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To MarkosTheGnostic - What is Islam?
    #25884903 -

Buddhism sought to enlighten us, Catholicism sought to control us and make profits, what is Islam?

Should it be feared?

Why are Islamists generally extremely defensive of their religion?


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Hostile humankind
Can't you see you're fucking blind?

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Re: To MarkosTheGnostic - What is Islam? [Re: beforethedawn] * 3
    #25884939 -

You realize that instead of sending up a Bat-Signal you can PM me? :lol:

All religions are extremely defensive. Historically, Roman Catholic crusaders attacked Muslims in their own countries, not vice versa. That should indicate why Muslims might appear to be more defensive today, one would expect that they have learned to be so from history. Is Islam (which means 'surrender,' i.e., to God) to be feared? Fundamentalists and extremists of any religion are to be mistrusted IMO. Is Islam scary to me as an American with a Jewish surname? No. Although purportedly a universal religion, the Qur'an, after all, is written in Arabic, and it is rather difficult to tease apart the various Middle Eastern cultures from the Islamic religion. There are, however, all kinds of Muslims just as there are all kinds of Christians, and jihadist bombers are no more or less delusional than hateful KKKlansmen who think that their's is a 'Christian' fraternal organization.

Extremists are quite mad and fundamentalists are quite stupid in every religion that generates these miscreants. Put the two together and you have Muslim jihadist bombers, but you also have Protestant 'Christian' KKK bombers of churches and children, Mel Gibson 'Conservative' anti-semitic Catholics, Ozark snake-handling churches, and literalist 'believers' who cannot discern midrash/myth/magick/metaphor from actual history, and for that reason cannot reconcile faith with science but choose to reject the former. Personally, I much prefer a Muslim Sufi over any literalist fundamentalist Christian, or any rabidly Zionist Jew because the latter two are extremists with 'beliefs' that do not lend themselves to love and tolerance of others.

So in effect, living in the USA, I am more concerned with American hate-mongers who are sufficiently deluded, stupid, and confused as to claim to be Christians, the center of which is a 1st century Judean Jewish peasant while simultaneously being virulently anti-semitic. White supremacists are tribalists who sometimes tend toward adopting symbols of tribal deities associated with northern European ethnic groups. So Germanic or Nordic religious myths often appeal to them rather than Jewish originated Christianity. Odin or Wotan, Thor and Loki, and the Valkyries who decide who will die in battle are a war-culture. Like fictional Klingons, it's all about dying an honorable death, which always means in warfare and killing for the sake of the tribe. Religious themes abound, and as for me, I'm just going to live my life out with religious symbols that embody inner and outer peace for all, hippie style.

:peace: & :heart:
MtG


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: To MarkosTheGnostic - What is Islam? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #25885135 -

I thought I'd make a public thread for spreading of knowledge, you seem to have a lot to say on topics of religion for sure.

Thanks for your input.

What makes so many believe in Islam when it takes so much from their lives to be an adherent?


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Hostile humankind
Can't you see you're fucking blind?

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Re: To MarkosTheGnostic - What is Islam? [Re: beforethedawn] * 1
    #25885208 -

Quote:
What makes so many believe in Islam when it takes so much from their lives to be an adherent?

From my experience living and traveling in quite a few Muslim-majority countries, I'd say most people don't realize what they give up in order to follow their religion, because it's what they're born into and they're not very familiar with other ways of living. And some people probably don't actually give up very much apart from a few hours on Fridays to be Muslim, because as with other religions a lot of people are Muslim in name only or have a superficial identity as a Muslim.

For converts and serious practitioners of the faith I would say that the benefit they derive comes from a number of things, including the five daily prayers which lend themselves to leading a structured and disciplined life; the sense of brotherhood with the ummah, the global Muslim community; the sense of awesome and possibly divine history contained in the Quran and the hadiths; and the promise of a paradisical world infinitely better than this world, which most would agree is unsatisfying and contains incredible suffering.

For real fringe extremists it gets more complicated. If you want to know about why people join ISIS, from my studies of the issue I'd say it's much of the above but also add to that the appeal of being a righteous, holy action hero who gets to kill evil people in for the most important cause imaginable and also have wives and potentially even slaves. For many disaffected men it's a vision, sold through effective propaganda and recruitment networks on the web and in communities, that is highly appealing.


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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: To MarkosTheGnostic - What is Islam? [Re: Lion] * 2
    #25885349 -

the more you play a game, the more important that game becomes.
eventually a player could have witnesses, possibly even paying admission just to see him act and behave by the rules.

games have their own vocabularies, heroes, songs, motifs and histories, that can energize society and culture.

maybe religions are like games - drawing the people together and binding them to an idea.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: To MarkosTheGnostic - What is Islam? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #25886141 -

I am opposed to Shariah law as I am opposed to Jewish law, specifically the 613 commandments, IF it is imposed on me. On the one hand, if adherence to rules that address every behavior in life makes one mindful of God, I understand that. Unfortunately, burying a woman (not the man) up to the head in sand and stoning her to death for adultery is as heinous as anything I can imagine. Moreover, modern technology has created behaviors (like what not to watch on TV because it is unholy) must be interpreted by 'experts,' so the original prohibitions become reduced to fractal-like micro-managements. I once tried to lend Will Parfitt's book The Elements of Qabalah to an Israeli Jewish woman. She had to ask her rabbi if she could read it and he said no. I lost respect for her because I am a free thinker. She 'believes' in this patriarchal power-trip. At least Jews do not stone violators of Talmudic law. My BFF violated his Catholic Church's and his parent's requests when he went to see a couple of James Bond films with me in the 1960s.

I understand some prohibitions, IF and only IF they are self-imposed. I do not care if one chooses not to smoke, drink, consort with prostitutes, use drugs, or listen to secular music. I am in agreement with some of these things myself. BUT, if someone forces those prohibitions on me, they are looking for rebellion.



But one has to understand that not everybody wants freedom. Erich Fromm wrote a classic book, Escape From Freedom. Those populations in countries where the leaders have long been brutal dictatorial strong-man types might actually not want the freedom that Americans possess. The puppet POTUS Trump wants to seriously restrict American freedoms as he admires and aspires to be a Hitleresque dictator whose very word becomes law and who does not have to abide by a constitution, due process of law, or the other equal components of the government. And the current regime seems to actually embody the dystopian mottos of George Orwell in 1984:



To strip personal freedoms from individuals is to create a population of sheep, robots, or slaves. All idioms work. In Christianity, 1 Corinthians 7:22 reads, "For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord's freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ's slave." Being constrained from self-destructive acts is one way of looking at this. Walking your dog on a leash will keep your dog from stupidly running into traffic and being killed, but hopefully you don't beat your dog with that leash if [s]he does something you don't like!. Being constrained by certain religious dictates works similarly, but when that body of laws also metes out punishments like stoning, beheading, behanding, blinding, etc., something is horribly wrong.

Freedom is not defined as doing whatever one wants whenever one wants to to whomever one wants. That is slavery to desires, many of which may be hurtful to others and therefore perverse according to the highest value which I identify as Compassion. I agree with the prohibition of adultery, for example, but I am free to follow that prohibition and do not want or need a law which kills the adulterer. I would never be in support of such a law, but obviously, of the 1 billion+ Muslims, there are those who would disagree with me about my freedom to choose. What becomes of one's freedom when the threat of death is present? The Orwellian premise arises that being enslaved to certain rules is what makes one free. That reminds me of the wrought iron sign over the front gate to Auschwitz, "Arbeit Macht Frei," work makes you free. Work made them die, death was freedom - freedom from utter misery.



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: To MarkosTheGnostic - What is Islam? [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 1
    #25887235 -

they make hash so not all bad


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: To MarkosTheGnostic - What is Islam? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25890854 -

about belief, and why humans ...

https://www.csicop.org/si/show/the_god_engine

The God Engine
James Alcock
Skeptical Inquirer Volume 42.5, September / October 2018

------------

https://www.csicop.org/si/show/belief_engine

The Belief Engine
Feature
James Alcock
Skeptical Inquirer Volume 19.3, May / June 1995

http://www.learningmethods.com/downloads/pdf/james.alcock--the.belief.engine.pdf

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Re: To MarkosTheGnostic - What is Islam? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #25890863 -

redgreenvines said:
they make hash so not all bad


True and nice quote.

Good and bad about everything.

I'm not sure Islam can be fixed, though. There are so many places it calls for killing,

And the restrictions are ... not so good.


--------------------


I didn't draw this.

"Hope your day is as wonderful, loving, and kind as you are."
:heart:

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Re: To MarkosTheGnostic - What is Islam? [Re: life is good]
    #25892070 -

also of interest:

"Complex societies gave birth to big gods, not the other way around
Big data analyses suggest that moralizing gods are rather the product than the drivers of social complexity"

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/03/190320141116.htm

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Complex+societies+precede+moralizing+gods+&t=hw&ia=web

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Re: To MarkosTheGnostic - What is Islam? [Re: laughingdog]
    #25892077 -

Religion as part of control system --- amusing

The Handbook of Human Ownership - A Manual for New Tax Farmers

Stefan Molyneux



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Re: To MarkosTheGnostic - What is Islam? [Re: laughingdog]
    #25892239 -

"when you meet the buddha in the middle of the road - Kill him"

this is not to be taken literally, but in Buddhism, the right approach to an inflated self importance is to get over it immediately, therefore, if you think you know what enlightenment is or that you are enlightened, just get past it as quickly as possible, i.e. kill that fake buddha mentality.

similarly in Islam the infidel within your self should be dispensed with as soon as you notice it.

the problem with both these religions is that the esoteric instruction is mixed inexpertly with the general dogma, and this leads to gross misinterpretation, and cascades into ridiculous discussions, commentary and fatwas.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: To MarkosTheGnostic - What is Islam? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25892566 -

Believe it or not that could have done some harm. . . People think that way and then they attack anyone who says they are enlightened and so forth, and endless stuff goes on.

As Shantideva wwrote about, making others happpy is a central aspect.. Indeed,

The wish for others' happiness is almost the entire core of Shantideva's teachings. --

Of course there is much else; he's talking about every point of life --
including moving quietly so as not to disturb others --

But the wish for others' hapiness and well-being --
This is almost the definition of Bodhicitta.

And faith -- being like children,
of course being wise as well,

both of these things have a feedback,
which is why the world can be such
levels of heavenly or its opposite.

"Peace, peace, supreme peace!", Sri Ramakrishna calls --
Giving the example of the freshness of a river,

Comparing the greatest peace with entering to the Ganga river.
Plunging into peace.

Of course this is practiced by meditation.



(Shantideva's teachings in both the Siska Samuccaya and the Bodhisattvacaryavatara)


--------------------


I didn't draw this.

"Hope your day is as wonderful, loving, and kind as you are."
:heart:

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Re: To MarkosTheGnostic - What is Islam? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25894543 -

redgreenvines said:
....

the problem with both these religions is that the esoteric instruction is mixed inexpertly with the general dogma, and this leads to gross misinterpretation, and cascades into ridiculous discussions, commentary and fatwas.


The problem with organized religions is, that they are organized

Even buddhism, which originally went to the extra effort of pointing out that "attachment to views", even it's own, was a serious error!!,... eventually split into versions that have little in common with one another, & yet have many adherents who take their religion ( or their version of it) as being correct.

"The Schools of Buddhism .... often due to the sheer number (perhaps thousands) of different sects, subsects, movements, etc. that have made up or currently make up the whole of Buddhist traditions."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schools_of_Buddhism

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