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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Tarrifs on Imported Goods
    #25985285 - 05/11/19 02:19 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

What do you guys think? Is increased tarrifs on imported goods from China and other countries a good thing or a bad thing? What are the benefits or tarrifs? What are the drawbacks?


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InvisibleAhab McBathsalts
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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 4
    #25985320 - 05/11/19 03:21 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Tariffs are a really crude economic tool in a modern globalized supply chain. It is like using a hammer to cut a steak. Under certain circumstances tariffs can make sense.

A quick example that comes to mind is the current softwood lumber dispute between Canada and the USA. The USA feels that the way we distribute timber licences for public land is an unfair competitive advantage similar to 'dumping'. The USA then imposes tariffs on that Canadian lumber to make is less advantageous and make domestic lumber more competitive by price. It raises the prices for the consumer, but it is the proper economic tool for the job. I don't agree with the softwood lumber tariffs, but given the position of the USA, it is the correct tool for the job.


The USA's dispute with China is quite different. The global supply chain has been formed over decades and manufacturing capacity in the USA has been permanently lost. There is no close substitute for many of the parts imported. It is effectively a tax on consumers, but isn't that effective as a deterant on China. China is actively seeking to reduce it's developing world status as it builds relationships with Africa and build domestic capacity for many high value items.

Other mechanisms are far more effective to achieve the desired outcomes for China. World courts for IP issues, using public funds to give research grants to domestic industries for innovation and others.

It is far easier to take a complex multi-factor issue of foreign trade and boil it down to a single solution. The USA has begin to lose it's status as the world's sole super-power it's enjoyed since the end of the Cold War. The USA has fallen behind on public education, it's workforce's skills, and it's international clout. Instead of addressing these complex issues, it is a much more populist digestible solution to blame China and install tariffs.


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: Ahab McBathsalts] * 1
    #25985392 - 05/11/19 05:40 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting perspective.

Since the US is losing its manufacturing capability while China expands theirs, would China ever just stop selling to the US maybe with certain goods?

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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 3
    #25985519 - 05/11/19 07:19 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Tarrifs are like covering up lies with more lies.

They exist to mend perceived inequalities by introducing more inequalities rather than fixing the source of problems.

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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25985548 - 05/11/19 07:44 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

The source problem are high regulations as compared to other countries, high taxes, and strict labor rules.

Perhaps it's not a "problem," but our quality of life comes at the expense of another nation's quality.

We essentially dump our trash and low wage jobs over seas. Meanwhile we are going "green."

Those factories overseas won't be going green at all.


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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: XUL]
    #25985665 - 05/11/19 09:34 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

The US has almost a $1 trillion trade deficit every year. This deficit benefits The Elite at the cost of US citizens. 

A true free market doesn't allow for this type of deficit every year, this is a controlled market.

The only solution is meaningful economic tariffs, thus far the tariffs are not enough to make any change on the deficit.

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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: qman] * 2
    #25986021 - 05/11/19 12:47 PM (4 years, 10 months ago)

If the USA didn't run such high budget deficits, the trade balance wouldn't be as severe. You can blame China and the elite, but it's congress that caused the problem.

See the twin deficits theory



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Edited by Ahab McBathsalts (05/11/19 01:11 PM)

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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: Ahab McBathsalts]
    #25986332 - 05/11/19 03:39 PM (4 years, 10 months ago)

I don't see the direct correlation at all, please explain the theory.

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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: Ahab McBathsalts]
    #25986354 - 05/11/19 03:47 PM (4 years, 10 months ago)

It would seem from the graph that the Federal Government is borrowing more when its Net Imports are lower than usual. Like compensation for lack of trade.

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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #25986430 - 05/11/19 04:19 PM (4 years, 10 months ago)

You are financing your budget deficits by issuing bonds to foreign governments and private citizens. This infusion of foreign cash is a portion of your trade deficit.

It isn't just manufacturing jobs lost to robots in China. Financing is a budget deficit leads to trade deficits when you issue bonds to pay debts.


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InvisibleAhab McBathsalts
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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: Ahab McBathsalts]
    #25986447 - 05/11/19 04:25 PM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Importing foreign cash is still an import.


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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: Ahab McBathsalts]
    #25986517 - 05/11/19 05:17 PM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ahab McBathsalts said:
You are financing your budget deficits by issuing bonds to foreign governments and private citizens. This infusion of foreign cash is a portion of your trade deficit.

It isn't just manufacturing jobs lost to robots in China. Financing is a budget deficit leads to trade deficits when you issue bonds to pay debts.




Yet, China hasn't been a buyer of US for quite a long time (2011), despite a record trade deficit with them.
https://ticdata.treasury.gov/Publish/mfh.txt

China doesn't have to buy US treasuries with their surplus of dollars from the trade surplus.

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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #25987019 - 05/11/19 10:47 PM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
It would seem from the graph that the Federal Government is borrowing more when its Net Imports are lower than usual. Like compensation for lack of trade.




Makes sense when you think about it. When the economy is strong, tax revenues are higher and budget deficits are lower. A strong economy also means consumers buy more goods and services. This means we buy more goods and services from foerjgb countries, increasing the trade deficit.


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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: koods]
    #25987991 - 05/12/19 12:31 PM (4 years, 10 months ago)

But trade wars with China are easy trump said so himself.


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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #25988091 - 05/12/19 01:25 PM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
What do you guys think? Is increased tarrifs on imported goods from China and other countries a good thing or a bad thing? What are the benefits or tarrifs? What are the drawbacks?




fuck tariffs.  It's all about F.A.R.T.S., sucka!


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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #25988214 - 05/12/19 02:32 PM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
But trade wars with China are easy trump said so himself.




This isn't a "trade war", the status quo is a trade slaughter against the US worker.

The US trade deficits are hitting record high after record high.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/09/us-trade-deficit-widens-to-50-billion-in-march.html

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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: qman]
    #25991234 - 05/14/19 12:12 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Tariffs are a waste of time.

They are unnecessary barriers to a free market economy. Why should I pay 2$ for something that costs 1$? Ever?

All tariffs do is allow everyone locally involved in that particular industry to raise the price. This isn;t the 1800s where "prohibitively expensive" meant "you ain't buying".

We got credit and shit. We still pay the full price, the full price just happens to increase by the cost of the tariff.

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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: Kryptos] * 2
    #25991578 - 05/14/19 06:09 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Where do the collected tariffs go/get used for?


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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: qman]
    #25991696 - 05/14/19 07:35 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
But trade wars with China are easy trump said so himself.




This isn't a "trade war", the status quo is a trade slaughter against the US worker.

The US trade deficits are hitting record high after record high.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/09/us-trade-deficit-widens-to-50-billion-in-march.html




Yet you want more tariffs. They don’t work.


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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #25991788 - 05/14/19 08:21 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Tariffs are a waste of time.

They are unnecessary barriers to a free market economy. Why should I pay 2$ for something that costs 1$? Ever?

All tariffs do is allow everyone locally involved in that particular industry to raise the price. This isn;t the 1800s where "prohibitively expensive" meant "you ain't buying".

We got credit and shit. We still pay the full price, the full price just happens to increase by the cost of the tariff.




It works for China, they export 6 times more than they import from the US.

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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: christopera]
    #25991790 - 05/14/19 08:23 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
Where do the collected tariffs go/get used for?




I believe it's just tax revenue that goes into the general fund.

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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: koods]
    #25991794 - 05/14/19 08:26 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
But trade wars with China are easy trump said so himself.




This isn't a "trade war", the status quo is a trade slaughter against the US worker.

The US trade deficits are hitting record high after record high.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/09/us-trade-deficit-widens-to-50-billion-in-march.html




Yet you want more tariffs. They don’t work.




They work when it's high enough to get production back to the US, otherwise it's just a useless tax.

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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: qman] * 3
    #25991799 - 05/14/19 08:28 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

It will be interesting to see how this effects the amount of revenue collected then. It's a nice subversive way of instituting a regressive tax.


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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: christopera]
    #25991817 - 05/14/19 08:44 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
It will be interesting to see how this effects the amount of revenue collected then. It's a nice subversive way of instituting a regressive tax.




The revenue will be a drop in the bucket relative to the spending and growing deficits/total debt.

Why Trump even mentions the "extra" tax revenue from tariffs is beyond me.

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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: qman]
    #25991958 - 05/14/19 10:14 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

I thought the same thing when I was watching trump answer questions this morning and he said we are making allot of money because of this , and I was like Mmmm?  The govt is taking money from us through a tax and telling us they are sticking it to China .  I wouldn’t mention that either .


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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: qman]
    #25992118 - 05/14/19 11:58 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

christopera said:
It will be interesting to see how this effects the amount of revenue collected then. It's a nice subversive way of instituting a regressive tax.




The revenue will be a drop in the bucket relative to the spending and growing deficits/total debt.

Why Trump even mentions the "extra" tax revenue from tariffs is beyond me.



Because he’s an idiot

You’re talking about a man who lost 1.17 billion dollars in ten years. He’s a financial wrecking ball and totally incompetent


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Edited by koods (05/14/19 11:59 AM)

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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: koods]
    #25992243 - 05/14/19 12:47 PM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Yet also the most wealthy president ever second only to George Washington, adjusted for inflation.

The more money you have the more you might loose.

He may be incompetent about a lot of things, but when it comes to money he schools you. You'd manage accounts worth more than some countries are worth flawlessly I'm guessing.

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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25992256 - 05/14/19 12:55 PM (4 years, 10 months ago)

You have any proof of that? His wealth is mostly self reported. As far as I know he owns a run down high rise in New York and a couple golf courses.

Let’s put it this way... do you really think he’s telling the truth about his wealth? I think you would have to be a total fool to take his word on something like that.

What does it say when trump tower his crowning jewel is in serious need of a major renovation? Have you ever been? My mother’s friend owns a condo in trump tower that she can’t sell because the building is falling apart.

Bloomberg just reported that a condo in trump tower has lost value over the past ten year, one if the only properties in New York that is losing value. (Only .25% of homes in NYC are sold at a loss)

Only 57 out of 26,000 homes sold in NYC were sold at a loss. 8 of them were in Trump Tower

Edited by koods (05/14/19 01:19 PM)

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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: koods]
    #25992393 - 05/14/19 02:17 PM (4 years, 10 months ago)


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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25992431 - 05/14/19 02:35 PM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Lol the mental gymnastics of thinking that he has to be rich because he lost so much money.

Donald trump is not a billionaire. He probably has a negative net worth. Why is he fighting so hard to hide his tax returns and the tax information we have seen is devastating. He’s a TOTAL fraud. How do you not know this already?


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Edited by koods (05/14/19 02:39 PM)

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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: koods] * 2
    #25992603 - 05/14/19 03:54 PM (4 years, 10 months ago)

:cool:

Edited by Antigov (06/15/19 10:00 PM)

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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: Antigov]
    #25993208 - 05/14/19 08:42 PM (4 years, 10 months ago)

The world largely has not progressed.  It will all end in nuclear war anyhow.  From what little I read on this, America wanted to modernize china so they became too rich for communism.  They thought that if money and technology came to china, people would want to leave communism.

Asia always has been strict and family oriented.  Something the American right is desperately tring to hold onto in the usa.

The world is not growing any larger.  Population and resources are a huge strain.  It's all going to boil over.


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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: Morel Guy] * 1
    #25993210 - 05/14/19 08:44 PM (4 years, 10 months ago)

China is communist in name only. It is an authoritarian capitalist state.


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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: koods] * 1
    #25993213 - 05/14/19 08:46 PM (4 years, 10 months ago)

That is pretty much any nation one way or another.  Sure, they use different tactics.  But a pink ribbon on a turd is just a fancy turd.


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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: Antigov]
    #25993332 - 05/14/19 09:37 PM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Antigov said:
Set the tariffs aside, trading with China is unethical because the majority of the goods produced are made with slave labor. All that cheap shit at the ‘’Dollar Store” and Harbor Freight is made by slaves.




If only we could do the ethical thing and not buy from China. But then our economy would really take a nose dive. Damn u money!

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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #25993915 - 05/15/19 07:29 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

In a world economy it's impossible to know what's made in China.  Even if something is made in the USA, parts that the product is made of are likely from overseas.

There is also a lack of quality low income housing.  They say that the middle class has shrunk.  Well around here it's a lot harder on low income people.  Rent has pretty much doubled and almost no one privately rents out apartments.  Almost everything has been bought by private companies.  Private companies are very strict in their rental contracts and who gets to rent.

I think greed got to an all time high.  Tariffs seem more of a symptom than a cure.


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Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: koods] * 1
    #25993924 - 05/15/19 07:41 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
China is communist in name only. It is an authoritarian capitalist state.




China is not as capitalistic as you might think. People are still learning about Marxism and the basic message of Marxist Leninism is being taught.
The CCP is doing a good job of planning for the future of the Chinese economy by subsidizing the development of A.I., robotics, supercomputers, solar and other high tech industries.

Under the leadership of the CCP the Chinese economy is set to overtake that of the U.S. in 2032. The CCP has invested in actually producing things, which is the opposite of the U.S., which has financialized the economy and relied upon this to continue making money in the economy, which has only enriched the elites. Millions have been lifted out of poverty and the standard of living has improved dramatically under the leadership of the CCP.


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https://youtu.be/cTsEzmFamZ8

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Invisiblevault123
SangSpell

Registered: 01/31/15
Posts: 1,229
Re: Tarrifs on Imported Goods [Re: Ahab McBathsalts]
    #25993949 - 05/15/19 08:02 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ahab McBathsalts said:
manufacturing capacity in the USA has been permanently lost.




I'm just curious, where did you hear this?




- Charles Wheelan, "Naked Statistics" Pg. 39


--------------------
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Judge Aaron Satie

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