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Invisible2Experimental
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good and evil
    #2592670 - 04/22/04 11:03 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I do not know why people say good and evil do not exist. I have come to the oposite conclusion(i think)....Within this world there are systems, within the systems bounderies. How can you say murder is RIGHT.. and keep in mind every single killing is NOT murder. How can we say there are NO global laws? I think as a starting point we can say murder, or useless killing for pleasure is wrong. What else falls on this list? Stealing? Violence? There is no doubtedly acceptions in each category based on the situation. I know your saying good and evil imply there is a right or wrong, and PERHAPS even a higher power?... Well, I think even if there is no 'spirit' or 'god' that the Earth has laws, and certain things do not bring harmony into the world.... ... Please include any and all semantic / logical debates debunking any of my veiws in a CONSTUCTIVE MANNER... thx and peace out.


Edited by 2Experimental (04/23/04 12:43 AM)


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OfflineFrog
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Re: good and evil [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2592768 - 04/22/04 11:29 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Whether the systems are defined by governments or by simple morals and/or ethics, killing for no good reason is evil and is murder.  Murder has been defined as the lawless killing of another with malice aforethought.  A killing is lawful if in self-defense, or in defense of another.  And of course, killing is justified when as a punishment.  And it's excused when you kill someone due to your insanity. 

So, where do you want to go with this?  :grin:

Are we arguing good v. evil? Or what makes the killing of another okay?

Evil exists.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: good and evil [Re: Frog]
    #2592860 - 04/22/04 11:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

there are no universal ethics.
who decides whats right and wrong? each person does it for himself, but no two people will agree on this entirely.

even murder isnt universally wrong. Like you say not every killing is a murder, but who decides which are and arent?

i dunno man anyone who thinks he knows whats right for everyone else is wrong


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OfflineFrog
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Re: good and evil [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2592910 - 04/23/04 12:09 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

You're speaking in generalities, so it's difficult to respond to your statements.

We can't each of us decide what's right and what's wrong, because more than likely we will end up with lots of different rules.

Why is murder not universally wrong, for starters?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: good and evil [Re: Frog]
    #2593000 - 04/23/04 12:32 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Murder is not universally wrong because human institutions like the government don't believe it is. In society, what most people believe is wrong is what is accepted as wrong. For example: I'm afraid somebody is maybe going to have the capability to kill me someday, and I guess that he probably does want to despite the consequences to him, so I kill him. This is wrong according to the state, but when the state feels that a preemptive strike is in order they go for it, and it's all right.

I believe that living in a world with higher powers punishing the "wrong" makes us susceptible to the belief that there are powers higher than man, universal powers who would punish us for doing something wrong. People live in constant fear of there not being universal standards in behaviour. Did you know killer whales kill humpback whale babies (by drowning), eat the lower jaw, and then leave it to rot? Lions kill baby lions sired by rival males, crows perform extra-corpular (word check) abortion on other bird's eggs, baboons shit-kick eachother all the time, and unborn sharks kill eachother before exiting the womb. People of all cultures have commited murder.

In all the situations I cited above the species kill in order to further their own species, or the species they kill. The individual humpback baby dies to produce stronger ancestors less susceptible to drowning by orcas. Sacrifice the individual to benefit the whole. In the long run, murder is a positive force in the world. That's all I'll say on this subject for now.


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: good and evil [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2593047 - 04/23/04 12:42 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

"I believe that living in a world with higher powers punishing the "wrong" makes us susceptible to the belief that there are powers higher than man, universal powers who would punish us for doing something wrong"

you do not 'go to hell" for murding someone in cold blood. Your comparison of todays legal system to the matter of global ethics to me has no basis..

I think what I was shooting at was perhaps that there is harmony and discord, and both of these things exist, and bringing about harmony in the universe only brings 'posative' reactions for the 'future', where as discord, while totatly feaseable path to take in life, leads to more 'pain and suffering'.. with no ties to eternal damnation or any sort of torment in the afterlife.....


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OfflineFrog
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Re: good and evil [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2593054 - 04/23/04 12:44 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The government DOES believe murder is wrong. What do you consider "murder" in the context of your post?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: good and evil [Re: Frog]
    #2593080 - 04/23/04 12:50 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The government believes its wrong for me to murder somebody to settle differences, but on a global scale the government can send people to kill others to settle differences read: Iraq war.

2exp:

sorry to be unclear, basically I'm saying that people decide what is right and wrong, there is no non-human universal code of behaviour inherent to the universe. There may be a global code, probably known as human rights or somesuch, but beyond that, it's whatever you feel you can get away with. That's all. If I kill, feel no guilt, don't get caught, then I'm good to go, no prob. When I die I won't be punished and in life I will not be subject to bad luck.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: good and evil [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2593105 - 04/23/04 12:59 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Mixomatosis said:
The government believes its wrong for me to murder somebody to settle differences, but on a global scale the government can send people to kill others to settle differences read: Iraq war.





The government believes it's wrong to murder somebody to settle differences, correct.

There is a big difference between that and killing people for a reason, which is excusable homicide, which is like when you kill people during a war. The government didn't just decide to kill people. There was a reason for killing people.

And don't come back at me with examples of how a few people killed a few people in Iraq for no good reason.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinelostsuitcase
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Re: good and evil [Re: Frog]
    #2593694 - 04/23/04 04:39 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

"There is a big difference between that and killing people for a reason, which is excusable homicide, which is like when you kill people during a war. The government didn't just decide to kill people. There was a reason for killing people.

And don't come back at me with examples of how a few people killed a few people in Iraq for no good reason. "


huh?> governments ALWAYS kill people for one reason: their own self-interest. Same as anyone else, absolutely no difference whatsover. The only difference is scale and collateral damage.


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Offlineimarideronthestorm
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Re: good and evil [Re: lostsuitcase]
    #2593699 - 04/23/04 04:46 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

70 innocent lives of women and children burned and blown to death from the skies no thats only a few people its totally different


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Offlinefaelr
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Re: good and evil [Re: imarideronthestorm]
    #2593709 - 04/23/04 04:56 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

imarideronthestorm said:
70 innocent lives of women and children burned and blown to death from the skies no thats only a few people its totally different



hell yeah it's different. killing whether it's yourself or anyone is wrong.
and bombing, now that's just being a down right pussy. what ever happend to honor....ah the good old days!


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: good and evil [Re: Frog]
    #2594209 - 04/23/04 11:07 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

murder for pleasure is wrong, I would agree with, but not murder itself.  it depends on what's happening doesn't it?  for instance, guy comes in with a shotgun (as it happens in the bay area so often) to shoot you and your child...are you not gonna try to murder that guy first? do not animals murder to defend their young?

I do see a right and a wrong, but just for myself.  not many things can be universal. then again...i don't know how murdering for pleasure can be justified.  what about revenge???

how about when we murder animals?  how about when we murder trees...they're living beings too aren't they? or are just "super special"

a little more off topic

"And don't come back at me with examples of how a few people killed a few people in Iraq for no good reason. "

common frog you're old aren't you? hehehe :grin:

i bet the vietnam war was justified back in the day, and now 30+ years afterwards we are just finding out what shitty things our govt did to those poeple an our own troops. 

let's ask this, who is the greater threat? I wonder why WE got kicked off the UN security council.  :lol:

oh btw...the American suicide rate in Iraq is approaching the rate that was in vietnam!  :eek:

and you still have blind faith that they are "doing the right thing?"

how about our violation of the geneva convention by using plutonium shells?? look that whole war is based on, we are going to kill people so we can stop killing.  to me that sound RETARDED! use your head! the use of the shells alone is an atrocity on those people, our people, and the land there.  still have faith huh?  :shake:

we lie to our own troops and to ourselves...still have faith??

after all the US has doen to damage and destroy this earth...still faithful?  You can't make nukes or else we're gonna bomb you...but I see in the paper, congress approves research and building of "mini-nukes"  HELLLLLOOOO!!!!!!!! wanna wake up here??? hehe


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineFrog
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Re: good and evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2594215 - 04/23/04 11:11 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not saying that what our government is doing is right. I'm saying that just because the government approves of killing in Iraq doesn't mean that killing for any old reason is okay, here. Aaargh! Are we going to turn this into a political thread? Someone move it, if so, so that I don't have to look at it.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: good and evil [Re: Frog]
    #2594231 - 04/23/04 11:19 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

notice I said off topic frog, calm down...


just saying this...

"which is excusable homicide, which is like when you kill people during a war. The government didn't just decide to kill people. There was a reason for killing people."

and this

"I'm saying that just because the government approves of killing in Iraq doesn't mean that killing for any old reason is okay"

so killing for gain is ok...killing for "pleasure"???

that's what I'm saying

let's bring this back...cause I wasn't trying to make a political thread, only you suggest that one.  hence I said "off-topic" so since you got a little flustered over this I'll try to tie it back in...

the point right and wrong, 2 experiemntal started out with murder.

you said "The government believes it's wrong to murder somebody to settle differences, correct"

and my thing is, isn't that what they are doing?  if not how?  I'm not looking at the politics, but the ideas you are putting forth are conflicting...or is it a deeper level that you are thinking on? please explain  I'm tying to get REAL specific here, because most of what was said is pretty general and we are talking about right and wrong here    :grin:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineFrog
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Re: good and evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2594425 - 04/23/04 12:35 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I don't pay attention to politics and to what our government is doing.  I can't do anything about it.  But just because they are doing what they are doing doesn't mean murder is okay, here in the States. 

Why do we have to say it's okay to murder just because of what our government is doing? 

And I'm calm, kaiowas.  :grin:  hehe.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: good and evil [Re: Frog]
    #2594443 - 04/23/04 12:39 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

" don't pay attention to politics and to what our government is doing. I can't do anything about it. But just because they are doing what they are doing doesn't mean murder is okay, here in the States."

there you go again talking about politics.

"Why do we have to say it's okay to murder just because of what our government is doing?"

I don't think that's what I meant...reread what I typed i think you are misundertand what I'm saying.

I'm not saying murder is okay because the govt doing.

lets bring this back again about murder and if htat is right and wrong.  the reasons for murder.  can murder for pleasure be justified in anyway, morally speaking?  the govt was just an example.


"And I'm calm, kaiowas.  hehe. "

Aaaaaarg!!!  :lol:

hey you spelled my name right  :headbang:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: good and evil [Re: kaiowas]
    #2594880 - 04/23/04 03:02 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

"can murder for pleasure be justified in anyway, morally speaking"

well, maybe if someone was torturing you and you killed them right before they killed you , you would get 'pleasure' because you would no longer be in pain.. but ummmm I think that would be one of the few exceptions..


You make some great points about how our government is TOTALLY fucked up, and you are very much on topic with your allusions to the Nam and Rak wars... I am not sure if we can really look at what our gov., or any other gov. is doing as the standards of right and wrong though..


Frog:
"But just because they are doing what they are doing doesn't mean murder is okay, here in the States"

I would like to see someone bring up the the past mass murders the US did in a murder trial and see how the grand jury responds :lol:


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