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 saved7 follower Registered: 06/10/19 Posts: 203 Last seen: 4 years, 10 months |
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As a teenager in the late 90's and early 00's I was obsessed with tripping. All I really thought about was seeking out more mushrooms or acid and embarking on that next psychedelic adventure to glean whatever divine knowledge or imagery I could from that elevated state of mind. In the meantime I studied other people's "trip reports" and tried to arrange the best environmental settings for my next trip.
I remember my first acid trip, lying face down on my bedroom floor in tears, feeling released from the negativity and depression that had surrounded me for years, and for the first time just being in total awe of the beauty of existence, of sound and music, of my very being. I felt nothing but appreciation for being alive, like I was being held in the arms of the universe, whispering to me that everything was okay. I think there is something sad about the psychedelic experience, in that, for a moment you are able to experience God's creation, the majesty of nature and the power of the human mind, but then it is usually all chalked up to some ambiguous divine intelligence pervading the universe, or the supposed divinity of nature and humanity itself. Over the next several years that psychedelic state of mind kept me in the pursuit of truth-seeking... I was sure there was some big secret to the universe that I was on the verge of breaking through, that daily mundane life was more or less just a superficial veil that was covering the real truth underneath. I began reading a lot about the occult and conspiracy literature, about sacred geometry and hidden forces and designs underlying reality. I believed I was spiritually evolving, pulling myself out of the false matrix of reality. The next thing I knew, I was knelt down on the floor again, tears streaming down my face. Only this time, it wasn't from a drug, it was from the Bible I was holding in my hands. I had begun reading... for the first time really... about Jesus Christ and what he did, and it was like a light-switch flicking on, the veil dropping, and the true light flooding into my heart. I still remember that novel feeling of surrender... It was nothing like surrendering to the physical effects of a psychedelic experience, as spiritual as that might have felt at the time... this was a surrendering of my soul to something surprisingly familiar. I struggle to convey the feeling, but it was like talking to a loved one you haven't seen for a very long time... and not an ambiguous divine force, but a divine person... a person I had always known about, but denied their existence. I found myself apologizing to God for not believing in him all those years, and crying tears of joy as I accepted the light of Jesus Christ. I simply believed, and knew it was the truth. I believed what I was reading, and I knew that I was a sinner, and my biggest sin was simply putting myself on the throne of reality, under the various guises of spiritual transcendence.... there I was.... at the top, with no acknowledgement of God above me. And surrendering and returning to him was like returning to a long lost love. And I felt the pure love and forgiveness of God all around me... all through this person called Jesus Christ... believing that he actually was who he said he was, and that he died to save me from this thing called sin. I felt myself being washed clean of it... this thing I had scoffed at and ridiculed all my life... and it was suddenly happening to me.. I was being saved. I think there is a kind of arrogance with the idea of spiritual truth. We believe true spirituality is something we attain through our own power and ambition.. and we reject the idea that the truth has been well known all along throughout history, by people we deem as ugly or small-minded... offered to us freely by strangers on the street... Instead we want the truth to be something exotic that we find for ourselves, a divine realm where we are the masters, or at least equals in that divnity... but I became like a baby, calling out for my Father to forgive me for being so selfish, and the answer was Jesus. ..... The good news is that you don't have to join a church, or spend hours studying the Bible to access this truth. You can receive it for yourself this moment. Jesus is there with you right now, this very instant, just waiting for you to ask him to enter your heart. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in... - Revelations 3:20 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. - Romans 10:9 (feel free to PM me if you want to speak privately about this) -------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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unfortunategent Stranger   Registered: 06/04/14 Posts: 316 Last seen: 4 years, 8 months |
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I hope this is not one of those one-off posts where you come into the forum to evangelize and then disappear forever. Based upon your username and single post count, I have my suspicions.
I'm feeling sassy today, though, so I will bite. Were you able to hold on to this feeling of clarity and surrender since the 90's? One of my biggest skepticisms throughout my life as a Christian are people who make it seem like one moment is enough to solidify faith for a lifetime. I have also had these experiences - before any drug use, during drug intoxication, and also in my sober days. The feeling, however, always fades back into the mundanity of everyday life and I'm left with the question of "what do I do now?" Obviously continuing to seek this feeling through drugs, meditation, or even worship is not the answer, because it is, after all, just a feeling. I'm always so impressed by the saints who have dedicated their lives to their god after a moment like you are describing. It seems like they were blessed with such a spiritual blow, that the rest of their lives are impacted. For me, my spiritual life and faith rises and falls no matter how many "divine" interventions I'm given. In a way, I want a moment powerful enough to solidify my faith forever, but based upon the ones I've already experienced, I feel it would be too much for me. I would have to go blind like Saul or something. I do believe that I am saved. I have chosen Jesus because he is a personal god. I need a god who knows me better than I know myself and Jesus is supposed to be just that. However, even after surrendering to Jesus as a child, life has been tough and boring. I don't live in spiritual ecstasy and unwavering faith. My life is, in fact, full of doubt and questions. I find that the only way to hold on to the faith is by surrendering myself again and again everyday...maybe even several times a day. So this leads me to believe that these saints who seem to have found it so easy to believe and stay true after their moment of clarity, instead struggled everyday, just like me. After all, they were only men, as I am. Even Paul, near the end of his life, wrote to Timothy "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith." He would not have put it that way if he did not struggle. This is as encouraging as it is intimidating. To conclude, I do believe, when it comes to Christianity, one moment is all it takes to be saved. If that is all you are saying, then I agree with you. As soon as you use your free will to make that choice, it is done. But that is just the very start of the journey.
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saved7 follower Registered: 06/10/19 Posts: 203 Last seen: 4 years, 10 months |
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I used to post here a long time ago.. I just decided to come back here because I'm familiar with the territory... I guess in a way I'm witnessing to my younger self, because I know there are many people like me who are seeking the truth. And I plan on sticking around at least for a little while.
The first time believing in Jesus and being saved was very intense. That was back in the summer of 2012. And I've definitely struggled in my faith since then from time to time, and there's been times where I've felt like I was starting to really slip away and fall back into the world.. but I've prayed for God to give me more faith, and He does, and several times I've felt that same intense presence of Jesus being right next to me. I feel like this happens when I truly repent. And by Repent, I mean, I admit that my own will and understanding means nothing and God's will means everything. It's a surrendering of your mind, and saying, "I love you God... I'm sorry for trying to do it MY way again... I lean on you for all my understanding." I think the world teaches us every day to do the exact opposite... we are taught to be "free-thinkers" and to be the ultimate judges of good and evil in our lives.. always wanting to be the masters of our own reality. Even as a saved follower of Christ, that temptation is continually trying to creep back into me.. and if I'm not being vigilant it's suddenly all around me again. But then all I have to do is give up on myself.. give all my cares and worries to God, and then Jesus is right there again beside me.
I do think the beauty that comes with tripping is because we are experiencing the majesty of God's creation (the divine patterns and architecture of light and sound and living things) ... We're able to do so because we become temporarily freed from the noise and distraction of daily life.. But in the end it's a carnal experience... of the flesh and the mind... and I believe God wants us to seek him soberly with a truly repentant heart.
I hear you, believe me. I've had the same struggles. I think the more we suffer for Christ, the more we are continually offering ourselves to Christ... and therefore the early saints might have had an easier time of it, faith-wise. Compare that with a modern, comfortable lifestyle, where we are free to slip into one of an infinite number of distractions through media and elsewhere... it can be very dangerous territory for a Believer. As soon as you begin relying on the world for happiness, you will slowly begin slipping away. It's impossible for us to do it ourselves... and I'm ashamed how often I still forget this. If you want more faith, then all you have to do is pray for it - ask God for it. We never get closer to him through our own striving and works... We do it by giving up on ourselves and saying "Your way God, not mine." "Less of me, and more of you." I slip and fall all the time, every day actually. And I have to keep coming around to surrendering to that truth again. -------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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unfortunategent Stranger Registered: 06/04/14 Posts: 316 Last seen: 4 years, 8 months |
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I'm glad you responded. I know there are a few Christians on this forum, so I hope they chime in too.
I agree with you that it may have been easier for the early saints to have faith. But maybe "easier" isn't the right word because they definitely had more at stake, many times their entire life. But agree with what you're saying. I guess each dispensation has it's own challenges. For us, at least in western society, we may not be killed for what we believe, but our difficulties are unique to our time. Not only does the secular world present a swift opposing current to our beliefs, but it also pervades so many aspects of our lives, whether we like it or not. Unless you are a hermit or in the ministry, every day we are committing our minds to something different than what we tend to experience in day to day life. We are commanded to be the salt of the earth, but honestly, I don't think I've ever turned one person to Christ. Not that I haven't tried, but people find Christianity so easy to scoff at now that nothing I can say is effective. I've known for a long time that the established model for witnessing is outdated, but don't have any better ideas. This is very discouraging to me and definitely contributes to my lack of faith. In the end, though, each one of us is saved individually and all I can do is make that choice for myself. I hope that at least some aspect of my life can be a witness and in that, I'm doing my duty.
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Buster_Brown L'une   Registered: 09/17/11 Posts: 13,296 Last seen: 30 days, 6 hours |
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How does it state that being the salt means you have to turn people to Christ? Couldn't it simply be being "a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder. Help someone's soul heal. Walk out of your house like a shepherd." -Rumi
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unfortunategent Stranger Registered: 06/04/14 Posts: 316 Last seen: 4 years, 8 months |
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Sure, you can take it that way if you’re just applying it in a general spiritual sense. But Jesus also says “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through me.” When held up against verses like that, I am led to believe that turning people to Christ is the highest goal of Christian activity. If that is true, then being “a lamp” means illuminating Christ, being “a lifeboat” means taking someone to safety in Christ, and being “a ladder” means giving someone the tools to reach that highest ideal, which is in Christ.
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saved7 follower Registered: 06/10/19 Posts: 203 Last seen: 4 years, 10 months |
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Yes, Jesus Christ is the only doorway to salvation. We have a Sin problem... it's obvious humanity is fallen.. I doubt any of us can go a single day without having a multitude of wicked selfish thoughts. All around us is the evidence of Creation, and that we have a Creator, but we won't give God even a minute's thought. And when we do get "spiritual" it's typically a self-serving spirituality, something ambiguous like a "Christ Consciousness" that allows us to live our own way, make our own rules, and follow our own lusts. We hate the idea of God being in charge and judging our actions. We are seething with rebellion and pride. There is no way we could ever get back to God this way, in our fallen nature. No amount of human works could ever erase all of our sin. That's why Jesus Christ is so important. When he was bleeding and dying on the cross 2,000 years ago, he was paying for all of the world's sin with his blood. It was the final sacrifice for all. He was God's own son, God in the flesh, dying for us. If we're honest with ourselves, deep down we know we are separated from God, and that we desperately need forgiveness... as a disobedient child needs forgiveness of their father. And we can be forgiven everything, if only we believe in Jesus Christ's sacrifice. He paid for it, it's finished. And anyone reading this can know the truth for themselves if they really want it. If they approach God, with a repentant heart actually desiring forgiveness, and invite Jesus Christ into your heart, you will know the truth, and you will be truly free. But it is a hard message for the world to hear. We instinctively know that we'll be giving up control over our own lives and all the lusts and desires we chase every day... so we turn up the noise and comfort ourselves with wishy-washy doctrines of "Christ consciousness", so we can stay the masters of our lives... But in the end, we will all stand before God. And when God looks at you, he can either see You... and all the evil thoughts and actions of your life.... Or he can see Jesus, who paid for all of that evil on the cross. The choice is yours. -------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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 Satya  Registered: 11/11/15 Posts: 175 |
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It does seem a bit cliché with your first post claiming you've been saved by Jesus, after reading your posts though I can tell you’re speaking from experience and just want to help. I like your emphasis on surrender, which is so important and often overlooked nowadays.
I agree that when seeking the truth one has to go beyond psychedelics, however I’d like to point out that the psychedelic experience isn’t necessarily a carnal experience. It is a physical substance that influences the body and mind, yet it essentially influences the mind in such a way that it can become less bound by the physical. Quite often people report that during a powerful experience there was a loss of physical identity, or at least sexuality and appetite, all of which are definitively carnal experiences. I'd also like to point out that when Jesus says he is the only way to God, he isn't referring to the flesh but Christ consciousness, 'I Am', which is common to all beings. Surely there were beings who came to realize the truth before there were writings about Jesus, and surely beings who have never even heard of Jesus are able to realize the truth of their own being. We only appear separate from the eternal due to identification with the passing, in truth how can anyone exist apart from that which alone is?
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saved7 follower Registered: 06/10/19 Posts: 203 Last seen: 4 years, 10 months |
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Yes, for me, especially on LSD, I lost all interest in those concerns of the body. But carnal in that, it remained a sort of spiritual celebration of the creation - the physical universe in all its seen and unseen dimensions, and how the human mind is one more aspect of that universe. Like I mentioned in the OP... I believe tripping does move one closer to the divine... because for a moment you are staring directly at the handiwork of God with no interruption. But the sadness is in the illusion that the handiwork, the creation itself, is that divinity (with humans at the top or at least co-equals of that divinity)... So, in my view, tripping is essentially a celebration of the Creation, and not the Creator. We are like lumps of clay marveling at all the wonderful designs of pottery around us, but never wanting to acknowledge the Potter above us.
"Christ Consciousness" is an exaltation of the self... It's saying we can find salvation and divinity through our own spiritual works, and denies the need of forgiveness from God our Creator. And that forgiveness only comes through the blood of Jesus Christ, the Son of God... believing that his sacrifice on the cross paid for your sins.
God's laws are written on on everyone's hearts, and man's own conscience bears witness to his thoughts and deeds. (Romans Ch.2) Everyone will be judged justly. But the important thing is that you and I are in no such predicament. The testimony of Jesus Christ has been all around us, likely all of our lives, just waiting for us to accept that gift of salvation. Jesus is a gift so freely given, yet so hard to hear for the unrepentant heart who wants to stay on the throne of his own reality. Jesus is the only way, the only door to salvation, and he knocks right now for anyone who reads these words. -------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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PocketLady   Registered: 01/18/10 Posts: 1,781 |
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I love the first post you made, and a lot of it makes sense to me. The spiritual path does seem to have many ego-traps, and I agree that complete surrender is a key part of the path. Without God, we can do nothing. Only God can purify us, only God can save us. But, we have to ask. We have to see the imperfections, the “sin”, if you want to call it that, and we have to beg to be changed.
But, what doesn’t resonate with me that Jesus/Christianity is the ONLY way. I know Jesus said that no one comes to God except through him, but just as Satya says, I don’t think that is literal. In fact, I don’t think the Bible is supposed to be taken literally in its entirety. The whole thing is layered in vary levels of symbolism. Sure, there is a surface layer, where some of it may be literal historical truth, but much of it is allegory. There are some extremely deep symbolic truths hidden in the Bible. I’m not even saying Jesus wasn’t a person. He probably was, maybe a very highly evolved spiritual master, an avatar etc. But this passage, it makes sense to me that it’s symbolic. The only way to God, to complete purity, is to follow the example of Christ. Christ represents something extremely exalted, pure, compassionate, and wise. This is the way to God, but whether it’s the teachings of Jesus, or one of the Buddhas, or any highly pure evolved spiritual being, it doesn’t matter. I’ve spent years studying meditation, I’ve spent years praying, and I have had significant spiritual experiences (without drugs), and I’ve experienced significant changes in my ability to be compassionate, and to love. And, although I’ve read the Bible, and I have a particular interest in Gnostic Christianity, I have never prayed to Jesus in particular. Yet, I have still experienced change. So, from my own personal experience, Jesus is not the ONLY way. There are many paths up the mountain, and they all lead to the same destination. The only question a person should ask themselves when wondering if a spiritual path is genuine is, “Am I becoming more aware, less involved with my own ego, more self-less, more loving and more compassionate?” If the answer is yes, well, you are going the right way.  John 14:12 - Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. -------------------- The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir Edited by PocketLady (06/12/19 05:32 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic Elder  Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida 
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months |
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Fortunately for you and those whom you might assail with words that they can read from any number of Bible translations - this too shall pass. Firstly, the activation of certain archetypal religious needs in you have resulted in a new type of inebriation. I also went through an intense four year period of seeking which began before my first psychedelic experience). I left pre-med to take a degree in philosophy (1976). Then I entered and completed a degree in a United Methodist seminary, although not to become an ordained minister. I was raised Jewish, took Catholic baptism, but entered Drew University's seminary because it was a compromise instead of becoming a novitiate monastic. I left seminary for graduate school in human development and clinical psychology and became a mental health professional.
The canonical Bible is the result of a conspiracy to eliminate every other theology that could not be utilized by the original Christian (Catholic) Church to control multitudes with promises of metaphysical paradise as well as fears of metaphysical punishment - both ostensibly eternal conditions to be experienced by a finite, separate formerly human being. Most literal believers in these promises and threats do not have the sophistication to see the flaws in these doctrines. "Eternal Life" may be the life of God, but it does NOT translate into any form of separate personal immortality. Personal immortality does not exist in Christianity, that is an erroneous assumption. The language ascribed to Iesous is Jewish midrash. The author called John introduced pure classic Hellenistic mythic ideas into Christianity when he identified Iesous as being the Incarnation of the Logos (usually translated as "Word"). I am not writing to trash your newfound sense of purpose, I have my own walk with God, but I would caution you to wait until you have assimilated the numinous midrashic-mythical-metaphorical material into your psyche [soul] first, before you make metaphysical assertions which are not properly assimilated or valued psychologically. Metaphysical may be understood as 'spiritual,' the psychological refers to the psyche (soul). You are still a 'babe in Christ' (admittedly, in your words, "became like a baby...") and may be conflating the midrashic-mythic-metaphorical material as literal. How many people read the meaning of the word "pneuma" in 1 Thessalonians 7:14, for example, so that they imagine translucent naked transmogrified bodies rising up into the "air" in rapture instead of an ecstatic interior psychospiritual moment where consciousness rises in the "spirit." In other words, a mystical, transcendental experience. Pneuma means both air/breath and spirit in Greek. One cannot portray a formless, ineffable inner mystical moment except by the utilization of mythic imagery and metaphor. Paul's experience in 2 Corinthians 12 had some notion of ineffability with regard to inability to speak of it, but his was more a visionary than a truly mystical experience and hence was less a mental glimpse into Ultimate Reality than a translation of the Transcendental into representative sensory modalities. The bottom line: If you 'believe' that every other religion's writings are merely myth, but Christianity's writings depict actual, literal, historically accurate (in a modern journalistic or scientific sense) events and are therefore really, Really, REAL, then you are not ready to teach, but this venue is hardly the venue in which to preach. I hope you will find the means to reconcile faith with reason and understand that 'beliefs' are not identical to faith (maybe read Liberating the Gospel by Rev. J.S. Spong). In the meantime, do take a clue from page 97 of BE HERE NOW. There are horrible people throughout history who perpetrated unspeakable atrocities while 'believing' that they were Christians. Meanwhile, there are some truly good human beings who are not Christians. 'Christian' propaganda denies this utterly, but if one acts from compassion and loving-kindness, one may "be in Christ" without having to entertain Christian doctrines and dogmas in mind. Ideas are not salvific. The hateful Christian Right are not "in Christ." Do not be confused by mere words, they are not the actual "Word" or "Logos" which 'saves.'  MtG
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saved7 follower Registered: 06/10/19 Posts: 203 Last seen: 4 years, 10 months |
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I always had rejected Christianity. My "religious needs" were more directed towards gnosticism than anything else. I wanted to be the master, piercing the veil of reality through my own understanding. The truth of Jesus Christ blind-sided me, but I could not deny it, just as I could not deny that God was real and that I needed his forgiveness more than anything.
Right now all I have to say about the Catholic religion is that there's a reason the leadership didn't want common people to read the Bible for themselves. They have so many patently un-biblical beliefs and practices that I don't even know where to begin.
"You will be like God" was the original lie told by the serpent. How fitting that the world now preaches this religion, that man himself is already divine, if only he will open his eyes and realize it. Such doctrines keep us from the truth that we are fallen, separated, and in need of forgiveness and a savior. The saving blood of Jesus is right there , for anyone who wants to accept it. But what if people believe the lie that they are already like God, or already have direct access to God through their own works? I thank God that He cut me off from that path.
The mysteries of the Bible could be explored for a thousand lifetimes and then I believe you'd still be scratching the surface. The design of each verse. Behind every number and reed measurement there is meaning. Jesus Christ, the beginning and the end, the Word made flesh, is a picture of holiness that is echoed throughout the Bible like one sacred fractal image. The very first creation of Light separating the darkness, The first animal sacrifice to cover the sins of Adam and Eve, the doorway to Noah's Ark, the blood of the lamb painted over the doors in Egypt, the entrance to the heart of the Tabernacle, and a multitude of other examples, were all pictures of the salvation of Jesus Christ. Yet at the same time, its truth is given simply and plainly, so that a child could understand it. We are fallen, in sin, and in need of forgiveness, of which there is only one way: The cross of Jesus Christ.
Like the game of Telephone, there is a kernel of truth behind all myths and religions. Ancient people all over the world understood the truth that they had fallen from some sort of a "Golden Age" Paradise...(Garden of Eden) and that men had become separated by the judgment of God. All over the world these religions sprang into being... people giving sacrifices and building monuments and idols and other venerations in order to try and get back into God's grace or at least postpone His wrath. So a multitude of false-religions and myths spawned from that central truth of God and man's fallen nature.
I don't know what "Christian propaganda" you're referring to, but one of the most prominent themes found throughout the Bible is the failings of God's people... Despite witnessing miracle after miracle, the Israelites turned away from God almost every chance they got and tried to twist it into their own religion for their own benefit. Jesus himself drove the corrupt priests out of the temple with a whip. The "Heroes" of the story are repeatedly shamed and we are warned repeatedly to be skeptical of men claiming to come in God's name, and to test what they say against the scriptures. -------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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MarkostheGnostic Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months |
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Clearly, you've drunk the Flavor-Aid™ (Kool-Aid™ is a meme but not the actual stuff at Jonestown), and have a very concrete, literal, and mythological understanding of these midrashic stories. That being the case, we cannot continue much further in dialogue. In fact, your sentence, "I thank God that He cut me off from that path" immediately elicited "I thank you, God, that I am not like other people—cheaters, sinners, adulterers. I’m certainly not like that tax collector!" - Luke 18:11. If and when you Individuate to the point that you have arisen from the stage you are at and have humbly accepted that notion that "Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High" - Psalm 82:6 (and its reference to it in John 10:34), then you will have grown past your current alchemical stage of the 'Albedo' wherein purification from your "sins" dominates your psyche and balance will be restored (in the 'Rubedo,' the reddening, the Gold). You see, you sometimes need a meta-theory in which to observe the conceptual matrix you are absorbed in. Alchemy, like some Gnostic religion had some really apropos insights into the religious development of individuals including and especially Christians.
You may feel righteous when addressing those 'Hylic' (unredeemed in Gnostic thought) individuals who are still in the 'Nigredo' stage of alchemy, uninterested, non-reflective, selfish, because YOU have 'seen the Light.' But be cautioned that the Nigredo or blackening, and the Rubedo, the whitening, are Western correlates of the Chinese Yin-Yang symbol, polarized, and yet there is a spot of white in the black fish and a spot of black in the white fish and where you are right now is just as imbalanced as where you were before only now you are being Pharisaic about it. I read hubris, not humility, and a desire to be better, but not merely better than YOU were before, better than others, spiritual pride. If you're insulted by my observation, sorry, not my intention, but by God if you do not see this and assimilate it, then life is likely to give you a Zen-slap to awaken you from your illusion of superior supernatural righteousness. There is nothing 'golden' about your Augustinian-exaggerated state of fallenness, where literally everyone who does not buy into this religious imperialism is considered damned and doomed. If you want to apply a notion universally, it would be much better to pay attention to sayings like John 1:47 in which Iesous ostensibly says "Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!" Nine words in English which essential absolve ALL Jews from the obligation of becoming Christians because righteousness and compassion arising within one man (Nathanael) vicariously extends to all Jews as it does to all manner of human beings without any need to drink the Christian doctrinal Flavor-Aid™. And of course logically and by extension, this means a true Christian catholicity or universality which recognizes that the LOGOS is not the exclusive possession of the Christian religions of the world. Christ simply means anointed with chrism, it is an honorific title designating a state of "being in Christ," 'having the mind of the LOGOS.' Christ is a Greek word for the modern concept of Cosmic Consciousness, the possession of which results in theosis (again a Christian idiom), but which exists within the spiritually-minded Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Jain, Bahai, Sikh, etc., etc., etc. regardless of their varied 'beliefs.' Being in Christ has nothing to do with a 1st century Judean mendicant wisdom teacher. I have studied the various Christologies at length but these were failed attempts to impart reason to the absurd. Often misattributed to Tertullian, (the first to use the word Trinity in Christian context) is "Credo quia absurdum," I believe because it is absurd. But what is needful is the reconciliation of faith with reason, not 'beliefs.' It is high time that Christianity Must Change or Die - a book title by Rev. John Shelby Spong but indeed the self-righteous, religious imperialism which has long characterized every religious bigot in the name of Christ from crusaders to klansmen needs to die. 
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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saved7 follower Registered: 06/10/19 Posts: 203 Last seen: 4 years, 10 months |
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I thank God that I am as wretched as them all, if not moreso, and yet he still saved me. Jesus can save you, too, Markos. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: - Ephesians 2 -------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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Duncan Rowhl Fiducia Christum  Registered: 10/08/12 Posts: 2,659 Loc: UK 
Last seen: 4 years, 12 days |
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This is precisely the sin of worshipping a man ....who's only message was to look within the self. To worship Jesus is to idolize - a trait of the destructive ego. This too is why you associate your assumed 'truth' with anger. To be 'saved' is to be free of the traits of the destructive ego and those consequential effects.
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MarkostheGnostic Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months |
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Yes, I know. I was 'justified' probably before you were born. The rest of one's life is about 'sanctification,' NOT sanctimoniousness which describes your present condition. New Christians are like adolescents who think their parents are stupid and THEY know better than them or anyone else older than they are. Your words remind me of some graffiti that used to be over a urinal in the library at Drew University. It read, "I used to be an acid-head, now I'm a Godhead." Underneath it someone justifiably responded to the inflation with: "You're actually a shithead." Hopefully that took the inflated asshole down a few notches the next time he stood there to piss. I'm not name-calling, just reminiscing about a poignant message.
Now mind you, I read that somewhere between 1976 and 1978 but the moment remains clear quite possibly as a lesson for YOU. "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." I truly do not want to hear back from you on this for ten years. If I'm still alive and on here you might be ready for a mature discussion of faith. By then you might have developed enough Christian maturity to have brought myth, midrash, and metaphor sufficiently into your psyche to manifest the agapé, tolerance and forgiveness that the kerygma is actually about. Right now your reality-testing is compromised by new exposure to the powerful archetypes activated in you by the Bible. They really can take us away from being grounded, it happened to me too. Best wishes for your "new wine" to age well and not turn to vinegar like so many people.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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saved7 follower Registered: 06/10/19 Posts: 203 Last seen: 4 years, 10 months |
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Jesus was God in the flesh, who came to this fallen world to die for us, to pay for our sins with his blood. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.... ...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. - John 1 But you don't have to sit there and wonder if Jesus was God or just a man. You can ask Him yourself. He stands knocking at the door, waiting for any who read this to invite him into their hearts. -------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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akira_akuma Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ  Registered: 08/28/09 Posts: 82,455 Loc: Onypeirophóros Last seen: 6 years, 7 months |
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Christianity is not anything new. in fact, it's very old. And before it's time, it was called many other things, and practiced in different cultures, with their beliefs, too [because dogma did not reign]. Christ says to look inside the soul [in no uncertain terms] to find salvation. This goes all the way back past the prophets, and to the Masters. Jesus called himself a 'prophet' [ie, navi- and Christ was called navi'um or 'the called one'] because that was the staple moniker for the messiah, at the time ["prophet", that is]. messiah means, as 'Christ' does, 'the anointed one'.
this is all related to what in the Vedas, and in other religious texts, describe as the 'twice-born'.
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Duncan Rowhl Fiducia Christum Registered: 10/08/12 Posts: 2,659 Loc: UK
Last seen: 4 years, 12 days |
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This suggests that all flesh is Christ.
This was the very teaching from Jesus himself. Open the door to your heart. Christ (The Logos) is knocking. Not a bearded man! 
Edited by Duncan Rowhl (06/19/19 12:58 AM)
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saved7 follower Registered: 06/10/19 Posts: 203 Last seen: 4 years, 10 months |
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Actually there are no other accounts like the ones we find of Jesus in the New Testament. He stands in history and in a world of religious claims as a total enigma with no rival. He was flesh and blood, walking through the towns and cities. We even know specific houses he visited. This relatively unknown man who walked into the Jewish Temple and began effortlessly schooling the highest religious authorities and scribes of that age. People wrote biographies of his miracles, death, and resurrection, and then a bunch of 1st century Jews began willingly choosing persecution and death in preaching that these things were true and actually happened. They had actually seen the resurrected Christ in the flesh. And this is just scratching the surface of the mystery. Jesus is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"... Jesus is everywhere in the Old Testament.. in prophecies and in types and foreshadows. It is absolutely amazing. The patterns of salvation.... When you really look at it, the modern world's claim that all of this was contrived by the minds of men becomes more and more laughable. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. The risen Lord Jesus Christ. -------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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Forrester aspiring sociopath  Registered: 02/05/13 Posts: 9,352 Loc: Northeast USA
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months |
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The resurrected Christ didn't have flesh, it was his ethereal body. The whole point of him allowing himself to be crucified was to show the unimportance of the body, that we are eternal though it is not. 
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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saved7 follower Registered: 06/10/19 Posts: 203 Last seen: 4 years, 10 months |
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The Gospel of John Ch.20 ... following Jesus's death and bodily resurrection: Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.” Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” The disciples of Jesus would not have begun risking their lives over some ghostly apparition. They physically handled his crucified and resurrected body. All doubt was eliminated. And from that point on, the fear of death had no power over them. Death became like a squashed insect to be trampled underfoot, because Jesus defeated it on the Cross. Previously, the Roman cross and public method of crucifixion was the ultimate symbol of earthly power of the Empire, used to strike fear into the hearts of slaves. In 3 days, one man turned that terrifying picture of punishment and tyranny into the ultimate image of salvation and freedom. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. -1 Corinthians 15:55-57 Furthermore... The human body, being created in the Image of God, is like a micro-cosmic Temple of God. God communicates with his creation through human consciousness. Jesus alludes to this himself when the Jewish temple authorities confront him. Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. - John 2:19 (Jesus predicting his death and resurrection after 3 days) In our current bodies we are corrupted, cursed, and barren temples full of idols that we cling to and that keep us separate from God our Creator. But at the end of this world all things will be made new in Jesus Christ. He paid for our curse. He unlocked the grave and left an empty tomb behind him. All we have to do is accept and believe what Jesus did for you and me on that cross. Eternal truth and life is right there for the taking... Jesus is right there knocking on the door to your heart. Will you answer it? -------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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Forrester aspiring sociopath Registered: 02/05/13 Posts: 9,352 Loc: Northeast USA
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months |
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thanks for sharing
I have, I just read a different book than you
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method. Edited by Forrester (02/19/20 08:12 AM)
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saved7 follower Registered: 06/10/19 Posts: 203 Last seen: 4 years, 10 months |
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The Bible is historical evidence. You can question it, you can doubt it, but it is there and it is compelling. (See "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel for example: t=786) Look at your own assertion that "the resurrected Christ did not have flesh" ... You offered no evidence or any argument at all, yet you condescend that I've not met your standards. Once again it just confirms to me that this isn't really about evidence. It's about our hearts. In the book of Acts ch.5 Jesus' followers are being threatened by the Jewish high priests for preaching His name, and one of the priests says this: “Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” In other words... the Jewish people were quite familiar with revolutionary figures appearing on the scene with all sorts of bold claims stirring up followers. And they (quite incorrectly) assumed that Jesus was just another one of these. Jesus' followers were people... regular people like us. They weren't gullible dummies. They wouldn't have decided to stick their necks out for just anything that came along. We wouldn't have the Gospels and the New Testament if something didn't change these people, profoundly. Jesus Christ fundamentally changed them, just as He continues to change the hearts of atheists in the 21st century. How did this one man change the world by dying bloody on a cross 2000 years ago? Is it too much to consider the possibility that Jesus simply was who He said He was?... that His tomb lies empty because He really did rise from the dead? -------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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Forrester aspiring sociopath Registered: 02/05/13 Posts: 9,352 Loc: Northeast USA
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months |
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Dude I've explained this before, the bible has been too heavily edited for me to believe much of it. How many times has someone been converted by you spouting verses in their face from a book they don't believe in?
It doesn't work that way. I've written off the bible as not trustworthy, and a random person on the shroomery isn't going to change my mind. Or anyone's.
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method. Edited by Forrester (02/19/20 09:22 AM)
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saved7 follower Registered: 06/10/19 Posts: 203 Last seen: 4 years, 10 months |
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This is a myth. Bibles from the late middle ages are nearly identical to those in the early centuries AD. And there is a wealth of manuscript fragments to compare. The Bible is one of the most well preserved documents we have from the ancient world and antiquity. Even skeptic scholars will concede this. Where there are differences in translations, they are insignificant (changed spellings of words, etc.) and don't effect anything meaningful. I think we surround ourselves with these myths to keep from hearing the truth. When it's just you and Jesus facing each other, you won't be able to withstand the truth, so you have to pile up these falsehoods like a wall to prevent that encounter from happening. The more you honestly approach the words and figure of Jesus Christ, with an open heart, the more you begin to feel the blindfold slipping off. When that veil finally drops, it's just you and God and there's no going back.
To be honest, I have no idea. If I have planted a seed in just one reader, then all these posts are worth it. They may not even realize that seed is now in them until years later when God increases their understanding, and maybe they'll remember reading these words. I used to laugh at Christians.. I thought it was all a joke. And every now and then I'd come across someone witnessing online, throwing a Bible verse at me here and there. And then one day, all of a sudden, my heart changed and I knew it was true. Whereas I was blind, now I see. We pretend it's some big mystery why this world exists, why we exist... we re-invent and repackage materialistic cosmologies and tell ourselves it's all an Epicurean sea of atoms doing their thing. We lie to ourselves. We know there is a God. We know that we've separated ourselves from Him and deny Him. And we hate Christians especially because there is something about the Cross of Jesus Christ that stirs us and makes us uncomfortable.. that this man willingly went to that painful death, and that He professed that He did it to save us...
In my opinion, I think you're looking for reasons to doubt it, and have not opened your heart to the possibility that it could be true, that Jesus is who He said He is... that the Gospels written of Him are actually true. -------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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VibeUp Stranger Registered: 04/20/12 Posts: 78 Last seen: 6 years, 4 months |
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You're not a mind-reader. Many people have given the Christian Bible a fair consideration and didn't find it compelling. Others such as myself have simply judged it to be outright immoral and therefore obviously not from a god. I've read The Case for Christ and Lee's attempt at proof is made through deduction instead of evidence. There is simply no way to know that Jesus said and did the things attributed to him. Just because those particular myths have been preserved through time doesn't make them more significant to other religious myths (of which there are many) that also survived for thousands of years. You'd do well to study many different religions and I think you'll discover that they are imperfect attempts to explain that which is unknown. When they develop dogma, they become obstacles to free thinking. -------------------- "When you get the message, hang up the phone."—Alan Watts
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Markas Stranger Registered: 02/13/20 Posts: 2 Last seen: 6 years, 1 month |
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Please do not use critical pejoratives in this subforum. This sub is not designed for critical debate, anyway, so if you wish to post that way, do it in PSP, and do it more respectfully.
Edited by DividedQuantum (02/20/20 12:48 PM)
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Fiery Sword of Fire   Registered: 12/24/12 Posts: 36,574 |
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\\\  So. It's not real then! Did you want to speak to the office
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pacmanbreed  Registered: 10/12/16 Posts: 3,829 |
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OP gets it. That material can't suffice.
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saved7 follower Registered: 06/10/19 Posts: 203 Last seen: 4 years, 10 months |
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Is it immoral for God to destroy the wicked and evil? Are you a better judge of righteousness than the Creator of the universe? What right does the clay have to question the potter?
There's "simply no way to know" anything if you apply enough hyper-skepticism. How do you know you really exist in this physical world, and you're not really hooked up to the Matrix? In this life at least, you will never have enough evidence that doesn't leave at least a small place to doubt. This is a philsophical box we put ourselves in to hide from the truth. If you want to doubt, God lets you doubt. Understand that even ancient Israelites who directly witnessed divine miracles in their very presence began doubting almost immediately afterwards. This is basically the theme of the entire Old Testament... God doing amazing miracles for His people, and then they turn their backs on Him. Thomas did not truly believe until he handled the nail-prints in the resurrected Jesus's hands. The New Testament actually reads as witnesses recalling an encounter with divinity that they couldn't quite believe was actually happening, but ultimately could not deny the truth thereof... followers who ultimately went on to preach the salvation of Jesus Christ even if it meant their death. But doubt... that's what we do. We doubt and deny God. Wasn't that the cause of our fall in the first place? It's not about "evidence" and it never has been. It's about our hearts. I think that's why God chose to demonstrate His power through weakness. (suffering and dying for us on the cross) .. Instead of amazing and fulfilling our basic senses, it's a symbol that cuts straight into our hearts and reflect on the love and compassion and forgiveness our God has for us, and the lengths He will go to rescue us and bring us back to Him.
There is no other religion that compares with Christianity and the accounts of Jesus Christ. What is like Him? Where are the other religions with something like the New Testament? There's nothing else even remotely like it. This relatively unknown man Jesus coming on the scene and being publicly humiliated and executed, his followers being scattered in fear. And yet by the close of the century, you have believers lining up to die in His name... not for a mighty Emperor of this world, but a man who died bloody on a cross, forgiving His attackers. Christianity is the only major religion to have as its central event the humiliation of its God. There is something He did there that pierces into the soul of even the fiercest skeptic. And this isn't even getting into the numerous prophecies and foreshadows written of Jesus centuries and millenia before He was even born. At a certain point, it becomes ridiculous to keep doubting, and you understand the meaning of the phrase: "Living Word" But the evidence will never take you all the way there. You have to have a heart that is open to receiving and surrendering to the Truth.
The myth of modernity is that we're somehow 'evolved' beyond ancient man. Most of our cosmological theories today are little more than re-packaged Epicureanism. I think if you peer back into the past you'll find that people back then are pretty similar to people today... Putting all their faith and worship in themselves(Human Emperors/The State as god) and the material world as demonstration of true power(military might)... It's amazing how Jesus used that very symbol of total earthly dominance (The Imperial Roman cross and death by cruxifiction used to punish any slaves that got out of line) to usher in a completely new age of seeking the kingdom of heaven through love and self-sacrifice. -------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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Blipstir Human   Registered: 05/05/14 Posts: 452 Loc: CO Mountains Last seen: 7 months, 4 days |
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ewww
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