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Ara16w
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Registered: 06/21/11
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Help With Trich Outbreak
#25945655 - 04/20/19 12:34 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Removed.
Edited by Ara16w (04/27/19 04:57 PM)
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Ara16w
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
#25945671 - 04/20/19 12:42 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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I apologize for the length but I'm trying my best to be thorough. One last clarification, I've probably produced over 3lbs of dried mushrooms inside a mini GH with a 90%+ success rate over the last 3 months. Now, I have the green thumb and virtually no success
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Failboat
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
#25945683 - 04/20/19 12:50 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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First if all fuck those pics for being hosted elsewhere and being links. It sounds like your sterile technique is a mess especially going from a SAB to a trash bag... as for your oats going bad without being opened again I recommend you PC them for 3hr @18PSI and observe. What is your lid design?
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Ara16w
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Failboat]
#25945692 - 04/20/19 12:55 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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My bad on the pics, have yet to figure out how to upload here. I started with the trash bag tek prior to getting a SAB. I reverted just to try something different.
Lids are Ball brand plastic. I've tried tightening them all the way, leaving a little loose, and going around the seal with micropore tape. Makes no difference. I have successfully used them in the past. Even use the pp5 ziplock twist n seals to mix it up but it's the same outcome now.
Edit: autocorrect is fucking me
Edited by Ara16w (04/20/19 12:56 PM)
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Pluviophile
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
#25945744 - 04/20/19 01:33 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Your oats look like over cooked white rice.
Way too wet.
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Ara16w
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Pluviophile]
#25945757 - 04/20/19 01:41 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Those oats are rice prepared via 9er tek with slightly less water, about 1:1. It's not way too wet, the pic didn't do it justice. There's no pooling water and barely any burst grains. The color came from half of the batch being prepped in diluted coffee and gypsum. The other half was plain and it made no difference nor does it when I use wbs or oats.
For clarification, the pic was just to show trich forming away from the mycelium. My jars do not have standing water and if anything have lately been too dry.
Rice was chosen for cordyceps.
Edit: I'll try to get up some better pics later when I'm home.
Edited by Ara16w (04/20/19 01:43 PM)
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Pluviophile
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
#25945783 - 04/20/19 01:59 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ok sorry. Nowhere in the original post does it say rice.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Pluviophile]
#25945786 - 04/20/19 02:02 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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He was saying they look like rice they're so fucked. And 9er tek hasn't stood the test of time for a reason. Literally when this site was first made 20 years ago it was already circulating as a garbage method.
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Pluviophile
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: bodhisatta]
#25945829 - 04/20/19 02:31 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thank you for clarifying
Edited by Pluviophile (04/20/19 02:33 PM)
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Ara16w
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Pluviophile]
#25945993 - 04/20/19 04:10 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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I was being sarcastic lol. It's brown rice and they're not fucked up. The picture quality sucks but prior to the trich outbreak I was nearly flawless with it as well.
It's very finicky to get the moisture content right and not end up with a starchy brick but it's doable. That's off topic anyway.
I'll have some pics up in a few but they're still somewhat irrelevant except for establishing it is trich and the water content is correct.
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Ara16w
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
#25946151 - 04/20/19 05:31 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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The WBS was a little dry and darker as a result. There are no puddles and there was minimal burst grain on the bottom. It was shaken up and mixed after PCing.
It is 1 out of 6 survivors from a batch of 20 using a colonized grass seed slurry inside a SAB. The spawn was beginning to pin with no unusual odor or indicator of contamination.

This is whole brown rice using minor variations to the 9er tek. It's cordyceps militaris which is why I chose rice and the 2nd pic demonstrates the only reason I bothered to post it. The mycelium colonized the length of the spawn rather nicely because it's fluffy. On the other side of the jar trich is beginning to develop independently of the LC.
It was PCed for 2 hours and knocked up inside a trash bag and covered with micropore tape at nearly the same time the needle was removed. I have 10 other jars just like it where healthy mycelium is separated by a large section of rice and trich forming somewhere near the other side of the jar.

These are two MS agar plates stacked in a ziplock bag. Prints were scraped with an exacto and scratched onto the agar. Again, sorry for the picture quality but they do demonstrate sterile technique.
Only healthy mycelium can be seen originating from the pile of spores whereas all my others have odd blotches of trich throughout and one looks like it was sneezed on. They were handled the same with the top lid raised for just long enough to slide the exacto in and deposit the sample. From there, they were quickly stacked in a ziplock bag.
 This is the same whole brown rice as above except in a ziplock container. Notice the air pockets and lack of excessive moisture. You can see healthy mycelium and this as of yet to contaminate.

Lastly is a jar of whole oats that's nearly colonized. It appears a little too dry but healthy. It's the only survivor from the aforementioned batch that sat on the counter uninoculated for 2 weeks before contaminating. I'm hesitant to use it for G2G until I get this resolved.
The point is I've done a variety of methods with a variety of grains and containers with few problems until recently. Now, bulk is just wasting time and effort because my success rate reversed because of trich.
If it's my technique then that's fine because that's correctable. However, I do not think that I grew over 30lbs of fresh mushrooms with bad technique and luck. You'd also have to say that I was consistently lucky too until about a month ago which makes it more unlikely.
My concern is that even with "guarantees" like perfectly prepared spawn sterilized the correct length of time and inoculated with a clean agar wedge in a SAB with minimal exposure will still lead to trich. It's as if the air is too saturated with trich spores as it's my only contaminate.
The other possibility is that my PC quit doing it's job. Again, I vent 10 minutes, and cook quarts for 2 hours. My unopened inoculated whole oat spawn that was a little dry if anything started going green in a week. After 1 week, 2 jars were noticeable. After 2 weeks, they were all noticeably green.
I can try upping the cook time to 3 hours as suggested but that's typically excessive and I have doubts. It's a Presto and I recently replaced the gasket and plug, but seems irrelevant to the issue.
I'm out of ideas.
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mushboy
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
#25946192 - 04/20/19 05:57 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Stop using lc?
No offense but your grain prep looks like shit. I'd work on that instead of declaring your grains to be 'perfectly prepared'
What lid filters are you using?
Edited by mushboy (04/20/19 06:04 PM)
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Ara16w
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: mushboy]
#25946206 - 04/20/19 06:03 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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I've used LC, slurry from pinning cakes, a ms syringe with a 0% contamination rate from months prior, as well as a clone water slurry that was mostly if not entirely clean as well (used to produce mini cakes for slurry) and they all go green. They fucking go green if I don't put anything in them too.
I may PC a batch for 4 hours and leave it inoculated just to see how long it takes.
Edit: You misread. I said "if I used", not that I used perfectly prepared grain. A little dry does not look like shit.
Edited by Ara16w (04/20/19 06:07 PM)
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mushboy
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
#25946215 - 04/20/19 06:07 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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If they go green without opening then you either have filter(lid) failure or you are not pcing properly.
Just because something worked in the past doesnt mean it will work now. LC, slurries? Clone water?? Mold magnets imo if not used correctly.
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Land Trout
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
#25946222 - 04/20/19 06:10 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Did you say you had jars grow trich that had never been opened after the PC? or did I misunderstand. Ive been under the belief that trich was easily killed by heat, long before the PC starts building pressure, that the long PC times were for bacteria.
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Ara16w
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: mushboy]
#25946243 - 04/20/19 06:18 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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There's no filter. They're just Ball brand plastic lids. I've tried super tight, a little loose, even some with micropore tape around where the lid and bottle meet to protect against the vacuum when opening the PC. It makes no difference.
For some of the older successful mini cakes I've used and saved for slurries, they're just various pp5 containers with 1 of the 4 corners cracked and closed upon opening the PC. They're fruiting invitro now.
The other trial was just an aluminum foil lid I've used successfully in the past as well.
Yes, unopened jars left on the kitchen counter grew trich within 2 weeks. The whole oat jar is the last survivor from that batch.
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mushboy
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
#25946251 - 04/20/19 06:22 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Why are you cracking open pp5 lids in the pc?
Have you tried taking the jars out the moment the PC hits zero psi?
I couldn't imagine using tin foil for a grain lid, mold city
Have you used a 2 piece lids with a GE hole?
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Ara16w
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: mushboy]
#25946284 - 04/20/19 06:53 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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You crack a corner so the pressure doesn't crush the plastic container. If you close it with the container too hot, you get a similar result.

Those are two of my favorites but I've never had any problems with them. Typically, I use them to make mini cakes for the blender out of either grass seed or rice. It's only mason jars I'm having issues with but it wouldn't make a difference.
I let the PC reach zero psi and wait an additional 30 minutes before trying to remove them. Occasionally, I'll let them sit and cool overnight.
Tin foil works fine if you don't shake your jars but it's a pain in the ass and why I prefer the screw on lids. I started out with tin foil years ago. As long as you have a good seal it gets the job done.
I've never used 2 piece lids nor injection ports for that matter. Still air, clean hands, jars, and equipment have never let me down til recently.
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Kizzle
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: mushboy]
#25946285 - 04/20/19 06:53 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Only healthy mycelium can be seen originating from the pile of spores whereas all my others have odd blotches of trich throughout and one looks like it was sneezed on.
What do you mean it looked like it was sneezed on? Like this?

I don't know how common a problem they are but when I had the problems that you're having, like uninoculated jars contaminating, it was from mites. They're too tiny to see. I only discovered them when there were so many that some larger species started appearing, I guess to feed on the little ones.
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mushboy
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Re: Help With Trich Outbreak [Re: Ara16w]
#25946291 - 04/20/19 07:01 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ara16w said: You crack a corner so the pressure doesn't crush the plastic container. If you close it with the container too hot, you get a similar result.
That's why you put a GE hole in the lid.
Sterilizing a container only to relay on a crack corner or tin foil is how I would grow mold
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