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OfflineGorlax
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ATF * 1
    #25870911 - 03/13/19 02:29 AM (12 days, 53 minutes ago)

It’s funny how hated the ATF is. I follow a few gun pages on instagram and whenever something with the ATF happens they go off about how the ATF is fucked up and how they abuse the constitution. They do have a terrible track record and if you read the official instagram of the ATF  98% of the comments mention Waco or Ruby Ridge. I do think the ATF is a far reaching government agency. Not sure why they need to exist as we have the FBI ?

The comments are seriously hilarious read them.

Also to own a full auto machine gun or become a gun smith you need an ATF tax stamp and allow them access to your life. Essentially they can bust into your house without a search warrant at any time. Kind of crazy they allow it as long as you pay their special tax.

You think the ATF was justified at Waco and Ruby Ridge?



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Offlinetwighead
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Re: ATF [Re: Gorlax]
    #25870959 - 03/13/19 03:15 AM (12 days, 7 minutes ago)

Well to be fair - if you run a restaurant, you have to allow a health inspector in at any time... OSHA inspectors handle inspections of factories and other businesses which need to be operated to a degree of properness and safety - or yeah, people get hurt. It's important that they're independent agencies or employers will happily cut corners.

Likewise, if your business is in creating/importing/exporting firearms, it makes sense that you'd be letting in a regulatory agency to check the legality/safety of the practice... Otherwise, what's to stop a gun manufacturer from seriously abusing their position (safety is also a concern for a manufacturer..) - which does have more intense repercussion than a corrupt shoe manufacturing company.


And if someone is seriously slangin' a bunch of unregistered/illegal weapons - fuck them, there are people who shouldn't have guns - sorry republicans :rolleyes:

On the other hand, the ATF probably just seizes them and sells them to a cartel or some shit - they aren't angels either by any means, but the existence of the agency in some form - does have solid reasoning.


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Offlinetwighead
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Re: ATF [Re: twighead] * 1
    #25870963 - 03/13/19 03:27 AM (11 days, 23 hours ago)

As far as Ruby Ridge - I think they should've been more patient and taken out Weaver and been way more careful about his wife and kids... No mercy for the Aryan Nations pieces of shit up there in Idaho.

Waco was far worse, as there wasn't near the level of investigation that took place with Weaver + Weaver attacked first; but similarly, if you're attempting to resist arrest against a battalion of FBI/ATF agents with your own firearms - the fuck do you expect :lol:

Not that I find the FBI's actions commendable - but you have to be serious about who you're dealing with... they are not gentle - you should not expect them to be if you have guns and you're resisting arrest for almost 2 months.

It's ultimately the men in Waco who decided to resists fault -  that casualties were incurred. Not because I think the FBI should be able to do or get away with these things, but because we all know they'll do it anyway - it's like if you had the SS at your door in the Reich - lol. Everyone knows they're fucking ruthless, and you should act as if they're going to kill you if you put up armed resistance because they probably will.


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Offlineviraldrome
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Re: ATF [Re: Gorlax] * 1
    #25871116 - 03/13/19 06:40 AM (11 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

Gorlax said:


Also to own a full auto machine gun or become a gun smith you need an ATF tax stamp and allow them access to your life. Essentially they can bust into your house without a search warrant at any time. Kind of crazy they allow it as long as you pay their special tax.






They should be able to access all your medical files and check to see if you are mental too. And they should speak to your employer and your ex wife, neighbors too. And if you don't like it dont get a machine gun. Anyone attempting to obtain one should go on a list with a few agencies. The government moniter jihad chat, they should be watching you people. I don't want to see another Las Vegas. Despite the gun nut rhetoric all those public shooters /white terrorists always get their death machines from legal sources, its never the black market.


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OfflineMaverick
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Re: ATF [Re: viraldrome]
    #25871121 - 03/13/19 06:44 AM (11 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

viraldrome said:
Quote:

Gorlax said:


Also to own a full auto machine gun or become a gun smith you need an ATF tax stamp and allow them access to your life. Essentially they can bust into your house without a search warrant at any time. Kind of crazy they allow it as long as you pay their special tax.






The government moniter jihad chat, they should be watching you people. I don't want to see another Las Vegas. Despite the gun nut rhetoric all those public shooters /white terrorists always get their death machines from legal sources, its never the black market.





This is ironic because it's so true- you ask a right-wing person about monitoring muslim communities and they'll be all for it- you bring up gun control and they'll try to mob lynch you in the street.


Edited by Maverick (03/13/19 06:45 AM)


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Invisiblelavod
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Re: ATF [Re: Maverick]
    #25871290 - 03/13/19 10:19 AM (11 days, 17 hours ago)

Fuck 'em.  In 2004, the ATF determined that a 14" shoestring was a machine gun.  It took them 3 years to reverse that determination.  https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2010/01/25/shoestring-machine-gun/


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Offlineichugwindex
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Re: ATF [Re: lavod]
    #25871385 - 03/13/19 11:41 AM (11 days, 15 hours ago)

Alascan Thunder Fuck? I like that one.


--------------------
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They'll be like..."yo, yo, why, why your shit sound so different?
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why it sound so different?" like its bad thing
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OfflinePupenhause
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Re: ATF [Re: ichugwindex]
    #25871402 - 03/13/19 11:53 AM (11 days, 15 hours ago)

They determine minuscule details on guns that makes a law abiding gun owner a felon unless their pay a tax.  My ar9 is a pistol.  Just last year if i had shouldered the "arm brace" that looks AND FUNCTIONS as a stock, I'd have been a felon because I didn't pay $200 to get SBR stamp.  I can't put a vertical grip on it without a $200 tax stamp.  Can't have an actual defined stock on it without paying a $200 tax stamp.  I can't own a supressor which doesn't actually silence a gun(with exception of a .22 rifle) without paying a $200 tax stamp and going thru a trust. 

They are nothing more than a tax collector and they have somehow convinced themselves and liberals that their gun laws make everyone safe.  Their NFA and AOW are fucking worthless.  They are fucking worthless.


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OfflineGorlax
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Re: ATF [Re: Pupenhause]
    #25871561 - 03/13/19 01:20 PM (11 days, 14 hours ago)

Ruby Ridge the guy was told his barrel was too short and he had to pay a 200$ tax. He said it wasn’t and they pressed charges. They then said if he lost they would take his land and his family would become homeless. That is pretty crazy for a 200$ tax.  They were authorized to kill on sight. That’s insane. They killed their dog the kid came out and killed the kid so yeah they had a stand off as most people would.

Waco they “believed” they were converting guns to full auto. Most reports say they were stockpiling weapons which isn’t illegal. I know a lot of people with probably the same or equivalent amount of guns. They authorized the use of military weapons on civilians. Through 400 flammable tear gas canisters into a wooden structure and burned nearly 80 people alive 25 of which were children. That is insane for simply having suspicion. They even lied about the tear gas until they were caught.

it truly is a tax collection gang. If someone wants to use their full auto guns for harm they just have to pay the tax it isn’t preventing anything.


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OfflineJenny Baker
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Re: ATF [Re: Gorlax]
    #25871565 - 03/13/19 01:22 PM (11 days, 14 hours ago)

how do crazy people acquire guns?  it's like magic like u can't just go into big 5 and buy a gun, i woudn't be allowed to own a gun :smirk:


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OfflineGorlax
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Re: ATF [Re: Jenny Baker]
    #25871614 - 03/13/19 01:57 PM (11 days, 13 hours ago)

I live in a really lax gun state and they do a pretty good job at vetting people unless you do a private sale then all you need is a government ID but if that was the case and you knew you were acquiring a gun when you know you can’t have one you are then the one breaking the law.

I recently purchased an AR15 with a “short barrel” it looks almost identical to all other AR15’s but because the barrel is literally a few inches shorter it is called a pistol. It is stupid as fuck. It has a “thordsen cheek rest” which is almost  a stock but it is illegal to shoulder it unless I pay a tax. My other AR15 is a lot nicer with a 300$ hair trigger and I can legally shoulder that. I was told by a FFL dealer i met at the range you could press it against your cheek to legally “stabilize” it. Essentially it means nothing if you can just use your cheek and not your shoulder.

I purchased the AR15 pistol from a friend for dirt cheap because it wouldn’t cycle right and found out it was simply missinf a pin in the gas chamber a fucking 1$ fix and doubles my money with it. I have no actual interest in owning an AR15 pistol but I do. I guess they are used primarily in vehicles so you don’t have to deal with a lengthy as barrel smacking into everything. The more u know.


Edited by Gorlax (03/13/19 02:18 PM)


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OfflinePupenhause
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Re: ATF [Re: Gorlax]
    #25871634 - 03/13/19 02:05 PM (11 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

Gorlax said:
I live in a really lax gun state and they do a pretty good job at vetting people unless you do a private sale then all you need is a government ID but if that was the case and you knew you were acquiring a gun when you know you can’t have one you are then the one breaking the law.

I recently purchased an AR15 with a “short barrel” it looks almost identical to all other AR15’s but because the barrel is literally a few inches shorter it is called a pistol. It is stupid as fuck. It has a stock but it is illegal to shoulder it unless I pay a tax. My other AR15 is a lot nicer with a 300$ hair trigger and I can legally shoulder that. I was told by a FFL dealer i met at the range you could press it against your cheek to legally “stabilize” it. Essentially it means nothing if you can just use your cheek and not your shoulder.

I purchased the AR15 pistol from a friend for dirt cheap because it wouldn’t cycle right and found out it was simply missinf a pin in the gas chamber a fucking 1$ fix and doubles my money with it. I have no actual interest in owning an AR15 pistol but I do. I guess they are used primarily in vehicles so you don’t have to deal with a lengthy as barrel smacking into everything. The more u know.




If it has a stock and you didn't get the tax stamp, you're in possession of an sbr and now a felon.  If its a brace, it is still a pistol, but they changed the law and you can now shoulder it.  My ar9 has a 4" barrel which is what I keep in my truck, loaded and ready.  But here's the kicker, if i pay the tax and put an actual stock on it, I can't have it loaded in my truck because its now a rifle.  Literally their definition of a stock defines what kind of gun you have.


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OfflineGorlax
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Re: ATF [Re: Pupenhause]
    #25871654 - 03/13/19 02:16 PM (11 days, 13 hours ago)

It isn’t an an actual stock it’s a Thordsen cheek rest which is almost like a stock just didn’t think anyone would know what that was. The stupidity of it is extremely dumb. ATF is ok with them.


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OfflinePupenhause
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Re: ATF [Re: Gorlax] * 1
    #25871668 - 03/13/19 02:27 PM (11 days, 12 hours ago)

I know what it is.  The ATF over reaches with this shit.  It functions as a stock, but it's not a stock because they say it isn't.


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OfflineGorlax
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Re: ATF [Re: Pupenhause]
    #25871680 - 03/13/19 02:33 PM (11 days, 12 hours ago)

Right the biggest problem is what you said. An ordinary marksmen can be shooting and based on how they “hold” the gun can be instantly a felon. That is bullshit. Also the Vegas shooter used bump stocks which are 100% legal and do not require a tax stamp so the ATF literally picks and chooses what it wants to enforce. Bump stocks are stupid as fuck and just a waste of ammo. I laugh when people show up and unload all their ammo in 5 min with them. Absolutely no fun in that unless you wanna look cool.


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Offlineichugwindex
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Re: ATF [Re: Gorlax]
    #25871796 - 03/13/19 03:37 PM (11 days, 11 hours ago)

Goddamn Brady bill. I still think I should legally be able to have landmines in my yard and belt fed guns


--------------------
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They'll be like..."yo, yo, why, why your shit sound so different?
Know'm saying why why your shit like.. on another level?
why it sound so different?" like its bad thing
And i be like why not? nigga, haha~ Kid Cudi


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OfflineGorlax
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Re: ATF [Re: ichugwindex]
    #25871833 - 03/13/19 04:01 PM (11 days, 11 hours ago)

You can just pay a tax derrr :dawerp:


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Offlinetwighead
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Re: ATF [Re: ichugwindex]
    #25871836 - 03/13/19 04:02 PM (11 days, 11 hours ago)

Yeah, but weaver was a straight up card carrying nazi... so bless the ATF for atleast trying to take him down :lol:

Fucking up the Aryan nations over 1990-2008 was one of the best things the local and fed govt have done in North Idaho... they may be unrepentant rednecks, but even they banded together to rid us of Nazi fucks. I grew up seeing their bitch asses walking into restaurants with their swastika armbands, spitting on the waitresses, trying to  intimidate people...

The tragedy at Ruby Ridge was that weavers family paid for him being a fuckhead nazi. And now hes a millionaire because of it.


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OfflineTexXx
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Re: ATF [Re: Gorlax]
    #25871852 - 03/13/19 04:09 PM (11 days, 11 hours ago)

which Waco incdent?

The one where the government burned woman and children alive ?

or

The time they set up the bikers at twin peaks opening fire on them from a Mexican restaurant rooftop killing around 20.

They had snipers set up hours before the "fight" broke out.

& that "fight" that broke out that allowed the ATF, FBI, & Waco to open fire on anyone on the Twin Peaks property arrested & charged 180 people. Anyways the official report changed so many fucking times it is disgusting.

Read more @ agingrebel.com


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Life.


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InvisibleRoboShaman
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Re: ATF [Re: Gorlax]
    #25871930 - 03/13/19 04:55 PM (11 days, 10 hours ago)

I'm a big "Waco person" I guess, seen most of the documentaries and the mini-series. If you've listened to Boards of Canada, you're probably familiar with David Koresh and the Branch Davidians (religious doomsday cult).

It's an interesting event in American history. They executed their warrant / raid on these people with a small army of federal agents, eventually burning the place to the ground. It was an attack by the government against US citizens to flex their authority.


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OfflineTexXx
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Re: ATF [Re: RoboShaman]
    #25871945 - 03/13/19 05:09 PM (11 days, 10 hours ago)

Yes.

They had a special grenade that was designed to ignite a building.

They knew the building had over 100 woman and children in it.

Their is documented radio communication by the police where they are strategically placing a special grenade in the building to set it on fire knowing they were about to kill everyone inside, why?

Because the cocky bastards tried ambushing the compound hidden in cattle trailers and got fuckint shot at and a few agents died.

So what did these agents do?

Burn the mother fuckers to the ground. Men, Woman, & Children. Alive. BURN. death


This didn't happen in Iraq.

This was in my home state close to my home town.

I personally drove through Waco and got to witness the mind blowing nation wide cover up that took place during the Twin Peaks Massacre than only happened a few years ago.


But it's cool tho right? The agents only killed bikers right, so who the fuck cares? Nobody here really bikes ?

I say this because I fucking posted about this shit when it happened on here and noby seamed to give a shit about it while it happening then on here.


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Life.


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OfflinePupenhause
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Re: ATF [Re: Gorlax] * 1
    #25871969 - 03/13/19 05:19 PM (11 days, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

Gorlax said:
Right the biggest problem is what you said. An ordinary marksmen can be shooting and based on how they “hold” the gun can be instantly a felon. That is bullshit. Also the Vegas shooter used bump stocks which are 100% legal and do not require a tax stamp so the ATF literally picks and chooses what it wants to enforce. Bump stocks are stupid as fuck and just a waste of ammo. I laugh when people show up and unload all their ammo in 5 min with them. Absolutely no fun in that unless you wanna look cool.




Well they go after bump stocks, which take some getting used to, and dont touch binary triggers, which when activated it fires on the pull and release.  My friend jumped thru some hoops tho and got himself a full auto suppressed mac11 with a .22 and 5.56 upper...which I'm beyond excited to play with, especially because he's putting me in the trust since he leaves the country for extended periods of time.


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OfflinePupenhause
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Re: ATF [Re: ichugwindex] * 1
    #25871972 - 03/13/19 05:19 PM (11 days, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

ichugwindex said:
Goddamn Brady bill. I still think I should legally be able to have landmines in my yard and belt fed guns





I know a few people with belt fed guns...where are they illegal?


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InvisibleRoboShaman
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Re: ATF [Re: TexXx]
    #25872046 - 03/13/19 05:57 PM (11 days, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

TexXx said:
This was in my home state close to my home town.

I personally drove through Waco and got to witness the mind blowing nation wide cover up that took place during the Twin Peaks Massacre than only happened a few years ago.


But it's cool tho right? The agents only killed bikers right, so who the fuck cares? Nobody here really bikes ?

I say this because I fucking posted about this shit when it happened on here and noby seamed to give a shit about it while it happening then on here.




Biker gang shootout? I find it wild there's actual biker gangs around, that will draw weapons and light up a restaurant like that. Over what I don't remember...


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OfflinekoodsM
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Re: ATF [Re: RoboShaman]
    #25872276 - 03/13/19 07:51 PM (11 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

Through 400 flammable tear gas canisters into a wooden structure and burned nearly 80 people alive 25 of which were children




Bulkshit. Koresh padlocked doors, then set multiple fires inside the compound. They were an apocalyptic cult, and he took the opportunity to manifest it.


--------------------
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OfflineGorlax
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Re: ATF [Re: koods]
    #25872347 - 03/13/19 08:26 PM (11 days, 6 hours ago)

So says the government who lied about using anything flammable. Read the transcripts they admitted to throwing 400 tear gas cans into it.


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Offlineviraldrome
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Re: ATF [Re: Maverick] * 1
    #25875080 - 03/15/19 03:34 AM (9 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

Maverick said:
Quote:

viraldrome said:
Quote:

Gorlax said:


Also to own a full auto machine gun or become a gun smith you need an ATF tax stamp and allow them access to your life. Essentially they can bust into your house without a search warrant at any time. Kind of crazy they allow it as long as you pay their special tax.






The government moniter jihad chat, they should be watching you people. I don't want to see another Las Vegas. Despite the gun nut rhetoric all those public shooters /white terrorists always get their death machines from legal sources, its never the black market.





This is ironic because it's so true- you ask a right-wing person about monitoring muslim communities and they'll be all for it- you bring up gun control and they'll try to mob lynch you in the street.





How long was that? 24 hours? Another white terrorist attack, this time in New Zealand. I just watched the video and he was firing an insane number of shots per minute. No person needs a gun like that


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OfflineTexXx
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Re: ATF [Re: koods] * 1
    #25875294 - 03/15/19 09:35 AM (9 days, 17 hours ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Through 400 flammable tear gas canisters into a wooden structure and burned nearly 80 people alive 25 of which were children




Bulkshit. Koresh padlocked doors, then set multiple fires inside the compound. They were an apocalyptic cult, and he took the opportunity to manifest it.





Agents have radio communication that was presented to the courts during the multiple federal investigation.

In the radio communication you can hear the ATF & FBI talking about their strategic plans placing the incandescent grenades in the building knowing full well they were about to burn them alive.

So if you lock your front door trying to protect yourself from a rogue government agents so they set your house on fire along with 100 woman and children it's your fault for locking your door on private personal property.

I'm thinking your shit mods post are on purpose to reduce the quality of post of this site causing it to be less popular. Now that I can tell how full of shit you are on something I have spent researching for years.


Why don't you go kill some Indians like its 1997?

Up until 97 yall had some concentration camps for native Americans.

Fucking Canadians. Yall think yall are so god damn smart.


Koresh was sick. He kept asking the govt for more time to write his version of the apocalypse ending of the bible of revelations.

The feds got tired of waiting and set them on fire.


The feds tried to spin in so bad but they got caught lying about it.

So please don't spread the lies after so many years. The evidence was finally presented and proved Koresh and his followers did not set the fires the govnet did and there is fucking radio communication to prove it that they tried to cover up.

Fuck you koods.


Edited by TexXx (03/15/19 09:42 AM)


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: ATF [Re: koods]
    #25876020 - 03/15/19 04:20 PM (9 days, 11 hours ago)

There was a video of it saying that the fbi and atf people were squirting flammable liquid with that tank and then they (feds,fbi,atf) set it on fire. You think some Texas motherfuckers are going to let some dweeby religious guy do a standoff with them and not get fucked up? You don't know Texas koodsie baby. They will fuck you up even if they are going to die.


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OfflinekoodsM
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Re: ATF [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #25876330 - 03/15/19 06:31 PM (9 days, 8 hours ago)

Bullshit


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Re: ATF [Re: koods]
    #25876637 - 03/15/19 08:52 PM (9 days, 6 hours ago)

You ever thrown a crouton at a man from Galveston? Didn't think so


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Re: ATF [Re: twighead]
    #25876651 - 03/15/19 09:05 PM (9 days, 6 hours ago)

I though this was going to be about the cannabis strain

Alaskan thunder fuck


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Re: ATF [Re: watermelon mon]
    #25876652 - 03/15/19 09:05 PM (9 days, 6 hours ago)

loVe all cannabis


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Edited by watermelon mon (03/15/19 09:07 PM)


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Re: ATF [Re: twighead]
    #25876922 - 03/15/19 11:50 PM (9 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

twighead said:
Yeah, but weaver was a straight up card carrying nazi... so bless the ATF for atleast trying to take him down :lol:

Fucking up the Aryan nations over 1990-2008 was one of the best things the local and fed govt have done in North Idaho... they may be unrepentant rednecks, but even they banded together to rid us of Nazi fucks. I grew up seeing their bitch asses walking into restaurants with their swastika armbands, spitting on the waitresses, trying to  intimidate people...

The tragedy at Ruby Ridge was that weavers family paid for him being a fuckhead nazi. And now hes a millionaire because of it.



People like you make me want to support Nazi's officially. I understand where they are coming from, but people like you, I don't.
I assume its all the anti Nazi propaganda we are forced to learn at school every single year until high school, as though Jews were helpless and innocent and nationalism is evil


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Re: ATF [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #25877114 - 03/16/19 02:51 AM (9 days, 31 minutes ago)

Shall not be infringed...


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Re: ATF [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 1
    #25877161 - 03/16/19 03:31 AM (8 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Quote:

twighead said:
Yeah, but weaver was a straight up card carrying nazi... so bless the ATF for atleast trying to take him down :lol:

Fucking up the Aryan nations over 1990-2008 was one of the best things the local and fed govt have done in North Idaho... they may be unrepentant rednecks, but even they banded together to rid us of Nazi fucks. I grew up seeing their bitch asses walking into restaurants with their swastika armbands, spitting on the waitresses, trying to  intimidate people...

The tragedy at Ruby Ridge was that weavers family paid for him being a fuckhead nazi. And now hes a millionaire because of it.



People like you make me want to support Nazi's officially. I understand where they are coming from, but people like you, I don't.
I assume its all the anti Nazi propaganda we are forced to learn at school every single year until high school, as though Jews were helpless and innocent and nationalism is evil




Haha, you don't understand a thing.

Where I came from (about 50 miles from Ruby Ridge) Nazi's - in the first national officially designated domestic terrorist group in US history, were in the hundreds (in a town of about 3,000). Does the name Aryan Nations mean nothing to you? :lol: Their headquarters were about 7 minutes drive down the road. They straight up murdered community members, stabbed them, harassed, intimidated, and they were buddy-buddy with the corrupt redneck cops - it took 40 fucking years before the community had enough support to get rid of them.

Their kids rode my bus, and were my neighbors... they were all violent pieces of shit too and would gang up 4v1 or 3v1 on black kids, Jewish kids, asians, people who looked at them funny, you name it :lol: it was like a 20% chance when I got off the bus (we lived in the middle of no where) that either my other neighbor would have to end up fighting 3 of them at once, or I would. (They were triplets all 3 years older than me) Fortunately, their violent tendencies outweighed their actual fighting prowess .... Being married to a shithead violent nazi, and having 3 nazi kids must be great - as their mom committed suicide in 08'

... My other neighbor had a 25 foot Confederate flag in his garage, was an ex-LA cop who bragged about how many black people he'd killed, and held me at gunpoint with a .357 in my own backyard, because I had a little kids bow and arrow (when I was like 11) :lol:

probably got in a good 15-20 more fights w/ nazi kids in school for being known to have Jewish parents... the most amusing was the 1 black kid in school who played all  buddy buddy with them, and tried to be the best nazi kid - while they all simultaneously disrespected the fuck out of him :lol:

Yeah to further go on about how much pieces of shit these guys are; their Propaganda Minister - yes they called him that - August Kries, was not only a convicted child molester, but tried to make an alliance with Al-Queda to fight the US govt :rofl: He went on to become the new leader after Butler died.

They were eventually removed from their compound in Hayden due to not being able to pay a 6.3 million$ settlement - which occurred when a woman and her son's car backfired while driving by - The guards shot up their car, causing them to crash - then dragged the woman and child out and beat the fuck out of them with their guns.

It was a great day, in around 2006 when some of the kids got caught plastering a flyer all over our high school, that read

"Happy Easter to all you niggers and spics from your friends at the Aryan Nations!" :lolsy: 5 of them got expelled

But yeah, please tell me how you "Understand them"

I'm sure you grew up seeing these guys drive by your street every couple week (how fucking creepy is that kid :lol:)
and yeah, while a lot of them look like goons - best believe they're all carrying guns, and don't have much to lose in using them :lol:



:rofl::puke:

Is this you?

https://www.facebook.com/biome.michael


So yeah - are you saying that you support a group that wanted to import Al-Queda into the US and use them as allies to wage war on the country through essentially random bombings/shootings? :rofl: Or are you just totally ignorant of who you 'understand' - people don't join 'Aryan Nations' cause they're some old semi-racist pappy - they join it because they want to violently overthrow the government, commit genocide/enslave non whites, replace it with a fascist dictatorship - and their means are through mass public bombings, psyops/propaganda, intimidation and killings.

So no. I don't feel bad for Weaver.


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Edited by twighead (03/16/19 03:45 AM)


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Re: ATF [Re: Desolus]
    #25878050 - 03/16/19 04:09 PM (8 days, 11 hours ago)

I'm not defending illegal actions or violence, and Im not making straw men out of individuals. From the John Ronson doc I watched, the cops were completely out of line. Whole family dead over nothing.


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Re: ATF [Re: Desolus]
    #25878071 - 03/16/19 04:19 PM (8 days, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

Desolus said:
Shall not be infringed...



Well regulated...


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Re: ATF [Re: koods]
    #25878842 - 03/16/19 10:35 PM (8 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Desolus said:
Shall not be infringed...



Well regulated...




Quote:

“A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.” [Amendment II, Constitution of the United States, as ratified by the several States]

The Constitution as a whole, including the amendments, must be viewed through the lens of the time to be understood. This is not as easy as it might sound, because even if you know the right words, you have to understand the context of the time. The Second Amendment is a real beast, because it has been interpreted by the courts, even the Supreme Court, for the most egregious of political reasons, to distort the meaning. I am not a Supreme Court Justice, nor even an attorney, and it is not my intent to refute Cruikshank, but to offer a fresh historical perspective on the meaning of the Second Amendment

The Militia - What “They” Said….

James Madison: “The ultimate authority … resides in the people alone. … The advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation … forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition.” Federalist 46
James Madison: “A well regulated militia, composed of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country.” 1st Annals of Congress, at 434, June 8th 1789
Rep. Tenche Coxe of Pennsylvania: “ The militia of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms, when compared with any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible. Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American ... the unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.” – Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.
Patrick Henry: “Are we at last brought to such a humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in our possession and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?” 3 Elliot Debates 168-169.
Patrick Henry: “The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun.” 3 Elliot, Debates at 386.
Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts: “Whenever governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins.” (spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at 750, August 17, 1789)
Thomas Jefferson: “And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms… The tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”, letter to William S. Smith, 1787, in S. Padover (Ed.), Jefferson, On Democracy
Thomas Jefferson: “No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.”, Proposal for a Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334 (C.J. Boyd, Ed. 1950)
George Mason: “I ask you sir, who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people.” (Elliott, Debates, 425-426)
Richard Henry Lee: “To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them…” Richard Henry (LIGHT HORSE HARRY) Lee, writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic (1787-1788)
Thomas Paine: “The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms like laws discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside… Horrid mischief would ensue were one half the world deprived of the use of them…” I Writings of Thomas Paine at 56 (1894)
Justice Joseph Story: “The militia is the natural defence of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections and domestic usurpations of power by rulers. It is against sound policy for a free people to keep up large military establishments and standing armies in time of peace both from the enormous expenses with which they are attended and the facile means which they afford to ambitious and unprincipled rulers to subvert the government or trample upon the rights of the people. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered as the palladium of the liberties of a republic since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers and will generally even if these are successful the first instance enable the people to resist and triumph over them…” Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States. 3 vols. Boston, 1833.
The point many miss (and has not yet been addressed in any court) is that the Second Amendment protects the right of the people to form militias. Just as the right of the people to keep and bear arms is an extension of the right to life, the people’s right to defend life, the right to form militias is an extension of the right to liberty, the people’s right to defend liberty.

When Madison proposed the Second Amendment, he submitted the text of the Massachusetts proposal, unchanged…

“The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.” [Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, Charles Hale, (1856), p. 86]

As you can see, the intent of this proposal was, clearly, to guarantee the rights of citizens to own and carry arms. They recognized this as essential because, a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country. This was recognizing the role of militias in liberating Massachusetts from the British.

Understand, it was not “The Kings Militia” who rebelled against King George, it was the armed citizens of the colonies who formed ad hoc militias (such as The Sons of Liberty) to oppose what they perceived as tyrannical government, facing the troops of the King. With the exception of Boston, Massachusetts was essentially liberated before the Revolution began. In many communities around Massachusetts, militias had already repelled British soldiers who came to confiscate their powder, with the threat of arms, before the Battle of Concord.

These militias were not controlled by the Colonial Government in any way. Originally, many were formed in communities throughout the colonies, especially in New England, primarily for community protection and policing (analogous to today’s Neighborhood Watch), who joined with militias like The Sons of Liberty. Even after the Continental Army was formed, the militias were not “controlled” by the Army, but often coordinated with it. The Founders were guaranteeing, not just the right to own and carry firearms, but the right of the people to form militias.

Well Regulated?

The phrase "well-regulated" was in common use long before 1789, and remained so for a century thereafter. It referred to the property of something being in proper working order. Something that was well-regulated was calibrated correctly, functioning as expected. Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it.[1]

So, if something is “well regulated”, it is “regular” (a well regulated clock; regular as clockwork).

In the 18th century, a “regular” army meant an army that had standard military equipment. So a “well regulated” army was simply one that was “well equipped” and organized. It does not refer to a professional army. The 17th century folks used the term “standing army” or “regulars” to describe a professional army. Therefore, “a well regulated militia” only means a well equipped militia that was organized and maintained internal discipline. It does not imply the modern meaning of “regulated,” which means controlled or administered by some superior entity. [2](emphasis added)

The following are taken from the Oxford English Dictionary, and bracket in time the writing of the 2nd amendment:

1709: "If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulated Appetites and worthy Inclinations."

1714: "The practice of all well-regulated courts of justice in the world."

1812: "The equation of time ... is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial."

1848: "A remissness for which I am sure every well-regulated person will blame the Mayor."

1862: "It appeared to her well-regulated mind, like a clandestine proceeding."

1894: "The newspaper, a never wanting adjunct to every well-regulated American embryo city."

Finally, in the words of Alexander Hamilton, from The Federalist Papers, #29,

The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, nor a week nor even a month, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry and of the other classes of the citizens to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people and a serious public inconvenience and loss.

From this quote we can deduce two things:

If the Founders meant for government to control the militia, they would have used the verb “to discipline”, as in “a well disciplined militia” (an objective Hamilton described as “futile” and “injurious”)
As Hamilton observes, well regulated meant the people were responsible for training themselves to arms, as well as supplying and equipping themselves. Though Hamilton thought this onerous, by demanding the Second Amendment, the States devolved this responsibility to the People.
Arms - weapons considered collectively

There is a lot of misunderstanding of this term, even among the gun community. If you just read the 2nd Amendment by itself, it is easily (and often) misinterpreted. If you study the the supporting documents and the ratification debates, it becomes much clearer. Nonetheless, the keys are in the text of the amendment itself. A couple of definitions first to promote understanding….

implements of war, munition, weaponry, weapons system

ammo, ammunition - projectiles to be fired from a gun

armament - weaponry used by military or naval force

bomb - an explosive device fused to explode under specific conditions

Usage - A couple of famous quotes…

Niccolò Machiavelli:The main foundations of every state, new states as well as ancient or composite ones, are good laws and good arms . You cannot have good laws without good arms, and where there are good arms, good laws inevitably follow.
Adolf Hitler:The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so.
Actually, the modern definition still applies, as the Founders were well aware that military science was rapidly evolving, particularly in the field of arms. They specified arms to leave interpretation as broad as possible, but there are caveats. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American… [emp. added][Tenche Coxe]

Mr. Coxe was a Congressman from Pennsylvania. Clearly their intent was that citizens be armed with military grade weapons.

It seems pretty clear cut, but in analysis, there are inherent limitations, on both government, and the People. The prefatory clause, “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state”, is a justification clause, and defines a limit on what type of arms. It does not say, “Because the People need to hunt for food, and slaughter live stock” or “As the People must be secure in their person and home”. Though these are good and sensible reasons, and while they were certainly considerations…. It specifies the militia as defined above, so clearly all arms, up to and including military grade weapons.

The operative clause: the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Again, note the wording - keep AND bear arms. These two terms are inextricably linked. It inherently limits the arms you may keep, to the arms you can bear. In other words, such arms as an infantryman or “soldier” carries; at the time, a musket or rifle (with bayonet), with sword, and or pistol. Today, common, infantry type weapons include (but are not limited to) pistols, semi-automatic rifles, burst fire rifles, and fully automatic rifles of a caliber used by the individual infantryman.

This specifically excludes crew served weapons such as heavy machine guns, mortars, artillery, tanks, anti-aircraft guns, missiles (other than man-portable), fighter jets, etc. because a single militiaman cannot bear them by himself. Just as the Federal government can commission privately owned ships, by a Letter of Marque and Reprisal, as ships of war (privateers), the governors of the States can commission officers to establish, and equip a militia unit, with the crew served arms needed to wage war.

What to Conclude?

Having properly defined “militia” as used in the vernacular of the Founders, and establishing the meaning of the phrase “well regulated” as it was used at the time the Second Amendment was written, it seems the “well regulated militia” was meant to be “the whole people”, all citizens, who, at need, could work together, and as effectively as a professional army, with the armament they provide themselves. In order to do that the arms and equipment in their possession, part of their “regulation”, would be arms and equipment equal to that of any army they may face. None of this seems to support the interpretation that the Second Amendment applies only to the National Guard, or a state sponsored, organized militia.

As to what constitutes arms… This analysis must conclude that the government shall not infringe (in any way limit) the right of the citizen to own any weapon they can use effectively by themselves, as individuals, or carry them, as is fit. While the prefatory clause is a justification clause, it is not the only justification found in the supporting documents, but one of several. It was seen as the most important, and justified the broadest possible latitude in the types of arms the People could own. A hunting or slaughter weapon might or might not be effective for personal or home defense. A weapon suitable for home defense can also be used to hunt, and slaughter livestock, but not optimal in armed conflict. A weapon suitable for military use can be used for all of the above. This does not limit one to “military grade” weapons only. Any weapon can be used effectively in combat. It may not be a “first choice” weapon, but it can certainly be used effectively if it is all you have; certainly more effectively than nothing at all.

Even if the Constitution were amended to preclude government access to the militia, this would not affect the Second Amendment. The “militia clause” of the Second Amendment was not the “reason” for the amendment. It simply represented what the Founders saw as the most important of many reasons. Actually, the Second Amendment could be seen as guaranteeing The People the right to form militias, irrespective of government control.

The Second Amendment was founded on this principle, “Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law;”, from the Declaration of Right, commonly known as the English Bill of Rights. Notice there is no mention of the militia, but this guarantees the right of the English people to have “arms for their defence”. Explicit with the “right to have”, is the right to use in your defence, therefore to carry with you if you felt you may be threatened.

Since the right to own and carry firearms was already commonly understood, but the British Governors had elected to deprive them, in some very important cases, of the means to equip their militia, the Founders saw this as the most likely abuse of power regarding firearms, since the right to own and carry arms had been undisputed for 100 years. It did not deny the ownership and use of arms for defense, and in fact states that the right to own and carry arms, even for use as a militia, shall not be infringed. Note another difference to the clause from the Declaration of Right…. “and as allowed by law” was specifically addressed by, “shall not be infringed”. While the King could make laws regarding ownership and use of arms, Congress could not.

What Does It Mean… Today?

Modern language only vaguely resembles the language of a couple of centuries ago. This is “linguistic drift”. As society changes, so does language. Words take on new meanings, or even express different ideas. The Heller decision was the first SCOTUS decision that actually took a look at the basis of the 2nd Amendment, that actually parsed the arguments of the authors, and the delegates to the ratifying conventions. The Court’s conclusion was inescapable. The only reason the opinion didn’t go any further than it did, was because the question before the court was very narrow.

You see, actually, the words in the Constitution define the concepts at that time. That specific concept was agreed to by all parties to the document. This was a contract agreed to on behalf of the representative’s constituents. While the meaning of the words may change over time, that concept remains the same. The concept, described by what the words meant at that time, is the law.

As language changes, so does society, but, the law does not. That is why it is the duty of Congress to write laws pursuant to the Constitution, and as society grows, and the people, in great enough numbers, feel the Constitution no longer addresses the needs of society, to amend the Constitution. Until that happens, regardless of what the words may mean today as opposed to the time when they were written, those concepts, agreed to by all signatories, shape the law.

The Constitution is a legal document; a land survey plat is a legal document. Both are defining legal constructs. A piece of real estate is defined by boundaries. You will never see a parcel of land defined with a stream or river as a boundary. A stream may run congruent with the boundary, but markers are set to establish the boundary. Over time, a stream may change course. If your boundary is on a stream, when it moves, do you suddenly have less land than you paid for? Of course not, your land still extends to the markers set at the time of the survey. This is why the concepts of the Constitution, not modern definitions of the words, define the law.

Understanding the history of the Second Amendment, if it were written in today’s style, it might be written as…

The right the people to own and carry arms, even for use as a military comparable militia, shall not be infringed.




src ---> https://www.quora.com/What-do-the-terms-‘arms’-‘well-regulated’-and-‘militia’-mean-in-the-Second-Amendment


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Re: ATF [Re: Desolus]
    #25878879 - 03/16/19 10:49 PM (8 days, 4 hours ago)

That’s a lot of words to try to explain away what “well regulated” means.


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OfflineDesolus
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Re: ATF [Re: koods]
    #25878892 - 03/16/19 10:56 PM (8 days, 4 hours ago)

it typically takes a great many logical arguments in quick succession to turn over a persons preconceptions.


Edited by Desolus (03/16/19 10:59 PM)


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