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 EchoVortex
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 A REAL threat that Bush is doing nothing about 
#2585128 - 04/20/04 11:12 PM (20 years, 10 hours ago) |
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http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/21/opinio...7gZrzaj/PBxhfdQ
The Real Nuclear Danger
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
In the summer of 2001, there was a spike in Al Qaeda "chatter" and mounting evidence that a terror strike was imminent. But without precise details, it was difficult to get the attention of top policy makers or the public ? until it was too late.
Now something similar is happening in North Korea.
North Korea is potentially more dangerous than the mess in Iraq. It probably has at least 1 to 3 nuclear weapons already, it is producing both plutonium and uranium, and it is on track to have close to 10 nuclear weapons by the end of this year.
Yet because President Bush's policy has failed in North Korea, Washington is determinedly looking the other way. When we next focus on North Korea, after the election, it could be a nuclear Wal-Mart.
North Korea not only has genuine nuclear weapons programs, but it is also the model of a rogue state: it gets its U.S. currency by printing it. That's right; it counterfeits excellent American $100 bills.
The latest disclosure, via David "Scoop" Sanger of The Times, is that the father of Pakistan's bomb, Abdul Qadeer Khan, claims that North Korea showed him three nuclear weapons in 1999. The Bush administration, after publicizing anything to do with Iraqi W.M.D., tried to keep that North Korean revelation secret.
Dr. Khan's report has not been confirmed. But this much is sure: The Bush administration has invaded a country on far less evidence.
Worse, North Korea is reprocessing enough plutonium to make an additional half-dozen weapons. It has also restarted one nuclear reactor and will soon replace the fuel rods there, producing enough plutonium for another weapon. All of that activity began during the Bush administration. North Korea is also continuing a uranium enrichment program that it covertly began in the Clinton years.
To his credit, Vice President Dick Cheney forthrightly raised concerns about North Korea's nuclear program during his trip to Beijing last week. But the administration still has no effective plan to deal with the crisis.
Soft-liners in the administration would like to negotiate a "grand bargain" with North Korea in which Kim Jong Il would accept C.V.I.D. ? that's the latest hot term, standing for "complete, verifiable and irreversible dismantlement." In exchange, the U.S. would present security assurances, and Asian countries would offer bribes of investment, energy and aid. Such a negotiated deal is the only hope, but to hard-liners, it sounds suspiciously Clintonian.
Meanwhile, the administration is playing a delaying game with six-party talks in China, and starting working-level talks in the next month through Joseph DeTrani, a former C.I.A. officer and China hand. The DeTrani channel will be an important step forward, but it's difficult to imagine a deal that both the Bush and Kim administrations could agree on ? and in the meantime, North Korea keeps churning out nukes.
"The administration is just trying to kick this can down the road," said Jonathan Pollack of the Naval War College. "In a funny way, I think both we and the North Koreans are waiting for November."
Resolving this crisis is in the interests of virtually everybody on the planet, with two exceptions: President Bush and Mr. Kim. They may have nothing else in common, except that their fathers also ran their countries, but they do share an interest in delay.
Mr. Bush has his hands full with Iraq and doesn't want attention paid to the North Korean nuclear threat, which is substantially worsening on his watch. Mr. Kim figures that he may as well wait to see whether John Kerry is elected, and he'd also like to finish reprocessing the plutonium and enriching the uranium.
While the administration has steadily become more reasonable on North Korea, it still hasn't fully accepted the unpalatable truth: the only possible route out of this crisis is a grand bargain. Mr. Bush, who listened way too much to Mr. Cheney on the topic of Iraq, should reflect on something Mr. Cheney said on his China trip about negotiations over North Korea's nuclear programs: "Time is not necessarily on our side."
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HagbardCeline
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Re: A REAL threat that Bush is doing nothing about [Re: EchoVortex]
#2585335 - 04/20/04 11:48 PM (20 years, 9 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Dr. Khan's report has not been confirmed. But this much is sure: The Bush administration has invaded a country on far less evidence.
Yes, they invaded a country on far less than the testimony of one man. At least that the only source he cites for evidence.
Tell me, what makes this evidence and this testimony believable to you? The confidence with which it is reported? The agreement across party lines that concur with the nature of the threat? The concurrence of the world community?
And if they were to take action as per your wishes, and found no such weapons, that it turns out they were only bluffing this entire time, would you then hold the administration accountable for a blunder?
Maybe it's just agreeable to you because you get another reason to criticize Bush.
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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
Edited by HagbardCeline (04/20/04 11:50 PM)
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EchoVortex
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Re: A REAL threat that Bush is doing nothing about [Re: HagbardCeline]
#2586565 - 04/21/04 10:53 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Kristof only quotes this one source, but the belief that NK has nukes has been corroborated elsewhere:
http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/nukenotes/ma03nukenote.html
North Korea has apparently become the world?s ninth nuclear power. Last November, the CIA estimated that Pyongyang has one, perhaps two, nuclear weapons.
From a report in early 2003:
http://www.cdi.org/nuclear/nk-fact-sheet.cfm
If North Korea restarts its five-megawatt facility, which would likely take about two months, it could produce at least one nuclear weapon per year beginning in mid 2003. 25?? When completed, the two larger facilities could produce around 55 nuclear weapons annually. Additionally, by using its spent fuel and restarting its reprocessing plant, North Korea could likely begin producing nuclear weapons by spring 2003. With the entire Yongbyon facility up and running, North Korea could make more than 200 nuclear weapons by decade's end.
And if they were to take action as per your wishes, and found no such weapons, that it turns out they were only bluffing this entire time, would you then hold the administration accountable for a blunder?
My wishes? Why don't you tell me what my wishes are, since you seem to think you know them so well.
What the editorial proposes is negotiating with the North Koreans to get them to discontinue their nuclear program. Whether they actually have weapons at this point is uncertain; however, their capacity to produce those weapons is not disputed by anyone. Outside inspectors have seen their facilities and have confirmed that they are adequate to do the job. If you think that this situation is in any way analogous to Iraq, you are very much in the dark and need to educate yourself as quickly as possible.
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Murex
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Re: A REAL threat that Bush is doing nothing about [Re: EchoVortex]
#2593552 - 04/23/04 01:18 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Our country can't go to war with another country just because they are making nukes. Amerika isn't the only country that can have them.
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What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?
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 Baby_Hitler
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Re: A REAL threat that Bush is doing nothing about [Re: Murex]
#2593676 - 04/23/04 02:23 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have a feeling that in the next 10 years America is going to be hit with a terrorist nuke that kills millions of people. When that happens we will just kill everyone we don't trust.
The Middle east and North Korea will just be miles and miles of radioactive glass.
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This space for rent
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Cather
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Re: A REAL threat that Bush is doing nothing about [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#2593800 - 04/23/04 03:31 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think that should happen now just to avoid the possibility . Then we can engineer some plants or something that we can grow there and use the chinese as radioactive slave labour to harvest our food 
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EchoVortex
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Re: A REAL threat that Bush is doing nothing about [Re: Murex]
#2593909 - 04/23/04 05:45 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Murex said:
Our country can't go to war with another country just because they are making nukes. Amerika isn't the only country that can have them.
Who said anything about going to war?
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 Arrakis
PsilocybinPsycho
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Posts: 276
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Re: A REAL threat that Bush is doing nothing about [Re: EchoVortex]
#2593921 - 04/23/04 05:57 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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We could take NK more quickly and easily than Iraq. There wouldn't be as much guerilla warfare, for one thing, and we would destroy their missile launching capabilities right off the bat. It's just a question of alienating South Korea. NK is getting more pressure now from China than it was before. All that they want is money. Kim Jong Il's (SP?) father did the same damned thing (and Clinton made the mistake of giving them the money IMO). A communist country like that can't last long anyways. There is still pleny of time to deal with NK (which is what we are doing right now anyways, but mostly through China & South Korea).
And remember kids:
http://maddox.xmission.com/war.html
What the hell are you doing listening to the NY Times anyways?
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Funniest shit I've read in a while:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=886829&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart
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Magus
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Re: A REAL threat that Bush is doing nothing about [Re: EchoVortex]
#2594572 - 04/23/04 11:24 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Well, North Korea is prancing along the lines of Nuclear Blackmail ("Look we are making Nukes! Give us money!).
Traditionally, Nuclear Blackmail does not sit well with the government, none the less a hawkish administration like we have!
I foresee stalling on both sides. North Korea so they can build more nukes (or their first ones, whatever the case may be); and USA because in order to go to war with Korea we would need... *drumrool* a DRAFT! Yep! You got it!
What are the chances that Bush wants to instate the draft and go to war with North Korea so close to elections? None. Do you think a war with North Korea is on Bush's menu if he's re-elected? You betcha! And he's going to order a side-dish of Draft with that!
Well probably. Who am I to say that's going to happen? I'm not Bush so I don't know but I get an unpleasant feeling thinking about it because it makes so much sense.
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Disclaimer:
1. When I use the word "I", it means a friend of a friend wants me to ask. The word "I" simply cuts down on the amount of letters I need to type.
2. I do not engage in illegal activities. I am appaled by all of you and your apparent disregard for the law.
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Azmodeus
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Re: A REAL threat that Bush is doing nothing about [Re: EchoVortex]
#2594585 - 04/23/04 11:30 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Bush said he'd use nukes preemptively. Labelled n.korea a rogue state..and and evil one.
...after what happened in iraq you'd have to be stupid not to try and get as many nukes as possible before they turn thier sites to you. N. korea is just protecting its own interests, and i highly doubt they have any visions for world dominance with the current superpowers in check.
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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.
Lest we forget. "
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Divided_Sky
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Re: A REAL threat that Bush is doing nothing about [Re: Azmodeus]
#2594670 - 04/23/04 11:55 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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The reason we are not going to attack North Korea is because they already do have and can use nukes. With Iraq the point was to prevent such a situation, but with North Korea there is nothing we can do except ask them to stop and try to get China to ask them to stop. Sanctions worthless because everyone is already starving anyway and the country is about as isolated as they get. North Korea also has a much larger and better organized army than Iraq did.
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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."
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Evolving
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Re: A REAL threat that Bush is doing nothing about [Re: Divided_Sky]
#2594788 - 04/23/04 12:34 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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North Korea just makes a lot of noise so they can get cash to paper over the shortcommings inherent in the communist economic model. It's what is known as a 'shakedown.'
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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Xlea321
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Re: A REAL threat that Bush is doing nothing about [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#2596952 - 04/24/04 12:09 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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The Middle east and North Korea will just be miles and miles of radioactive glass.
No, the oil is there remember.
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: A REAL threat that Bush is doing nothing about [Re: Xlea321]
#2597222 - 04/24/04 03:17 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Even if that mattered, the oil would still be there.
Also we'd have a nice place to dump all our nuclear waste.
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This space for rent
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Xlea321
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Re: A REAL threat that Bush is doing nothing about [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#2597263 - 04/24/04 04:08 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Kinda hard getting people over there to get it out tho.
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germin8tionn8ion
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Re: A REAL threat that Bush is doing nothing about [Re: Azmodeus]
#2598747 - 04/24/04 06:46 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Azmodeus said:
...after what happened in iraq you'd have to be stupid not to try and get as many nukes as possible before they turn thier sites to you. N. korea is just protecting its own interests, and i highly doubt they have any visions for world dominance with the current superpowers in check.
It seems like another clear-cut case ofthe democratically elected government of America being entirely in the wrong and the genocidal dictatorship of another nation being entirely in the right. How many more murderous madmen will we come up against before we realize how right and ethical that way of life is!
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HagbardCeline
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Re: A REAL threat that Bush is doing nothing about [Re: EchoVortex]
#2599768 - 04/25/04 12:42 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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A REAL threat that Bush is doing nothing about.
With your emphasis on the word real, it led me to believe this was in comparison to the threat in Iraq, which you've repeatedly claimed wasn't real.
Here is the point you wish to illustrate, and to espouse it, you post this article (the first one). Since you offered no analysis, I'm forced (by my own desire to understand) to construe your message from this while referencing your other communications in this forum. Because you had no disclaimer, I can only assume you are in agreement with the author's premise. And the scenario he outlines sure sounds scary.
"It probably has at least 1 to 3 nuclear weapons already, it is producing both plutonium and uranium, and it is on track to have close to 10 nuclear weapons by the end of this year."
"Worse, North Korea is reprocessing enough plutonium to make an additional half-dozen weapons. It has also restarted one nuclear reactor and will soon replace the fuel rods there, producing enough plutonium for another weapon. All of that activity began during the Bush administration. North Korea is also continuing a uranium enrichment program that it covertly began in the Clinton years."
"Resolving this crisis is in the interests of virtually everybody on the planet, with two exceptions: President Bush and Mr. Kim."
"While the administration has steadily become more reasonable on North Korea, it still hasn't fully accepted the unpalatable truth: the only possible route out of this crisis is a grand bargain."
So...the threat from North Korea is genuine, not concocted to bolster the case of those with an agenda to advance. I see. And this has reached such critical status that our only hope is a "grand bargain" to get them to give up their asperations for aquiring nuclear weapons? And we just ignore them?
As per what I said above (agreeing with the author), it seems you think we should engage in negotiations with NK. We promise them security, give them some money, and poof. We'll have to put on a good show of course, but all will be well. But we've done nothing?
I remember NK screaming when they wanted bilateral talks with the US. They've had several communications with us, we've both made demands, and even set up six-party talks. Well, it looks like Bush has done something . Maybe you should have titled the thread "A REAL threat that Bush is doing nothing I like or agree with and there are others who think the same thing."
But then you said "Whether they actually have weapons at this point is uncertain; however, their capacity to produce those weapons is not disputed by anyone." Really? No one?
From your second source in the second post:
Today intelligence analysts generally agree that North Korea is capable of producing nuclear warheads. The Bush administration holds that North Korea has produced a few weapons, but many experts argue that difficulties in building detonation devices may thus far have prevented the North from finishing their weapons.
So you now trust what the administration allows the intelligence agencies to say?
And though you propose negotiation as the best choice, your first source of the second post said this:
The Bush administration?s hope that North Korea will give up its nuclear program seems fanciful at this point. What incentives could possibly be offered that would cause it to give up its weapons program, dismantle its nuclear complex, and agree to an intrusive verification regime? It is highly unlikely that North Korea will agree to abandon the very thing that gives it leverage with its neighbors and the United States.
While certainly not invalidating (and I know you were citing it for the nukes), it's curious you would post a source in contrast to what your promoting as the answer.
The same source also tells the CIA labeled NK a ?difficult intelligence collection target.? In what I've read, the CIA seems to be the main intelligence agency cited when discussing those matters relating to NK. The same CIA that gave us the intelligence in Iraq? You didn't believe that did you? And let's not forget what happened when it was claimed NK was developing an underground nuclear site that had been detected by satellite.
If they had really wanted nukes, they would have had them long ago. They have never said they were making them, or intend on it. Just because they took the seals and monitoring equipment off doesn't prove anything. There's no proof the reactor has even been restarted, though if it were, it would have nothing to do with nuclear weapons. Yongbyon is a radiochemical laboratory and storage facility for the fuel rods. Everything done there is in prepartion for the larger reactors to go online so they have more electricty.
Now, even if they had nukes, what's the problem? Ever heard of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty? Article X of the NPT treaty stipulates that "Each party shall in exercising its national sovereignty have the right to withdraw from the Treaty if it decides that extraordinary events, related to the subject matter of this Treaty, have jeopardized the supreme interests of its country." They're a sovereign nation, so what exactly is wrong with them having them? Oh, right...They are a REAL threat. We have nuclear weapons ourselves too you know. We have no right to tell another sovereign nation that they can't do something but we can.
Since you know enough to claim I need to educate myself about NK, I'm sure I don't need to tell you how the situation started and why it is where it is today. What have they done to us the makes them a threat? Sure you can say they intimidate SK. Yeah they lobbed a missle over Japan, but what have they done to us? When did they become a threat?
Bush has no intent, nor need, to attack or negotiate with North Korea. This is the threat he needs to justify him and his buddie's Missle Defense Shield. North Korea is simply looking to get out with their asses, and hopefully some cash to boot.
My wishes? Why don't you tell me what my wishes are, since you seem to think you know them so well.
You wish that Bush would actively negotiate with them to end their nuclear weapons ambition. How can they end something they aren't doing?
So, if the administration were actually able to reach an agreement with them (action as per your wishes) - that they'll allow intrusive inspections to guarantee their compliance and we promise security and money - if the inspectors then reported that no such weapons existed, would you be angry with Bush? With the assurance of their security, the money would allow for the continuation of an oppresive regime.
Something that could cost us a billion dollars a year in aid, with his people still starving, for nothing? (Well, we might get the Missle Defense Shield out of it.)
And you wouldn't hold Bush responsible?
And you still haven't told me why your view is believable.
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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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Mushmonkey
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Re: A REAL threat that Bush is doing nothing about [Re: HagbardCeline]
#2599940 - 04/25/04 01:57 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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nice post hagbard first off
second off.. my take on things.
North Korea isn't a threat to us, nor do they WISH to be a threat to us. What they WANT is to be considered a POSSIBLE threat.. which they are.
They're pissed off and want some international attention and respect. That's the only reason they'd develop nukes.. if in fact they are. Which, I'd say, they might be, although being so close to so many former soviet republics with missing weapons it'd be easier just to buy them.
And also if they had nukes, and had tested them.. we'd know about it, the whole world would, you can't reaaalllllyyy hide all that radiation.
North Korea's pretty jealous of South Korea, deep down. South Korea's pretty damned well along the advancement ladder, much further than nearby North Korea, largely because while SK benefitted from US support, NK languished under a big Chinese thumb.
And, ultimately and most importantly.... North Korea doesn't really like us, this is true.. but they're a conventional threat. They're old bag, the sort of thing we can deal with reasonably, one nation to another.
Iraq, and even moreso the people that Saddam was (possibly, probably) associating with are terrorists, which basically means that rather than conduct international diplomacy through the normal and proper channels they take it upon themselves to determine when the war is over (and yes I totally understand that you can almost draw a parrallel to the early years of America, right now I'm thinking about the Mexican War and more specifically the years leading up to it, but that's beside the point).
Basically you negotiate with the people that you believe will negotiate with you, and that who you believe will keep their word once it is given. Or at least if they're going to break it, it will be openly and government-sanctioned. You can't tell me anyone has any real and appreciable control over the many varied terrorists in the middle east, but I can tell you that some North Korean guy won't be launching any nukes at us without Kim Jong giving the order.
Ultimately, they are more of a threat. That's true. a nuke is bigger than a vest of c4. However a hundred people with vests of c4 blwoing themselves up is a MUCH bigger threat than a nuke that might never be used if it even exists.
You don't arrest the gun owner sitting at home watching TV, even if he's a crazy racist who doesn't like anyone from a state that ends in a vowel, if he hasn't done anything. You arrest the gaggle of whackos with knives roaming the park who think that their god has commanded them to kill all the joggers.
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i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.
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EchoVortex
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Re: A REAL threat that Bush is doing nothing about [Re: HagbardCeline]
#2600140 - 04/25/04 04:52 AM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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So you now trust what the administration allows the intelligence agencies to say?
If they were the only ones saying then one would have to take that with a grain of salt. Since I haven't seen NK's facilities and since I'm not qualified to make such determinations myself, I have no choice but to base my beliefs on the sources available to me: on their number, their evidence, and their credibility. The evidence at the moment suggests there's reason enough to be concerned. Whether NK has the capacity now or could have it in a month or six months is qualitatively not a huge difference.
The Bush administration?s hope that North Korea will give up its nuclear program seems fanciful at this point. What incentives could possibly be offered that would cause it to give up its weapons program, dismantle its nuclear complex, and agree to an intrusive verification regime? It is highly unlikely that North Korea will agree to abandon the very thing that gives it leverage with its neighbors and the United States.
While certainly not invalidating (and I know you were citing it for the nukes), it's curious you would post a source in contrast to what your promoting as the answer.
To promote a particular preliminary approach and to be able to guarantee its efficacy are two different things. The authors are entitled to their speculations, but ultimately the only way to answer the question is actually to attempt to negotiate with the North Koreans. If that approach doesn't work, then of course it's back to the drawing board.
They're a sovereign nation, so what exactly is wrong with them having them? Oh, right...They are a REAL threat. We have nuclear weapons ourselves too you know. We have no right to tell another sovereign nation that they can't do something but we can.
Who ever said the US has the right to dictate to them what to do? That's why they're called "negotiations," not "orders."
There's no proof the reactor has even been restarted, though if it were, it would have nothing to do with nuclear weapons. Yongbyon is a radiochemical laboratory and storage facility for the fuel rods. Everything done there is in prepartion for the larger reactors to go online so they have more electricty.
Yongbyon is a lot more than that. Any sources saying that that's all they're doing there?
Since you know enough to claim I need to educate myself about NK, I'm sure I don't need to tell you how the situation started and why it is where it is today. What have they done to us the makes them a threat? Sure you can say they intimidate SK. Yeah they lobbed a missle over Japan, but what have they done to us? When did they become a threat?
Their missiles can already reach US military targets in SK and Japan. This is not to mention the fact that if Tokyo were vaporized it would have a somewhat, er, negative effect on the US and world economies, to say nothing of millions killed.
It's also a bad idea, in the long run, for highly secretive rogue states to have nuclear weapons technology. If NK gets desperate enough, they just might go so far as to sell them to terrorists, although they have "promised" not to do so.
You wish that Bush would actively negotiate with them to end their nuclear weapons ambition. How can they end something they aren't doing?
Any deal to be acceptable would call for before-and-after inspections. If you show up for the "before" inspection and they can't produce any of the material they are willing to give up in return for something else, obviously they were bluffing and the deal is off.
So, if the administration were actually able to reach an agreement with them (action as per your wishes) - that they'll allow intrusive inspections to guarantee their compliance and we promise security and money - if the inspectors then reported that no such weapons existed, would you be angry with Bush? With the assurance of their security, the money would allow for the continuation of an oppresive regime.
As mentioned before, the only acceptable deal is one that involves before-and-after inspections, with the agreement rendered void if NK cannot demonstrate to inspectors that they have the capacity in the first place.
Something that could cost us a billion dollars a year in aid, with his people still starving, for nothing? (Well, we might get the Missle Defense Shield out of it.)
And you wouldn't hold Bush responsible?
If he were stupid enough to sign a deal that didn't include prior inspections to confirm capability, yeah, he would be responsible. But I think sooner or later one of his smarter advisors would point out to him that prior inspections would be an essential part of any deal, and I think that even Bush would see the logic in that. Although I could be wrong.
In general I think nuclear non-proliferation is a reasonable goal to pursue, even if it means making deals. The more countries that have nuclear weapons, the more likely that those weapons will eventually get into the hands non-state-actors who will eventually find ways to use them on civilian populations. Even if the chances of this happening are small, the consequences if it does happen are so catastrophic that a do-nothing approach is not really defensible. If you don't feel the same way, then we can simply agree to disagree.
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d33p
Welcome to Violence
Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: A REAL threat that Bush is doing nothing about [Re: EchoVortex]
#2602683 - 04/25/04 09:34 PM (19 years, 11 months ago) |
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The REAL threat are those Korean gamers who are to damned good for their own self. Any country where video games are national sports is just wierd.
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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.
bang bang
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