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OfflineAra16w
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Help With Trich Outbreak
    #25945655 - 04/20/19 12:34 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Removed.

Edited by Ara16w (04/27/19 04:57 PM)

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OfflineAra16w
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
    #25945671 - 04/20/19 12:42 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

I apologize for the length but I'm trying my best to be thorough. One last clarification, I've probably produced over 3lbs of dried mushrooms inside a mini GH with a 90%+ success rate over the last 3 months. Now, I have the green thumb and virtually no success :sad:

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
    #25945683 - 04/20/19 12:50 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

First if all fuck those pics for being hosted elsewhere and being links. It sounds like your sterile technique is a mess especially going from a SAB to a trash bag... as for your oats going bad without being opened again I recommend you PC them for 3hr @18PSI and observe. What is your lid design?

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OfflineAra16w
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Failboat]
    #25945692 - 04/20/19 12:55 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

My bad on the pics, have yet to figure out how to upload here. I started with the trash bag tek prior to getting a SAB. I reverted just to try something different.

Lids are Ball brand plastic. I've tried tightening them all the way, leaving a little loose, and going around the seal with micropore tape. Makes no difference. I have successfully used them in the past. Even use the pp5 ziplock twist n seals to mix it up but it's the same outcome now.

Edit: autocorrect is fucking me

Edited by Ara16w (04/20/19 12:56 PM)

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
    #25945744 - 04/20/19 01:33 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Your oats look like over cooked white rice.

Way too wet.

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OfflineAra16w
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Pluviophile]
    #25945757 - 04/20/19 01:41 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

:judyfacepalm:

Those oats are rice prepared via 9er tek with slightly less water, about 1:1. It's not way too wet, the pic didn't do it justice. There's no pooling water and barely any burst grains. The color came from half of the batch being prepped in diluted coffee and gypsum. The other half was plain and it made no difference nor does it when I use wbs or oats.

For clarification, the pic was just to show trich forming away from the mycelium. My jars do not have standing water and if anything have lately been too dry.

Rice was chosen for cordyceps.

Edit: I'll try to get up some better pics later when I'm home.

Edited by Ara16w (04/20/19 01:43 PM)

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
    #25945783 - 04/20/19 01:59 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Ok sorry. Nowhere in the original post does it say rice.

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Pluviophile]
    #25945786 - 04/20/19 02:02 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

He was saying they look like rice they're so fucked. And 9er tek hasn't stood the test of time for a reason. Literally when this site was first made 20 years ago it was already circulating as a garbage method.

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25945829 - 04/20/19 02:31 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Thank you for clarifying

Edited by Pluviophile (04/20/19 02:33 PM)

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OfflineAra16w
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Pluviophile]
    #25945993 - 04/20/19 04:10 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

I was being sarcastic lol. It's brown rice and they're not fucked up. The picture quality sucks but prior to the trich outbreak I was nearly flawless with it as well.

It's very finicky to get the moisture content right and not end up with a starchy brick but it's doable. That's off topic anyway.

I'll have some pics up in a few but they're still somewhat irrelevant except for establishing it is trich and the water content is correct.

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
    #25946151 - 04/20/19 05:31 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)



The WBS was a little dry and darker as a result. There are no puddles and there was minimal burst grain on the bottom. It was shaken up and mixed after PCing.

It is 1 out of 6 survivors from a batch of 20 using a colonized grass seed slurry inside a SAB. The spawn was beginning to pin with no unusual odor or indicator of contamination.




This is whole brown rice using minor variations to the 9er tek. It's cordyceps militaris which is why I chose rice and the 2nd pic demonstrates the only reason I bothered to post it. The mycelium colonized the length of the spawn rather nicely because it's fluffy. On the other side of the jar trich is beginning to develop independently of the LC.

It was PCed for 2 hours and knocked up inside a trash bag and covered with micropore tape at nearly the same time the needle was removed. I have 10 other jars just like it where healthy mycelium is separated by a large section of rice and trich forming somewhere near the other side of the jar.



These are two MS agar plates stacked in a ziplock bag. Prints were scraped with an exacto and scratched onto the agar. Again, sorry for the picture quality but they do demonstrate sterile technique.

Only healthy mycelium can be seen originating from the pile of spores whereas all my others have odd blotches of trich throughout and one looks like it was sneezed on. They were handled the same with the top lid raised for just long enough to slide the exacto in and deposit the sample. From there, they were quickly stacked in a ziplock bag.



This is the same whole brown rice as above except in a ziplock container. Notice the air pockets and lack of excessive moisture. You can see healthy mycelium and this as of yet to contaminate.




Lastly is a jar of whole oats that's nearly colonized. It appears a little too dry but healthy. It's the only survivor from the aforementioned batch that sat on the counter uninoculated for 2 weeks before contaminating. I'm hesitant to use it for G2G until I get this resolved.

The point is I've done a variety of methods with a variety of grains and containers with few problems until recently. Now, bulk is just wasting time and effort because my success rate reversed because of trich.

If it's my technique then that's fine because that's correctable. However, I do not think that I grew over 30lbs of fresh mushrooms with bad technique and luck. You'd also have to say that I was consistently lucky too until about a month ago which makes it more unlikely.

My concern is that even with "guarantees" like perfectly prepared spawn sterilized the correct length of time and inoculated with a clean agar wedge in a SAB with minimal exposure will still lead to trich. It's as if the air is too saturated with trich spores as it's my only contaminate.

The other possibility is that my PC quit doing it's job. Again, I vent 10 minutes, and cook quarts for 2 hours. My unopened inoculated whole oat spawn that was a little dry if anything started going green in a week. After 1 week, 2 jars were noticeable. After 2 weeks, they were all noticeably green.

I can try upping the cook time to 3 hours as suggested but that's typically excessive and I have doubts. It's a Presto and I recently replaced the gasket and plug, but seems irrelevant to the issue.

I'm out of ideas.

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
    #25946192 - 04/20/19 05:57 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Stop using lc?

No offense but your grain prep looks like shit. I'd work on that instead of declaring your grains to be 'perfectly prepared'

What lid filters are you using?

Edited by mushboy (04/20/19 06:04 PM)

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OfflineAra16w
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: mushboy]
    #25946206 - 04/20/19 06:03 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

I've used LC, slurry from pinning cakes, a ms syringe with a 0% contamination rate from months prior, as well as a clone water slurry that was mostly if not entirely clean as well (used to produce mini cakes for slurry) and they all go green. They fucking go green if I don't put anything in them too.

I may PC a batch for 4 hours and leave it inoculated just to see how long it takes.

Edit: You misread. I said "if I used", not that I used perfectly prepared grain. A little dry does not look like shit.

Edited by Ara16w (04/20/19 06:07 PM)

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
    #25946215 - 04/20/19 06:07 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

If they go green without opening then you either have filter(lid) failure or you are not pcing properly.

Just because something worked in the past doesnt mean it will work now. LC, slurries? Clone water?? Mold magnets imo if not used correctly.

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
    #25946222 - 04/20/19 06:10 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Did you say you had jars grow trich that had never been opened after the PC?  or did I misunderstand.  Ive been under the belief that trich was easily killed by heat, long before the PC starts building pressure, that the long PC times were for bacteria.

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: mushboy]
    #25946243 - 04/20/19 06:18 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

There's no filter. They're just Ball brand plastic lids. I've tried super tight, a little loose, even some with micropore tape around where the lid and bottle meet to protect against the vacuum when opening the PC. It makes no difference.

For some of the older successful mini cakes I've used and saved for slurries, they're just various pp5 containers with 1 of the 4 corners cracked and closed upon opening the PC. They're fruiting invitro now.

The other trial was just an aluminum foil lid I've used successfully in the past as well.

Yes, unopened jars left on the kitchen counter grew trich within 2 weeks. The whole oat jar is the last survivor from that batch.

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
    #25946251 - 04/20/19 06:22 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Why are you cracking open pp5 lids in the pc?

Have you tried taking the jars out the moment the PC hits zero psi?

I couldn't imagine using tin foil for a grain lid, mold city:facepalm:

Have you used a 2 piece lids with a GE hole?

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: mushboy]
    #25946284 - 04/20/19 06:53 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

You crack a corner so the pressure doesn't crush the plastic container. If you close it with the container too hot, you get a similar result.



Those are two of my favorites but I've never had any problems with them. Typically, I use them to make mini cakes for the blender out of either grass seed or rice. It's only mason jars I'm having issues with but it wouldn't make a difference.

I let the PC reach zero psi and wait an additional 30 minutes before trying to remove them. Occasionally, I'll let them sit and cool overnight.

Tin foil works fine if you don't shake your jars but it's a pain in the ass and why I prefer the screw on lids. I started out with tin foil years ago. As long as you have a good seal it gets the job done.

I've never used 2 piece lids nor injection ports for that matter. Still air, clean hands, jars, and equipment have never let me down til recently.

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: mushboy]
    #25946285 - 04/20/19 06:53 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Only healthy mycelium can be seen originating from the pile of spores whereas all my others have odd blotches of trich throughout and one looks like it was sneezed on.



What do you mean it looked like it was sneezed on? Like this?


I don't know how common a problem they are but when I had the problems that you're having, like uninoculated jars contaminating, it was from mites. They're too tiny to see. I only discovered them when there were so many that some larger species started appearing, I guess to feed on the little ones.


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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
    #25946291 - 04/20/19 07:01 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ara16w said:
You crack a corner so the pressure doesn't crush the plastic container. If you close it with the container too hot, you get a similar result.






That's why you put a GE hole in the lid.

Sterilizing a container only to relay on a crack corner or tin foil is how I would grow mold:shrug:

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Kizzle]
    #25946307 - 04/20/19 07:09 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Yes lol, like the splatter pattern at the top right of the plate. The difference is mine are trich green with a white border. I'd take pics of that too but that the edges aren't wrapped. They're just confined to a baggie til I use them.

As for the mites, I have no idea. Years ago I had issues with gnats during fruiting and maggots in some jars but nothing like that in a very long time.

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: mushboy]
    #25946318 - 04/20/19 07:17 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

GE isn't necessary the way I was using those. It's far more empty space than spawn. There's plenty of air to colonize a thin layer of grass seed or rice.

Think of it like an LC but it uses blended grain.

You are correct now. I wouldn't try it now because my unopened jars are contaminating. In the past it was a non-issue. I lost very few doing that method but I did learn the GE problem from having one of those nearly filled with rice stall.

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
    #25946328 - 04/20/19 07:23 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ara16w said:
Yes lol, like the splatter pattern at the top right of the plate. The difference is mine are trich green with a white border. I'd take pics of that too but that the edges aren't wrapped. They're just confined to a baggie til I use them.

As for the mites, I have no idea. Years ago I had issues with gnats during fruiting and maggots in some jars but nothing like that in a very long time.



Here's another one. I put a grain from a jar that didn't even show any mold. You can see the little trail leading away from the grain and the mold colonies it left behind.


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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Kizzle]
    #25946340 - 04/20/19 07:30 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)



There's a finished one I forgot about in the same container using the same method. The mushrooms pushed the lid off lol. It's either straight grass seed or grass seed and vermiculite.

Some of my methods may be a little unorthodox but I'm far from a noob. That's why when I say nothing works it's concerning. I could try 20 different methods on every grain imaginable for various cook times and still only grow trich now. It's not even a plethora of contaminates, just trich.

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
    #25946344 - 04/20/19 07:35 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

I hear yeah. I was regularly getting Trich after the 2nd flush. Since I moved out of that place, which was well over a year ago I haven't run into Trich even once.


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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Kizzle]
    #25946368 - 04/20/19 07:58 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

I really hope moving out is not the answer to this problem.

Here's some more pics to further bastardize the status quo:




Guess which jar is most likely to be clean mycelium. The two on the right are trich pretending to be mycelium. They stink and have yellow myc piss in the bottom which will grow into a nice green substrate. Trust me, I know :rolleyes:

The one with the aluminum foil lid is ancient like Zeus. It was healthy myc on wbs that stalled when it reached the exploded grain on the bottom. It probably has verm in it too but it dried and it shrank. Will probably bury it.




That's the last of my healthy "can't be done spawn". There's zero point in trying to use it though if I'm just going to be mixing it with trich.

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
    #25946411 - 04/20/19 08:30 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

What kind of odor? Minty, coconut, dirt, sour, garbage... ? Spawn with bacterial contamination may contaminate with Trich shortly after spawning even if the Trich isn't actually in the jar itself.


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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Kizzle]
    #25946427 - 04/20/19 08:40 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Sour if I'm not mistaken. It's been a while since I checked them. Even the ones that smelt normal like mushrooms turned into trich after being spawned to manure in 3 weeks. Checked after 2, still smelt and looked normal, just weren't finished colonizing.

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
    #25947572 - 04/21/19 12:58 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

What kind of filter do you use on your furnace unit? Get the best filter you can and change it every 6 months for general air flow around your house. Good for you, and good for your shrooms :P You can get a serta air filter unit thing at lowes for fifty bucks right now too, Im sure they aren't godly or anything but I have one set up in the room I work in and it seems to help, might be a placebo affect though haha

The pressure cooker thing is a bit odd though, don't know what to tell you about that on.e


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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Nikanoru]
    #25947673 - 04/21/19 02:17 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

We don't have functioning furnace unit. As mentioned in another post, this house is a cheap pos. Found this earlier behind layers of temporary insulation. Appears to be black mold I've since cleaned and am quarantining back off. There's damage to the underpinning and essentially a hole that's trapping moisture.



Surprisingly, I've grown no black mold even with my SAB a few feet from it, just trich.

I did have an activated carbon furnace filter on the back of a box fan to reduce the smell of smoke. Initially, I had it behind my trash bag and / or SAB without any problems. I don't know that it helped but it was pulling air away from my inoculation site.

The bottom line is I caused the trich problem. The first time I got it I didn't catch it in time. The additional 8 or so tubs going green and me being slow to catch it released an astronomical amount of trich spores. That's the only explanation I have for PCed uninoculated quart jars going green in a week.

I'm bleach / vinegar bombing my house and we'll see what happens I guess. It's been a huge pain in the ass.

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
    #25947705 - 04/21/19 02:42 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

I separated the "sneeze" plate to get a pic as to illustrate the spore load.



Makes little sense to me how I can get something that contaminated, completely clean, and mostly clean in the same stack of plates doing one after the other. The MS plate should be equally filthy but it's not.



Edited by Ara16w (04/21/19 02:45 PM)

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
    #25957766 - 04/26/19 08:45 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ara16w said:
We don't have functioning furnace unit. As mentioned in another post, this house is a cheap pos. Found this earlier behind layers of temporary insulation. Appears to be black mold I've since cleaned and am quarantining back off. There's damage to the underpinning and essentially a hole that's trapping moisture.



Surprisingly, I've grown no black mold even with my SAB a few feet from it, just trich.

I did have an activated carbon furnace filter on the back of a box fan to reduce the smell of smoke. Initially, I had it behind my trash bag and / or SAB without any problems. I don't know that it helped but it was pulling air away from my inoculation site.

The bottom line is I caused the trich problem. The first time I got it I didn't catch it in time. The additional 8 or so tubs going green and me being slow to catch it released an astronomical amount of trich spores. That's the only explanation I have for PCed uninoculated quart jars going green in a week.

I'm bleach / vinegar bombing my house and we'll see what happens I guess. It's been a huge pain in the ass.




That’s Fucked! Im sorry dude good luck, maybe try covering it with a plastic sheet, or use antifungal paint. Pick a room and seal it with antifungal paint, make that your room for stuff only open the pc in there ect. You should still have a SAB or a flowhood would help the air. Maybe even a regular air scrubber and use glove box.

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Palmer1997]
    #25957786 - 04/26/19 08:54 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

An open air flowhood won't fix that. Situations like these are why you never open a contaminated jar in your home.


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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Professor X]
    #25958884 - 04/27/19 01:40 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

What got me was most likely bad spawn. I had 6 or so 8-10 quart substrate tubs go green on me at once and I didn't catch them til after they sporulated inside my mini GH. When I went to check if they were done, opened it, released it, and had to carry it to the other end of the house (closed of course). It was just a ridiculous amount of trich spores.

That mold spot had been there this whole time and hadn't caused me any issues that I've noticed. I made up a solution of 10% or less bleach water with an equal amount of vinegar added last and sprayed the entire house with it several days in a row. Also, mopped with it and got a new activated charcoal furnace filter on the back of a box fan that I let run on high for 2 days.

Hopefully, that's enough to get the problem under control.

Like I tried to say before, I was happy with my sterile technique. I've been doing this on and off for years and this last comeback I was having roughly 95% success rates with jars. The other indicator was that it was the first time I was having to throw old substrates away to make room that didn't contaminate (beyond a 5th flush). When I got all that trich I had 7 tubs like that in my mini GH that still didn't go green.

I have changed my SAB procedure a bit. I spray it down on the inside with that bleach vinegar solution to hopefully catch and explode mold spores rather than have them blow around every time I take an arm in or out of it.

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w] * 1
    #25958963 - 04/27/19 02:18 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ara16w said:

I have changed my SAB procedure a bit. I spray it down on the inside with that bleach vinegar solution




:facepalm:
You should of changed more. Bleach vinegar? Your SAB must stink:lol:

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: mushboy] * 2
    #25958983 - 04/27/19 02:27 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Don't be a retard never mix bleach and vinegar unless you have a fume hood and are not using it to clean with. Chlorine gas induced chemical pneumonia I've seen one time. The person wanted to kill himself from the agony that lasted for probably a week

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: mushboy]
    #25958984 - 04/27/19 02:28 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mushboy said:
Quote:

Ara16w said:

I have changed my SAB procedure a bit. I spray it down on the inside with that bleach vinegar solution




:facepalm:
You should of changed more. Bleach vinegar? Your SAB must stink:lol:




Chlorine gas: just as fragrant as it is toxic.  :thumbup:

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25959227 - 04/27/19 04:46 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Search that phrase here for the many times I've typed exactly that.  It will kill most mold spores, but not live mycelium.

It helps after mixing a 10% bleach/water solution to add as much vinegar to the solution as you used in bleach.  The vinegar will reduce the pH to the point it will penetrate cell walls easier, increasing the sanitizing power.  However, it's still just a disinfectant, and much more effective against bacteria and virus than mold.
RR




https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/12927534#12927534

Learnt from the best. It was his advice in another thread that gave me the idea to do it the first place. It was stated after mass trich sporulation, that was all you could do.

I'd be a lot more concerned if it wasn't so diluted and actually produced any of the effects associated with chlorine gas.

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
    #25959233 - 04/27/19 04:50 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Or dont spray the sab with weird chemicals? Completely unnecessary and borderline dangerous.

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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: mushboy]
    #25959243 - 04/27/19 04:56 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
To the original poster, spray the still-air-box inside with water and then use.  You don't need to wait for spore settling time.  The water you spray will knock the contaminants to the walls or floor of the box and hold them there.  Keep your flame on the outside of the box.  Pull your arm out to flame the tools and then re-insert and work.

Still air boxes are not sterile, nor is the air inside them sterile.  It's only a way to stop drafts while you work, quickly.
RR




Close the thread, it's ran its course. Dialogue only serves as an excuse for some of the people here to be assholes.

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