The Ecstatic said:

Breaking: some working class people aren’t straight white christians.

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Thermal Visions said:

qman said:

Taylor is spot on as usual. The left once cared about the working class, but now it's all about racism, sexist and identity politics.

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The working class is all Bernie Sanders talks about. He was stirring up shit at the Walmart shareholder’s meeting yesterday.

You can’t make blanket statements like that. It’s as empty and false as when people on the left do it about the right.

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The Ecstatic said:

Breaking: some working class people aren’t straight white christians.

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One of my favourite comics to have been posted in the Political Cartoons thread is the one of Leftists arguing
the panel that resonates for me is one of the men trying to tell a woman that class is more important to focus on than sex/gender
and her response is simply "easy for you to say"

Given how much of the working class are women, especially in the wake of feminism uprooting concepts of women staying at home rather than working,
it is not really surprising that gender issues come up

not sure how much of the working class in America is black or whether all blacks are just criminals and therefor seperate from the working class
but if they feel they are being trampled both for being black and for being in the working class
then it seems logically consistent to me that they wish to see both issues dealt with

the biggest discouragement for me coming out as a transbian has been finding out that being a minority does not automatically convert me into the wealthy ruling class
it just means more things that people may target me for than simply being poor

qman said:

The Ecstatic said:

Breaking: some working class people aren’t straight white christians.

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So divide the working class with identity politics, mission accomplished.

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Thermal Visions said:

qman said:

Thermal Visions said:

qman said:

Taylor is spot on as usual. The left once cared about the working class, but now it's all about racism, sexist and identity politics.

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The working class is all Bernie Sanders talks about. He was stirring up shit at the Walmart shareholder’s meeting yesterday.

You can’t make blanket statements like that. It’s as empty and false as when people on the left do it about the right.

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I was speaking in generalities,  but I stand by what I stated. At one point in US politics, the left focused on the working class instead of race, gender, sexuality, religion, ethnicity and every other form of identity politics.

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I know what you mean, but pretty much all Sanders ever talks about is the plight of the American working class.

So even in terms of generalities your statement was false.

Had you said, “The Democratic Party doesn’t care about the working class”, I would have agreed

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The Ecstatic said:

qman said:

The Ecstatic said:

Breaking: some working class people aren’t straight white christians.

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So divide the working class with identity politics, mission accomplished.

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If the racists in the working class want to hurt themselves by being racists then that’s on them.

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qman said:

The Ecstatic said:

qman said:

The Ecstatic said:

Breaking: some working class people aren’t straight white christians.

---

So divide the working class with identity politics, mission accomplished.

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If the racists in the working class want to hurt themselves by being racists then that’s on them.

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Exactly, now tell the left to stop acting racist and focus ENTIRELY on ALL US citizens that form the WORKING CLASS. 

Is that too much to ask?

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Lmao what? Pivoting back to “it’s the left that are the real racists” because they don’t cater exclusively to straight white Christians?

qman said:

The Ecstatic said:

qman said:

The Ecstatic said:

Breaking: some working class people aren’t straight white christians.

---

So divide the working class with identity politics, mission accomplished.

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If the racists in the working class want to hurt themselves by being racists then that’s on them.

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Exactly, now tell the left to stop acting racist and focus ENTIRELY on ALL US citizens that form the WORKING CLASS. 

Is that too much to ask?

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Thermal Visions said:

The Ecstatic said:

If the racists in the working class want to hurt themselves by being racists then that’s on them.

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Trump is the most powerful weapon we’ve ever had to break the corporate stranglehold on the Democratic Party.

It might take 4 more years of Trump if they choose to run Biden, but my ballot won’t be cast out of racism. That’s the false narrative created by the media, buddy

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Tantrika said:

It is entirely reasonable to ask

the issue that comes up is when you are in a position to recognize that the entire working class is not equally accomodating
women, well, cis straight women who can bear children, rather than women like me
face all sorts of complications related to keeping their job if they wish to raise children
a working class woman who has no protections for materinity leave makes things more difficult on her working class husband when the household loses the second source of income in the face of her raising their child
the alternative is for poor people to have less children to maintain financial stability

if black men have more trouble getting call-backs for interviews when they have notably traditional/African names
then they have less capacity as working class men to support their families
black families break apart, black mothers end up drawing from welfare

personally, did not find limitations in the general public attitude towards me when presenting/appearing as a cis white male
but random strangers and coworkers seem to have opinions about my existence if they clock me as disabled or a tranny

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Thermal Visions said:

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Thermal Visions said:

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Thermal Visions said:

---

Thermal Visions said:

---

The Ecstatic said:

qman said:

The Ecstatic said:

Breaking: some working class people aren’t straight white christians.

---

So divide the working class with identity politics, mission accomplished.

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If the racists in the working class want to hurt themselves by being racists then that’s on them.

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The Ecstatic said:

Thermal Visions said:

The Ecstatic said:

If the racists in the working class want to hurt themselves by being racists then that’s on them.

---

Trump is the most powerful weapon we’ve ever had to break the corporate stranglehold on the Democratic Party.

It might take 4 more years of Trump if they choose to run Biden, but my ballot won’t be cast out of racism. That’s the false narrative created by the media, buddy

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I’m speaking about the people who like Sanders’ policies but will continue voting GOP so long as those policies also benefit gays and blacks and immigrants.

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The Ecstatic said:

You’re not being honest about the situation at all.

Read your post and tell me it doesn’t apply to the right AT LEAST as much as the left.


One of the problems facing the US working class is racism. If you’re a racist, you’re a perpetrator of this problem. Facts don’t care about your feelings. Like I said, if people want to hurt their own interests out of some misplaced grievance against black people or immigrants, that’s on them. Telling the left to be nicer to racists doesn’t solve racism. Telling the left to pretend racism doesn’t exist doesn’t solve racism.

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qman said:

...
The problem is helping the working class, but now you're looking for absolute perfection by trying to address every social challenge.
...

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No, am simply looking for the working class to be treated fairly across the board
if women are going to be expected to raise children, then working class women need provisions to protect their job
so that taking time off to give birth and get a child set up for a new life
does not simply mean that the business decides "fuck it, it's cheaper to replace her with another serf than support her family"

this is not a one-step process that ends here tho
parental protections for women is simply easier as a first step than parental protections across the board
because sexist perceptions of women as the child upbringers means that a stay-at-home Dad seems absurd
making paternity leave harder to argue in favour of without materinty leave in place as an example system

of course, all of this feels ridiculous for me to even bother talking about
as Canada already has parental leave systems in place
and personally know white families who have utilized the systems to raise children that they could otherwise not afford to
because we are at an unfortunate point in the development of Western Nations where native citizens are otherwise having to decide between employment and reproduction


https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/programs/laws-regulations/labour/interpretations-policies/parental-leave.html

These are the types of broken home situations that end up with men busting their ass to pay child support to their exes
and sexist perceptions of who "can" properly raise a child reinforce the uphill battle for men seeking custody

these are working class issues;
people that are wealthy enough that they don't need to be concerned about where the money will come from next month or if it's "the right time" to raise a child
want you to think they are issues of identity instead

qman said:

...
Guess what?  If we help the entire working class, most of those other issues go away.
...

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qman said:

...
If you want can to continue to play identity politics, we're going to end up where we are today- the largest wealth inequality in over 80 years.

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Am personally mostly past identity politics
am able to recognize that when people start calling rich white business owners racist for not hiring blacks
that has no implication on me as being a racist, because my identity is not hung up on the colour of my skin
and powerful white racists do not, by any stretch, mean all whites are racists
just the ones that panic and try to protect the business owners due to a sense of kinship over skin colour

how about you?

This is also the one time that the "prejudice+power" argument for racism comes up as favourable to me
as a working class white, have no power over other's employment, therefor am just a prejudice asshole rather than a racist

qman said:

The Ecstatic said:

You’re not being honest about the situation at all.

Read your post and tell me it doesn’t apply to the right AT LEAST as much as the left.


One of the problems facing the US working class is racism. If you’re a racist, you’re a perpetrator of this problem. Facts don’t care about your feelings. Like I said, if people want to hurt their own interests out of some misplaced grievance against black people or immigrants, that’s on them. Telling the left to be nicer to racists doesn’t solve racism. Telling the left to pretend racism doesn’t exist doesn’t solve racism.

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The issue here is that the left AUTOMATICALLY assumes the racism is perpetrated by whites and the victims are AUTOMATICALLY non-whites.  There's no other assumption, that in itself is a racist assertion.

The same goes for sexism, it's only a one way street.  Until the left wants to be intellectually honest about its approach when dealing with social issues, it's just going to maintain being a cultural war.

The left doesn't want equality, they want a conflict and a fight. They should focus entirely on the working class as a whole.

I'm sick of constantly being told my demographic is somehow automatically some sort of social perpetrator regardless of my beliefs and behavior. It's wrong and many people don't like it, therefore we have Trump.

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Quote:

The issue here is that the left AUTOMATICALLY assumes the racism is perpetrated by whites and the victims are AUTOMATICALLY non-whites.

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Tantrika said:

qman said:

...
The problem is helping the working class, but now you're looking for absolute perfection by trying to address every social challenge.
...

---

No, am simply looking for the working class to be treated fairly across the board
if women are going to be expected to raise children, then working class women need provisions to protect their job
so that taking time off to give birth and get a child set up for a new life
does not simply mean that the business decides "fuck it, it's cheaper to replace her with another serf than support her family"

this is not a one-step process that ends here tho
parental protections for women is simply easier as a first step than parental protections across the board
because sexist perceptions of women as the child upbringers means that a stay-at-home Dad seems absurd
making paternity leave harder to argue in favour of without materinty leave in place as an example system

of course, all of this feels ridiculous for me to even bother talking about
as Canada already has parental leave systems in place
and personally know white families who have utilized the systems to raise children that they could otherwise not afford to
because we are at an unfortunate point in the development of Western Nations where native citizens are otherwise having to decide between employment and reproduction


https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/programs/laws-regulations/labour/interpretations-policies/parental-leave.html

These are the types of broken home situations that end up with men busting their ass to pay child support to their exes
and sexist perceptions of who "can" properly raise a child reinforce the uphill battle for men seeking custody

these are working class issues;
people that are wealthy enough that they don't need to be concerned about where the money will come from next month or if it's "the right time" to raise a child
want you to think they are issues of identity instead

qman said:

...
Guess what?  If we help the entire working class, most of those other issues go away.
...

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Agree in some capacity,
but would be interested in you actually providing examples of what you mean

If the minimum wage goes up, it mitigates the issues of a husband having to work two jobs to make up for the loss of his wife's job
if households can be supported by a single paycheque, that is of benefit in a manner that mitigates some need for maternity leave

If universal health care coverage is available, it mitigates the dangers of illness or injury in terms of loss of employment

If we recognize that calling rich white racists racist for not hiring blacks does not label working class whites as racist
then working class blacks and working class whites have more opportunity for unity against their oppressors

What areas are you seeking to argue in favour of?

qman said:

...
If you want can to continue to play identity politics, we're going to end up where we are today- the largest wealth inequality in over 80 years.

---

Am personally mostly past identity politics
am able to recognize that when people start calling rich white business owners racist for not hiring blacks
that has no implication on me as being a racist, because my identity is not hung up on the colour of my skin
and powerful white racists do not, by any stretch, mean all whites are racists
just the ones that panic and try to protect the business owners due to a sense of kinship over skin colour

how about you?

This is also the one time that the "prejudice+power" argument for racism comes up as favourable to me
as a working class white, have no power over other's employment, therefor am just a prejudice asshole rather than a racist

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shivas.wisdom said:

The issue here is that qman AUTOMATICALLY assumes that the left AUTOMATICALLY assumes the [sic] racism is perpetrated by whites and the victims are AUTOMATICALLY non-whites.

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qman said:

...
Don't worry about capitalists potentially being "racist" against workers. They seek one thing, the best worker at the lowest price. If they're Hispanic and will undercut whites, so be it.  That's the thing about greed and money, it doesn't see race, sex, religion or citizenship.
...

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qman said:

...
If you're truly over identity politics, you'll stop referring to capitalists as rich white racists and labor as blacks.

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Tantrika said:

qman said:

...
Don't worry about capitalists potentially being "racist" against workers. They seek one thing, the best worker at the lowest price. If they're Hispanic and will undercut whites, so be it.  That's the thing about greed and money, it doesn't see race, sex, religion or citizenship.
...

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So then is the problem that black workers expect too much from employment
and are not being contacted back because it is cheaper to hire whites or hispanics?
and data that shows that African names get less call-backs in the first place is because it is a known fact that people of a black background expect higher wages than people of a white background?

at what point will women phase out the male workforce?
women are known for being less tough in negotiating wages, and tend to be paid less as a result
it would make consistent sense for women to be replacing men in all areas of the workforce where they are willing to accept lower wages than men

qman said:

...
If you're truly over identity politics, you'll stop referring to capitalists as rich white racists and labor as blacks.

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Do not consider all capitalists to be rich white racists, do you?
it just happens that a number of rich white racists are also capitalists, in positions of power that makes their racism have an impact on the working class

if a rich black racist is hiring only hispanics, that is still racist
do you have some examples of such?

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qman said:

...
If employers are not hiring a certain demographic at the same wage as another demographic, it's because of a logical reason in their minds.  Again, capitalists want the BEST worker at the BEST wage, it's about money, not race.

I don't know what evidence that points out that rich white capitalists are racist in nature. The fact that they may want to hire a certain demographic over another demographic doesn't establish that fact in my opinion.
...

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qman said:

...
Again, the motivation is about money, not inflicting pain and suffering on a specific demographic.  I agree, it appears that the behavior can sometimes be racist in nature, but that doesn't mean it is at all.

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The motivation to calling out racism is equality, not inflicting pain and suffering on a specific demographic

You can finally rest easy

Tantrika said:

qman said:

...
If employers are not hiring a certain demographic at the same wage as another demographic, it's because of a logical reason in their minds.  Again, capitalists want the BEST worker at the BEST wage, it's about money, not race.

I don't know what evidence that points out that rich white capitalists are racist in nature. The fact that they may want to hire a certain demographic over another demographic doesn't establish that fact in my opinion.
...

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How do you feel about data that shows that resumes with the same qualifications but differing by traditional name are treated differently?
does having a different name automatically make equal qualifications less equal?
All the BEST workers have the BEST names as well?

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qman said:

Tantrika said:

qman said:

...
If employers are not hiring a certain demographic at the same wage as another demographic, it's because of a logical reason in their minds.  Again, capitalists want the BEST worker at the BEST wage, it's about money, not race.

I don't know what evidence that points out that rich white capitalists are racist in nature. The fact that they may want to hire a certain demographic over another demographic doesn't establish that fact in my opinion.
...

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How do you feel about data that shows that resumes with the same qualifications but differing by traditional name are treated differently?
does having a different name automatically make equal qualifications less equal?
All the BEST workers have the BEST names as well?

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In the mind of the capitalists, yes that might be true. It's called using statistical commonsense in their minds. Is the potential bias flawless in nature? No, but overall it works from their capitalistic perspective.

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Points for consistency

qman said:

Tantrika said:

qman said:

...
If employers are not hiring a certain demographic at the same wage as another demographic, it's because of a logical reason in their minds.  Again, capitalists want the BEST worker at the BEST wage, it's about money, not race.

I don't know what evidence that points out that rich white capitalists are racist in nature. The fact that they may want to hire a certain demographic over another demographic doesn't establish that fact in my opinion.
...

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How do you feel about data that shows that resumes with the same qualifications but differing by traditional name are treated differently?
does having a different name automatically make equal qualifications less equal?
All the BEST workers have the BEST names as well?

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In the mind of the capitalists, yes that might be true. It's called using statistical commonsense in their minds. Is the potential bias flawless in nature? No, but overall it works from their capitalistic perspective.

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Brian Jones said:

qman said:

Tantrika said:

qman said:

...
If employers are not hiring a certain demographic at the same wage as another demographic, it's because of a logical reason in their minds.  Again, capitalists want the BEST worker at the BEST wage, it's about money, not race.

I don't know what evidence that points out that rich white capitalists are racist in nature. The fact that they may want to hire a certain demographic over another demographic doesn't establish that fact in my opinion.
...

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How do you feel about data that shows that resumes with the same qualifications but differing by traditional name are treated differently?
does having a different name automatically make equal qualifications less equal?
All the BEST workers have the BEST names as well?

---

In the mind of the capitalists, yes that might be true. It's called using statistical commonsense in their minds. Is the potential bias flawless in nature? No, but overall it works from their capitalistic perspective.

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It was a tenet in neoclassical economics (the standard supply and demand paradigm) that discrimination can not occur because capitalists rationally select the best workers. When empirical studies by liberal and radical economists showed that discrimination was prevalent NC economics invented a series of hedging strategies such as employers have a "taste for discrimination". It was purely unscientific and just exposed the inherent flaws in economic theory.

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