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Onlinewildfox
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Difficulty with pinning/fruiting
    #25859288 - 03/07/19 09:21 PM (12 days, 15 hours ago)

Hello! I am mid-way through my first growing experience. I feel silly asking questions and am happy to delete if this doesn't comply with the rules/etiquette of the board.

I know bulk teks are superior to the PF tek but had read that PF was forgiving for beginners so (after following sterilization procedures very closely) I inoculated 10 jars forty days ago. I closely followed the tek which I referenced from a different website, but frequently came here during the process for elucidation on certain steps (I also acquired spores from vendors from here). About 22 days after inoculation, fluffy and beautiful mycelium had completely overtaken the substrate in the jars and I allowed another 7 days for consolidation. Since birthing, I have read that one needs to wait for pinning in vitro for better success, but didn't know that at the time. I also was stoked that by coincidence, I was birthing the cakes on my birthday.

I dunked the cakes for 24 hours, rolled in dry verm, and put into a SGFC that is built to spec. It's elevated off the ground, holes on every side, etc. I read 3-5 days was all it'd take for pinning. 5 days passed. "Be patient!" every similar thread said, including threads where similar souls had waited over 10 days and had no pins. It hurt, but I remained patient. I am now nearing day 14 and the cakes look exactly as they did after rolling them in verm 2 weeks ago.

My question is this: I live in a very dry climate. Ambient RH (from a cheap but highly rated hygrometer) in my place is around 30%. I don't have an analog meter for my SGFC but I noticed that despite my 3x misting/day and 5-6x fanning/day that my perlite seems very dry. Evaporation must be occurring, but potentially... too fast? For reference, I started placing soaked paper towels on the walls of the chamber before work and I return from work with them being completely dry. I'm worried my cakes have dried out too. I briefly took them out (using sterilized gloves and resting them on a sterile surface) on day 11 to add more dampened perlite, but nothing seems to be happening. I have a ceiling fan running on low in the room and an air purifier about 7 feet away from the chamber. With the dryness of my climate, I was thinking it might be best to re-dunk the cakes for another 24hrs and re-soak/strain the perlite in my shower. Good idea or bad idea? Any other thoughts as to what I might be doing wrong? Any help is greatly appreciated and I am sorry for a redundant thread.

On a humorous and related note, the night of day 6 in the SGFC, I had a vivid dream where I checked on them and suddenly, giant amanitas had overtaken the cakes (weird as they are cubes), then on day 7, I had another vivid dream where the cubes had grown so tall I couldn't put the lid on the chamber :grin: NO SUCH LUCK IN THE MORNING.



Edited by wildfox (03/07/19 10:06 PM)


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OfflineEp1429
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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: wildfox]
    #25859322 - 03/07/19 09:41 PM (12 days, 14 hours ago)

Try letting them dry out a touch.  Evaporation helps cause pinning.

I’m not suggesting that you let them shrivel up, but try giving them two mistings a day for a day or two.


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: Ep1429]
    #25859472 - 03/07/19 11:03 PM (12 days, 13 hours ago)

It seems like you have a drying problem. Do you have picture of the jars before you birthed them?

At this point I would suggest getting some coir (check Home depot or Lowes or online on Amazon), taking about 160-180 grams of dry coir, prepping it according to Bod's unmodified tub tek, crumbling your cakes with it, mixing them with hydrated coir and filling a shoebox with it. This will get you back to properly hydrated mix. Let that colonize with a regular white lid, then once colonized cover it with another shoebox.  And by shoebox I mean Sterilite 1642 container available at Walmart, target, home depot and any number of other big stores or at Amazon.
It's so much easier to maintain proper humidity in a shoebox then in a dreaded SGFC.


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: denger]
    #25859620 - 03/08/19 12:01 AM (12 days, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

denger said:
It seems like you have a drying problem. Do you have picture of the jars before you birthed them?

At this point I would suggest getting some coir (check Home depot or Lowes or online on Amazon), taking about 160-180 grams of dry coir, prepping it according to Bod's unmodified tub tek, crumbling your cakes with it, mixing them with hydrated coir and filling a shoebox with it. This will get you back to properly hydrated mix. Let that colonize with a regular white lid, then once colonized cover it with another shoebox.  And by shoebox I mean Sterilite 1642 container available at Walmart, target, home depot and any number of other big stores or at Amazon.
It's so much easier to maintain proper humidity in a shoebox then in a dreaded SGFC.



:whathesaid:


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: nube424]
    #25860089 - 03/08/19 06:14 AM (12 days, 6 hours ago)

Pet stores usually have coir also just an fyi


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: Its_pat]
    #25860091 - 03/08/19 06:16 AM (12 days, 6 hours ago)

Sometimes u have to go to a couple cuz they don't stock up often, but if u check a couple u should find it.


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: nube424]
    #25860148 - 03/08/19 07:49 AM (12 days, 4 hours ago)

Walmart is selling 5 lb blocks of coir in their garden center for the first time this year.  Worked the prices out, and it’s 1/8th the cost of the Eco Earth sold at PetSmart.


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: Ep1429]
    #25860181 - 03/08/19 08:21 AM (12 days, 4 hours ago)

Sweet!


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: denger]
    #25860251 - 03/08/19 09:17 AM (12 days, 3 hours ago)

Thanks for the replies, everyone!
When you say taking that quantity of coir for rehydration do you mean total for the 10 cakes? Not having worked with coir before it's hard to picture that amount based off weight. Thanks again! I'll do some research into that tek.


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: wildfox]
    #25860261 - 03/08/19 09:26 AM (12 days, 3 hours ago)

I was thinking 6 cakes, sorry for the assumption. Double everything for 10 cakes (including shoeboxes - it will make 2 shoeboxes).


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: denger]
    #25860267 - 03/08/19 09:33 AM (12 days, 3 hours ago)

A 5lb block of coir? That's way more than 2 shoeboxes... U can make like 2-3 66qt monotubs with that. 650g of coir u can make about 3-4 shoeboxes. A 5lb brick is triple that amount.


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: nube424]
    #25860298 - 03/08/19 10:03 AM (12 days, 2 hours ago)

I believe it’s easier for someone new to think of a 650 g coir brick as “6-7 qts”.


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: Ep1429]
    #25860309 - 03/08/19 10:14 AM (12 days, 2 hours ago)

Isn't it 7-9 :smile:


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: nube424]
    #25860449 - 03/08/19 11:40 AM (12 days, 57 minutes ago)

I stand corrected. Package says 7-8. I think of a brick as 7 qt. One brick per three qt spawn.


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: Ep1429]
    #25860493 - 03/08/19 11:55 AM (12 days, 42 minutes ago)

I never use whole bricks. I get 10lb ones. So I just chip off whatever I need (160-180gm per shoebox), multiply that by 5 and thats my water. In the pot water goes, boils, gets the coir and gets a blanket wrap and sits overnight. That's it folks.


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: denger]
    #25861509 - 03/08/19 06:57 PM (11 days, 17 hours ago)

I reviewed the tek and found where to get the supplies. In the video linked to the tek, the creator shows how he mixes bulk spawn into the coir. How should I go ahead about crumbling the brf cakes? Should I re-dunk them? Or at least rinse the dry verm layer off? Would it be like: combine ~350g coir and ~1750g boiling water in cleaned out & insulated container, allow to cool, break apart (crumble) brf cakes into this after it cools down, evenly distribute into 2 clean shoeboxes, invert the lids, pray for patience? You mentioned combing the two with more hydrated coir or am I misunderstanding? Is contam risk elevated due to cakes having been sitting in sgfc for two weeks? Thanks again :smile:


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: wildfox]
    #25861646 - 03/08/19 08:10 PM (11 days, 16 hours ago)

The contam risk is already 100%.  That’s the case as soon as the jar is opened and exposed to the air.  Just a matter of time, at that point.

You use a cheese grater to bust up the brf cakes.  You can mix the coir and spawn barehanded, no need to be sterile.


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: wildfox]
    #25861829 - 03/08/19 10:22 PM (11 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

wildfox said:
I reviewed the tek and found where to get the supplies. In the video linked to the tek, the creator shows how he mixes bulk spawn into the coir. How should I go ahead about crumbling the brf cakes? Should I re-dunk them? Or at least rinse the dry verm layer off? Would it be like: combine ~350g coir and ~1750g boiling water in cleaned out & insulated container, allow to cool, break apart (crumble) brf cakes into this after it cools down, evenly distribute into 2 clean shoeboxes, invert the lids, pray for patience? You mentioned combing the two with more hydrated coir or am I misunderstanding? Is contam risk elevated due to cakes having been sitting in sgfc for two weeks? Thanks again :smile:




No additional coir, just 350g plus water. I usually crumble cakes by hand. At this stage you do not have to worry as much about contamination because presumably all your easily contaminatable stuff is already colonized (in cakes). I would not worry about dunking them or removing vermiculite. If it falls off easily when you pick them up then let it fall off, otherwise just include it in the mix. Some people use coarse grate to crumble cakes, I just do it by pulling it apart by hand until I get pieces smaller then a walnut (and mostly bigger then a pea).
If the mycelium is healthy, it will colonize through coir in a few days. If the cakes are already contaminated then you will grow that instead.
I use this tek with every new print I get. Some people advocate for germinating spores on agar, and then isolating from there. But you do not know what you isolate and whether it will fruit or not. By doing cakes/coir process I get to a fruit quickly and I can clone it from there and have a culture that is very likely to fruit well. Worked for me many times. Never had issues with contamination at the coir stage, but I always used healthy fresh cakes, so your mileage may vary.


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: wildfox]
    #25862198 - 03/09/19 02:23 AM (11 days, 10 hours ago)

What variety? PE takes a long ass time and doesnt usually like cakes.

When i did cakes my sgfc's worked "too well" i guess and really dried my shit out, but you cud tell cuz they were blue as fuck. Yours do not look blue. Also i wud not have a fan on in the room. The mechanics of a SGFC negate the need for additional air circulation and i thnk a fan may actually mess things up.


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: Timboslice]
    #25863073 - 03/09/19 02:09 PM (10 days, 22 hours ago)

PE sounded pretty enticing but not great for a newbie so I chose GTs. Wondering if I would have had better luck with B+ but like they say, "a cube is a cube". I'll turn the fan off until I get the coir for the tek mentioned above.

Is it dangerous to re-dunk or just extra risk for some reason?


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: wildfox]
    #25863099 - 03/09/19 02:32 PM (10 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

wildfox said:
PE sounded pretty enticing but not great for a newbie so I chose GTs. Wondering if I would have had better luck with B+ but like they say, "a cube is a cube". I'll turn the fan off until I get the coir for the tek mentioned above.

Is it dangerous to re-dunk or just extra risk for some reason?



You can dunk them again, no problem, but if they are weakened limit your dunking to about 4 hours to limit stress.


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: wildfox]
    #25863100 - 03/09/19 02:33 PM (10 days, 22 hours ago)

Nah we tend not to worry about introducing contamination after birthing or spawning. Contamination is absolutly everywhere in the air around you. Redunk & roll is common practice with cakes. You can do it with pins on them, doesnt matter. Cakes are hardy as fuck.


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: Timboslice]
    #25863151 - 03/09/19 03:20 PM (10 days, 21 hours ago)

Thanks again so much to everyone! Coir will be here on Monday. Quick question regarding the unmodified tub tek: in the "sterilization" of the coir, do you have any good ideas as to insulated containers for that little amount of substrate + hot water? I obviously don't need a 5 gallon bucket or cooler to get that done.
Would etiquette of the board suggest I post pictures in this thread as I continue with your recommendations?


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: wildfox]
    #25863156 - 03/09/19 03:23 PM (10 days, 21 hours ago)

Yes. Post pictures :smile:

And u can't buy a bucket? They're $5 at HD


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: wildfox]
    #25863165 - 03/09/19 03:27 PM (10 days, 21 hours ago)

Ya man post up, and go get a bucket. I have a handful of 'em. They're way useful.


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: Timboslice]
    #25863201 - 03/09/19 03:40 PM (10 days, 20 hours ago)

For small amount buckets are awkward. I just use a pot for small amounts and wrap it in a thick blanket. Pot with a lid obviously. I boil water in it, dump coir right into it on the stove, and turn gas off once coir is all in and lid is on. Then I put it on top of my blanket and envelope the pot with it. Holds heat overnight.


Edited by denger (03/09/19 03:42 PM)


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: denger]
    #25863218 - 03/09/19 03:44 PM (10 days, 20 hours ago)

Also wanted to mention that small amounts obviously have less heat stored, so it's beneficial to do it in the same pot which is already hot from boiling water.


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: denger]
    #25864307 - 03/09/19 11:43 PM (10 days, 12 hours ago)

Alright. I've re-dunked the cakes, I'll be taking them out in a few hours - I figure crumbling the cakes while a bit moist might make it easier. I also re-moistened the perlite for the time being, hopefully the cakes will be happy until their imminent destruction.
Coir arrives on Monday and I'll go get an insulated container that night and cook up the substrate. I'll wake up early on Tuesday and prep the shoeboxes before work. I'll be back with pics then :smile:Any estimate about the timetable here? I read BOD's timetable in the tek, but am unsure what differences w/ BRF cakes in lieu of bulk spawn will bring. The crumbled up cakes will have to colonize the coir (right?), approx. 2 weeks there, 2 weeks for pins, 1 week till harvest or something like that? I'm not in a rush, just curious :smile:


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: wildfox]
    #25864514 - 03/10/19 01:25 AM (10 days, 11 hours ago)

As with anything, it depends. I have a shoebox that just finished colonizing that was made from 6 cakes on 2/28. That's a bit over a week. I see signs of pinning in it already. Another shoebox made with 6 cakes on 2/12 looks like this (Costa):



Admittedly, this is probably one of the worst ones I have seen in a year.

And here for comparison is a shoebox made with a quart of oat spawn with monoculture isolate on 2/18 (TX):



Edited by denger (03/10/19 01:27 AM)


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: denger]
    #25870878 - 03/13/19 01:50 AM (7 days, 11 hours ago)

Holy cow those look great.

I ended up "splurging" for an insulated 5 gallon container and the coir and water are sitting together now (the coir arrived a day late). I just realized I fucked up a bit though, when I went and got the Sterilite 1642 containers, homeboy at the hardware store gave me the shoeboxes with opaque, non-latching lids. There are still gaps when placed upside down for FAE/humidity regulation. I didn't think anything of it at the time because I'm a novice. Now I am worried about side/bottom pinning. I figured I would carry out the procedure tomorrow then head to home depot tomorrow or the next day and find the right lids. How frustrating and shortsighted!


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: wildfox]
    #25872287 - 03/13/19 07:58 PM (6 days, 17 hours ago)

Pictures as promised:


Are those maybe hyphal knots on this cake? They seem small...? Oh well if so...



The cakes I worked so hard to make all shredded up. I used denger's "smaller than a walnut, bigger than a pea" guideline. RIP BRF cakes. Some of the cakes had a bit of color, it seemed indigo and likely just bruising, but I excluded those pieces from the coir anyhow. While shredding up the cakes, the insides were all pristine white and a distinct mushroom smell flooded the surroundings.



Glad I got up an hour early to get this done...


I made it a bit more level after I took this photo. I tamped it all down nicely. The coir seemed like appropriate in dampness, a bit of condensation overtook the walls of the tub after everything was all mixed up. 

How does it look? I still need to go get those transparent lids, but I figure I have another day or two before that's REALLY needed. I could be wrong because I'm super new to this.


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: wildfox]
    #25873267 - 03/14/19 08:51 AM (6 days, 4 hours ago)

Looks good. You do not need transparent lids, you need another pair of shoeboxes. I cover my shoeboxes with inverted shoeboxes to give the fruits room to grow. And yes, you can use regular lids till they are fully colonized.


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: denger]
    #25873719 - 03/14/19 01:42 PM (5 days, 23 hours ago)

How do you create a gap for FAE with an inverted box? And you do that when it's all colonized up?


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: wildfox]
    #25873748 - 03/14/19 01:52 PM (5 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

wildfox said:
How do you create a gap for FAE with an inverted box? And you do that when it's all colonized up?



It's called "Dub Tub". The imperfect rim at the top of each tub creates a gap for FAE. :thumbup:


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: wildfox]
    #25873751 - 03/14/19 01:54 PM (5 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

wildfox said:
How do you create a gap for FAE with an inverted box? And you do that when it's all colonized up?



When the second tub is stacked on top it's always imperfect fit which provides enough FAE for almost all situations except a full canopy. If I get very heavy pinning I slide it a tiny bit length wise to create an 1/8"-1/4" gap. In all other situations I leave it fully closed. I do keep the white lid on during colonization sometimes, but not for FAE reasons but when I do not have enough tubs around. It colonizes fine either way.


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: denger]
    #25873755 - 03/14/19 01:56 PM (5 days, 23 hours ago)

By the way, mushrooms will tell you if you do not have enough FAE. They start developing fuzz at the base and blobs may appear. In time you yourself will get a sense of what's enough. They are pretty forgiving.

By the way, you should see some new mycelial growth in the next day or two if your cakes were ok.


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: denger]
    #25875342 - 03/15/19 10:16 AM (5 days, 3 hours ago)

Things are looking good, I think! Fluffy white myc has started poking out the top layer :laugh: Very appreciative of all the help from everyone and just this community in general, thanks again! I'll post pictures after work! Another QQ: this is obviously very low maintenance Tek but bod mentions occasional misting... Since humidity was my initial issue, do you have tips as to identifying when to do that and how? Bod mentions it's good to have that mycology green thumb, which I obviously don't yet.  Is misting after everything is all colonized up? I still see some condensation on the walls, but it's slowly decreasing in prevalence.


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: wildfox]
    #25875350 - 03/15/19 10:22 AM (5 days, 3 hours ago)

If the coir starts looking dry (like a very light brown color) I'll hit it with a few shots of mist from a spray bottle. Really I try to hold off on misting until the sub is 100% colonized. Shoeboxes I will keep the lid snapped down until it's finished colonizing...holds in the moisture better. :thumbup:


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: wildfox]
    #25877461 - 03/16/19 10:45 AM (4 days, 2 hours ago)

If your cover is on, and your coir was properly hydrated, you do not need any misting until after pinning at least. Once it pins, watch how much condensation is on the walls and if there are beads of water on top of the mycelium. If it all looks dry, open it up and spray upwards and let the drops fall on the tub like fine rain. Just a few squeezes of the bottle will do, do not overdo it.


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: denger]
    #25877731 - 03/16/19 01:11 PM (4 days, 26 minutes ago)

GTS ARE WHAT I CHOSE TO START OUT WITH. I HAD ONE GROW FROM NOTHING TO71 grams in 3 days. Their pretty noob friendly IMHO. ☺️


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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: Anoobus]
    #25880280 - 03/17/19 04:26 PM (2 days, 21 hours ago)

I sure hope they are that friendly Anoobus. It seems like as there is more surface area being colonized that I could possibly be expecting a larger yield than if my SGFC would have worked, no? I'm not worried about the yield or anything, just an observation. They are a bit late but here are the pics as promised. Lids are snapped down for now to retain moisture, will invert after more colonization and go get the tubs for the top later on during colonization. Looking good to everyone?





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Re: Difficulty with pinning/fruiting [Re: wildfox]
    #25880963 - 03/17/19 11:14 PM (2 days, 14 hours ago)

Yes, looking ok. Not sure why the middle of the first tub is not colonizing yet, uneven mixing?
But yes, this def provides better yield then fruiting cakes in sgfc.
If you plan to do agar work, now is the time to get your supplies and tools in order. Once you get fruit you can clone the best ones and go to grain from there. Monoculture from clones does much better then cakes.


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