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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,667
Re: Making alkaline coffee [Re: Enkidu] * 3
    #26001098 - 05/19/19 07:48 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Alkalinity says nothing about pH in itself. It only refers to the buffer capacity of a solution. When applied to drinking water, regardless of the source, its alkalinity is always extremely limited.
Basicity refers to a >7 pH and tap water tends to be in the range of 7.5-9. While values like 8.8 sound high, they really are not. The absolute number of OH- ions in a pH 8.8 solution is still in the nmol range. Its effect on the acidity of the stomach is virtually zero, even in large amounts, where the dilution of the stomach acid by the volume of the water ingested in fact plays a larger role than the basicity of the water. Beyond the stomach, there is evidently no effect of slightly basic (pH <10) drinks and foodstuffs, nor is there an effect of acidic drinks and foods. The stomach does a pretty good job in regulating its pH unless medication is used that alters this capacity (e.g. proton-pump inhibitors used by those who have a dysfunctional stomach-esophagus valve).

As to the pH of blood; blood is buffered essentially by a bicarbonate buffer that maintains blood pH at 7.35-7.45 regardless of diet or other exogenous factors. Hence, acidity or basicity of foodstuffs does not significantly influence blood pH and therefore, from a health perspective, there is no reason at all to consider such diets. They were introduced IIRC somewhere in the 1950s based on an incomplete understanding of the blood buffering system in relation to diet. Later studies have demonstrated beyond any credible doubt that these diets are not effective in what they purport to do (influence blood pH level).

Notable exceptions are:
* High-acidity drinks such as soft drinks (but coffee is by far not acidic enough to constitute a credible risk) erode enamel and hence form a very real and widespread risk to dental health.
* I can very well imagine that slightly basic coffee has a different flavor profile, particularly if basic water is used to brew it. As suggested above, sodium bicarbonate may be used to make water that is slightly basic for experimentation, but I wouldn't go overboard (keep pH < 9 or 10) in order to prevent the stomach from compensating ultimately resulting in complaints such as heartburn due to periodically overactive proton/H+ generation.
* Some foodstuffs contain acids that are otherwise harmful if consumed in excess; for example, in this season, rhubarb is a popular food in some parts of the world. It contains oxalic acid, which is highly effective in breaking down calcium in the bones and thereby accelerating osteoporosis. Some suggest adding calcium carbonate to rhubarb to counter its harmful effect; while at first glance, this would make sense as the calcium carbonate would 'neutralize' the oxalic acid into oxalate. However, in the low-pH environment of the stomach this will instantly be reverted into oxalic acid and the only potential benefit of the approach is to be sought in the co-ingestion of the calcium. However, it's doubtful that that will effectively counter any bone-dissolving action of the oxalic acid, which has to do with the amount of calcium added and more importantly its bioavailability.

Long story short: if you want basic/>7pH coffee, do it because you want to do a flavor experiment, but don't expect an influence on blood pH or general wellbeing. Any effect in that direction would be psychosomatic/placebo (which in itself may be enough of a reason for some; YMMV).

Quote:

Enkidu said:
For instance soda pop and sugar are acidic but green juice is alkaline.




Sugar is not acidic in itself. Green juice: depends on how you define it, but if you are talking about juice from green-leaf plants and vegetables: they are almost certainly all slightly to moderately acidic.

If you are interested in this, I'd suggest picking up a $20 pH meter on Aliexpress or whatever and run some experiments on your drinks of choice. Also do some reading on how the pH scale works in order to get a feel for magnitudes etc. If you get that down, look into how buffer systems (chemistry) work and why the whole 'alkaline diet' thing can quite easily be recognized as bogus.


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,667
Re: Making alkaline coffee [Re: Enkidu] * 1
    #26001131 - 05/19/19 08:08 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
I would be curious to see how long an alkaline beverage stays that way anyway. CO2 from the air will dissolve and render it neutral in short order would be my guess.

weak solutions of sodium hydroxide get neutralized by air and those are far more alkaline than any alkaline water for drinking



Well, that would depend not only on the pH of the beverage but also its alkalinity (buffer capacity), and that in turn depends on where the basicity comes from. If it's from NaOH or KOH, its buffer capacity will be very low. If also the initial pH is above the pKa of sodium or potassium carbonate (whichever the OH came from), the pH will drift towards the pKa of Na2CO3 (10.33 or so) resp. K2CO3 (10.25 or thereabouts). If the initial pH is below these values, the pH will drift further downward towards the pKa of carbonic acid which is in the vicinity of 5.5 IIRC - but it will never quite get there due to the presence of the sodium and/or potassium which will maintain their buffering capacity (alkalinity).

Keep in mind that all this may take quite some time due to the low availability of CO2 and the rate at which it is absorbed by the solution. In case of making coffee, a cup of coffee of let's say pH 8.0 will have become too cold to drink much sooner than it will turn acidic...
Quote:

Enkidu said:
Well my diet consists of mainly things labeled alkaline

And I'm heeltheir than the last majority of people, especially those fosuming things considered acidic...

So I trust what I'm doing as I can see the effect

I'm 28 and people literally think I'm 19-21 range

That's more than genetics

It's lifestyle :shrug:




Lifestyle is a million factors, dietary choices constitute a portion of those. And that is apart from genetics that you've shoved aside quite quickly.
Believe whatever you want to believe; I don't have to convince you of the impossibility of linking your 'alkaline' diet to your health (whichever aspect(s) of it you're referring to). Any person capable of logical thought will understand that it's impossible to determine that relationship based on your own case. Add to that the existing, validated knowledge that alkaline diets don't really do anything and any critical thinker can make their own choices. If you're happy with your diet, then by all means keep enjoying it.

I'm all ears about the basic/>pH7 'alkaline' coffee btw - like I said, because of the flavor thing. We'll have to agree to disagree on the health aspect and call that discussion a day as far as I'm concerned.


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,667
Re: Making alkaline coffee [Re: Enkidu]
    #26001329 - 05/19/19 10:57 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Hey if you don't like apples, oranges, grapefruit, spinach, sauerkraut, kimchi etc etc it's all fine by me.


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,667
Re: Making alkaline coffee [Re: twighead]
    #26006570 - 05/22/19 12:24 AM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Instead of the suggested borax, soap and hydroxide, I'd stick with sodium bicarbonate or as a last resort even sodium carbonate (washing soda). Only a very small amount would be needed to lift the pH above 7.
I also second the suggestion to obtain a pH meter instead of just winging it.


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,667
Re: Making alkaline coffee [Re: gopher] * 1
    #26007386 - 05/22/19 01:04 PM (4 years, 8 months ago)

Regularly adding borax to one's diet doesn't sound like something that should be done without some deeper research into both the potential positive and negative effects. 1/16 tsp would be something like 0.2g of borax, which translates to about 40mg of boric acid. While this is still well below the limits at which significant health issues have been demonstrated in animal studies, it is conceivable that there are negative side effects of a more subtle nature. I'd personally be somewhat hesitant to add it to my coffee, and I'm not particularly squeamish about foods.


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