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Re: Hong Kong [Re: koods]
    #26137284 -

koods said:
XUL said:
Can you answer?

Is China communist?


There are tons of private businesses in China. 60% of the country’s GDP is from non-government sources. So, you tell me is that really communism? They say they are communist but they certainly no longer rely on communism as an economic theory


If this is correct then their public/private ratio is nearly identical to ours, different by only a couple percent.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

Simulacrum
The truth which conceals that there is none

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Re: Hong Kong [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26137542 -

LogicaL Chaos said:
Democracy you say?  Hong Kong had 150 years under British rule, where they never had elections or a local government because they were ruled directly from London.



Right, but it's possible to support neither model and say that HK should have democracy, as many other places do.

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Re: Hong Kong [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26137648 -

ballsalsa said:
Hong Kong is fucked.  Anyone paying attention should have seen this coming 20 years ago.


Just like how anybody who isn't a total retard should have divined the current state of affairs in the US back in 1996?

FYI, Chen Village and Factory Girls are pretty good books.

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Re: Hong Kong [Re: testtesttest]
    #26137655 -

testtesttest said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Democracy you say?  Hong Kong had 150 years under British rule, where they never had elections or a local government because they were ruled directly from London.



Right, but it's possible to support neither model and say that HK should have democracy, as many other places do.


Fixed the quote, Falcon said that. Not sure what the Chinese protesters are trying to tell The World, wish I knew. Perhaps that the Chinese government is oppressive and will not submit to the protestors rioting :strokebeard: I have no clue.

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Re: Hong Kong [Re: testtesttest]
    #26137676 -

Why are Britain and the U.S. now concerned about democracy in Hong Kong???


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Hong Kong [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26137687 -

LogicaL Chaos said:
Not sure what the Chinese protesters are trying to tell The World, wish I knew. Perhaps that the Chinese government is oppressive and will not submit to the protestors rioting :strokebeard: I have no clue.


Nor do I; that's why I'm asking.  Based on the West's history, I'm guessing we are fueling the protests to try and stop Hong Kong's return to China.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Hong Kong [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26137695 -

After a little research, this is what I found:

Quote:
Protesters want to see the controversial extradition bill, which has been suspended, completely withdrawn, and are also seeking direct election of the city's leader and an investigation into alleged police brutality.


From here: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/hong-kong-protesters-rally-at-airport-to-share-the-truth/ar-AAFz9gx

So those are the three main issues it seems. Not sure what the extradition bill is about, the democracy election of a city leader is pretty straight-forward, curious about the police brutality claim, which is common for communist countries.

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Re: Hong Kong [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26137710 -

LogicaL Chaos said:
Fixed the quote, Falcon said that. Not sure what the Chinese protesters are trying to tell The World, wish I knew. Perhaps that the Chinese government is oppressive and will not submit to the protestors rioting :strokebeard: I have no clue.


The extradition bill was tabled but the protestors want it completely withdrawn. The heavy handed police response has them fearing for the civil liberties granted under the “one county two systems” policy.

There are other goals too, like the resignation of Carrie Lam and an independent inquiry into police conduct.

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Re: Hong Kong [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26137717 -

LogicaL Chaos said:
So those are the three main issues it seems. Not sure what the extradition bill is about, the democracy election of a city leader is pretty straight-forward, curious about the police brutality claim, which is common for communist countries.


Basically, the CCP (at least the people running the Central Government versus the provincial ones) has always been paranoid about their ability to actually remain in control of the country and they let that particular neurosis drive most of their decision making.  They've actually had trouble with provinces nearly spinning off into sovereign states recently (i.e. within the past decade or so) specifically because they saw the Central Government as being incompetent, and that coupled with the Arab Spring very much scared the shit out of them.  Long story short, they more or less decided to roll things back to the 1960s and they're terrified that surrendering that particular lot of autonomy (i.e. the extradition bill) to what, at best, amounts to a provincial government will be the beginning of the end to the system that's made them into rich assholes.  And I wouldn't be too shocked if Xi Jingping really just wanted to be a real dictator either.

For everything that can be said about China, it's a large country that's mostly full of rednecks who don't like to be told what to do.  And it's got something like a 2,000 year long tradition of regime change (at the least).

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Re: Hong Kong [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26137782 -

LogicaL Chaos said:
After a little research, this is what I found:

Quote:
Protesters want to see the controversial extradition bill, which has been suspended, completely withdrawn, and are also seeking direct election of the city's leader and an investigation into alleged police brutality.


From here: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/hong-kong-protesters-rally-at-airport-to-share-the-truth/ar-AAFz9gx

So those are the three main issues it seems. Not sure what the extradition bill is about, the democracy election of a city leader is pretty straight-forward, curious about the police brutality claim, which is common for communist countries.


The extradition bill is about China being allowed to prosecute its criminals.  If you think Hong Kong's criminals are above the law, then so be it.

Direct election of the city's leader is a good thing, and China already had mapped out a plan for that.

The police brutality claim is common when police try to stop people from terrorizing their airports and Government buildings while being pelted with rocks.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Hong Kong [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26137962 -

Ok, so on the police brutality. What if it goes back before the rioting? What if its police brutality in general?

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Re: Hong Kong [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26138176 -

The brits were stupid to give hong kong back if they wanted it to remain seperate from the mainland.  I just dont see how anyone thought anything would happen other than exactly what is happening.  One country 2 systems was always doomed and anyone who thought the deal wouldnt be altered has never watched episode V

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Re: Hong Kong [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26138199 -

What do you think would have happened if Britain didn't give it back when the lease expired?
Britain's not a superpower and China isn't Argentina.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

Simulacrum
The truth which conceals that there is none

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Re: Hong Kong [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26138240 -

Im not even speculating on that.  Im just saying that this was inevitable as soon as the hand over happened.  Not the protests, the circumstances leading to them

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Re: Hong Kong [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26138256 -

LogicaL Chaos said:
Ok, so on the police brutality. What if it goes back before the rioting? What if its police brutality in general?


Is it any worse than police brutality in the US?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Hong Kong [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26138291 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The extradition bill is about China being allowed to prosecute its criminals.  If you think Hong Kong's criminals are above the law, then so be it.


In China people don’t have basic civil rights so people who dissent are disappeared. China has already illegally sent people to kidnap Hong Kong residents and try them in the mainland. The bill would establish an easier and legal route  for that behavior going forward.

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Direct election of the city's leader is a good thing, and China already had mapped out a plan for that.


If the ccp gets to choose and disqualify people/parties from running then it’s not really a democratic election.

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Re: Hong Kong [Re: Skellies]
    #26138305 -

austothehun said:
In China people don’t have basic civil rights so people who dissent are disappeared


What "basic civil rights" don't they have?  I work with Chinese people all the time and I've never heard a complaint.  Just wondering...

austothehun said:
China has already illegally sent people to kidnap Hong Kong residents and try them in the mainland. The bill would establish an easier and legal route  for that behavior going forward.


So you think it is "illegal" to arrest criminals and that they should be allowed to go free?

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
If the ccp gets to choose and disqualify people/parties from running then it’s not really a democratic election.


We disqualify people too (you can't run for president if you were born in another country, for example).  Are we not really a democracy?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Hong Kong [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26138350 -

ballsalsa said:
The brits were stupid to give hong kong back if they wanted it to remain seperate from the mainland.  I just dont see how anyone thought anything would happen other than exactly what is happening.  One country 2 systems was always doomed and anyone who thought the deal wouldnt be altered has never watched episode V


Hong Kong is physically attached to the mainland, China has had SEZs since Mao was alive and some degree of pronvincial autonomy is expected by the Chinese and by the Central Government (though, in the Central Government's fantasies, everybody just throws their support behind whatever Beijing does because harmony).

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Re: Hong Kong [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26138352 -

ballsalsa said:
Im not even speculating on that.  Im just saying that this was inevitable as soon as the hand over happened.  Not the protests, the circumstances leading to them


No it wasn't.  That's why the sinologists were and still are all interested to see what the future holds.  Nobody who's talking about how this was inevitable seems to know a damned thing about the country that didn't come out of John Dulles's book of Cold War paranoia.

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Re: Hong Kong [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26138403 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What "basic civil rights" don't they have?  I work with Chinese people all the time and I've never heard a complaint.  Just wondering...



Freedoms of speech and self expression are a few. Some of my girlfriends friends have been banned from re-entering China because they were protest participants in the US.

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So you think it is "illegal" to arrest criminals and that they should be allowed to go free?


The Hong Kong and Chinese legal systems are separate entities. If I broke a Canadian law in the US and then they sent goons across the border to secretly kidnap me then it would be illegal.

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
We disqualify people too (you can't run for president if you were born in another country, for example).  Are we not really a democracy?


That’s not the same level of restriction. If, for the sake of argument, the Republican Party reviewed every candidate and party in an election and could deny whoever they chose from running (as the ccp does) then I’d say it’s not democratic.

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