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OfflineMikeTesserect
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: cbeveridge3]
    #25932470 - 04/13/19 02:56 PM (11 days, 22 hours ago)

that's why its stated kratom, not mitragynine! interesting. if u could die from it I would have . any idiot knows the deaths have to be poly drugs use. scott gottileb resigned from the FDA by the way. I hope the bastard dies the hard way. either way now u mention that, why don't ppl sell purified Mitra? it would act as an opiate once extracted of course. its action depends on the mu receptor. an opiod refers to the arrangement of the molecule


Edited by MikeTesserect (04/13/19 03:04 PM)


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Offlinetacodude
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: MikeTesserect]
    #25932538 - 04/13/19 03:49 PM (11 days, 21 hours ago)

It would take ridiculous amounts to produce a usable amount let alone an amount to sell.


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OfflineHolybullshit
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: tacodude]
    #25932612 - 04/13/19 04:37 PM (11 days, 21 hours ago)

And that study was on mice, and IIRC they died of seizures, not cardiopulmonary failure.

And you've got that backwards Mike, opiates are derived from the poppy or could be expanded to include semi-synthetics, opioid means action on the receptor.


Edited by Holybullshit (04/13/19 04:39 PM)


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Invisibletrvptamine
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: JacksonMetaller]
    #25933168 - 04/13/19 10:33 PM (11 days, 15 hours ago)

Quote:

JacksonMetaller said:
Quote:

Fractal420 said:
Well obv no matter what it doesnt look good when polydrug users mix kratom in with whatever else theyre doing. Def could contribute to OD. I dont think its "all propaganda" at this point






It is entirely propaganda. The reported deaths are held to the worst standard of science imaginable. The only valid concern at this point is that combinations may be more risky that kratom alone or with contaminated product. If legitimate kratom deaths existed they wouldn't need to bolster it with these "people who died with kratom in their system but have no evidence of kratom toxicity" reports. Imagine if we autopsied everyone on this planet who had caffeine in their system at the time of death and called it an "association". News flash, addicts die with drugs in their system because addicts always have drugs in their system. Unless you can tie it to a consistent mechanism (they haven't), it is completely unreasonable to draw a connection and serves no purpose other than fear mongering.

Now I'm not of the opinion kratom "can't" kill you. People have died from excessive water intake. Anything can kill a sensitive person who took too much or combined it with another substance that is contraindicated or who had preexisting health conditions. But such things would be idiosyncracies and don't justify the paranoia. If they would stop reporting all these erroneous overdoses, I would take the legitimate ones far more seriously. But the fact of the matter here is that we have to regularly post "RIP" threads for members who overdosed on opioids, yet I can't recall a single instance we've had to do it for someone using kratom. Even if kratom killed someone somewhere, the fact that we are still pushing opioid scripts and trying to ban kratom without finding a legitimate medical use as an opioid alternative is all you really need to know to know this is straight propaganda. It is already clear it is relatively safer



THIS...
END OF DISCUSSION...


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OfflineKonyap

Registered: 06/30/07
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: trvptamine]
    #25933643 - 04/14/19 09:06 AM (11 days, 4 hours ago)

I'm beginning to think they murdered those rats by not feeding them food and water or choking them.


Edited by Konyap (04/14/19 05:41 PM)


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: Konyap] * 1
    #25934065 - 04/14/19 01:44 PM (10 days, 23 hours ago)

This story was all over every news site yesterday.  I thought "Well, this is the end".  But who knows, news moves so fast now a days, maybe people will forget about it.

Shame on the vendors who sell kratom capsules.  That's what's going to get it banned.  I honestly believe it attracts younger users and it's always the young people who die and fuck it up for everyone else.  I feel like young people wouldn't feel like buying powder and then buying the capsules and capsuling each one up.  It's not hard, but kids these days can easily get all sorts of prescription opioids and benzos, so I feel they wouldn't want to bother with kratom.










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Offlinetacodude
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: MikeTesserect]
    #25934244 - 04/14/19 03:22 PM (10 days, 22 hours ago)

You can't just blame young people as some of the most educated people are youth who've grown during a time when information access is much easier with the internet. If anything blame the ones just trying to get high willing to take something as long as it works as well as continue whatever they can to intensify the intoxication.


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OfflineFractal420
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: tacodude] * 1
    #25937518 - 04/16/19 07:43 AM (9 days, 5 hours ago)

Well yeah. My area is an opioid war zone. Guess what the most commonly prescribed opioid is for legit pain? You cant really get oxy and even vicodin with its APAP is tough. But fentanyl patches, no problem. Ironic right?

That said, you cant just give only APAP-loaded opi's out to pain patients. So if they need a higher dose they hurt their liver, and if they also take a headache med with apap, thats really dangerous. Still give out hydromorphone pills for pain. Orally they dont seem to get abused too much, but theyre strong opis.

Also, suboxone itself has strong analgesic effects, just the high wears off


--------------------
Dreaming of That face again.
It's bright and blue and shimmering.
Grinning wide
And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes.

Prying open MY third eye



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InvisibleMr Piggy
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: badchad]
    #25937714 - 04/16/19 10:55 AM (9 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Quote:

Mr Piggy said:
Quote:

Johnny Dont said:

FDA declares popular alt-medicine kratom an opioid





Bullshit.

The FDA does not consider Kratom an opiate.




They don't concern themselves with mincing definitions of "opiate," vs. "opioid," but consider kratom to be opioid. That is, it has agonist properties at the mu opioid receptor.




I saw it listed as neither on it's FDA page:

https://www.fda.gov/newsevents/publichealthfocus/ucm584952.htm

The only time opioid is mentioned is....

Quote:

FDA is concerned that kratom, which affects the same opioid brain receptors as morphine...





Notice they do not call it an opioid.  They say it uses the same opioid brain receptors.

Words matter.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: Mr Piggy]
    #25937737 - 04/16/19 11:15 AM (9 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

Mr Piggy said:


Notice they do not call it an opioid.  They say it uses the same opioid brain receptors.

Words matter.




A compound that acts on opioid receptors is called an "opioid."  That is the basic, working definition. I can recommend some basic pharmacology textbooks including Goodman and Gilman, which is considered the "bible" of pharmacology.

You can also see results of FDA's own analysis. demonstrating Kratom is an opioid. Here is a nice quote: "The new data provides even stronger evidence of kratom compounds’ opioid properties."

I can provide you the peer reviewed journal, but I'd recommend you start with the basics.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OnlineTempestDnB
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: musiclover420]
    #25939561 - 04/17/19 11:06 AM (8 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Quote:

filmoee said:
Pretty sure there oding bub.......kratom is pretty dangerous i feel like i nearly died from it before..especially when i mixed it with percocet




When mixing it perhaps, but then it's the other stuff that is a catalyst for any dangers. Who knows how much of a role kratom plays when you can already OD and die from many of these pills.

Kratom itself isn't known to be fatal. And notice how in every death they almost never have any real cause of death aside from "kratom did it, ignore all these other dangerous drugs in their system".

Also is it just me or has the "Death toll" been suspiciously doubling periodically. I remember when it was 10, then 20. After that it stayed around 40 for awhile, and now they're saying 90?

Seems pretty shady. Meanwhile how many deaths do alcohol and tobacco cause yearly? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? So even if we assume kratom is directly responsible for 90 deaths (over many years) that is barely a drop in the bucket, and most of these deaths are highly suspect to say the least.



Welp more people are using it more frequently, hence the rise in the death toll. Everything can kill people, idk why you would deny it for kratom.


--------------------

“How happy is the blameless vestal’s lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each pray’r accepted, and each wish resign’d”


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Onlinemusiclover420
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: TempestDnB]
    #25939569 - 04/17/19 11:15 AM (8 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

TempestDnB said:
Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Quote:

filmoee said:
Pretty sure there oding bub.......kratom is pretty dangerous i feel like i nearly died from it before..especially when i mixed it with percocet




When mixing it perhaps, but then it's the other stuff that is a catalyst for any dangers. Who knows how much of a role kratom plays when you can already OD and die from many of these pills.

Kratom itself isn't known to be fatal. And notice how in every death they almost never have any real cause of death aside from "kratom did it, ignore all these other dangerous drugs in their system".

Also is it just me or has the "Death toll" been suspiciously doubling periodically. I remember when it was 10, then 20. After that it stayed around 40 for awhile, and now they're saying 90?

Seems pretty shady. Meanwhile how many deaths do alcohol and tobacco cause yearly? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? So even if we assume kratom is directly responsible for 90 deaths (over many years) that is barely a drop in the bucket, and most of these deaths are highly suspect to say the least.



Welp more people are using it more frequently, hence the rise in the death toll. Everything can kill people, idk why you would deny it for kratom.




Becouse there is 0 science showing how Kratom would kill anyone...

Literally the only real danger I've heard of is rare cases where people are allergic to certain componds in Kratom.

Also if you bother looking into these deaths it's clear most if not all are BS.

Pretty much every "Kratom death" involved other more dangerous drugs known to be fatal on their own. No real cause of death was given aside from "Kratom did it". Pretty blatant reefer madness 2.0.

Speaking of Cannabis, remember early on in prohibition when they claimed it was super deadly? Look how that worked out. Everything can kill people but not all substances are even close to as dangerous. We haven't even found an LD50 for Kratom in humans, go look at the LD50 for caffeine or some other common substances.

Even water is probably more toxic then Kratom. Water toxicity in humans is not unheard of, meanwhile people eat obscene doses of Kratom without any issues. It would be easier to "OD" on water then Kratom...


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



Edited by musiclover420 (04/17/19 11:16 AM)


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InvisibleMr Piggy
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: badchad]
    #25939583 - 04/17/19 11:25 AM (8 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Quote:

Mr Piggy said:


Notice they do not call it an opioid.  They say it uses the same opioid brain receptors.

Words matter.




A compound that acts on opioid receptors is called an "opioid."  That is the basic, working definition. I can recommend some basic pharmacology textbooks including Goodman and Gilman, which is considered the "bible" of pharmacology.

You can also see results of FDA's own analysis. demonstrating Kratom is an opioid. Here is a nice quote: "The new data provides even stronger evidence of kratom compounds’ opioid properties."

I can provide you the peer reviewed journal, but I'd recommend you start with the basics.




I am not saying kratom is not an opioid, I am saying they are really dragging their feet about putting out an offical statement and classification of it.  I think that's where we're not connecting here.  Even in that link you provided they are skirting calling it a flat out opioid.  It's odd and smacks of legal ass covering.

:shrug:

There's also no need to be rude here.


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InvisibleMr Piggy
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: musiclover420]
    #25939587 - 04/17/19 11:27 AM (8 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:

meanwhile people eat obscene doses of Kratom without any issues.




I would call puking till it's blood and bile an issue.


Edited by Mr Piggy (04/17/19 11:27 AM)


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Onlinemusiclover420
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: Mr Piggy]
    #25939637 - 04/17/19 12:05 PM (8 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

Mr Piggy said:
Quote:

musiclover420 said:

meanwhile people eat obscene doses of Kratom without any issues.




I would call puking till it's blood and bile an issue.




Well that's literally the first time I've heard of puking blood from kratom, so not sure how common of an issue that is if it's even related. Probably not very common. And if you're throwing up bile there may be something wrong unrelated to the kratom, or you're using way too much or something.

Sometimes when I smoke too much I throw up bile in the morning, never blood though. And kratom actually helps me feel better and relieves my sore throat. But I wouldn't blame the throwing up on smoking itself, just my lack of self control.

Either way though throwing up blood/bile is not a common side effect. And in fact the puking is a good thing that makes it even harder to OD, since if you take too much you'll tend to just throw it up. Meanwhile even stuff like tylenol can kill you if you take too much.


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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OfflineFractal420
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: musiclover420]
    #25939958 - 04/17/19 03:17 PM (7 days, 22 hours ago)

The thing that gets me most is not knowing whether all that kratom has truly been found with lead in it. I wouldnt automatically discredit it, but who knows

Or salmonella. Sure it could be scare tactics from FDA and such. But who knows. I somehow really doubt hey care about anyones well being and kratom prolly doesnt make a dent in opi pharm sales, Purdue is already fucked, i dont know how much pharma and agencies actually care about Kratom. I can only imagine the makers of buprenorphine seeing that as competition (Reckitt and Benckisser, Orexo, etc. AFAIK Purdue and Endo dont currently make bupe or methadone)... Teva used to make OC80s real cheap but those dont exist anymore. Used to be 5 a pop on the street. Now Teva stopped even making clonazepam. They were the best at it too, better than the brand. Teva used to make generics of like every single controlled substance. Maybe theyre stepping back

I swear those actavis clonazepam in cvs and shit now is only like 80% potency compared to tevas. And thats a problem. And when FDA wont admit that generics arent all the same, its a real problem (i know, slightly OT)


--------------------
Dreaming of That face again.
It's bright and blue and shimmering.
Grinning wide
And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes.

Prying open MY third eye



Edited by Fractal420 (04/17/19 03:24 PM)


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OnlineTempestDnB
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: musiclover420]
    #25940012 - 04/17/19 03:52 PM (7 days, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Quote:

TempestDnB said:
Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Quote:

filmoee said:
Pretty sure there oding bub.......kratom is pretty dangerous i feel like i nearly died from it before..especially when i mixed it with percocet




When mixing it perhaps, but then it's the other stuff that is a catalyst for any dangers. Who knows how much of a role kratom plays when you can already OD and die from many of these pills.

Kratom itself isn't known to be fatal. And notice how in every death they almost never have any real cause of death aside from "kratom did it, ignore all these other dangerous drugs in their system".

Also is it just me or has the "Death toll" been suspiciously doubling periodically. I remember when it was 10, then 20. After that it stayed around 40 for awhile, and now they're saying 90?

Seems pretty shady. Meanwhile how many deaths do alcohol and tobacco cause yearly? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? So even if we assume kratom is directly responsible for 90 deaths (over many years) that is barely a drop in the bucket, and most of these deaths are highly suspect to say the least.



Welp more people are using it more frequently, hence the rise in the death toll. Everything can kill people, idk why you would deny it for kratom.




Becouse there is 0 science showing how Kratom would kill anyone...

Literally the only real danger I've heard of is rare cases where people are allergic to certain componds in Kratom.

Also if you bother looking into these deaths it's clear most if not all are BS.

Pretty much every "Kratom death" involved other more dangerous drugs known to be fatal on their own. No real cause of death was given aside from "Kratom did it". Pretty blatant reefer madness 2.0.

Speaking of Cannabis, remember early on in prohibition when they claimed it was super deadly? Look how that worked out. Everything can kill people but not all substances are even close to as dangerous. We haven't even found an LD50 for Kratom in humans, go look at the LD50 for caffeine or some other common substances.

Even water is probably more toxic then Kratom. Water toxicity in humans is not unheard of, meanwhile people eat obscene doses of Kratom without any issues. It would be easier to "OD" on water then Kratom...



Water is essential to live. You're mostly made of water. Krstom has none of those properties. Kratom fucks with people's guts, especially in large doses over long periods of time. Doesn't it cause seizures too?


--------------------

“How happy is the blameless vestal’s lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each pray’r accepted, and each wish resign’d”


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Onlinemusiclover420
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: TempestDnB]
    #25940061 - 04/17/19 04:20 PM (7 days, 21 hours ago)

It might cause seizures in rare cases, as can Cannabis and a lot of common drugs.

Obviously water is essential to live, my point was it like anything can be toxic at high enough doses. There's pretty much no confirmed toxicity from Kratom in humans.

Not sure what you mean by mess with the gut. Like constipation? Irritated stomach?  The former is pretty common with higher doses but there are some straightforward ways to help, it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue at lower doses.

I've used Kratom daily for years at lower doses with no real side effects. But clearly it varies person to person and depending on how it is used. As far as substances go Kratom is pretty damn safe, even coffee is more dangerous.


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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InvisibleMr Piggy
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: musiclover420]
    #25940372 - 04/17/19 08:03 PM (7 days, 17 hours ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Quote:

Mr Piggy said:
Quote:

musiclover420 said:

meanwhile people eat obscene doses of Kratom without any issues.




I would call puking till it's blood and bile an issue.




Well that's literally the first time I've heard of puking blood from kratom, so not sure how common of an issue that is if it's even related. Probably not very common. And if you're throwing up bile there may be something wrong unrelated to the kratom, or you're using way too much or something.






Uh, no buddy.  It is from taking too much kratom, and it's happened to lots of people.


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InvisibleAmanita86
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: Mr Piggy]
    #25940425 - 04/17/19 08:40 PM (7 days, 17 hours ago)

I’ve never heard report of it either, usually intestinal discomfort is about as hardcore as consequense gets.  If you had ulcers while pounding powder things would probably get aggrivated but I think it would take a little more than kratom to get through your average stomach lining enough to cause bleeding.  Bile and blood is more inline with alcohol abuse, namely hard liquor..


--------------------
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