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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms
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Airflow in a greenhouse box
    #25961647 -

I have a project I've been working on that looks like this:



Yeah, it's a messy ugly setup, like I said, working on it.  :laugh:

The plastic tub on the top right has a float valve in it to keep the level correct for a couple foggers, and a fan that pushes air into the humidification container, then into the greenhouse through the top in the back corner.  There's an exhaust on the left side at the front corner.

The problem I'm having is that I think my idea about how to put air through it might have been off.  There's a *lot* of water pooling on the floor on the right side, presumably (and probably predictably, had I thought of everything) because the fog is being pushed straight down and a significant amount of it is condensing right then and there.

So the first thought is obviously to pipe the air into the side rather than down through the top (and yeah, I know it would be even better to pull air through the exhaust, but the fans I'm working with most definitely don't handle humidity, which is why it needs a lead-up duct, which I'd eventually like to get rid of too). 

But as I started thinking about it, I wondered if rather than going from top/back/right to bottom/front/left, the best setup might be to push air in through the top/back/right corner, and exhaust through bottom/front/right, with the theory that the air would then have to circulate around the entire box before exiting on the same side it entered on.

And then, of course, the next thought is am I just going to move my condensation problem by doing that, and end up with water dripping from the roof and back side.

So...

Anybody have thoughts on how to best lay out airflow and humidity in a setup like this?

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Re: Airflow in a greenhouse box [Re: Sivarted]
    #25961718 -

Not certain in a setup like that, I made one out of a martha greenhouse ( martha tek)  I think the greenhouse or one like it can be purchased for 30dollars or less. If interested I can tell you more on what I did and my settings. I have a cool mist humidifier ran by a humidity controller in it. I have a 20 watt grow light running in the blue spectrum. I have a fan inside running 15 min every 3 hours.bottom is perlite to absorb condensation and to help humidity by evaporation.

Edited by Anoobus (04/29/19 01:05 AM)

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Re: Airflow in a greenhouse box [Re: Anoobus]
    #25961720 -

I've built a martha before, and it worked great.  I want to make *this* work just as great.

Thanks though.  :smile:

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Re: Airflow in a greenhouse box [Re: Anoobus]
    #25961723 -

What about drilling a hole ( holes)  and using micropore tape on the right side to allow more airflow and to help keep contams out? Or use a computer fan on that side blowing air out and micropore tape between the fan and the right side wall to allow airflow and prevent contams?

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Re: Airflow in a greenhouse box [Re: Anoobus]
    #25961912 -

For the size of your fruiting chamber, I think you stated your issue when you said, " a couple of foggers ".

https://www.coolerguys.com/collections/waterproof-resistant-fans/products/coolerguys-120mm-120x120x38-high-speed-ip67-fan

also something like that, which is water resistant/proofish could help with your lead pipe n stuff. It is also pretty powerful which will help with moving air across all the surfaces you are soaking to help evaporate the water. Maybe stronger than you need but they have others too.


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Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.

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Re: Airflow in a greenhouse box [Re: seagu]
    #25962424 -

I'm not sure the total volume of fog is too much, if that's what you're trying to say.  The foggers are small pond foggers.

The substrate blocks themselves are actually on the dry side, and there is no pooling on the left side of the chamber, just the right side directly underneath where the air comes in.

And according to the inkbird sensor I put in there recently, the rh doesnt go much above 90, so I really dont think the condensation issue is due to the volume of fog.

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Re: Airflow in a greenhouse box [Re: Sivarted]
    #25962736 -

How many gallons of water those foggers put out per hour or minute? I used to have an issue like you are describing with only 1 fogger and a much bigger fruiting area.. I had to drastically cut down on the fog time. As well as increase air movement. Dunno.. just my 2 cents and experience.


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Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.

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Re: Airflow in a greenhouse box [Re: Sivarted]
    #25963002 -

Is there a way you could provide some straight length downstream of the humidifier? The problem isn't condensation (there should be no temperature differential between your box and the ambient), it's that you're just blowing fog. This article has the basics covered.

Additionally, it's hard to accurately control humidity with the setup you have. The humidifier is essentially on-off, and so is the fan you have running, so there's not a lot of opportunity for fine-tuning. You're going to be hunting to reach setpoint.

more edit

Is that fan deadheaded directly into two 90 elbows of flex?

I don't necessarily see any reason why the air entering the box has to be humidified before; it's just adding more complication as evidenced by the pooling. Why not reorient so that the fog disperses through a 2" PVC pipe with 1/4" drill bit attached to it akin to a real humidifier wand, but put it in the chamber? Add some supports underneath and relocate the basin to below. Then you can do whatever you want for air in/out.

What is controlling your humidifier? Is it just a set timer? With the two small fans you have, it may be oversaturating the air in the chamber.


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your voice silent, music, drone, will never enter your ears ever again.

Edited by banishedfromtime (04/29/19 04:43 PM)

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Re: Airflow in a greenhouse box [Re: banishedfromtime]
    #25963719 -

Interesting article, thanks for the link!  It deals with steam humidification, but I imagine the concepts would be the same.

Heres a better photo of the humidification setup (and yeah, it's messy and ghetto as fuck, but this is all a prototype :laugh:)



The foggers are just single-disc ultrasonic pond foggers, and there are 2 of them because in my early testing, a single one couldn't keep the humidity up enough without running significantly more than the manufacturer recommends.  (Although I did run those tests in an empty box, and a full one will hold humidity *much* better)

The fan is just a CPU fan, I believe it was rated at 140ish cubic feet per minute?  Obviously that will be reduced by putting it through ducts and pipes, but the chamber is only 12 cubic feet, so that should be plenty.

The flexible duct run from the fan to the humidification box is purely to keep the fan dry because I'm not (yet) using a waterproof one, and because it turns out that directly above the box was a less than ideal placement for a fan that needed to stay dry.  (The last one I built years ago for my Martha was in a much larger tub, I routed it in from the side rather than the top, and it was a lot further away from the direct output of the foggers)

My concern with adding a duct between the humidifier and the fruiting chamber would be exactly something mentioned in that article: providing an ideal environment for microorganisms.

I'm a little bit unclear on what exactly you are suggesting with the basin underneath.  Do you mean to run pipe from there to a pipe that runs the length of the chamber and distributes humidity through holes in the pipe?  I could easily see something like that helping with both mixing the moisture into the air and distributing it much more evenly, and am kinda smacking myself for not considering something like that in the first place.  But I have the same concerns about creating an environment for nasties to grow and multiply, and would prefer not to end up with piping that has to be cleaned super-regularly.  In that sort of setup, is there a placement of the output pipe that is best?  Seems like along the top would be ideal, and the pipe leading up to the outputs would mix the air well enough to minimize the problem I'm currently having, which is soaking everything directly underneath the output?

Or are you suggesting putting the box directly in the chamber and letting the fog just float directly out of it (or be pulled out by airflow)?  In that case, I'd be sacrificing some of the growing space, and imagine I'd have similar problems soaking things nearby and still needing to figure out the best way to align airflow to distribute the humidity well.

The foggers and fan are currently controlled by timers, and yeah, that's not ideal, but it's not a final solution, and I have spent some time trying to tune it as much as i can.  If it wasnt soaked on one side and dry on the other it would be a lot closer.

The timer setup (which is kind of an amusing Frankenstein's monster of digital timers and power supplies for the fan and foggers) that I have is the fan set to run for a period of time to lower the humidity, then the foggers kick on and the fan continues to run.  I'd have to look to know for sure, but it's something like 9 minutes fan, then 6 minutes fan+foggers, then 5 minutes off, for a full cycle every 20 minutes.

At some point, that timer monstrosity is all going to be replaced with an arduino with a combo of relays and a humidity sensor for all the timings.  :smile:

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Re: Airflow in a greenhouse box [Re: Sivarted]
    #25964213 -

This is in my line of work so it's of interest, I'll take a look when I'm not at my office.


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your voice silent, music, drone, will never enter your ears ever again.

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Re: Airflow in a greenhouse box [Re: banishedfromtime]
    #25965188 -

I'm confused; are the 5 gallons reservoirs for a secondary reservoir (the plastic bin with the float in it?)

What if you just house the steam generation in the grow chamber and sacrifice a bit of grow room? Put CPU fans on a timer to run; 120mm CPU fans are generally rated from like 20-40 CFM, the fan wheel diameter is not large enough to produce 140 CFM like you stated.

What are your room conditions (normal temp, RH%) compared to what you want in the fruiting chamber? We could calculate how long to run each component to get whatever fresh air exchanges you're looking for and still maintain RH.

Do you have a model # for the pond fogger?


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your voice silent, music, drone, will never enter your ears ever again.

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Re: Airflow in a greenhouse box [Re: banishedfromtime]
    #25965402 -

Its 74cfm.  Not sure why I had 140 in my head.  I did buy them 3 years ago and am just now starting to set things up again.  :smile:

The top white bucket has water in it, feeding the plastic bin through a float valve.  The bottom white bucket and the cinder block are just there to raise it up higher because the gravity feed was pretty slow through the valve, and I thought that might give it a boost.  Not actually sure on that bit.  :smile:

It's not steam generation though, theres no heat being applied, they're ultrasonic foggers.  A couple of these guys: 

https://www.walmart.com/ip/AGPtEK-Aluminum-Mist-Maker-Fog-Maker-for-Water-Fountain-Pond-Rockery-Fishtank-Vase-Birdbath/48009562?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=1284&adid=22222222228035678958&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=m&wl3=56993448098&wl4=pla-89134735298&wl5=9053130&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=112561964&wl11=online&wl12=48009562&wl13=&veh=sem&gclid=Cj0KCQjw5J_mBRDVARIsAGqGLZDJVobenmIO8MtA7UZrt9L2n3jfFGWeUNyz_glcCtK9tg4azD2ZkG4aAjWGEALw_wcB

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Re: Airflow in a greenhouse box [Re: Sivarted]
    #25965417 -

74cfm is still more than is needed to clear the space (12 cf).  The goal is not to just maintain humidity but to fluctuate it as well, and I'll honestly probably end up programming those bits into the arduino, which will allow all the flexibility I could ever want on parameters, assuming that the humidity sensors I've been able to find are reliable.

And even if they dont hold up for long in high humidity (the data sheet suggests they should, and they have a filter on them that is meant to allow them to do so), but they're also like $8 sensors, so I have my doubts), I could have a calibration mode that uses the sensor to figure out pretty close to accurate timings for the desired results.

My main concerns right now are how to best arrange input and output points on the chamber to maximize the even distribution of airflow, and how to avoid soaking the floor, or whatever is either right next to the foggers or in the path of the wherever the fog is entering.

Obviously pointing the fog directly at the floor on little more than a single elbow is less than ideal.  :smile:

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Re: Airflow in a greenhouse box [Re: Sivarted]
    #25966940 -

Okay, so the white box has water level controlled by float from storage chamber (5gal buckets up higher) and is misting that chamber then the air goes through the 6" flex.

Why not cut a hole in the bottom of the chamber and put like some wire mesh screen in it, and just have that be the vent for the mister basin? attach it to the underside, leave the penetration clear of obstructions, maybe in the center. Then rearrange the fans so that they're just in a crossflow orientation mounted on the sides of the box (short ends).

As far as sensor location, if you have additional inputs on the controller, I'd put two in different locations; check where there are any pooling trouble spots and set a limit there.

Set your fans to time for like 5 minutes once an hour. You won't really be able to maintain a steady state of humidifying/ventilating (unless your fans have decent turndown). Usually to maintain environmental criteria buildings have air conditioners to treat the air and get it to the right temp/humidity and then cool/warm air is delivered to the space. In this situation we're trying to do the treating of the air in the space itself so it's a bit more challenging.


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your voice silent, music, drone, will never enter your ears ever again.

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Re: Airflow in a greenhouse box [Re: banishedfromtime]
    #25967097 -

The only white "boxes" are the buckets.  (I think they're 3 gallon, definitely not 5).  The clear box has the float valve and the foggers in it.  The top white bucket has water and gravity feeds the clear tub.  (The lower bucket is really just for extra height)

The fan pushes air through the clear tub, and pushes fog from there through the PVC elbow into the chamber.

I'm not sure I understand what there is to be gained by putting the foggers underneath, and theres the disadvantage of losing grow space, which is a big deal because I'm planning smaller ones that only have room for 4 sawdust blocks.

Also, 5 minutes per hour is not anywhere near enough fresh air for oysters and most gourmets.

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Re: Airflow in a greenhouse box [Re: Sivarted]
    #25970899 -

I mean, technically you're recircing within a room, so there's zero "fresh" air.

You said the box is 12 cubic feet; so if the fan is running at 74 CFM (let's say 70 CFM for pressure drop and misc inefficiencies assuming side-mounted like I have described; in your hookup there is significant pressure drop and my guess would be maybe 30 CFM, these fans typically do not have a lot of static), running that for 5 minutes would turn over 350 cubic feet of air, or 29 air changes an hour. FYI ISO 7/EU Grade C (under HEPA filtration) is achieved at ~30 ACH.

I'm not familiar with the requirements of non-cubes. Forget the equipment, what would be the ideal air conditions of a grow cycle over a 24 hour period?


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your voice silent, music, drone, will never enter your ears ever again.

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