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OfflineXUL
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Do you support the Green New Deal?
    #25891703 - 03/23/19 09:10 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Do you support the green new deal proposed by AOC?
Do you support the Green New Deal?
You may choose only one
Do you support Medicare for all?
You may choose only one
Do you want the government to have more or less control over your life?
You may choose only one
Do you support raising taxes on most all Americans?
You may choose only one
Do you support the government outlawing air travel?
You may choose only one
Do you support the government banning gas powered cars?
You may choose only one
Do you trust our government?
You may choose only one
How do you most closely identify
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (03/23/19 08:10 AM) to (No end specified)
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



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InvisibleCitizen X
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Re: Do you support the Green New Deal? [Re: XUL]
    #25891716 - 03/23/19 09:18 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

I voted stal on all of them. Until our elected officials can act like adults I don’t support or vote for anyone or anything.

I’ve seen children with better problem solving skills. Sorry that dog won’t hunt


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OfflineXUL
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Re: Do you support the Green New Deal? [Re: Citizen X]
    #25891721 - 03/23/19 09:20 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Citizen X said:
I voted stal on all of them. Until our elected officials can act like adults I don’t support or vote for anyone or anything.

I’ve seen children with better problem solving skills. Sorry that dog won’t hunt




I feel you.

I tend to agree.


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OfflineEricDeInstigator
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Re: Do you support the Green New Deal? [Re: XUL]
    #25893620 - 03/24/19 10:41 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Voting is one of the few things our country asks every citizen to do. IMO it is a duty we all owe this country for all the advantages we have.  When you vote, you are not saying you unconditionally support any candidate(or their behavior) you are saying you will do your part.  I don't know if you have ever voted... but you do not have to cast a vote in every race. When you vote and don't make a choice in a race it sends a message which can be as strong as a vote. BTW there are many very good candidates in both major parties. Certainly there are people who win office who are not fit for, that is why our forefathers wanted us all to vote, to protect our government from the bad apples. Also, remember, you vote for several levels of government in each election most never stand in front of a camera and make asses of themselves(state, federal, local, county, school, animal control ect).  I hope you you will change your mind and vote. Peace & Love
Do you vote?
Users may choose 2 (16 total votes)
Yes - I vote
-
13 81%
No - I don't vote
-
3 19%
Votes accepted from (03/24/19 07:36 AM) to (11/12/20 07:36 AM)
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.


Edited by EricDeInstigator (03/24/19 10:45 AM)


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OfflineXUL
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Re: Do you support the Green New Deal? [Re: EricDeInstigator]
    #25893649 - 03/24/19 10:54 AM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Why would you hope for me to change my mind and vote when you simultaneously claim that not voting is just as meaningful?

That seems paradoxical.


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OfflineEricDeInstigator
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Re: Do you support the Green New Deal? [Re: XUL]
    #25894472 - 03/24/19 05:04 PM (4 years, 10 months ago)

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear.  When you vote, you are not required to vote for every office.  For instance - say you wanted to say you didn't like the selections provided by the parties in a presidential race, you vote all other races and cast a "no vote" in the presidential race.  That way they know you showed up but refused to pick one or the other. That no vote is indeed a vote for change which the people will see.


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OnlineKryptos
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Re: Do you support the Green New Deal? [Re: EricDeInstigator]
    #25913987 - 04/03/19 04:36 PM (4 years, 9 months ago)

I think you should clarify some of these questions more. Lemme explain by using my votes and expanding on them.

Yes. GND is a good idea. This could also be accomplished by cutting fossil fuel subsidies and letting the market take care of it.

Yes. Medicare for all would significantly improve the lives of every individual American, allowing us to be more productive longer. More sick leave would also help here. No point having the sick guy come in, get nothing done cause they're sneezing all day, and having five sick guys come in the day after that.

I want the government to have Less control over my life. Now this might seem at odds with the above votes, but the above votes are economic ones. Here, I would like to see the government have less social control over my life. I.e.--stop dictating how I live. Abortions, marriage, bedrooms, genitals of choice, the government has no business controlling. This is why I voted less. However, the government has an interest in controlling the economic system, and providing basic services for people. In that regard, the government should have more control, through anti-trust laws, consumer safety protections, roads, schools, healthcare, etc. Somehow, the economic and social axes always get mixed up by the average American, which is quite sad, in my opinion.

No. I do not support raising taxes on most Americans. I support raising taxes on most corporations. My tax rate, right now, is 37%. This is not significantly lower than the top tax rate in the EU. However, the EU spends a lot of that tax money on its citizens, which is why the average work week is somewhere around 30 hours, once you factor in the (often) months of vacation per year. Raising the corporate tax rate to my personal tax rate would be (a) fair and (b) provide a shitton of money for public services.

No. Why would we outlaw air travel? That's dumb. Also not part of the GND. It's only part of the FOX propaganda on the GND. Maybe some sort of efficiency standards? At this point, I'd settle for literally *any* air regulation. Those Boeing 737s that crashed? The FAA let Boeing verify the safety of its own planes.

Yes. I support banning gas powered cars. Maybe not with an outright ban, but, as with the first question, by getting rid of fossil fuel subsidies. Gas is only cheap because of government welfare. If we get rid of that welfare, there won't be any gas powered cars on the road in a decade, no ban required. Ban would be nice, eventually, though. I like being able to breathe air and not exhaust.

No. I do not trust the current government and administration. Overall, I think the government is looking out for me, if only because they wanna keep collecting that 40k off my paycheck. But the current administration? They'd cut off their nose to spite their face. So I don't trust them.

Overall, I went Democratic Socialist. Even though the very party name is idiotic, well, I gotta work with what I got.


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InvisibleAhab McBathsalts
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Re: Do you support the Green New Deal? [Re: Kryptos] * 3
    #25921016 - 04/07/19 10:08 AM (4 years, 9 months ago)

Raising taxes on most Americans is a bit of a misnomer.

Quote:

The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (39.0 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.4 percent)
https://taxfoundation.org/summary-federal-income-tax-data-2017/




You don't really need to tax everyone more, just raise the top margin tax rates for the top 10% of income earners and raise capital gains taxes to tax the rich slightly more. Not like a 90% tax rate either, just bump it up 3 or 4% more from where it is right now. Essentially reversing the Trump Tax Cuts. I'd also like to see the Roth IRA and 401K become more flexible for people and unsheltered capital gains raised. Most people can shelter most of their retirement and long term savings in these vehicles and it wouldn't really affect small business owners or the majority of middle class people. Only those that are able to contribute excess of $25k a year.


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InvisibleHolybullshit
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Re: Do you support the Green New Deal? [Re: Ahab McBathsalts]
    #25922577 - 04/08/19 08:16 AM (4 years, 9 months ago)

This is an EXTREMELY leading poll...and it displays how much you have been influenced by propaganda. As of now the GND has ZERO policy framework. The GND is basically just a list of goals, it doesn't describe how to get there. Legislatively it is just a promise to work on these problems, its a mandate to meet the goals and to work on the policy, but not policy itself...


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InvisibleHolybullshit
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Re: Do you support the Green New Deal? [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #25922595 - 04/08/19 08:32 AM (4 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
No. I do not support raising taxes on most Americans. I support raising taxes on most corporations. My tax rate, right now, is 37%.




No, it's not, this may be what you pay on the margin, but doubt it's your rate unless you are filthy rich and even then if it is you need a new accountant. You have to account for the fact that every dollar leading up to $500,000($600,000 if married) is taxed at a lower rate. I assume we aren't including FICA, but even if we were, OASDI + SSI is only 7.65, if we exclude any credits, leading up to $133,000, where it drops to 1.45%.

Even that would mean your marginal rate, including FICA, at $133,000 is only 31.65%, again excluding any credits/deductions/capital gains/retirements contributions/filing single/1 personal exemption. Your effective income tax rate at that amount, under those conditions, would be 17.54%.

Even at $750,000, if you include ZERO credits, deductions, and only 1 personal exemption, and file as single, your effective rate would be 31.83%, it drops signifactly when you include credits/deductions, are married, or can declare captital gain or retirement contributions(which I imagine would be quite large if making that kind of money)

The effective income tax rate on $100,000 if filing married, no children, 2 personal exemptions, zero credits and deductions is only 8.74%, rising to 16.39% when including FICA with zero IRA/401k contributions.

At $10,000,000 per year, no capital gains, no retirements contributions, no deductions, filing single....your effective income tax rate would STILL only be 36.61%


It only reaches 37.75% at $2,000,000 when including FICA, filing single, no retirements contributions, no deductions, no capital gains.

And of course, these will all drop considerably if filing as head of household, have dependants, itemize, contribute to a retirement account, etc. And this also excludes state tax rates, which are generally 4-6%(excluding deductions). The absolute highest marginal state tax rate, when combined with sales taxes, and excluding deductions are found in Tennesee at 9.47% but with sales taxes are generally around ~6-8%, again excluding deductions, filing single, all that jazz. Which generally means your income needs to be about ~$500,000 to reach %38 without any deductions or capital gains, etc.

This gets a little more complicated if you are self-employed, and have to pay your employer portions of the FICA tax, but again excluding any and all deductions, retirements contributions, business expenses, tax credits, filing single etc...

Including FICA your tax rate would be 37.37% at $1,000,000.Only increasing to 38.53% at $2,000,000 where it stays essentially flat no matter how high you go.

Maybe that describes you, which would put you solidly in the top 1%, but at $133,000 where FICA taxes would peak your maximum tax rate would be $31.67, and would put you in the 92th percentile after taxes; but after deductions, credits, retirement contributions, etc, etc, it would be much lower.

So essentially NOBODY in America pays anywhere near a 37% federal tax rate. Unless your you are in the top 99.9% and use ZERO credits, deductions, make any retirement contrbutions, or claim any capital gains...which describes nobody.

The highest effective tax rate millionaires actually pay is ~25%, with many reducing that to ~17%(or less in some cases) thanks to good accounting and capital gains taxes or carryover losses.

But I am glad to hear that you support raising taxes on corporations. As most large multi-national corporations pay ZERO taxes, or have an extremely low effective tax rate. I also don't support raising taxes on the middle class, NOBODY DOES. And ESPECIALLY not the lower/lower-middle class, where MOST Americans now reside thanks to the disappearing middle class.

Even the MOST tax happy bureaucrats and politicians don't, they support raising taxes on wealth, which can have a dual effect of raising revenue and reducing inequality as socioeconomic inequality has ALL SORTS of damaging effects on our economy and society.

Right now inequality is higher than it has ever been, even higher than during the gilded age, higher than the inequality leading up to and causing the Great Depression.

“The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerated the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than the democratic state itself. That in its essence is fascism: ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power.” - FDR

"Let us never forget that government is ourselves and not an alien power over us. The ultimate rulers of our democracy are not a President and senators and congressmen and government officials, but the voters of this country." - FDR

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone." - Eisenhower

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together" - Eisenhower

Eisenhower's warnings against the MIC apply to all complexes, such as the PIC(private prisons), and the rise of any private power which can lead to regulatory capture, such as what we have seen with both the financial and pharmaceutical industries and now even agriculture. And the takeover of political campaigns thanks to Citizens United vs the FEC,and the election process as a result of unfettered  gerrymandering, wide spread voter suppression, the attacks on the free press. Facism begins outside government along with the rise in private power.

Attacks on our government are an attack on Democracy itself, remember that government exists to serve the people. This was the founding tenant of our government, of our Democracy, that "We the People" must retain the ultimate power and control our own destiny.


https://www.thedailybeast.com/fox-and-friends-folksy-diner-segment-derailed-by-patrons-call-for-higher-taxes-for-green-new-deal

Watch the video.


Edited by Holybullshit (04/08/19 10:31 AM)


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InvisibleHolybullshit
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Re: Do you support the Green New Deal? [Re: XUL]
    #25922886 - 04/08/19 11:03 AM (4 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

XUL said:
Why would you hope for me to change my mind and vote when you simultaneously claim that not voting is just as meaningful?

That seems paradoxical.




He is saying you can go the ballot box and vote neither...which is much more meaningful than staying home and pouting.

If you don't vote at all, the candidates and parties won't make you and those holding similar sentiments a priority, they assume they can ignore you.


Edited by Holybullshit (04/08/19 11:05 AM)


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InvisibleHolybullshit
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Re: Do you support the Green New Deal? [Re: Ahab McBathsalts]
    #25922910 - 04/08/19 11:15 AM (4 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ahab McBathsalts said:
You don't really need to tax everyone more, just raise the top margin tax rates for the top 10% of income earners and raise capital gains taxes to tax the rich slightly more. Not like a 90% tax rate either, just bump it up 3 or 4% more from where it is right now. Essentially reversing the Trump Tax Cuts.




^This.

The Trump tax cuts and his administration will increase the debt by $2.7 TRILLION dollars over the next decade. It's actual cost is much higher.

"In April 2018, the CBO’s annual budget forecast predicted that the combination of the president’s tax and spending policies would increase US borrowing by $2.7 trillion over the next decade."

-https://qz.com/1434388/trumps-tax-cuts-arent-paying-for-themselves/

"The budget deficit has swollen under Trump’s hand to $782 billion, some $116 billion more than the year before. The wider gap can be attributed entirely to a shortfall in tax revenue; in particular, corporate tax receipts plunged $92 billion year-on-year.

...Thanks to a growing economy, the US spent less this year as a share of GDP despite a nominal increase in outlays of $129 billion. But as a result of the tax bill, revenue fell 0.7 percentage points of GDP, driving up the deficit. In absolute terms, the US collected $13 billion more in revenues this year than the previous one—but if the old tax policies still held, it would have collected another $200 billion this year..."

The last time 2 times economic indicators were this good the Government was running a SURPLUS, such as at the end of the Clinton administration. Revenue is supposed to go UP as employment and GDP rises.

Not to mention Trump is not responsible for this economy, yes his tax cuts raised economic output by a little. But over HALF of the savings to corporations have been used for STOCK BUY BACKS, and the other half largely stashed as cash, not to be spent.

He inherited this economy from Obama
, and is quickly using it as a shield to destroy our Democracy, the administrative state, and our ability to regulate both the economy and protect the environment.

Also, thanks to changes in the tax code involving deductions, Trumps tax cuts actually INCREASED taxes those earning less than $75,000 a year, as we saw, even though their paychecks raised by a meager few dollars a month they are now OWEING taxes when before they would have received a refund.


Edited by Holybullshit (04/08/19 11:34 AM)


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InvisibleHolybullshit
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Re: Do you support the Green New Deal? [Re: Holybullshit]
    #25922937 - 04/08/19 11:27 AM (4 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
No. I do not support raising taxes on most Americans. I support raising taxes on most corporations. My tax rate, right now, is 37%.




The best way we can increase the tax revenues collected from Corporations are changes to the tax code concerning overseas earnings and holdings.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/29/business/taxes-offshore-repatriation.html
Quote:

Jesse Drucker, Nov. 29, 2017:
Over the past few decades, some of the largest companies in the United States made a big bet: By stashing hundreds of billions of dollars of profits offshore, they could slash their taxes and bolster their profits.

It would take a generation to see if the strategy would fully pay off, because the law allowed companies only to defer the taxes on overseas earnings, not to permanently avoid them. Would they ever be able to bring the profits back to the United States without incurring huge tax bills?

Some 20 years after the tax-avoiding technique became widespread, it is poised to pay off in a big way. The Republican tax bills making their way through the House and Senate would allow companies to bring nearly $3 trillion in profits home, at greatly reduced tax rates.

In a tax-overhaul package that would provide the greatest benefits to wealthy individuals and corporations, the so-called repatriation provision stands out. It would give companies a permanent tax break of about half a trillion dollars, rewarding the likes of Google, Apple, Pfizer and General Electric. Corporate America claims that about $3 trillion in profits were generated in places like Bermuda, Grand Cayman and Luxembourg.

The tax breaks for bringing home such offshore profits “confirm the central tenet of tax planning that a tax deferred is a tax avoided,” said David Miller, a tax lawyer at Proskauer Rose. “For decades, U.S. multinationals have shifted profits abroad and deferred their taxes on them. If either of the tax bills pass, they will be rewarded for doing so.”

To be sure, the legislation erects some potential guardrails against future efforts to shift profits offshore. It would establish a minimum tax abroad on certain types of income — at least 10 percent for the first several years in the Senate version — thus raising the tax bills for many companies on their foreign profits. And regulators in Europe and elsewhere abroad have accelerated their efforts to crack down on such profit shifting out of their countries.

President Trump and congressional Republicans argue that it’s important to get companies to bring the money home because it would be used to create jobs — although that didn’t happen the last time lawmakers enacted a similar tax break. Mr. Trump predicted on Tuesday that trillions of dollars would be repatriated — money, he said, that companies currently are “just not able to bring back.”

Under current law, American companies pay taxes on their worldwide profits at a rate of 35 percent, the highest statutory rate in the world. But the law has a big caveat: Companies can indefinitely defer the taxes on profits earned abroad — as long as those profits stay overseas.

That gives companies a powerful incentive to push as much profit as possible into subsidiaries abroad. Microsoft, Merck, Facebook and other companies attribute large chunks of their profits to entities in low- or zero-tax offshore jurisdictions and therefore enjoy effective tax rates that are nowhere near 35 percent.

Apple has been especially adept at moving profits around in tax-advantageous ways. This month, The New York Times reported how the company, after Irish regulators jeopardized its offshore tax arrangement, deployed a new corporate structure on the island of Jersey. The company now has more than $128 billion offshore.

But companies can defer the American taxes only as long as their profits remain offshore. If they want to repatriate the cash back to the United States, they must pay taxes at the rate of 35 percent, minus whatever they already paid abroad.

A large loophole was opened in 1996 when the Clinton administration’s Treasury Department introduced a rule that allowed different subsidiaries of the same company to move money back and forth without incurring American taxes.

That removed one of the main deterrents to companies pushing profits into overseas tax havens — and opened the floodgates. Since then, the share of American companies’ foreign profits attributed to a handful of tax havens has more than doubled. Now, nearly two-thirds of all profits that American companies claim to earn overseas are generated in tax-friendly jurisdictions including Bermuda, Ireland and the Netherlands, according to data compiled by Gabriel Zucman, an economics professor at the University of California, Berkeley.

The problem for corporate America, though, is that it can’t easily use that overseas money for things like paying dividends or buying their own shares, techniques that publicly traded companies use to please their investors. Doing so would trigger hefty tax bills.

After intense lobbying by big companies, Congress in 2004 passed the American Jobs Creation Act, which provided a one-time tax break for companies that wanted to repatriate their offshore profits. Companies brought home $312 billion at a rate of just 5.25 percent. Although the break was intended to spur investment and hiring, a plethora of studies showed that companies responded by spending billions buying back their shares, lifting their stock prices, and didn’t expand their American work forces.

Pfizer, for example, brought home $37 billion at the reduced rates — and shed 10,000 workers. Hewlett-Packard repatriated more than $14 billion, while eliminating more than 14,000 jobs.

After that tax break, companies resumed pushing profits offshore — at an even brisker pace. Early in the Obama administration, Cisco Systems led a lobbying effort for yet another tax holiday, which went nowhere.

Now, companies have accumulated approximately $2.8 trillion in profits offshore, beyond the reach of American tax authorities and barely touched by other countries, according to the Zion Research Group, a research boutique focused on accounting and tax issues.

The proposals in the Republican tax package are different from the 2004 holiday. Under the current versions, all foreign earnings sitting offshore would be considered to be automatically repatriated, and taxes at a reduced rate would be paid over several years. The rates would vary, with earnings held in cash taxed at 10 percent in the Senate version. Other earnings would be taxed at half that rate. Companies would receive credit for some foreign taxes already paid.
[emphasis added]

Zion Research estimated that under the Senate proposal, companies in the Standard & Poor’s 500 would pay about $570 billion less than what they would if they brought the profits home under current law.

American companies would no longer owe full taxes on overseas profits. Instead, they would pay taxes at a minimum rate of at least 10 percent on some types of foreign profits — compared with a new, lower rate on domestic earnings of 20 percent.

Kristin J. Forbes, a professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology’s management school who served in the George W. Bush administration, said the repeated changes to the tax treatment of overseas earning were problematic.

“They do cause companies to change behavior and then game the system the way they have been doing,” she said. “Big picture: This isn’t how you’d like to do tax policy.”




Yet. Trump and the GOP have done the exact opposite of what should have been done, allowing all overseas accounts to be taxed at a rate of 5-10% and allowing them to deduct any foreign taxes already paid, often bringing the effective rate down to ZERO.

Not to mention, through clever accounting with the use of shell corporations and subsidiaries this is often money that was truly generated on American soil.


Edited by Holybullshit (04/08/19 11:38 AM)


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