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InvisibleJohnny Dont
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Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths
    #25929377 - 04/11/19 08:30 PM (13 days, 17 hours ago)

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna993591

Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths
U.S. health officials say overdose deaths involving the herbal supplement kratom have caused 91 deaths in 27 states.

Kratom capsules in Albany, New York, on Sept. 27, 2017.Mary Esch / AP file
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April 11, 2019, 4:14 PM ET
By Associated Press
U.S. health officials say overdose deaths involving the herbal supplement kratom are more common than previously reported.

A government report released Thursday said kratom was a cause in 91 overdose deaths in 27 states. Officials previously said they knew of 44 nationally.

FDA declares popular alt-medicine kratom an opioid
Most who died had also taken heroin, fentanyl or other drugs. But kratom was the only substance detected in seven of the deaths.


The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported the numbers after combing through death certificates and toxicology reports from an 18-month period.

Kratom comes from a plant native to Southeast Asia. It is sold in capsules and powders with claims that it helps ease pain, anxiety and drug dependence.

Officials say it causes euphoric effects like the opioid drugs behind the current nationwide overdose epidemic.


--------------------
The sensation of the vast desert still crawled under his skin and the sound of a murmuring brook still hummed in his ears. While he though to himself, "that perhaps it had all been a dream. Perhaps he himself was just an obscure character, a stranger, in someone else's dream."


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InvisibleAmanita86
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: Johnny Dont]
    #25929474 - 04/11/19 09:19 PM (13 days, 16 hours ago)

Holy shit..:facepalm:


--------------------
:mushroom2:Orange clock, pencil:bouncysmoke:
"They threw me off the hay truck about noon...":fishing:
:mushroom2:*John 14,:levitate::mushroom2::blueninja:


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: Amanita86]
    #25929510 - 04/11/19 09:47 PM (13 days, 16 hours ago)

No ones over dosing

people get sick with e. coli or choke on the powder, doesn't mean they're OD'n


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Offlinefilmoee
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: Konyap]
    #25929550 - 04/11/19 10:15 PM (13 days, 16 hours ago)

Pretty sure there oding bub.......kratom is pretty dangerous i feel like i nearly died from it before..especially when i mixed it with percocet


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Onlinemusiclover420
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: filmoee] * 1
    #25929848 - 04/12/19 04:02 AM (13 days, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

filmoee said:
Pretty sure there oding bub.......kratom is pretty dangerous i feel like i nearly died from it before..especially when i mixed it with percocet




When mixing it perhaps, but then it's the other stuff that is a catalyst for any dangers. Who knows how much of a role kratom plays when you can already OD and die from many of these pills.

Kratom itself isn't known to be fatal. And notice how in every death they almost never have any real cause of death aside from "kratom did it, ignore all these other dangerous drugs in their system".

Also is it just me or has the "Death toll" been suspiciously doubling periodically. I remember when it was 10, then 20. After that it stayed around 40 for awhile, and now they're saying 90?

Seems pretty shady. Meanwhile how many deaths do alcohol and tobacco cause yearly? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? So even if we assume kratom is directly responsible for 90 deaths (over many years) that is barely a drop in the bucket, and most of these deaths are highly suspect to say the least.


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



Edited by musiclover420 (04/12/19 04:07 AM)


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OfflineBikerfool
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: filmoee]
    #25929849 - 04/12/19 04:04 AM (13 days, 10 hours ago)

:facepalm:


--------------------
Dirty faces, dirty minds, dirty bass lines.


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Invisibletrvptamine
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: filmoee] * 2
    #25929879 - 04/12/19 05:58 AM (13 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

filmoee said:
Pretty sure there oding bub.......kratom is pretty dangerous i feel like i nearly died from it before..especially when i mixed it with percocet



Kratom is much less dangerous than even sugar. Its addictive but extremely hard to OD on.

The article even said that only 7 of the overdoses were from kratom alone.

Loo0k at the yearly death count from basically any other substance or prescription medicine and kratom will be at the bottom.

This smear campaign is ridiculous. Kratom is literally saving lives. People are so much safer taking it than real opioids. As long as you dont use it in crazy drug combos their shouldnt ever be a problem with overdosing. I mean I take 40g+ in one dose of tea usually and im completely fine. Never felt like I was close to death.


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OfflineFractal420
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: trvptamine]
    #25930120 - 04/12/19 09:53 AM (13 days, 4 hours ago)

Well obv no matter what it doesnt look good when polydrug users mix kratom in with whatever else theyre doing. Def could contribute to OD. I dont think its "all propaganda" at this point

That said i dont believe kratom ahould be banned, but it sure does need to be grown and processed under better conditions so theres no lead or salmonella for the media to report. And more importantly, so no one gets hurt.

The way i see it, theres so little oversight. Some of these vendors prolly figure its going to dope users just to get high so "who cares"

Kratom *could* be grown safely like even illicit cannabis. Even if the FDA or whatever agency has it out for kratom i doubt theyd make up deaths. It only took like 3-5 ODs for 2ce (once confused for bromo dragonfly) to be banned permanently. And that isnt an addictive drug/opioid. I think psychedelics are even scarier to the establishment tho. Sadly


--------------------
Dreaming of That face again.
It's bright and blue and shimmering.
Grinning wide
And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes.

Prying open MY third eye



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OfflineMikeTesserect
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: Johnny Dont]
    #25930246 - 04/12/19 11:24 AM (13 days, 2 hours ago)

Its impossible! The FDA doesn't police their stupid TV prescription ads either! If u can " do anything" in this world now you are bi polar lol! big business may be trying to weed out competition


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InvisibleMr Piggy
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: Johnny Dont]
    #25930410 - 04/12/19 01:17 PM (13 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

Johnny Dont said:

FDA declares popular alt-medicine kratom an opioid





Bullshit.

The FDA does not consider Kratom an opiate.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: Mr Piggy]
    #25930503 - 04/12/19 02:26 PM (12 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

Mr Piggy said:
Quote:

Johnny Dont said:

FDA declares popular alt-medicine kratom an opioid





Bullshit.

The FDA does not consider Kratom an opiate.




They don't concern themselves with mincing definitions of "opiate," vs. "opioid," but consider kratom to be opioid. That is, it has agonist properties at the mu opioid receptor.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Offlinetacodude
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: badchad] * 1
    #25930586 - 04/12/19 03:14 PM (12 days, 23 hours ago)

"Most who died had also taken heroin, fentanyl or other drugs. But kratom was the only substance detected in seven of the deaths."

So the real number is 7 minus the 3 or 4 that I can think of off the top of my head that are BS.... I assume the other 2-3 were contaminated extracts. Can anyone list the 7 BS claims


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OfflineHolybullshit
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: tacodude]
    #25930670 - 04/12/19 03:57 PM (12 days, 22 hours ago)

Almost EVERY SINGLE OD is from polydrug use. Or involves extraneous factors that don't apply to the average kratom user, it's almost like, but worse than, saying aspirin is a deadly drug because of Reye's syndrome.

The only way kratom comes close to dangerous is with shady extracts. I wish they would just go ahead and ban extracts, before whole leaf gets taken down with them.


Edited by Holybullshit (04/12/19 04:08 PM)


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Onlinemusiclover420
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: tacodude]
    #25930893 - 04/12/19 05:42 PM (12 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

tacodude said:
"Most who died had also taken heroin, fentanyl or other drugs. But kratom was the only substance detected in seven of the deaths."

So the real number is 7 minus the 3 or 4 that I can think of off the top of my head that are BS.... I assume the other 2-3 were contaminated extracts. Can anyone list the 7 BS claims




Even of those 7 it's hard to say if kratom is directly responsible, people have health complications all the time and it's very possible that it just happened while kratom was in their system.

Of all the "kratom deaths" I've seen the coroner has yet to find any real cause of death aside from "kratom/mitragynine toxicity" or some BS.


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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Offlinetacodude
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: musiclover420]
    #25930912 - 04/12/19 05:51 PM (12 days, 20 hours ago)

That was my whole point... That seven is supposedly and they're all bullshit like the one where because he person crashed their car with kratom in their blood the death was ruled to be due to the kratom and not the grievous injury that occurred, which I'm sure is one of those 7


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Offlinecbeveridge3
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: tacodude]
    #25931393 - 04/12/19 10:40 PM (12 days, 15 hours ago)

From studies I've read, the active ingredient of kratom, Mitirygine or whatever, has a similar LD50 as morphine or heroin, however, in leaf form you could never get that much in you.

But I want to say, so what if there is a tiny chance can cause an OD? It is still a much better and safer option than other opiods


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Offlinetacodude
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: cbeveridge3]
    #25931427 - 04/12/19 10:58 PM (12 days, 15 hours ago)

It's not only that, but in the leaf there's antagonists as well it essentially self manages the dose like cannabis vs synrh noids


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Onlinemusiclover420
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: cbeveridge3] * 1
    #25931663 - 04/13/19 02:36 AM (12 days, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

cbeveridge3 said:
From studies I've read, the active ingredient of kratom, Mitirygine or whatever, has a similar LD50 as morphine or heroin, however, in leaf form you could never get that much in you.

But I want to say, so what if there is a tiny chance can cause an OD? It is still a much better and safer option than other opiods




If you can find an LD50 for mitragynine or any of the other alkaloids I'd be interested in seeing them.

Been awhile since I did much research but the most I remember finding was the mg/kg per blood in rats for toxicity testing. So not sure how we'd get an accurate LD50 for humans, assuming there is one out there.

A quick search brought up results about the LD50 of mitragynine being found in mice. According to that study:

Quote:

1 - LD50 of injected, pure mitra and 7ho-mitra was about the same as H

2 - there was no oral LD50 found for 7ho-mitra (although seizures and respiratory depression occurred at high doses)

3 - oral LD50 of mitra was about 20x what it was when injected (it took 20x more to be deadly)

4 - lethal dose of oral mitra (557/mg/kgbw); avg kratom dose in study (0.15mg/kgbw); so 3,713 doses of kratom would kill you (theoretically, if this study is accurate)




So the LD50 of injected mitragynine is comparable to heroin in mice, but notice what it says about oral use. There was no oral LD50 found for 7hydroxy mytragynine, and the LD50 for mitragynine was 20x higher then when injected.

And most people aren't going to be injecting kratom extracts.


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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OfflineJacksonMetaller
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: Fractal420] * 3
    #25931691 - 04/13/19 03:13 AM (12 days, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

Fractal420 said:
Well obv no matter what it doesnt look good when polydrug users mix kratom in with whatever else theyre doing. Def could contribute to OD. I dont think its "all propaganda" at this point






It is entirely propaganda. The reported deaths are held to the worst standard of science imaginable. The only valid concern at this point is that combinations may be more risky that kratom alone or with contaminated product. If legitimate kratom deaths existed they wouldn't need to bolster it with these "people who died with kratom in their system but have no evidence of kratom toxicity" reports. Imagine if we autopsied everyone on this planet who had caffeine in their system at the time of death and called it an "association". News flash, addicts die with drugs in their system because addicts always have drugs in their system. Unless you can tie it to a consistent mechanism (they haven't), it is completely unreasonable to draw a connection and serves no purpose other than fear mongering.

Now I'm not of the opinion kratom "can't" kill you. People have died from excessive water intake. Anything can kill a sensitive person who took too much or combined it with another substance that is contraindicated or who had preexisting health conditions. But such things would be idiosyncracies and don't justify the paranoia. If they would stop reporting all these erroneous overdoses, I would take the legitimate ones far more seriously. But the fact of the matter here is that we have to regularly post "RIP" threads for members who overdosed on opioids, yet I can't recall a single instance we've had to do it for someone using kratom. Even if kratom killed someone somewhere, the fact that we are still pushing opioid scripts and trying to ban kratom without finding a legitimate medical use as an opioid alternative is all you really need to know to know this is straight propaganda. It is already clear it is relatively safer


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Offlinecbeveridge3
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Re: Herbal supplement kratom is tied to more U.S. deaths [Re: musiclover420]
    #25932281 - 04/13/19 12:51 PM (12 days, 1 hour ago)

Oh yea this is the study I looked at, your right I didn't think about that.


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