, as we're doing with Hong Kong?
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Skellies
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You’re comparing sharia law to basic human rights like criticizing the government. I don’t know how to respond to that.
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
If not, how would you feel if China riled up American Muslims to fight the American system? Do you think American Muslims have a right to fight the American system, and do you encourage them to, as we're doing with Hong Kong?
If they want sharia law then they have the right to organize and demonstrate in support of it. If the police started attacking them for exercising those rights (which is what’s happening in HK) I wouldn’t blame them for fighting back, even though civil disobedience is preferable.
What exactly are “we” doing in HK? The notion that hundreds of thousands of locals are just foreign pawns stretches the imagination.
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JHOVA
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Registered: 02/17/17
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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JHOVA said:
Hong Kong is distinct from China and was under British rule for the last 52 years. Theres a major difference between mainland and HK.
There's a major difference between California and Alabama too.
Yup and the South would have been better off letting them secede and Texas.
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JHOVA said:
Hong Kong should keep fighting until they are granted secession from China. They have a right not to be replaced by mainland chinese.
So American Muslims have a right to their own communities in the US without pesky American rule? Muslim 'no-go' zones? Hong Kong currently belongs to China.
They get what they fight for. currently they are opposing LGBT indoctrination in UK and wining. eventually one side will have to make concessions or it could continue until there are lots of dead people. thats human nature and normal conflict resolution.
Certain places in sweden certainly could claim they want to self govern via sharia law. how can you blame them? you know what type of people they are and their religious preference. they invited them in and now you act shocked that behavioral crime and religious statistics dont exist. lol. i wouldnt be surprised if they just start doing it democratically like we will see in ilhan omars district of minnesota. no surprises here on that front.
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JHOVA said:
I think i see your confusion on muslims. foreign nationals have no right immigration to any country. immigration is a privilege.
You're the one that's confused. Hong Kong is part of China so immigration isn't even part of the discussion.
China can send in a million people and replace the native HK population to squash the dissent.
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JHOVA said:
Domestically born americans of muslim faith/psuedo race are americans. they have a right to exist and propagate their culture once here it's inevitable at that point. I can appreciate Muslims for their strong family ties, value of the traditional gender roles, and rejection of the LGBTQBBQ agenda. good on them for that. i just dont want to be around them forced into their culture.
So now you're taking this back? You no longer think Muslims need to assimilate to US culture and accept US law?
what i want and what will happen are two different outcomes ideal vs pragmatic. diversity breeds conflict.
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JHOVA said:
The video actually has Uyghurs in it if you watched it. they talk about having their religion banned, forced to sing communist songs multiple times a day pledging their allegiance to the communist state, torture, check points in their cities, no privacy, reeducation camps. it sucks. i hope they can secede or move from china one day and form their own state.
So you're saying American Muslims have a right to practice Sharia Law in the US and shouldn't need to conform to US culture?
Not a fan of Sharia but in afghanistan, iraq, pakistan they are sovreign nations and i respect them to have full autonomy of how they run their countries. its not up to us to rule the world. like i said previously i hope they can secede peacefully or move to a country that supports their views
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JHOVA said:
Diversity always breeds conflict.
Only amongstst racists. I do fine in a very diverse environment.
All that means is you agree enough with everyone around you. it points to a lack of diversity in your environment lol.
diversity fault lines in peoples is racial, ethnic, regional, language and dialect driven, religious, national, class, education.
but the most important to most people is racial.
tutsi vs hutu
protestant vs catholic
rich vs poor
the more diverse ones identity or opinion the worse the conflict will be in all aspects of life.
you know what i mean. theres clearly people and ideas you dont want to be surrounded with and if you were forced to be around them there would be social friction which could lead to disagreements which could culminate in violence.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26162701 - 08/31/19 04:27 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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austothehun said:
You’re comparing sharia law to basic human rights like criticizing the government. I don’t know how to respond to that.
No, the Chinese constitution allows for demonstrations. Peaceful protests happen in China all the time against the Government; many are largely successful as we saw when China dropped the extradition bill that people were protesting in Hong Kong. But many of the Hong Kong protests have been violent, with protestors throwing fire bombs and bricks at police. You don't hear much about that, because the mainstream media won't show it, and because Facebook and Twitter have suspended over 200,000 Chinese accounts. But the videos are out there.
And if you watched JHOVA's video, you'd see it's full of Muslims, including many suspected terrorists - that the Chinese Government treated exactly what he's saying he wished the US Government treated American Muslims.
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austothehun said:
If they want sharia law then they have the right to organize and demonstrate in support of it.
Yes they do, and they HAVE that right. China is cracking down on violent protestors.
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austothehun said:
If the police started attacking them for exercising those rights (which is what’s happening in HK) I wouldn’t blame them for fighting back, even though civil disobedience is preferable.
And if the protestors starting attacking the police for trying to keep the peace, and the police fought back, would you blame them?
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austothehun said:
What exactly are “we” doing in HK? The notion that hundreds of thousands of locals are just foreign pawns stretches the imagination.
Does the notion that that hundreds of thousands of Americans are pawns to Russian influence seem crazy to you?
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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JHOVA said:
Hong Kong should keep fighting until they are granted secession from China. They have a right not to be replaced by mainland chinese.
So American Muslims have a right to their own communities in the US without pesky American rule? Muslim 'no-go' zones? Hong Kong currently belongs to China.
They get what they fight for. eventually one side will have to make concessions or it could continue until there are lots of dead people.
So you believe American Muslims should fight and kill for what they believe in? 
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JHOVA said:
its not up to us to rule the world. like i said previously i hope they can secede peacefully or move to a country that supports their views[/color]
China won't let them secede peacefully just like the US didn't let the South secede peacefully. I guess they'll have to move to another country.
I agree it's not up to the US to rule the world, so I don't know why you're supporting the protests.
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JHOVA said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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JHOVA said:
Diversity always breeds conflict.
Only amongstst racists. I do fine in a very diverse environment.
All that means is you agree enough with everyone around you. it points to a lack of diversity in your environment lol.
If only you knew how diverse my neighborhood was.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Brian Jones
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA] 1
#26162870 - 08/31/19 06:15 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
Hong Kong is distinct from China and was under British rule for the last 52 years. Theres a major difference between mainland and HK.
Hong Kong should keep fighting until they are granted secession from China. They have a right not to be replaced by mainland chinese.
I think i see your confusion on muslims. foreign nationals have no right immigration to any country. immigration is a privilege. Domestically born americans of muslim faith/psuedo race are americans. they have a right to exist and propagate their culture once here it's inevitable at that point. I can appreciate Muslims for their strong family ties, value of the traditional gender roles, and rejection of the LGBTQBBQ agenda. good on them for that. i just dont want to be around them forced into their culture.
The video actually has Uyghurs in it if you watched it. they talk about having their religion banned, forced to sing communist songs multiple times a day pledging their allegiance to the communist state, torture, check points in their cities, no privacy, reeducation camps. it sucks. i hope they can secede or move from china one day and form their own state.
Diversity always breeds conflict.
Britain paid for a lease for Hong Kong. The lease expired. Hong Kong belongs to China. We may not like it, but China has a legal right to it's territory.
You appreciate Muslims' value of traditional gender roles. Do you know what they do to girls? And you appreciate their rejection of LGBTQ agenda (I honestly don't know what the BBQ stands for). OK you're talking about Muslims who have immigrated to Western countries. In these countries every one has rights. Are we supposed to take those rights away from people who are in outgroups?
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The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Quote:
Brian Jones said:
...
Britain paid for a lease for Hong Kong. The lease expired. Hong Kong belongs to China. We may not like it, but China has a legal right to it's territory.
...
sort of off-topic, but all this Hong Kong debate makes me wonder how various members of this subforum feel about the Chinese claims over Tibet
and their efforts to surpress the Buddhist population that has such an extended history there
Quote:
Brian Jones said:
...
You appreciate Muslims' value of traditional gender roles. Do you know what they do to girls? And you appreciate their rejection of LGBTQ agenda (I honestly don't know what the BBQ stands for). ...
The addition of "BBQ" is typically an attempt to make a legitimate movement of citizens sound ridiculous in its nature of using expanding acronyms to begin with
interestingly, LGBTQ2+ values seem to be increasingly taking hold in Western Muslim communities -- tho it will likely take multiple generations to see acceptance like exists in some branches of Christianity
one of my personal favourite posts on my favourite trans subreddit in recent months was by a non-binary identifying Muslim,
who found it ridiculous that traditional conservative Islamic beliefs were saying they could not be non-binary while Allah is non-binary by default
tho this is arguably one of the more positive aspects of broader Western culture's constant progression
in our system, queer Muslims can garner fame rather than infamy
the unfortunate part is that they may still feel unsafe around the more traditional and conservative portions of the Islamic community
but it is, at least, an arguable step up from the genuine and constant threat to their life that would be experienced living in a country that is actually run on Islamic legal and cultural standards
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JHOVA
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Muslims views on traditional gender roles is separate from female genital multilation. I'm against ALL forms of genital mutilation including the often forgotten and unnecessary MALE genital mutilation (thanks Jews).
It's pretty funny how falcon will say in one breath he loves diversity and in another talk about how he would not accept Muslim culture crowding out western liberal democracy. These ideas are at odds with each other.
The way I see it with HK is they want liberal democracy. they have rejected whatever government china is (state run capitalism?). They value their customs and language. They value their distinct people from the han Chinese and I hope they can come to an accord with china like the uyghurs and Tibetans. If not hopefully soon.
This is similar to amerindians. They have their own country, in a country. Full autonomy. They never recovered from that though. Maybe they should have fought harder like the HKers are doing right now.
They don't need to beat china militarily . They can use a mixture of diplomacy via globalist multinationals like the UN ,boycotts, bank runs and civil disobedience.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA] 1
#26163240 - 09/01/19 01:06 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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JHOVA said:
It's pretty funny how falcon will say in one breath he loves diversity and in another talk about how he would not accept Muslim culture crowding out western liberal democracy. These ideas are at odds with each other.
Did I ever say that I love diversity? I said I live in a very diverse area without conflict. I even admitted I was racist.
What's funny is how you fight against Muslim rights in the US but want them in China.
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JHOVA said:
The way I see it with HK is they want liberal democracy. they have rejected whatever government china is (state run capitalism?). They value their customs and language. They value their distinct people from the han Chinese and I hope they can come to an accord with china like the uyghurs and Tibetans. If not hopefully soon.
The way I see it, you believe what the Western media wants you to believe. Only 1 in 6 people in Hong Kong want independence. A lot of people there support China.
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JHOVA said:
This is similar to amerindians. They have their own country, in a country. Full autonomy. They never recovered from that though. Maybe they should have fought harder like the HKers are doing right now.
Amerindian resistance fighting has never ended well for them.
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JHOVA said:
They don't need to beat china militarily . They can use a mixture of diplomacy via globalist multinationals like the UN ,boycotts, bank runs and civil disobedience.
How would you feel if Russia was interfering in our democracy and trying to get things only some of us want, like we are in Hong Kong?
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
Tantrika said:
sort of off-topic, but all this Hong Kong debate makes me wonder how various members of this subforum feel about the Chinese claims over Tibet
and their efforts to surpress the Buddhist population that has such an extended history there
That's a tougher question than Hong Kong, as it isn't quite as clear whether Tibet belongs to China or not. Almost all sources I've checked, however, do say Tibet is part of China, including the CIA Factbook and Wikipedia.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Tantrika said:
sort of off-topic, but all this Hong Kong debate makes me wonder how various members of this subforum feel about the Chinese claims over Tibet
and their efforts to surpress the Buddhist population that has such an extended history there
That's a tougher question than Hong Kong, as it isn't quite as clear whether Tibet belongs to China or not. Almost all sources I've checked, however, do say Tibet is part of China.
appreciate the input
it was mostly me being a turd tho; the Tibetan question is more or less decided
arguably, this is what was best for the Buddhist Dharma anyway, as it certainly helped to influence the spread of the Dalai Lama's teachings in a way that isolation in Tibet would not have
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shivas.wisdom
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I think Falcon91Wolvrn03 takes an incredibly paternalistic view of these people. I find it odd that they are this forums most voracious opponent against Russian interference in US politics, but when it comes to protest movements within formerly-communist states the story always goes that US or western interests are influencing events - not the local population - so safely disregard.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
I think Falcon91Wolvrn03 takes an incredibly paternalistic view of these people. I find it odd that they are this forums most voracious opponent against Russian interference in US politics, but when it comes to protest movements within formerly-communist states the story always goes that US or western interests are influencing events - not the local population - so safely disregard.
Ok, let's compare the evidence of Western interference in Hong Kong (or Crimea, or Venezuela, etc) with evidence of Russian interference in the US, shall we?
Do a Google search for NED funding of Hong Kong and you'll find it's pretty clear the US is providing funding for protests in a foreign country.
And I've brought this up before: New Studies Show Pundits Are Wrong About Russian Social-Media Involvement in US Politics
...but maybe you have something new since that article to share?
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Do a Google search for NED funding of Hong Kong and you'll find it's pretty clear the US is providing funding for protests in a foreign country.
Here's what Congressman Ron Paul said about NED (The National Endowment for Democracy):
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In 2005, arguing against funding NED in the US foreign assistance authorization bill, I said:
The National Endowment for Democracy...has very little to do with democracy. It is an organization that uses US tax money to actually subvert democracy, by showering funding on favored political parties or movements overseas. It underwrites color-coded ‘people's revolutions’ overseas that look more like pages out of Lenin's writings on stealing power than genuine indigenous democratic movements.
Sadly, matters are even worse now. To promote democracy overseas, NED and all other meddling US government funded NGOs should be disbanded immediately.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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JHOVA
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falcon you dont get protests with 1 million plus people who arent all protesting for SOMETHING. whats more instructive, a million people marching in lock step or a fucking poll? polls can be manipulated. *Hello Hillary department*
What is your position exactly? you side with china because china owns hong kong and thats the end of the story? that HK people customs and language mean nothing and should be erased?you are the type of guy where if something isnt stated by a government official or a scientific paper it isnt real and has no significance. an atomist.
I haven't seen strong evidence of US involvement in the protests/riots in HK. in theory it seems plausible as a way to pressure china into a trade deal. This movement even if started by outside sources eventually will be lead by the will of the host population. i think they still have agency over fighting for liberal democracy and against extradition to mainland for being a political dissident. there is something thats built up over years that propels them into the streets.
Id really like to hear from the protesters themselves as to what they think is going on and their motivations.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA] 1
#26164187 - 09/01/19 05:34 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
you side with china because china owns hong kong and thats the end of the story? that HK people customs and language mean nothing and should be erased?
No, I don't believe that, Britain believed that. Hong Kong was never a democracy as a British colony until just before Britain handed Hong Kong back to China. Britain likely did that to 'stick it' to China to ensure they couldn't control Hong Kong like Britain previously did. To pretend the west all of a sudden cares about Hong Kong's democracy is disingenuous.
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JHOVA said:
polls can be manipulated. *Hello Hillary department*.
This movement even if started by outside sources eventually will be lead by the will of the host population.
Id really like to hear from the protesters themselves as to what they think is going on and their motivations.
Why ask just the protestors? Why not ask everyone living in Hong Kong? We like democracy, right?
Polls can't be manipulated by much - others can take polls to verify previous polls. If you have evidence that the majority of people in Hong Kong are anti-Chinese, please share that poll and if it appears legitimate, I'll change my opinion. However, all the polls I've seen show that the majority of people in Hong Kong identify as Chinese.
I remember when we cried that the Crimean election couldn't possibly have resulted in 95% wanting to rejoin Russia, so I went there and I found that it was clearly that many, and I struggled (but eventually succeeded) in finding people that opposed rejoining Russia.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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shivas.wisdom
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
I think Falcon91Wolvrn03 takes an incredibly paternalistic view of these people. I find it odd that they are this forums most voracious opponent against Russian interference in US politics, but when it comes to protest movements within formerly-communist states the story always goes that US or western interests are influencing events - not the local population - so safely disregard.
Ok, let's compare the evidence of Western interference in Hong Kong (or Crimea, or Venezuela, etc) with evidence of Russian interference in the US, shall we?
Do a Google search for NED funding of Hong Kong and you'll find it's pretty clear the US is providing funding for protests in a foreign country.
And I've brought this up before: New Studies Show Pundits Are Wrong About Russian Social-Media Involvement in US Politics
...but maybe you have something new since that article to share?
I remember having a conversation with you about a wave of repression towards Russian anarchists resulting in arrests and torture, and your claim was that they were intentionally getting themselves into this position all in order to create attention-grabbing propaganda for western audiences. I highly doubt an anarchist group is receiving NED funds.
It's incredibly paternalistic because you seem to be of the opinion that any protest movement that could be construed as a aligning with US geopolitical interests, is the result of US manipulation rather than local indignation. It would be as condescending as someone suggestion the Occupy movement was the result of outside influence because Soros had provided funding for several of the participating groups.
I take it for granted that any country with the means participates in geopolitics. In this case, something that weakens the Chinese State would probably be supported by the US - but why should that support invalidate legitimate grievances that (even if just a minority of) the people of Hong Kong have against losing what limited autonomy they currently have to a highly authoritarian state? That's why it's paternalistic; these people are merely US pawns without personal agency in your position.
Lots of people on the streets of Hong Kong right now. Not all of them waving American flags.
https://crimethinc.com/2019/06/22/hong-kong-anarchists-in-the-resistance-to-the-extradition-bill-an-interview
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Skellies
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
No, the Chinese constitution allows for demonstrations. Peaceful protests happen in China all the time against the Government; many are largely successful as we saw when China dropped the extradition bill that people were protesting in Hong Kong. But many of the Hong Kong protests have been violent, with protestors throwing fire bombs and bricks at police. You don't hear much about that, because the mainstream media won't show it, and because Facebook and Twitter have suspended over 200,000 Chinese accounts. But the videos are out there.
And if you watched JHOVA's video, you'd see it's full of Muslims, including many suspected terrorists - that the Chinese Government treated exactly what he's saying he wished the US Government treated American Muslims.
Not going to defend JHOVA's comments on Muslims. People hold demonstrations in the mainland but they're mainly nationalist rallies or focused on local issues (appealing to the national party to intervene). Good luck criticizing the national party without repercussions.
The characterization of the earlier events isn't really accurate. The initial protests were met with excessive force by police. This fueled more demonstrations calling for an independent investigation into the police. Then the extradition bill was tabled, not dropped, which is another part of why the protests are continuing.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Yes they do, and they HAVE that right. China is cracking down on violent protestors.
Or just anyone standing in the wrong place at the right time. I'm sure there's some unprovoked violence but there's no denying the police response is out of control at this point, especially after last night's subway attacks.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
And if the protestors starting attacking the police for trying to keep the peace, and the police fought back, would you blame them?
If by "keeping the peace" you mean indiscriminately attacking protesters then yes.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Does the notion that that hundreds of thousands of Americans are pawns to Russian influence seem crazy to you?
I always thought the Russian collusion/subversion narrative was overblown.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
let's compare the evidence of Western interference in Hong Kong (or Crimea, or Venezuela, etc) with evidence of Russian interference in the US, shall we?
Do a Google search for NED funding of Hong Kong and you'll find it's pretty clear the US is providing funding for protests in a foreign country.
I remember having a conversation with you about a wave of repression towards Russian anarchists resulting in arrests and torture, and your claim was that they were intentionally getting themselves into this position all in order to create attention-grabbing propaganda for western audiences. I highly doubt an anarchist group is receiving NED funds.
Then you tell me who's getting the NED money. I don't know if it's going to an anarchist group. But we've definitely have been known to fund shady groups before.
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shivas.wisdom said:
It's incredibly paternalistic because you seem to be of the opinion that any protest movement that could be construed as a aligning with US geopolitical interests, is the result of US manipulation rather than local indignation.
No, that's not true. I am of the opinion that if a protest movement is financially supported WITH US funding, THEN the US is trying to manipulate things in foreign countries.
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shivas.wisdom said:
It would be as condescending as someone suggestion the Occupy movement was the result of outside influence because Soros had provided funding for several of the participating groups.
But Soros is a US citizen. The United States is not a citizen of Hong Kong.
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shivas.wisdom said:
I take it for granted that any country with the means participates in geopolitics. In this case, something that weakens the Chinese State would probably be supported by the US - but why should that support invalidate legitimate grievances that (even if just a minority of) the people of Hong Kong have against losing what limited autonomy they currently have to a highly authoritarian state? That's why it's paternalistic; these people are merely US pawns without personal agency in your position.
I'll say again, if you can show the polls are wrong and this is what a majority of the people in Hong Kong want, I'll be much more supportive.
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shivas.wisdom said:
Lots of people on the streets of Hong Kong right now. Not all of them waving American flags.
https://crimethinc.com/2019/06/22/hong-kong-anarchists-in-the-resistance-to-the-extradition-bill-an-interview
Funny you say and post that right after telling me they're not trying "to create attention-grabbing propaganda for western audiences".
True, they're not all waving American flags and most of them don't support the protests.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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austothehun said:
People hold demonstrations in the mainland but they're mainly nationalist rallies or focused on local issues (appealing to the national party to intervene). Good luck criticizing the national party without repercussions.
That's pretty easy to disprove.
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austothehun said:
The characterization of the earlier events isn't really accurate. The initial protests were met with excessive force by police.
I think police have a right to use force when bricks and firebombs are being thrown at them.
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austothehun said:
This fueled more demonstrations calling for an independent investigation into the police. Then the extradition bill was tabled, not dropped, which is another part of why the protests are continuing.
What's the difference between being "tabled" and "dropped"? Do you think if it were "dropped" it could never be brought up again?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm sure there's some unprovoked violence but there's no denying the police response is out of control at this point, especially after last night's subway attacks.
I'll deny the Chinese police behave worse than those in the US, who kill close to 1,000 people per year. If you can show videos that include what happened right before any police attack, then you might have a point.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
And if the protestors starting attacking the police for trying to keep the peace, and the police fought back, would you blame them?
If by "keeping the peace" you mean indiscriminately attacking protesters then yes.
No, I mean being attacked for keeping the peace. Again, if you can show videos of indiscriminate attacks that include what was happening before the police attacks, then you might have a point.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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shivas.wisdom
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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shivas.wisdom said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
let's compare the evidence of Western interference in Hong Kong (or Crimea, or Venezuela, etc) with evidence of Russian interference in the US, shall we?
Do a Google search for NED funding of Hong Kong and you'll find it's pretty clear the US is providing funding for protests in a foreign country.
I remember having a conversation with you about a wave of repression towards Russian anarchists resulting in arrests and torture, and your claim was that they were intentionally getting themselves into this position all in order to create attention-grabbing propaganda for western audiences. I highly doubt an anarchist group is receiving NED funds.
Then you tell me who's getting the NED money. I don't know if it's going to an anarchist group. But we've definitely have been known to fund shady groups before.
I'm pretty sure the onus is on you to prove the protesters you wish to denounce as US puppets are receiving these funds, and that these funds compromise their actions. You refuse to believe that Russia sent soldiers into Crimea because we don't have absolute proof (only a whole lot of coincidences), so I'm going to hold you to that exact same standard.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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shivas.wisdom said:
It's incredibly paternalistic because you seem to be of the opinion that any protest movement that could be construed as a aligning with US geopolitical interests, is the result of US manipulation rather than local indignation.
No, that's not true. I am of the opinion that if a protest movement is financially supported WITH US funding, THEN the US is trying to manipulate things in foreign countries.
Okay that doesn't contradict what I wrote, nor does it defend your tendency to use claims of US support to invalidate local indignation.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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shivas.wisdom said:
It would be as condescending as someone suggestion the Occupy movement was the result of outside influence because Soros had provided funding for several of the participating groups.
But Soros is a US citizen. The United States is not a citizen of Hong Kong.
My point being is that the Occupy movement has legitimate grassroots criticisms, and an attempt to invalidate that as manipulation because some participating groups received outside funding would be wrong. In the same way, the people of Hong Kong have legitimate criticisms, and the fact that some participants are receiving US fundings doesn't invalidate these criticisms against losing autonomy to China.
If you want to be pedantic with regards to Soros and foreign intervention, it's like when right-wingers in Canada try to invalidate environmental activists because a few groups receive funding from US organizations.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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shivas.wisdom said:
I take it for granted that any country with the means participates in geopolitics. In this case, something that weakens the Chinese State would probably be supported by the US - but why should that support invalidate legitimate grievances that (even if just a minority of) the people of Hong Kong have against losing what limited autonomy they currently have to a highly authoritarian state? That's why it's paternalistic; these people are merely US pawns without personal agency in your position.
I'll say again, if you can show the polls are wrong and this is what a majority of the people in Hong Kong want, I'll be much more supportive.
Why would majority support be your only factor in supporting something? Indigenous rights don't have popular support, but it's still the right thing - do you oppose indigenous rights because it lacks popular support? Nazi Germany had popular support for a while there; would you have quoted polls showing the German population opposed Ghetto uprisings rather than support the moral minority? The state of China undeniably denies basic human rights, and the people protesting in Hong Kong wish to prevent this from coming to Hong Kong. You shouldn't need polls to tell you that these people are justified in their response. I set my own compass by morality, not majority.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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shivas.wisdom said:
Lots of people on the streets of Hong Kong right now. Not all of them waving American flags.
https://crimethinc.com/2019/06/22/hong-kong-anarchists-in-the-resistance-to-the-extradition-bill-an-interview
Funny you say and post that right after telling me they're not trying "to create attention-grabbing propaganda for western audiences".
First, that statement was in response to your claim that people in Russia were intentionally being tortured by police in order to create western propaganda, which is a ridiculous notion - the cost/benefit of a graffiti message gaining international awareness is much more realistic. Second, don't confuse anarchist media (an international effort) with Western media - we generally have awareness of anarchist activities around the globe, but there is very little crossover with traditional Western media.
Having international awareness is pretty important in Hong Kong right now, just as it in pretty important to any protest movement. I hope you understand there is a significant difference between having an entire movement based around getting arrested and tortured in order to profit from the Western propaganda, compared to a protest movement based around local politics that uses graffiti as a method of spreading messages both near and far.
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Skellies
Registered: 06/02/15
Posts: 823
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Last seen: 5 days, 10 hours
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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austothehun said:
People hold demonstrations in the mainland but they're mainly nationalist rallies or focused on local issues (appealing to the national party to intervene). Good luck criticizing the national party without repercussions.
That's pretty easy to disprove.
The cases in that article support my point. They're all about local issues.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What's the difference between being "tabled" and "dropped"? Do you think if it were "dropped" it could never be brought up again?
They would have to re introduce it, which would be a more lengthy process. Lam actually suggested withdrawing it but Beijing told her no.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'll deny the Chinese police behave worse than those in the US, who kill close to 1,000 people per year. If you can show videos that include what happened right before any police attack, then you might have a point.
That's a whataboutism but okay I'll bite. Basically the Chinese police might kill very few people themselves, but once someone is arrested they can be executed by the judicial system for numerous crimes including subversion or dissidence. The amount of executions carried our in China is a state secret but it's estimated to be in the thousands. We also have no idea how many people are killed by police either. We can't really accurately compare liberal states to authoritarian ones that have no transparency.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I think police have a right to use force when bricks and firebombs are being thrown at them.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
No, I mean being attacked for keeping the peace. Again, if you can show videos of indiscriminate attacks that include what was happening before the police attacks, then you might have a point.
Here's a few.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Registered: 03/16/05
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Last seen: 7 months, 6 days
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shivas.wisdom said:
I'm pretty sure the onus is on you to prove the protesters you wish to denounce as US puppets are receiving these funds, and that these funds compromise their actions.
If a Google link isn't sufficient for you, you can go to the NED site. Or how about these from Ron Paul's site:
American Govt., NGOS Fuel and Fund Hong Kong Anti-Extradition Protests: Some of the groups involved receive significant funding from the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), a CIA soft-power cutout that has played a critical role in innumerable US regime-change operations.
Problems Arise with Washington’s Latest ‘Color Revolution’ in Hong Kong: the opposition’s core leaders, parties, organizations, and media operations are all tied directly to Washington DC via the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) and corporate foundations like Open Society Foundation. Hong Kong’s opposition has already long been exposed as US-sponsored.
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shivas.wisdom said:
You refuse to believe that Russia sent soldiers into Crimea because we don't have absolute proof (only a whole lot of coincidences), so I'm going to hold you to that exact same standard.
Russia legally had soldiers in Sevastopol Crimea that very well may have been called upon to keep the peace in Crimea. You'll remember that only 6 people died in the Crimean 'conflict'.
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shivas.wisdom said:
My point being is that the Occupy movement has legitimate grassroots criticisms, and an attempt to invalidate that as manipulation because some participating groups received outside funding would be wrong. In the same way, the people of Hong Kong have legitimate criticisms, and the fact that some participants are receiving US fundings doesn't invalidate these criticisms against losing autonomy to China.
If you want to be pedantic with regards to Soros and foreign intervention, it's like when right-wingers in Canada try to invalidate environmental activists because a few groups receive funding from US organizations.
Why would majority support be your only factor in supporting something? Indigenous rights don't have popular support, but it's still the right thing - do you oppose indigenous rights because it lacks popular support?
Nazi Germany had popular support for a while there; would you have quoted polls showing the German population opposed Ghetto uprisings rather than support the moral minority?
So you're saying it's ok to intervene in foreign countries if you believe in what you're doing? That it would be ok for Russia to intervene in the US if they believed what they were doing was in our best interests?
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shivas.wisdom said:
The state of China undeniably denies basic human rights, and the people protesting in Hong Kong wish to prevent this from coming to Hong Kong. You shouldn't need polls to tell you that these people are justified in their response. I set my own compass by morality, not majority.
Remind me what basic human rights Hong Kong is in danger of losing? This all started because Hong Kong didn't want to extradite a known murderer to China for killing his girlfriend.
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shivas.wisdom said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Funny you say and post that right after telling me they're not trying "to create attention-grabbing propaganda for western audiences".
First, that statement was in response to your claim that people in Russia were intentionally being tortured by police in order to create western propaganda, which is a ridiculous notion - the cost/benefit of a graffiti message gaining international awareness is much more realistic. Second, don't confuse anarchist media (an international effort) with Western media - we generally have awareness of anarchist activities around the globe, but there is very little crossover with traditional Western media.
Having international awareness is pretty important in Hong Kong right now, just as it in pretty important to any protest movement. I hope you understand there is a significant difference between having an entire movement based around getting arrested and tortured in order to profit from the Western propaganda, compared to a protest movement based around local politics that uses graffiti as a method of spreading messages both near and far.
Both want to gain international attention, which as you admit, is "pretty important". I'm not seeing the difference.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Registered: 03/16/05
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austothehun said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That's pretty easy to disprove.
The cases in that article support my point. They're all about local issues.
Ah, so protest in China is ok, so long as you're not protesting things like separating from the mainland?
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austothehun said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What's the difference between being "tabled" and "dropped"? Do you think if it were "dropped" it could never be brought up again?
They would have to re introduce it, which would be a more lengthy process.
They'd have to dust off old paperwork that's already completed?
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austothehun said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I think police have a right to use force when bricks and firebombs are being thrown at them.
Again, if you can show videos of indiscriminate attacks that include what was happening before the police attacks, then you might have a point.
Here's a few.
Those actually prove my point. Police were responding to potential threats against them, including bricks and firebombs being thrown at them (it's in your video!)
I might agree in some cases the responses were a bit harsh, but when you're up against thousands of people, some of whom are violent, you sometimes worry about your own safety.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Skellies
Registered: 06/02/15
Posts: 823
Loc: The Dream
Last seen: 5 days, 10 hours
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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austothehun said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That's pretty easy to disprove.
The cases in that article support my point. They're all about local issues.
Ah, so protest in China is ok, so long as you're not protesting things like separating from the mainland?
Or other issues on the national level. It's very limited.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
They'd have to dust off old paperwork that's already completed?
The legislative process in HK is time consuming. It involves amendments, committee hearings, and multiple votes. By removing the bill, they would have to restart it.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I might agree in some cases the responses were a bit harsh, but when you're up against thousands of people, some of whom are violent, you sometimes worry about your own safety.
It's unjustified use of force against non violent members. Police don't have the right to target anyone they want in a massive protest because a few people are violent. It's their job to handle situations like that without attacking innocents. This is why there should be an independent investigation into their conduct (which is one of the things protesters are calling for).
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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austothehun said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
so protest in China is ok, so long as you're not protesting things like separating from the mainland?
Or other issues on the national level. It's very limited.
You sound like an expert. What's a specific limitation that the Chinese people should be concerned about?
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austothehun said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
They'd have to dust off old paperwork that's already completed?
The legislative process in HK is time consuming. It involves amendments, committee hearings, and multiple votes. By removing the bill, they would have to restart it.
Wouldn't those be required regardless? Or can they can just skip all those things for items that are 'tabled'?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Police don't have the right to target anyone they want in a massive protest because a few people are violent. It's their job to handle situations like that without attacking innocents.
I agree. I'd love to see the same level of passion from conservatives when police target innocent blacks and minorities in the US.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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shivas.wisdom
בּ
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,473
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 18 hours, 27 minutes
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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shivas.wisdom said:
I'm pretty sure the onus is on you to prove the protesters you wish to denounce as US puppets are receiving these funds, and that these funds compromise their actions.
If a Google link isn't sufficient for you, you can go to the NED site. Or how about these from Ron Paul's site:
American Govt., NGOS Fuel and Fund Hong Kong Anti-Extradition Protests: Some of the groups involved receive significant funding from the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), a CIA soft-power cutout that has played a critical role in innumerable US regime-change operations.
Problems Arise with Washington’s Latest ‘Color Revolution’ in Hong Kong: the opposition’s core leaders, parties, organizations, and media operations are all tied directly to Washington DC via the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) and corporate foundations like Open Society Foundation. Hong Kong’s opposition has already long been exposed as US-sponsored.
"Some of the groups," doesn't imply that the entire movement is a product of US manipulation - only some participating groups are receiving NED funds. "Hong Kong’s opposition has already long been exposed as US-sponsored," refers to the "core leadership of the 2014 so-called “Occupy Central” protests, also known as the “Umbrella Revolution," not the present movement. I'm an anarchist so I'm forever hesitant of those who would seek to place themselves as leaders of a movement, in large because of the risk of co-option - but my understanding is that the founding architects of Occupy Central, the platform that coordinates the marches - a broad alliance of political parties, NGOs, and the like - is not the ideological spearhead and architect of this “movement." That platform has been widely denounced, discredited, and mocked by the “direct action” tendencies that are forming on the ground in real time. To quote a Hong Kong anarchist:" If only tankies would stop treating everybody like mindless neo-colonial sheep acting at the cryptic behest of Western imperialist intelligence."
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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shivas.wisdom said:
My point being is that the Occupy movement has legitimate grassroots criticisms, and an attempt to invalidate that as manipulation because some participating groups received outside funding would be wrong. In the same way, the people of Hong Kong have legitimate criticisms, and the fact that some participants are receiving US fundings doesn't invalidate these criticisms against losing autonomy to China.
If you want to be pedantic with regards to Soros and foreign intervention, it's like when right-wingers in Canada try to invalidate environmental activists because a few groups receive funding from US organizations.
Why would majority support be your only factor in supporting something? Indigenous rights don't have popular support, but it's still the right thing - do you oppose indigenous rights because it lacks popular support?
Nazi Germany had popular support for a while there; would you have quoted polls showing the German population opposed Ghetto uprisings rather than support the moral minority?
So you're saying it's ok to intervene in foreign countries if you believe in what you're doing? That it would be ok for Russia to intervene in the US if they believed what they were doing was in our best interests?
I think you should answer the questions I proposed first. You state that, until you see a poll showing majority support, you will not support protests in Hong Kong. That same logic implies that you do not support indigenous rights, and that you would not have supported ghetto uprisings in Nazi Germany. Does this correctly describe your position? If not, how do you explain that inconsistencies?
And yes, to answer your question, I have more respect for human rights than I do for national sovereignty. I think the people who traveled to Spain during the civil war to fight against the fascists were 100% justified. I think the people currently travelling to Rojava to fight islamo-fascists are 100% justified. My compass is set by my perception of right and wrong, not by rule of law or majority, because I trust myself more than any impersonal system of governance.
As for granting states the same power, I am an anarchist and of the opinion that states rarely work in the interests of the people, so probably not. In the same way I am a proponent of deplatforming fascists, but would never want the state to hold that power.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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shivas.wisdom said:
The state of China undeniably denies basic human rights, and the people protesting in Hong Kong wish to prevent this from coming to Hong Kong. You shouldn't need polls to tell you that these people are justified in their response. I set my own compass by morality, not majority.
Remind me what basic human rights Hong Kong is in danger of losing? This all started because Hong Kong didn't want to extradite a known murderer to China for killing his girlfriend.
Are you serious? China is a highly authoritarian state, with widespread censorship, political prisoners, and no real democracy. Just to name the first things that come to mind. Making statements like this really only shows how biased you are in these discussions. It isn't a one way road between being pro-US or pro-China - you don't have to unreservedly support the Chinese state to oppose US imperialism.
As for not wanting to extradite that individual, my guess would be because any precedent of extradition to a country well know for its political prisoners is to be avoided.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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shivas.wisdom said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Funny you say and post that right after telling me they're not trying "to create attention-grabbing propaganda for western audiences".
First, that statement was in response to your claim that people in Russia were intentionally being tortured by police in order to create western propaganda, which is a ridiculous notion - the cost/benefit of a graffiti message gaining international awareness is much more realistic. Second, don't confuse anarchist media (an international effort) with Western media - we generally have awareness of anarchist activities around the globe, but there is very little crossover with traditional Western media.
Having international awareness is pretty important in Hong Kong right now, just as it in pretty important to any protest movement. I hope you understand there is a significant difference between having an entire movement based around getting arrested and tortured in order to profit from the Western propaganda, compared to a protest movement based around local politics that uses graffiti as a method of spreading messages both near and far.
Both want to gain international attention, which as you admit, is "pretty important". I'm not seeing the difference.
There is a significant difference between being arrested and tortured, an act with significant personal trauma, and leaving graffiti messages behind while protesting. The latter requires very little sacrifice compared to its rewards. International attention is the best protection from China pulling another Tiananmen square massacre - the Chinese state had repeatedly shown a tendency to violently suppress revolutionary movements. How does seeking international attention invalidate what's happening in Hong Kong?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 7 months, 6 days
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
"Some of the groups," doesn't imply that the entire movement is a product of US manipulation - only some participating groups are receiving NED funds.
To quote a Hong Kong anarchist:" If only tankies would stop treating everybody like mindless neo-colonial sheep acting at the cryptic behest of Western imperialist intelligence."
You state that, until you see a poll showing majority support, you will not support protests in Hong Kong. That same logic implies that you do not support indigenous rights, and that you would not have supported ghetto uprisings in Nazi Germany. Does this correctly describe your position? If not, how do you explain that inconsistencies?
I personally see the CIA as little more than enablers for American billionaires to earn money abroad.
As I said berfore, the protests stemmed becuase some in Hong Kong didn't want to extradite a murderer to China. China still has the death penalty, so I understand the concern. Is it up to the CIA to determine whether extradition to China is just or not? Given that we have the death penalty ourselves, I'd say not.
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shivas.wisdom said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Remind me what basic human rights Hong Kong is in danger of losing? This all started because Hong Kong didn't want to extradite a known murderer to China for killing his girlfriend.
Are you serious? China is a highly authoritarian state, with widespread censorship, political prisoners, and no real democracy. Just to name the first things that come to mind.
Yes, I'm serious. Have you read the 5 demands of the Hong Kong protestors? The one I can really get behind is Universal suffrage, but first I'd want that in the US. I mean, do you remember voting on Medicare for All? On removing the cap on Social Security? On eliminating the death penalty? On the legalization of mushrooms?
We don't even have a true democracy in the US as far as I'm cocnerned. We serve our oligarchs, er... I mean our benefactors.
Speaking of mistreatment of prisoners, take a look at Bradley Manning or Julian Assange. It's not smart to expose Government corruption.
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shivas.wisdom said:
There is a significant difference between being arrested and tortured, an act with significant personal trauma, and leaving graffiti messages behind while protesting. The latter requires very little sacrifice compared to its rewards. International attention is the best protection from China pulling another Tiananmen square massacre - the Chinese state had repeatedly shown a tendency to violently suppress revolutionary movements. How does seeking international attention invalidate what's happening in Hong Kong?
Torture is illegal in Russia. It happens sometimes, just as it does in the US, but it's not standard/expected practice. Hell, the US even outsources torture to foreign countries.
In summary, I'm fine with Hong Kong protesting to their heart's content, but I don't think the CIA gives one shit about them, and should stop giving them money.
--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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shivas.wisdom
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Registered: 02/19/09
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You're not even trying to debate in good faith. I expected better from you. You continue to neglect to answer questions given, and for the third time now I will directly pose these questions to you: You state that, until you see a poll showing majority support, you will not support protests in Hong Kong. That same logic implies that you do not support indigenous rights and that you would not have supported ghetto uprisings in Nazi Germany, as neither of these enjoy[ed] majority support. Does this correctly describe your position? If not, how do you explain the inconsistencies?
Then on to this response where you completely ignore my criticisms, and continue to steamroll ahead with your claim that the protests in Hong Kong are the result of US manipulation rather than local indignation:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
"Some of the groups," doesn't imply that the entire movement is a product of US manipulation - only some participating groups are receiving NED funds. "Hong Kong’s opposition has already long been exposed as US-sponsored," refers to the "core leadership of the 2014 so-called “Occupy Central” protests, also known as the “Umbrella Revolution," not the present movement. I'm an anarchist so I'm forever hesitant of those who would seek to place themselves as leaders of a movement, in large because of the risk of co-option - but my understanding is that the founding architects of Occupy Central, the platform that coordinates the marches - a broad alliance of political parties, NGOs, and the like - is not the ideological spearhead and architect of this “movement." That platform has been widely denounced, discredited, and mocked by the “direct action” tendencies that are forming on the ground in real time. To quote a Hong Kong anarchist:" If only tankies would stop treating everybody like mindless neo-colonial sheep acting at the cryptic behest of Western imperialist intelligence."
You state that, until you see a poll showing majority support, you will not support protests in Hong Kong. That same logic implies that you do not support indigenous rights, and that you would not have supported ghetto uprisings in Nazi Germany. Does this correctly describe your position? If not, how do you explain that inconsistencies?
I personally see the CIA as little more than enablers for American billionaires to earn money abroad.
As I said berfore, the protests stemmed becuase some in Hong Kong didn't want to extradite a murderer to China. China still has the death penalty, so I understand the concern. Is it up to the CIA to determine whether extradition to China is just or not? Given that we have the death penalty ourselves, I'd say not.
Not only that, but you severely misrepresent the cause of the protests. Do you really think "becuase some in Hong Kong didn't want to extradite a murderer to China," is an accurate description, rather than say "because of a bill that would have made it possible to extradite people from Hong Kong to China, where the Communist party controls the courts, and concern the law would be used by authorities to target political enemies"?
Then we get into this wild whataboutism of a response rather than see you acknowledge the severely authoritarian nature of the Chinese state:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Remind me what basic human rights Hong Kong is in danger of losing? This all started because Hong Kong didn't want to extradite a known murderer to China for killing his girlfriend.
Are you serious? China is a highly authoritarian state, with widespread censorship, political prisoners, and no real democracy. Just to name the first things that come to mind.
Yes, I'm serious. Have you read the 5 demands of the Hong Kong protestors? The one I can really get behind is Universal suffrage, but first I'd want that in the US. I mean, do you remember voting on Medicare for All? On removing the cap on Social Security? On eliminating the death penalty? On the legalization of mushrooms?
We don't even have a true democracy in the US as far as I'm cocnerned. We serve our oligarchs, er... I mean our benefactors.
Speaking of mistreatment of prisoners, take a look at Bradley Manning or Julian Assange. It's not smart to expose Government corruption.
First off, what does the situation in the USA have to do with the people who are living and protesting in Hong Kong? Are they supposed to wait until the USA has "true democracy" before fighting for themselves? It's an undeniable fact that losing what limited autonomy Hong Kong currently enjoys will be a step away from basic human rights and freedoms.
Second, I believe in international solidarity. Of course I should dedicate the majority of my energy and focus on my own home turf, but that doesn't mean I will ignore my comrades across borders. It's not a one way street. I can express solidarity with an international working class without compromising the struggle at home; and you don't have to support the Chinese state to oppose US imperialism.
More whataboutism and red herrings rather than responding to the question posed:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
There is a significant difference between being arrested and tortured, an act with significant personal trauma, and leaving graffiti messages behind while protesting. The latter requires very little sacrifice compared to its rewards. International attention is the best protection from China pulling another Tiananmen square massacre - the Chinese state had repeatedly shown a tendency to violently suppress revolutionary movements. How does seeking international attention invalidate what's happening in Hong Kong?
Torture is illegal in Russia. It happens sometimes, just as it does in the US, but it's not standard/expected practice. Hell, the US even outsources torture to foreign countries.
It doesn't matter if it also happens in the USA - it doesn't matter if it's not standard practice in Russia - it still happened and you shifted the blame to the victims by claiming they had intentionally put themselves into this position in order to gain international attention, as if that would even excuse things.
You also, once again, neglected to answer a direct question: how does seeking international attention invalidate what's happening in Hong Kong?
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
In summary, I'm fine with Hong Kong protesting to their heart's content, but I don't think the CIA gives one shit about them, and should stop giving them money.
Statements you made previously, like "if you can show the polls are wrong and this is what a majority of the people in Hong Kong want, I'll be much more supportive," seem to indicate that you hold back support, so does being "fine" imply a state of neutral opinion? Perhaps you can clarify this. Otherwise, I agree that the CIA should butt out of things and the people should always reject so-called leaders who attempt to hijack revolutionary momentum, but let's just remind ourselves that you never established this movement to be a product of CIA meddling.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
You're not even trying to debate in good faith. I expected better from you. You continue to neglect to answer questions given, and for the third time now I will directly pose these questions to you: You state that, until you see a poll showing majority support, you will not support protests in Hong Kong. That same logic implies that you do not support indigenous rights and that you would not have supported ghetto uprisings in Nazi Germany, as neither of these enjoy[ed] majority support. Does this correctly describe your position? If not, how do you explain the inconsistencies?
Perhaps it's you who is "not even trying to debate in good faith". Your examples compare targeted ethnic minority groups against issues in Hong Kong that could impact anyone living there:
Hong Kong protesters are calling for:
- The complete withdrawal of the proposed extradition bill
- The government to withdraw the use of the word “riot” in relation to protests
- The unconditional release of arrested protesters and charges against them dropped
- An independent inquiry into police behaviour
- Implementation of genuine universal suffrage
Maybe the majority are ok with criminals being extradited to China, and think that the police are doing an adequate job with out of line protestors? To answer your question, yes of course I'd support targeted minority groups, but that's not the issue here.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
you completely ignore my criticisms, and continue to steamroll ahead with your claim that the protests in Hong Kong are the result of US manipulation rather than local indignation
Yes, I'm sure there are people who would want things like the extradition bill removed even without CIA involvement. I'm just saying I don't think the CIA should be involved in other country's business. They don't have a very good human rights track record, and I'm sure they're there for nefarious reasons.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
you severely misrepresent the cause of the protests. Do you really think "becuase some in Hong Kong didn't want to extradite a murderer to China," is an accurate description, rather than say "because of a bill that would have made it possible to extradite people from Hong Kong to China, where the Communist party controls the courts, and concern the law would be used by authorities to target political enemies"?
What do you mean by "political enemies"? People who are trying to secede from China?
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
First off, what does the situation in the USA have to do with the people who are living and protesting in Hong Kong? Are they supposed to wait until the USA has "true democracy" before fighting for themselves? It's an undeniable fact that losing what limited autonomy Hong Kong currently enjoys will be a step away from basic human rights and freedoms.
Second, I believe in international solidarity. Of course I should dedicate the majority of my energy and focus on my own home turf, but that doesn't mean I will ignore my comrades across borders. It's not a one way street. I can express solidarity with an international working class without compromising the struggle at home; and you don't have to support the Chinese state to oppose US imperialism.
And again, if the majority of Hong Kong is ok with Communist China, then I believe it's really their choice.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
It doesn't matter if it also happens in the USA - it doesn't matter if it's not standard practice in Russia - it still happened and you shifted the blame to the victims by claiming they had intentionally put themselves into this position in order to gain international attention, as if that would even excuse things.
You also, once again, neglected to answer a direct question: how does seeking international attention invalidate what's happening in Hong Kong?
I NEVER blamed victims for being tortured, I blamed them for wanting extra publicity by going to unsanctioned locations in Russia to hold their protests.
And again, I believe CIA help is a lot different than other international help (which I think you would agree with).
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
In summary, I'm fine with Hong Kong protesting to their heart's content, but I don't think the CIA gives one shit about them, and should stop giving them money.
Statements you made previously, like "if you can show the polls are wrong and this is what a majority of the people in Hong Kong want, I'll be much more supportive," seem to indicate that you hold back support, so does being "fine" imply a state of neutral opinion? Perhaps you can clarify this. Otherwise, I agree that the CIA should butt out of things and the people should always reject so-called leaders who attempt to hijack revolutionary momentum, but let's just remind ourselves that you never established this movement to be a product of CIA meddling.
Again, I think its up to the people to decide for themselves what they want, so the majority opinion to me DOES matter (if an ethnic minority group isn't being targeted as per your examples).
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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There are a lot of videos of protestors getting out of control on alternative media sites, but here's an article from a mainstream site:
‘Wanton destruction’ and economic costs on Hong Kong may make people less sympathetic to protests
I'm posting this in case you don't believe the protestors and supporters may be in the minority.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (09/03/19 11:26 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
austothehun said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What's the difference between being "tabled" and "dropped"? Do you think if it were "dropped" it could never be brought up again?
They would have to re introduce it, which would be a more lengthy process. Lam actually suggested withdrawing it but Beijing told her no.
It's been withdrawn today to appease perceptions: Hong Kong's leader withdraws extradition bill that ignited mass protests
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Brian Jones
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It sounds like the pro-democracy people are very skeptical of this gesture.
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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
Brian Jones said:
It sounds like the pro-democracy people are very skeptical of this gesture.
As I said before, it can brought back at any time. But for now, it's been withdrawn.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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The Ecstatic
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The response from the HK authority (and the CPC) has made it clear that this bill isn’t going away for long. I’m sure the protesters know this.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
The response from the HK authority (and the CPC) has made it clear that this bill isn’t going away for long. I’m sure the protesters know this.
What response are you referring to?
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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The Ecstatic
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The response to the protests in general
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Got a link to "the response from the HK authority (and the CPC)"? I just want to stay educated on what's going on.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Here is where the question of whether majority rule should count or not comes into play:
Opposition losing support of public opinion
Quote:
Project Citizens Foundation, co-founded by democracy icon and former chief secretary Anson Chan Fang On-sang, might now regret having hired the University of Hong Kong polling service to study the priorities local people place on various social indicators.
On a scale of zero to 10, “public order”, “rule of law” and “corruption-free practices” were rated the most important indicators with the same mean score of 9.2, while “stability” and “freedom” coming next respectively with scores of nine and 8.9. “Democracy” was rated the least important with just eight points.
A survey conducted by Hong Kong University "found that 79 per cent of respondents had confidence in the police, up from 62 per cent in 2015.... This is despite the best efforts by “yellow-ribbon” fanatics to blacken the name of the police.
None of these necessarily means the government is doing a good or even adequate job.
But it does mean the opposition can no longer assume public opinion is on its side.
Just asking the question.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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The Ecstatic
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Got a link to "the response from the HK authority (and the CPC)"? I just want to stay educated on what's going on.
Ignoring the run of the mill state violence, I think it was clear where China stands on the Chinese extradition bill, as well as certain members of the HK government.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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No link?
Technically it's not even extradition since Hong Kong is part of China, so China's original position was understandable.
But I haven't seen anything new from the HK authority or the CPC since the extradition bill was withdrawn.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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The Ecstatic
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I’m not arguing whether is understandable or not, just that their position is clear, and exists.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
I’m not arguing whether is understandable or not, just that their position is clear, and exists.
Nor am I arguing what anyone thinks about the bill (they may well still support it). I was just wodering if you had anything to support your statement that "the response from the HK authority (and the CPC) has made it clear that this bill isn’t going away for long". 
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire
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The anything is the response to the protests
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Registered: 03/26/12
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leader of the Hong Kong government wants out of the position, but isn't allowed
and after a secret recording of her talking about it came to light, she withdrew the extradition bill
I dunno why people are tracking her in public tho
they should just hang out outside her house and chant "we know where you live"
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JHOVA
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Registered: 02/17/17
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https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/how-china-weaponizes-mass-migration-against-hong-kong/
Quote:
How China Weaponizes Mass Migration Against Hong Kong
Protesters say Beijing is forcing a 'national identity' on the island by surging in mainlanders loyal to the Communist party.
By ALESSANDRA BOCCHI • September 5, 2019
A policeman looks on as people queue up to test ride the new Lok Ma Chau train line which officially opened in Hong Kong, 15 August 2007, creating a second rail link between Hong Kong and the southern Chinese city of Shenzhen across the border. (Photo credit: SAMANTHA SIN/AFP/Getty Images)
HONG KONG–China has instituted an immigration scheme that allows 150 Mainlanders a day to migrate to Hong Kong and local officials have no power to vet or control who comes. Protesters say the program is being administered by the Chinese Communist Party in order to dilute Hong Kong identity and make the island more pro-Beijing.
What’s viewed in Hong Kong as a forced immigration program has actually been fueling tensions between Mainlanders and Hongkongers for years, but the protests have brought the issue into stark relief. Many new immigrants from mainland China tend to support Beijing, while native Hongkongers have been backing the anti-government protests for nearly five solid months.
“China’s government is using immigration from mainland China as a weapon against Hong Kong to make it pro-Beijing,” a young protester who did not want to be identified told this writer. (All the people interviewed for this article asked to remain anonymous for security reasons.)
Close to 1.5 million mainland Chinese immigrants have moved to the city since Hong Kong became part of China in 1997, and now make up about 20 percent of Hong Kong’s population. “It’s becoming very difficult,” a protester said. “The high number of immigrants drains our public resources—from health care to public housing and education.”
Advertisement
Thousands of pregnant women from mainland China have migrated to Hong Kong because it allowed their children to obtain permanent residency there—including access to public housing and free health care and education.
While a law was passed in 2012 to limit the number of mainland women without Hong Kong ties from coming to the island to give birth, a Chinese think tank has proposed scrapping it so that 25,000 Chinese babies a year can counter the region’s low birth rates.
Hong Kong’s vast and efficient welfare system, combined with a vibrant free market, is a legacy of British rule, which ended in 1997. Hong Kong has since been ranked as having the best health care system in the world by the Bloomberg Healthcare Efficiency Index. But according to critical Hong Kong locals, the drain on medical resources from mainland Chinese immigration has caused significant issues, leaving vulnerable people, like pensioners, without adequate care.
The rise in housing costs has also become an alarming problem, due in part to mainland Chinese elites gobbling up prime real estate. A staggering 44.7 percent of residents in Hong Kong live in public housing.
Hong Kong: There Will be Blood
Hong Kong Launches Massive Resistance Against China
Many Hongkongers also worry that mass immigration from mainland China risks threatening the region’s unique culture. “Mass immigration is a deliberate policy by the Chinese government to commit cultural genocide against Hong Kong,” another protester charged. In 2017, Beijing mandated that Chinese history be compulsory for all children ages 12 to 14. One Hong Kong critic at the time called it a policy that “treats history teaching as an ideological weapon that could beat down the anti-Chinese sentiments for Hong Kong independence.”
“The rationale is not pedagogical but patently political, i.e. to foster a blindingly patriotic, triumphalist sense of Chinese identity,” wrote Henry Kwok in October 2017.
Hongkongers speak Cantonese, a Chinese dialect, while mainland Chinese mostly speak Mandarin. In addition, while official documents and signs across the region still have English translations, the number of people speaking English has diminished to less than half of the overall population.
The use of English is another factor that distinguishes the anti-government protests from the pro-Beijing counter-protests. The anti-government crowds will sometimes chant in English, “Stand with Hong Kong” and “Free Hong Kong.” The University of Hong Kong, the first university established by Britain in East Asia, overwhelmingly supports the protests. A monument of Tiananmen Square—where students protesting for democracy in mainland China in 1989 were violently repressed by the government—stands at the center of the campus.
However, in many cases, immigrants from mainland China have integrated. And those who have tend to support the anti-government protests. “I moved to Hong Kong, so I will definitely vote against the Communist Party,” said one of the protesters, adding, “if not, why even emigrate in the first place?” The issue Hongkongers have with mainland Chinese immigrants isn’t ethnocentrism, but rather immigration used as a tool to undermine their autonomy.
Of course, many Westerners will find Hong Kong’s issues with mass immigration relatable. For the past decade, populist leaders in Western countries have made similar arguments against influxes of immigrants from abroad. Such figures, like President Donald Trump, are often defined as “far-right” by the establishment press. But this dichotomy of left versus right does not exist in Hong Kong. Their division is between pro- and anti-Beijing, and many protesters feel that immigration is being used by the Chinese Communist Party as a cudgel against their democracy.
Hong Kong has a unique culture, a combination of both Western and Chinese values. A plaque engraved on the floor of Kowloon, one of the three main regions of Hong Kong, says: “The distinctive environment of Hong Kong, while neither Chinese nor Western, but a mix of the two, is just like an ocean that embodies a hundred rivers.” Should mass immigration continue without integration, the region might lose its Western values and gradually assimilate into mainland China
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🅃 🄴 🄰 🄼 🄲 🄻 🄸 🄽 🄶 🅆 🅁 🄰 🄿
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26170264 - 09/05/19 09:09 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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http://www.thetibetpost.com/en/news/tibet/1021-han-chinese-migrants-killing-tibets-way-of-life
Quote:
Dharamshala: Tibet is in a state of unrest after thousands of Han Chinese migrants, including workers, investors, merchants, teachers and soldiers, have poured into a remote part of the country. According to The New York Post, Chinese leaders see development, along with an enhanced security presence, as the key to pacifying the Buddhist dominant region.
Beijing invested three billion dollars in the Tibet Autonomous Region in 2009, a 31 percent increase over 2008. Tibet's gross domestic product is growing at a 12 percent annual rate, faster than China's average. Although the influx of money and people has ushered new prosperity, it has also deepened resentment among many Tibetans.
Many world experts say that economic development in urban Tibet is very much a reality, however, it poses the question: for whose sake has this development taken place and on whose terms?
According to a 1990s census, outside of the traditional Tibetan "Bharkor" market there are around 3,500 to 4,000 shops and restaurants in Lhasa, but Tibetans own only 400-450 of them, leaving the remaining 85% under non-Tibetan (usually Han Chinese) ownership. As a result, Tibetans have been economically marginalized and deprived of their own fair share.Chinese officials have claimed "Tibetans make up more than 95 percent of the region's 2.9 million people," but refuse to give estimates on Han migrants, who are not registered residents.
As stated earlier, one of the primary targets of subsidies is urbanization. Like other towns, the city of Lhasa has expanded and the population has increased from 30,000 in 1950s to 200,000 in 1998. Though these figures seem impressive, it is again necessary to look at the finer details of the statistics to understand who, in fact, is benefiting from this urbanization. It is estimated that as much as 60-70% of the population in Lhasa is now Chinese. Not only do they dominate private businesses, but they also occupy most government-related employment. "Approximately 95 percent of official Chinese immigrants are employed" in state- owned enterprises.
okay, will stop now 
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
Tantrika said:
leader of the Hong Kong government wants out of the position, but isn't allowed
That's not what Carrie Lam said, it's what the guy in the video said. She said "If I had a choice, the first thing I would do is quit". There could be a number of reasons she decided not to quit outside of not being allowed to by the Government. She clearly stated that she never tended a resignation, and I see no reason not to believe her. The video is full of logical errors, which I'd be happy to point out if at least a few people said they were interested.
Interestingly, he said "I'm going to play the whole four minute recording for you", but you can clearly see that the video's been cut/edited. Maybe he got the "whole video" after it was already edited?
Quote:
Tantrika said:
I dunno why people are tracking her in public tho
they should just hang out outside her house and chant "we know where you live"
People track public figures everywhere. Do you think Trump could just walk into a barber shop without being outed?
I still would like to know what percentage of people support the protests. Everything I found says it's a minority, but if you have something different, feel free to share.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26170472 - 09/05/19 11:39 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/how-china-weaponizes-mass-migration-against-hong-kong/
Quote:
How China Weaponizes Mass Migration Against Hong Kong
Protesters say Beijing is forcing a 'national identity' on the island by surging in mainlanders loyal to the Communist party.
By ALESSANDRA BOCCHI • September 5, 2019
A policeman looks on as people queue up to test ride the new Lok Ma Chau train line which officially opened in Hong Kong, 15 August 2007, creating a second rail link between Hong Kong and the southern Chinese city of Shenzhen across the border. (Photo credit: SAMANTHA SIN/AFP/Getty Images)
HONG KONG–China has instituted an immigration scheme that allows 150 Mainlanders a day to migrate to Hong Kong and local officials have no power to vet or control who comes. Protesters say the program is being administered by the Chinese Communist Party in order to dilute Hong Kong identity and make the island more pro-Beijing.
What’s viewed in Hong Kong as a forced immigration program has actually been fueling tensions between Mainlanders and Hongkongers for years, but the protests have brought the issue into stark relief. Many new immigrants from mainland China tend to support Beijing, while native Hongkongers have been backing the anti-government protests for nearly five solid months.
“China’s government is using immigration from mainland China as a weapon against Hong Kong to make it pro-Beijing,” a young protester who did not want to be identified told this writer. (All the people interviewed for this article asked to remain anonymous for security reasons.)
Close to 1.5 million mainland Chinese immigrants have moved to the city since Hong Kong became part of China in 1997, and now make up about 20 percent of Hong Kong’s population. “It’s becoming very difficult,” a protester said. “The high number of immigrants drains our public resources—from health care to public housing and education.”
Advertisement
Thousands of pregnant women from mainland China have migrated to Hong Kong because it allowed their children to obtain permanent residency there—including access to public housing and free health care and education.
While a law was passed in 2012 to limit the number of mainland women without Hong Kong ties from coming to the island to give birth, a Chinese think tank has proposed scrapping it so that 25,000 Chinese babies a year can counter the region’s low birth rates.
Hong Kong’s vast and efficient welfare system, combined with a vibrant free market, is a legacy of British rule, which ended in 1997. Hong Kong has since been ranked as having the best health care system in the world by the Bloomberg Healthcare Efficiency Index. But according to critical Hong Kong locals, the drain on medical resources from mainland Chinese immigration has caused significant issues, leaving vulnerable people, like pensioners, without adequate care.
The rise in housing costs has also become an alarming problem, due in part to mainland Chinese elites gobbling up prime real estate. A staggering 44.7 percent of residents in Hong Kong live in public housing.
Hong Kong: There Will be Blood
Hong Kong Launches Massive Resistance Against China
Many Hongkongers also worry that mass immigration from mainland China risks threatening the region’s unique culture. “Mass immigration is a deliberate policy by the Chinese government to commit cultural genocide against Hong Kong,” another protester charged. In 2017, Beijing mandated that Chinese history be compulsory for all children ages 12 to 14. One Hong Kong critic at the time called it a policy that “treats history teaching as an ideological weapon that could beat down the anti-Chinese sentiments for Hong Kong independence.”
“The rationale is not pedagogical but patently political, i.e. to foster a blindingly patriotic, triumphalist sense of Chinese identity,” wrote Henry Kwok in October 2017.
Hongkongers speak Cantonese, a Chinese dialect, while mainland Chinese mostly speak Mandarin. In addition, while official documents and signs across the region still have English translations, the number of people speaking English has diminished to less than half of the overall population.
The use of English is another factor that distinguishes the anti-government protests from the pro-Beijing counter-protests. The anti-government crowds will sometimes chant in English, “Stand with Hong Kong” and “Free Hong Kong.” The University of Hong Kong, the first university established by Britain in East Asia, overwhelmingly supports the protests. A monument of Tiananmen Square—where students protesting for democracy in mainland China in 1989 were violently repressed by the government—stands at the center of the campus.
However, in many cases, immigrants from mainland China have integrated. And those who have tend to support the anti-government protests. “I moved to Hong Kong, so I will definitely vote against the Communist Party,” said one of the protesters, adding, “if not, why even emigrate in the first place?” The issue Hongkongers have with mainland Chinese immigrants isn’t ethnocentrism, but rather immigration used as a tool to undermine their autonomy.
Of course, many Westerners will find Hong Kong’s issues with mass immigration relatable. For the past decade, populist leaders in Western countries have made similar arguments against influxes of immigrants from abroad. Such figures, like President Donald Trump, are often defined as “far-right” by the establishment press. But this dichotomy of left versus right does not exist in Hong Kong. Their division is between pro- and anti-Beijing, and many protesters feel that immigration is being used by the Chinese Communist Party as a cudgel against their democracy.
Hong Kong has a unique culture, a combination of both Western and Chinese values. A plaque engraved on the floor of Kowloon, one of the three main regions of Hong Kong, says: “The distinctive environment of Hong Kong, while neither Chinese nor Western, but a mix of the two, is just like an ocean that embodies a hundred rivers.” Should mass immigration continue without integration, the region might lose its Western values and gradually assimilate into mainland China
There you go again blaming the immigrants.
Do you think the United States should make it illegal for people to move to other states?
Do have evidence that anyone was forced to move to Hong Kong against their will? If not, your article is clearly fake news.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
Tantrika said:
http://www.thetibetpost.com/en/news/tibet/1021-han-chinese-migrants-killing-tibets-way-of-life
Quote:
Dharamshala: Tibet is in a state of unrest after thousands of Han Chinese migrants, including workers, investors, merchants, teachers and soldiers, have poured into a remote part of the country. According to The New York Post, Chinese leaders see development, along with an enhanced security presence, as the key to pacifying the Buddhist dominant region.
Beijing invested three billion dollars in the Tibet Autonomous Region in 2009, a 31 percent increase over 2008. Tibet's gross domestic product is growing at a 12 percent annual rate, faster than China's average. Although the influx of money and people has ushered new prosperity, it has also deepened resentment among many Tibetans.
Many world experts say that economic development in urban Tibet is very much a reality, however, it poses the question: for whose sake has this development taken place and on whose terms?
According to a 1990s census, outside of the traditional Tibetan "Bharkor" market there are around 3,500 to 4,000 shops and restaurants in Lhasa, but Tibetans own only 400-450 of them, leaving the remaining 85% under non-Tibetan (usually Han Chinese) ownership. As a result, Tibetans have been economically marginalized and deprived of their own fair share.Chinese officials have claimed "Tibetans make up more than 95 percent of the region's 2.9 million people," but refuse to give estimates on Han migrants, who are not registered residents.
As stated earlier, one of the primary targets of subsidies is urbanization. Like other towns, the city of Lhasa has expanded and the population has increased from 30,000 in 1950s to 200,000 in 1998. Though these figures seem impressive, it is again necessary to look at the finer details of the statistics to understand who, in fact, is benefiting from this urbanization. It is estimated that as much as 60-70% of the population in Lhasa is now Chinese. Not only do they dominate private businesses, but they also occupy most government-related employment. "Approximately 95 percent of official Chinese immigrants are employed" in state- owned enterprises.
okay, will stop now
So China is trying to modernize Tibet? Shouldn't they be happy? It'd be interesting to see how the Tibetans feel about it. I'm sure many are quite happy they're getting new business and work. Perhaps the more separatist Tibetans wouldn't be as thrilled.
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JHOVA
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China is replacing the people of Hong Kong just like globalists are replacing Americans with central americans.
Replacement is an aggression agaunst a people and should be resisted at any cost.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26170519 - 09/05/19 12:03 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
China is replacing the people of Hong Kong...
I'll ask again - "Do have evidence that anyone was forced to move to Hong Kong against their will?"
If not, your article is clearly fake news.
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Registered: 03/26/12
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Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Tantrika said:
http://www.thetibetpost.com/en/news/tibet/1021-han-chinese-migrants-killing-tibets-way-of-life
Quote:
Dharamshala: Tibet is in a state of unrest after thousands of Han Chinese migrants, including workers, investors, merchants, teachers and soldiers, have poured into a remote part of the country. According to The New York Post, Chinese leaders see development, along with an enhanced security presence, as the key to pacifying the Buddhist dominant region.
Beijing invested three billion dollars in the Tibet Autonomous Region in 2009, a 31 percent increase over 2008. Tibet's gross domestic product is growing at a 12 percent annual rate, faster than China's average. Although the influx of money and people has ushered new prosperity, it has also deepened resentment among many Tibetans.
Many world experts say that economic development in urban Tibet is very much a reality, however, it poses the question: for whose sake has this development taken place and on whose terms?
According to a 1990s census, outside of the traditional Tibetan "Bharkor" market there are around 3,500 to 4,000 shops and restaurants in Lhasa, but Tibetans own only 400-450 of them, leaving the remaining 85% under non-Tibetan (usually Han Chinese) ownership. As a result, Tibetans have been economically marginalized and deprived of their own fair share.Chinese officials have claimed "Tibetans make up more than 95 percent of the region's 2.9 million people," but refuse to give estimates on Han migrants, who are not registered residents.
As stated earlier, one of the primary targets of subsidies is urbanization. Like other towns, the city of Lhasa has expanded and the population has increased from 30,000 in 1950s to 200,000 in 1998. Though these figures seem impressive, it is again necessary to look at the finer details of the statistics to understand who, in fact, is benefiting from this urbanization. It is estimated that as much as 60-70% of the population in Lhasa is now Chinese. Not only do they dominate private businesses, but they also occupy most government-related employment. "Approximately 95 percent of official Chinese immigrants are employed" in state- owned enterprises.
okay, will stop now
So China is trying to modernize Tibet? Shouldn't they be happy? It'd be interesting to see how the Tibetans feel about it. I'm sure many are quite happy they're getting new business and work. Perhaps the more separatist Tibetans wouldn't be as thrilled.
No, China has successfully Sinicized Tibet
The Tibetans that live there now are plenty happy with how it is going -- they are Han Chinese
should the Tibetan diaspora and community living in exile have any say in what happens on land within Chinese borders? They ran away and became refugees in other countries.
just found the article interesting because it is 9 years old and parallels the article JHOVA provided
the more things change, the more things stay the same
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
Tantrika said:
just found the article interesting because it is 9 years old and parallels the article JHOVA provided
the more things change, the more things stay the same
JHOVA has been calling for segregation, others believe in integration. It's interesting how attitudes differ depending on the country one is looking at.
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JHOVA
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Integration is impossible. It's been 400 years and black people identify as black not American and reject the white founding fathers history.
Look up the 1619 project.there is no forgiveness. There is no integration.
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koods
Ribbit
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA] 2
#26170624 - 09/05/19 01:01 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah totally the negros fault they’ve had a hard time integrating, yet they’ve managed to do it fairly well. It’s white people like yourself that seem to have a problem integrating into American culture, still fighting for segregation. You should try a little self reflection, look at yourself in the mirror.
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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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JHOVA
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: koods]
#26170635 - 09/05/19 01:06 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Is the kkk accepting non-whites? Sounds too inclusive to me.
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relic
of a bygone era
Registered: 10/14/14
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Loc: the right coast
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA] 3
#26170646 - 09/05/19 01:12 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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They reject the white founding fathers slavemaster history.
Besides, it's been less than 100 years that black folk enjoyed full citizenship in this country and about 50 years that the law has stated they have the same rights as white folk.
"It's been 400 years...". What a crock of shit.
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JHOVA
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: relic]
#26170830 - 09/05/19 02:41 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Didn't say 400 years of freedom. I said 400 years and they are still their own group and do not identify as Americans first. Blacks identify as black first. Civic nationalism is a crock of shit in multiracial societies.
Black people are the biggest impedient to black people clearly.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-africa-slavery-nigeria/west-african-slavery-lives-on-400-years-after-transatlantic-trade-began-idUSKCN1UX1NF
Quote:
Africa has the highest prevalence of slavery, with more than seven victims for every 1,000 people, according to a 2017 report by human rights group Walk Free Foundation and the International Labour Office. The report defines slavery as "situations of exploitation that a person cannot refuse or leave because of threats, violence, coercion, deception, and/or abuse of power."
There are Africans who travel through South America and central America to get into the US right now. It takes them months to travel to a country where they will be "abused" lmao. A country that is historically "racist" and enslaved their ancestors. Yet they risk everything to come here. Ya that makes a lot of sense. If i a was the most persecuted race of people in America I'd definitely run towards that situation with open arms.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA] 1
#26170952 - 09/05/19 03:26 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
Didn't say 400 years of freedom. I said 400 years and they are still their own group and do not identify as Americans first.
So you think they should have began integrating while they were still slaves?
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JHOVA
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They haven't integrated and they never will integrate in any western culture. They will be be outsiders looking in like they are in the UK where there was no slavery.
Liberia exists. Same Constitution as the US different people different result in line with African culture.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA] 2
#26171133 - 09/05/19 05:04 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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How can they integrate if you refuse to accept them?
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JHOVA
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Lol blacks are accepted they actively reject white society with their crime and antisocial behavior.
Have you been following how many people have been getting punched and killed for Popeyes chicken sandwiches running out this last month? You can't teach people who kill and riot over a fucking fried chicken ....
Integrate THAT into a high trust society. Good luck.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA] 1
#26171256 - 09/05/19 06:20 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
Lol blacks are accepted they actively reject white society with their crime and antisocial behavior.
Do you realize that not all blacks commit crime or have antisocial behavior?
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JHOVA
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Their group behavior is statistically significant in multiple metrics and quite frankly alarming. That is assuming you have standards for normal behavior.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26171340 - 09/05/19 07:14 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
Their group behavior is statistically significant in multiple metrics and quite frankly alarming. That is assuming you have standards for normal behavior.
“Blacks are just genetically abnormal! And I don’t know why they’re so angry! We treat them great!”
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The Ecstatic
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It’s not that I’m racist. It’s just that blacks are a mysterious beast we haven’t quite subjugated properly yet. They simply don’t know any better! But again I’m not racist.
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JHOVA
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All I hear is blacks have no agency and you have white guilt because somebody did something hundreds of years ago. How are the Jews ever going to recover, how will the Chinese ever recover oh wait....they did. Is slavery really worse than genocide lol get over yourself. Blacks get preferential treatment in college admissions, preferrential diversity hiring in jobs, welfare reparations, etc
It's not so much to ask them to not clobk people on the head for their stuff to not rape to not kill. It's the least they can do.
Nobody alive today was a slave. nobody alive today knew a slave. Unless you are in Africa where they have the largest slave trade in the world.
4 of the top 10 countries for slavery are in africa. Africans enslaving other africans. Boo hoo about slavery. If africans dont care about their own people TODAY why should be paying for them?
Eritrea 93/1000 people. 10% of Eritrea is a slave. 10% in current year.
Burundi 40/1000 people. 4% of Berundi is a slave.
Central African Republic
Mauritania
Do you hear South Africa or Zimbabwe telling these countries "hey you guys should stop with the slavery thing. its making us all look bad." no you dont hear that. they ignore it because it isnt potically expedient for them.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26171448 - 09/05/19 08:39 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
If africans dont care about their own people TODAY why should be paying for them?
Who is calling for us to be paying for Africans?!?
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JHOVA
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Pew research.
Quote:
Currently, 49% of Democrats say the government should make such payments; 47% say it should not. Still, Democratic support is up from 25% in 2002, so there is momentum for reparations in the party. Support has also increased among independents, from 15% in 2002 to 32% today. Meanwhile, there is minimal support among Republicans, with 5% in favor and 92% opposed. And this hasn't changed since 2002, when 4% were in favor.
73% of blacks want reparations. 73%. The Democrat party cant afford to lose white liberals who want to pander to blacks. this really isnt a question of what to give blacks but what to be seen giving blacks.
Hispanics are split about 50% 50%. thats considerable in many regions of country where they are becoming majority minority status.
Every single Democrat that went on stage admitted they want to look into giving money to blacks for slavery. kamala signed onto bookers reparations bill.
The US pays the bulk of the UN's budget for peacekeeping and general budget. that goes towards keeping africans from starving in zimbabwe.
Quote:
More than five million people in Zimbabwe - about a third of the population - need food aid, with many coming close to starving, the UN says.
Quote:
Launching the appeal on Tuesday, WFP head David Beasley said about 2.5 million people were on the cusp of starvation.
Maybe we can afford to pay for africans right now while their population is 1.5 billion but whats going to happen in 2060 when their population reaches 3 billion. right now africans are having an average of 7 babies. 7! what happens when theres a huge economic downturn? do they all get on a boat an completely invade europe brazil or the US? do they all wait patiently for food deliveries lol? what are they going to do to not burden the rest of the world becuase it doesnt look so great right now.
Hey falcon you ever thought about how much trash and pollution an extra 1.5 Billion more people create? its funny in the west they tell us not to have kids, to be gay, self castrate, to hate children. this whole anti natility line to destroy us. but in africa they are having 7 kids per woman. Now bernie has come out and said he supports killing not only american babies but african babies.
the a majority of the 10 hungriest countries in the world are in Africa. if we give them food they reproduce like rabbits until they require more food more money. if we give them less people will starve. the only solution is to create self sustaining countries but that requires chinese or whites to run the country and plant massive agriculture which is the exact opposite of what SA/Zimbabwe did. they kicked out the best white farmers so they can starve.
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relic
of a bygone era
Registered: 10/14/14
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26171619 - 09/05/19 11:13 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Your link says zero about Bernie Sanders supporting the killing of babies anywhere in the world, much less America or Africa as you claim.
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relic
of a bygone era
Registered: 10/14/14
Posts: 5,624
Loc: the right coast
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA] 2
#26171631 - 09/05/19 11:27 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
they tell us not to have kids, to be gay, self castrate, to hate children. this whole anti natility line to destroy us. but in africa they are having 7 kids per woman.
Exactly nobody I know has ever been told--in their whole lives--to not have kids, be gay, self-castrate, or hate children by anyone of any influence, authority, or otherwise.
I mean, it's pretty easy to hate children as it is, but nobody I know has ever been told in their entire lives to hate children nor any of that other stuff you threw up.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA] 1
#26171632 - 09/05/19 11:27 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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I asked who is calling for us to be paying for Africans, not black Americans. 
And preventing starvation isn't reparations.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26171641 - 09/05/19 11:36 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
relic said:
Quote:
JHOVA said:
they tell us not to have kids, to be gay, self castrate, to hate children. this whole anti natility line to destroy us. but in africa they are having 7 kids per woman.
Exactly nobody I know has ever been told--in their whole lives--to not have kids, be gay, self-castrate, or hate children by anyone of any influence, authority, or otherwise.
No kidding! 
Quote:
JHOVA said:
in africa they are having 7 kids per woman. Now bernie has come out and said he supports killing not only american babies but african babies.
Are you for or against a booming African population? You're not making much sense here.
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JHOVA
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: relic]
#26171661 - 09/05/19 11:56 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
relic said:
Quote:
JHOVA said:
they tell us not to have kids, to be gay, self castrate, to hate children. this whole anti natility line to destroy us. but in africa they are having 7 kids per woman.
Exactly nobody I know has ever been told--in their whole lives--to not have kids, be gay, self-castrate, or hate children by anyone of any influence, authority, or otherwise.
I mean, it's pretty easy to hate children as it is, but nobody I know has ever been told in their entire lives to hate children nor any of that other stuff you threw up.
yawnnnnn
https://time.com/5492622/stephanie-zacharek-childless-life/
https://www.wired.com/story/how-we-reproduce-childfree/
https://www.businessinsider.com/why-people-should-not-have-children-2017-11
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/elizabeth-warrens-advice-to-women-dont-have-children
https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/05/health/birthstrike-climate-change-scn-intl/index.html
you must be blind then. theres a whole month practically a year dedicated to sodomy awareness now geared at children specifically. they use the same hyper colorful marketing ads that got flavored cigarettes and joe cool banned when i was a kid. the level of sexual depravity geared at children from birth is never ending. open your eyes and you can see whats going on.
https://www.rt.com/uk/444363-transgender-autism-gender-school/
https://www.queerty.com/can-we-please-just-start-admitting-that-we-do-actually-want-to-indoctrinate-kids-20110512
https://dailycaller.com/2019/07/02/mother-child-queen-convicted-pedophile-sexualizing-son/
https://www.christianheadlines.com/contributors/scott-slayton/houston-library-officials-apologize-after-registered-sex-offender-reads-during-drag-time-story-hour.html
https://www.kansas.com/news/politics-government/article234143707.html
https://old.reddit.com/r/Transgender_Surgeries/
https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/comments/bnsaic/gender_reassignment_surgery_rarely_leads_to_true/
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/456988-illinois-passes-law-requiring-lgbt-history-curriculum-be-taught-in
birthrates
https://www.npr.org/2019/05/15/723518379/u-s-births-fell-to-a-32-year-low-in-2018-cdc-says-birthrate-is-at-record-level
Feminist indoctrination from primary all the way up to college, family courts, the demasculinization of the father are messages sent to you and the US to not have kids. these are social pressures you are under whether you realize it or not.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA]
#26171692 - 09/06/19 12:17 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Your first articles don't tell us not to have kids. They mentioned some of the downsides of having kids, which seem valid.
And your later articles don't tell us to be gay or to self castrate. They say it's ok, but not that we should.
Finally, did you even try to post an article about how we're taught to hate children?
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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relic
of a bygone era
Registered: 10/14/14
Posts: 5,624
Loc: the right coast
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: JHOVA] 2
#26171828 - 09/06/19 04:33 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said:
Quote:
relic said:
Quote:
JHOVA said:
they tell us not to have kids, to be gay, self castrate, to hate children. this whole anti natility line to destroy us. but in africa they are having 7 kids per woman.
Exactly nobody I know has ever been told--in their whole lives--to not have kids, be gay, self-castrate, or hate children by anyone of any influence, authority, or otherwise.
I mean, it's pretty easy to hate children as it is, but nobody I know has ever been told in their entire lives to hate children nor any of that other stuff you threw up.
yawnnnnn
You can say that again. Booooorrrringgggg. And not relevant to your argument.
Quote:
You must be blind then.
Thx for thinking od me, but nope; wrong again.
You, however, seem to be extremely easy to influemce, hyperbolic, and a highly disingenuous arguer based upon your posts here.
None of what you posted supports your breathless, pearl-clutching rhetoric. I hope you grow out of it...for your soon to be wife and your future hetero, well-adjusted spawn
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relic
of a bygone era
Registered: 10/14/14
Posts: 5,624
Loc: the right coast
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: relic]
#26171902 - 09/06/19 06:14 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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A white person is four times more likely to be victimized by a fellow white person than a black person
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DOJ’s Bureau of Justice Statistics found that a majority of most violent crimes are committed by people who are the same race as their victims. Indeed, the rate of white-on-white violent crime, it found, is about four times the rate of black-on-white crime.
White supremacists frequently like to manipulate crime statistics in order to claim that nonwhite minorities, particularly African-Americans, are far more crime-prone and the source of most violent crime against whites. Indeed, it is a core belief that this is the case, and many white nationalist ideologues — including politician and pundit Patrick Buchanan, Jared Taylor of American Renaissance, and the Council of Conservative Citizens — all have made considerable hay out of proffering “studies” laden with risibly bad statistics and other evidence to make their case.
The BJS study demonstrates plainly that this is simply not the case. Some 57 percent of crimes involving white victims were committed by white perpetrators, while only 15 percent were committed by blacks, and 11 percent by Hispanics. Black crime victims fell along similar racial lines, with 63 percent of the crimes committed by black perpetrators, while 11 percent were committed by whites, and 6.6 percent by Hispanics.
Overall, the BJS reported, “the percentage of intraracial [that is, same-race] victimization was higher than the percentage of interracial victimization for all types of violent crime except robbery.”
Moreover, it explained, “the rate of white-on-white violent crime (12.0 per 1,000) was about four times higher than black-on-white violent crime (3.1 per 1,000). The rate of black-on-black crime (16.5 per 1,000) was more than five times higher than white-on-black violent crime (2.8 per 1,000). The rate of Hispanic-on-Hispanic crime (8.3 per 1,000) was about double the rate of white-on-Hispanic (4.1 per 1,000) and black-on-Hispanic (4.2 per 1,000) violent crime.”
This is consistent with previously collected data, including a National Crime Victim Survey in 2000 that showed that 73 percent of white violent crime victims were attacked by whites, and 80 percent of black victims were targeted by blacks. This pattern is even clearer in the category of murder.
From here: https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2017/10/23/white-supremacists-favorite-myths-about-black-crime-rates-take-another-hit-bjs-study
The violent crime rate fell 49% in the last few decades
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1Violent crime in the U.S. has fallen sharply over the past quarter century. The two most commonly cited sources of crime statistics in the U.S. both show a substantial decline in the violent crime rate since it peaked in the early 1990s. One is an annual report by the FBI of serious crimes reported to police in approximately 18,000 jurisdictions around the country. The other is an annual survey of more than 90,000 households conducted by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, which asks Americans ages 12 and older whether they were victims of crime, regardless of whether they reported those crimes to the police.
Using the FBI numbers, the violent crime rate fell 49% between 1993 and 2017. Using the BJS data, the rate fell 74% during that span. (For both studies, 2017 is the most recent full year of data.) The long-term decline in violent crime hasn’t been uninterrupted, though. The FBI, for instance, reported increases in the violent crime rate between 2004 and 2006 and again between 2014 and 2016.
Ok, I can't abide proving well known facts anymore. Have fun, y'all.
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relic
of a bygone era
Registered: 10/14/14
Posts: 5,624
Loc: the right coast
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Re: Hong Kong [Re: relic]
#26171906 - 09/06/19 06:17 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Wrong thread
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