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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: koods] * 3
    #26261280 -

“Was not advertised as a white supremacist rally”







--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Tantrika] * 1
    #26261293 -

Quote:
when you mentioned "random anarchists" were you implying the other side that was there to legitimately counter-protest?


I don't know people's personal motivations but generally event like this do attract people who genuinely feel about the issues but also those who just want to scrap. On both sides I would have thought
Quote:
or are you presenting the position that anarchsits, selfie hunters, and people with various reasons to not want to see the statue removed could also be white supremacists due to classifications not being mutually exclusive?


Yes, that's what I believe. I am sure some nazis took selfies.
Quote:
If you mean there was a third group who did not align with the values of either rallied side
why would they stand with either side rather than independent of them?


From what I understand the organizers had a permit and took the centre of the square and all others were around the perimeter. Then the rally dispersed and things got messy. I do not know where a third group would position themselves to distinguish their ideological stance - their TV longe maybe?

But to be clear - I am not talking about people whe did not go but rather those who went, for the reasons on my list above. They would stand with the organizers in the square - this was a perfectly legal, permitted event. When things blew up it was rush to the nearest exit I guess

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo] * 1
    #26261306 -

Metoo said:
...I am not talking about people whe did not go but rather those who went, for the reasons on my list above. They would stand with the organizers in the square - this was a perfectly legal, permitted event. When things blew up it was rush to the nearest exit I guess


:thatsinteresting:

it is difficult for me to picture the fine Jewish family you previously mentioned
standing around with a bunch of guys waving swastika flags
and holding up signs about the evils of Jews
and heckling the Charlottesville mayor for being a Jew

but hey, maybe diversity really is the United States' strength

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Tantrika] * 1
    #26261316 -

Quote:
Did either example proceed to rally alongside the white supremacists, giving cause for Trump to argue they were the "fine people" on that side
or were they so horrified by the presence of violent neo-nazis that they did not side with them, meaning such "fine people" were not on the white supremacists' side after all?


From what they both said they supported the statue cause but definitely not the white supremacist ideology. This is exactly what trump said: there were fine people on both sides of the statue debate - it is in the transcript. They were both trapped by the violence and made their exit to safety

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo]
    #26261325 -

Quote:
This is exactly what trump said: there were fine people on both sides of the statue debate - it is in the transcript


Show us


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo] * 1
    #26261327 -

Metoo said:
Quote:
Did either example proceed to rally alongside the white supremacists, giving cause for Trump to argue they were the "fine people" on that side
or were they so horrified by the presence of violent neo-nazis that they did not side with them, meaning such "fine people" were not on the white supremacists' side after all?


From what they both said they supported the statue cause but definitely not the white supremacist ideology. This is exactly what trump said: there were fine people on both sides of the statue debate - it is in the transcript. They were both trapped by the violence and made their exit to safety


So they weren't actually on the side of the white supremacists who rallied to protect the statue and oppose Jewish influence
but they can be used for political convenience as part of a phrase to attempt to soften the anounced goals of the rally
despite the fact that, upon learning of those goals, they stopped supporting that side?

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: koods] * 1
    #26261357 -

Quote:
Show us


"Excuse me, excuse me. (inaudible) themselves (inaudible) and you have some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides. You had people in that group -- excuse me, excuse me -- I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name."

(...)

"And you had people, and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. OK?"

(...)

"There were people in that rally, and I looked the night before. If you look, they were people protesting very quietly the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. I’m sure in that group there were some bad ones. The following day, it looked like they had some rough, bad people -- neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call them. But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest and very legally protest, because you know -- I don’t know if you know, they had a permit"

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo]
    #26261365 -

Quote:
And you had people, and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. OK?"


Wrong. How stupid is this man?

He said this days after the event and he still didn’t know it was a white supremacist rally? Mental midget

Look you lost this debate in a stunningly embarrassing manner. You should probably move on

Edited by koods (10/18/19 03:49 PM)

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: koods]
    #26261391 -

koods said:
Quote:
And you had people, and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. OK?"


Wrong. How stupid is this man?

He said this days after the event and he still didn’t know it was a white supremacist rally? Mental midget

Look you lost this debate in a stunningly embarrassing manner. You should probably move on


Cheers for the advice :-)

But, seriously: how do you know there were no other people in that group other than neo- nazis? Do you know their personal motivation for coming to the rally?

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: koods] * 2
    #26261399 -

Quote:
The following day, it looked like they had some rough, bad people -- neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call them. But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest


Good and innocent people do not protest with people flying confederate and Nazi flags. There is no moral ambiguity here. If you participated in that rally you are a shit human


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo]
    #26261411 -

Metoo said:
...
"There were people in that rally, and I looked the night before. If you look, they were people protesting very quietly the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. I’m sure in that group there were some bad ones. The following day, it looked like they had some rough, bad people -- neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call them. But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest and very legally protest, because you know -- I don’t know if you know, they had a permit"


:idigit:

So Trump states that there were people quietly protesting when the rally was not scheduled to take place
and uses that to extrapolate that they stuck around to participate as members of the group holding the rally
worse so, he implies that the innocent/quiet protestors from the night before the rally also potentially had some bad ones among them

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: koods] * 1
    #26261474 -

koods said:
Quote:
The following day, it looked like they had some rough, bad people -- neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call them. But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest


Good and innocent people do not protest with people flying confederate and Nazi flags. There is no moral ambiguity here. If you participated in that rally you are a shit human


Do you know their personal motivations? What if they came to a statue protest? Serious question

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Tantrika] * 1
    #26261502 -

Tantrika said:
Metoo said:
...
"There were people in that rally, and I looked the night before. If you look, they were people protesting very quietly the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. I’m sure in that group there were some bad ones. The following day, it looked like they had some rough, bad people -- neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call them. But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest and very legally protest, because you know -- I don’t know if you know, they had a permit"


:idigit:

So Trump states that there were people quietly protesting when the rally was not scheduled to take place
and uses that to extrapolate that they stuck around to participate as members of the group holding the rally
worse so, he implies that the innocent/quiet protestors from the night before the rally also potentially had some bad ones among them


No. Trump says there were fine people on both sides of the statue protest, going out of his way to disclaim that this does not apply to neo-nazis and white nationalists (who should be condemned completely). Then the media extrapolate the scope of trump's comments (which were explicitly not meant to cover neo-nazis and white nationalists) to also cover neo-nazis and white nationalists

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: qman]
    #26261525 -

qman said:
ballsalsa said:
According to xul white nationalists are just nice guys that don't want to see brown or black skinned folk around anymore.  Apparently that has nothing to do with white supremacy.


Or they're looking out for the interests of white people just like every other race and ethnic organization does for their own, correct?


Lol, as if non-white people can't also be called out for racism.  Here you go: La Raza is a supremacist group too.  Im certain thete are plenty of others.g
Does that make you feel better?

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo]
    #26261544 -

Metoo said:
Tantrika said:
Metoo said:
...
"There were people in that rally, and I looked the night before. If you look, they were people protesting very quietly the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. I’m sure in that group there were some bad ones. The following day, it looked like they had some rough, bad people -- neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call them. But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest and very legally protest, because you know -- I don’t know if you know, they had a permit"


:idigit:

So Trump states that there were people quietly protesting when the rally was not scheduled to take place
and uses that to extrapolate that they stuck around to participate as members of the group holding the rally
worse so, he implies that the innocent/quiet protestors from the night before the rally also potentially had some bad ones among them


No. Trump says there were fine people on both sides of the statue protest, going out of his way to disclaim that this does not apply to neo-nazis and white nationalists (who should be condemned completely). Then the media extrapolate the scope of trump's comments (which were explicitly not meant to cover neo-nazis and white nationalists) to also cover neo-nazis and white nationalists


No, trumps says there were people quietly protesting when the rally was not scheduled to take place:
Quote:
...I looked the night before. If you look, they were people protesting very quietly the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. I’m sure in that group there were some bad ones.


people who were there the night before were not necessarily part of the rally, the rally was held on the 12th
to my comprehension, the rally organizers who arranged to protest in that space on the 12th were busy with other activities on the night of the 11th

he also acknowledges that the group that held the rally on the day of the rally that people refer to were there for hateful reasons:
Quote:
The following day, it looked like they had some rough, bad people -- neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call them.


he then combines those two seperate pieces of information to extrapolate that the people who supported keeping the statue also stuck around and supported the white supremacy rally the next day:
Quote:
But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest


Quote:
and very legally protest, because you know -- I don’t know if you know, they had a permit


though he speaks of two seperate groups taking part in seperate activities,
one group of fine people on the night of the 11th without a permit and one of hateful people on the day of the 12th with a permit,
he attempts to combine those groups together, either through miscomprehension or misrepresentation on his part

this is just looking at Trump's words on the affair that you provided tho,
not sure why you bring media into it?

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Tantrika]
    #26261561 -

Quote:
So they weren't actually on the side of the white supremacists who rallied to protect the statue and oppose Jewish influence
but they can be used for political convenience as part of a phrase to attempt to soften the anounced goals of the rally
despite the fact that, upon learning of those goals, they stopped supporting that side?


From what I heard they turned up in support of keeping the statues, at a permitted rally. They did not know beforehand who else was was going to attend and what other causes these other attendees support. When they realised the place was full of nasty types - on both sides - they made strategic exit.

Not sure what you mean by softening the announced goals of the rally. Trump did not use them to sneakily extend his fine people praise to neo -nazis and white nationalists - he specifically singled out neo-nazis and white nationalists for condemnation

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo]
    #26261574 -

Can’t you hear the dog whistle?


--------------------
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Judge Aaron Satie

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo]
    #26261576 -

Metoo said:
Quote:
So they weren't actually on the side of the white supremacists who rallied to protect the statue and oppose Jewish influence
but they can be used for political convenience as part of a phrase to attempt to soften the anounced goals of the rally
despite the fact that, upon learning of those goals, they stopped supporting that side?


From what I heard they turned up in support of keeping the statues, at a permitted rally. They did not know beforehand who else was was going to attend and what other causes these other attendees support. ...


So they attended a rally promoted as "Unite The Right" under the basis of belief that it only pertained to a statue?
My sympathies go out to them for being tricked by neo-nazis

Metoo said:
...When they realised the place was full of nasty types - on both sides - they made strategic exit.
...


There were swastika flags being flown and anti-Jewish chants on both sides?
Or is your definition of "nasty types" referring to some other character aspect in order to cover both sides?

Metoo said:
...
Not sure what you mean by softening the announced goals of the rally. Trump did not use them to sneakily extend his fine people praise to neo -nazis and white nationalists - he specifically singled out neo-nazis and white nationalists for condemnation


Trump specifically attempted to put people who were not part of the group of white supremacists, into a group with white supremacists
in order to argue that the broader white supremacy rally was being held by a group that included "fine people"
but the group of fine people were apparently not grouped with the group of white supremacists with the rally permit -- you have stated that once they found out the true aim of the permitted rally they absconded their position

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: vault123] * 1
    #26261583 -

It does not matter what he does or does not say, because we already know he’s “worse than a racist”. So everything he says will be filtered through that presupposition and used to confirm our already held beliefs. This way we do not rely on evidence to confirm our suspicions because we will see them no matter what.


--------------------
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Judge Aaron Satie

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo]
    #26261595 -

@Tantrika
Too long to quote.

Here is the link to the full transcript https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-charlottesville-transcript-20170815-story.html

I am not sure what your point is. No one is claiming that the composition of the crowd was exactly the same both days. Trump simply states that there were fine people on both sides of the charlottesville affair and clarifies multiple times that this does not apply to neo-nazis or white nationalists who should be condemned completely. This is not a PhD report analyzing the events from all angles and in chronological order but rather a test exchange with hostile reporters where trump, in real time, responds to pointed questions about a tragic event which had just unfolded.

The media are completely central because, for over two years they shamelessly presented that trump called neo-nazis "fine people" despite the transcript being vajra clear that this comment did not apply to neo-nazis and white supremacists (who should be condemned completely)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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