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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26488959 -

Those on the outside would chip in

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo] * 4
    #26488983 -

Trail of tears all the libertarians to the coast and send em on an all expenses paid boat ride to the last bastion of libertarianism, Somalia, where they can finally be free from the tyranny of taxation

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo]
    #26489025 -

qman said:
feldman114 said:
Actually, Obama got waaaay more people insured.
https://www.kff.org/report-section/the-uninsured-and-the-aca-a-primer-key-facts-about-health-insurance-and-the-uninsured-amidst-changes-to-the-affordable-care-act-how-many-people-are-uninsured/





Yeah, insured in name only. Why are your standards so low?  I don't think having a $5000 deductible with a 60/40 hospital coverage is really having health care for the vast majority of US citizens.



Still, the number of uninsured people clearly went down. I have an 1800 deductible on an ACA plan btw, not sure how much hospital coverage is...

Metoo said:
Those on the outside would chip in



Hmm you mean everyone would chip in a bit of what they earn for a service they all want? Like a tax?

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo]
    #26489127 -

Metoo said:
What is the "fair" tax on a 100k earning? Unless you are prepared to say what is "fair" you are just practicing verbal masturbation with a virtuous term



I already told you what is fair.  Billionaires not paying less than everyone else, as is the case with Social Security and as is recently the case with their effective tax rate.

Under Bernie's 2016 Medicare for All the bottom 95% would pay even less for healthcare than they do today.  His 2020 plan is even more progressive.

Metoo said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That's like saying 2 + 2 = 5.  If you were corrected, you might say, well it's closer to five than it is to two, but that's irrelevant because it's NOT equal to 5.



Sorry, you lost me with your advanced math. What I said is that Bernie's plan is for borders more open than what we have now hence he wants to "open" the boders (verb)



No, what you said is "Bernie wants to open the borders".  He doesn't.  Now you know.

Metoo said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So people who migrate to Russia do so not because they want to?



Yes - most migrants declare they want to settle in the US, Europe or Australia. Only 1% want to go to Russia - my guess they are from Caucasus or the various -stan countries who are ethnic Russians and would not make it to Europe
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/11/these-are-the-countries-migrants-want-to-move-to/



I never said Russia was the most desired country in the world.  I said the people who migrated there wanted to go there.  Your claim was "Russia does not have this problem because, guess what, no one wants to emigrate there" which is clearly false.  LOTS of people emigrate to Russia, even if we make believe it wasn't by choice.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26489147 -

Thanks for your explanations, your views are a lot more clear to me now. Just three more question, if you will:

What do you think is a fair tax on a 100k income?

Do you believe that Bernie's policies, if implemented, woild make the borders more open?

Why do you think migrants who end up settling in Russia initially wanted to go there and were not rejected by their preferred destination? Source or make belief?

Edited by Metoo (02/16/20 10:13 PM)

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo] * 1
    #26489150 -

hey metoo...did you star in The Planet of the Apes?


--------------------

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: starfire_xes]
    #26489153 -

starfire_xes said:
hey metoo...did you star in The Planet of the Apes?



Damn- what gave it away?

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo]
    #26489188 -

Metoo said:
1.  What do you think is a fair tax on a 100k income?



Again, a fair tax would be an effective tax rate less than what billionaires are paying.  It actually doesn't really matter what the number is (up to a certain point like 60%), because the higher the tax rate, the more benefits people get in return.

Imagine how much easier our lives would be if we got free healthcare, free education, free public transportation, etc. for only slightly more taxes.  This would benefit all but the wealthiest among us (as I said, Bernie's healthcare plan is cheaper for the bottom 95%).

If we look at the median wealth of some countries with a higher tax rate than the US, like Australia, Switzerland, and Japan, we see that it is higher than the US, meaning MORE disposable income.

Metoo said:
2.  Do you believe that Bernie's policies, if implemented, woild make the borders more open?



Not that I'm aware.  Bernie wants more humane and compassionate treatment for refugees and asylum seekers that do come to the US.

Metoo said:
3.  Based on what we know what % of migrants want to settle in Russia?



I don't know.  It might be what you said.  But that doesn't mean Russia doesn't have a huge immigrant population.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26489373 -

Anything more than 10% is theft, and as of now I am getting ass raped. :lol:

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Ran-D] * 2
    #26489820 -

Bernie proposed paying for Medicare for All by increasing the tax rate on everyone by 2.2%.

Take a look at what private health insurance currently costs and multiply your current salary by 2.2%.

Does a 2.2% tax increase cost less than private health insurance?  If so, Bernie's plan saves you money, even with higher taxes!

If not, congratulations, you're in the top 5% income bracket and I don't feel sorry for you because you're paying exactly the same percentage as everyone else.



Bernie is proposing a better plan for 2020, which is ever more affordable for low income earners.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26489894 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Bernie proposed paying for Medicare for All by increasing the tax rate on everyone by 2.2%.




They all start low but anything run by the government blows up. Where I live a large public infrastructure project was sold as a 1.5b improvement to get the votes required to commit. We are now 30% through and the current budget is 4.4b. It happens every time. Would President Bernie resign if his pet MediCare project ended up costing 6%?

Btw - I think healthcare is one of the areas where Trump failed miserably. Hopefully in the second term he will put together a sensible proposal.

Edited by Metoo (02/17/20 12:16 PM)

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo] * 4
    #26489911 -

No one in the world has ever even remotely managed to make a more expensive healthcare system than we have,

I don't think if we rid ourselves of the insurance industry - and numerous elements that contribute to a near 4 trillion$ a year healthcare industry, that we could possibly come up with a system that's worse than the one we have now.

Whatever that system is - it'll cost people less in taxes than it costs them now in perceived value, premiums and insurance bills.

What I'm curious is - is when it kicks in, will businesses try and play it off like nothing happened and just write off millions in health care expenses? Or will they actually pay people the difference?


--------------------
¿Check out some art m8?


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo] * 1
    #26489938 -

:whathesaid:

If you're paying ANY attention at all, you'd see that American private health care is FAR more expensive than anything run by other Governments.  Don't buy the private insurance propaganda.  I hope you're smarter than that.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: twighead] * 1
    #26489996 -

Business will certainly try to sweep up the lion's share of the value of reduced overhead.  Unionized workers will be able to negotiate for some of it.  Entry level workers at small businesses will get shafted hardest

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26490021 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
:whathesaid:

If you're paying ANY attention at all, you'd see that American private health care is FAR more expensive than anything run by other Governments.  Don't buy the private insurance propaganda.  I hope you're smarter than that.



We are in a repetitive pattern of you ignoring the points I am making and then topping off your misdirected responses with thinly veiled insults. Do I take it that you are ok with Bernie's 2.2% becoming 6% with no penalty imposed on his credibility because you think it does not matter? In case it has not registered with you all I said was that politicians lie about the cost to get their pet projects going, not that the current US system is cheaper/better than the government run alternatives.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26490028 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
:whathesaid:

If you're paying ANY attention at all, you'd see that American private health care is FAR more expensive than anything run by other Governments.  Don't buy the private insurance propaganda.  I hope you're smarter than that.



The whole point for private insurance was to manage health care costs, but oddly that comes into direct conflict with their profitability. When will the advocates for the current system admit this conflict of interest?

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo] * 1
    #26490126 -

Metoo said:
We are in a repetitive pattern of you ignoring the points I am making and then topping off your misdirected responses with thinly veiled insults.  Do I take it that you are ok with Bernie's 2.2% becoming 6% with no penalty imposed on his credibility because you think it does not matter?



Of course I wouldn't be ok with healthcare costs tripling.  But why would healthcare costs triple when costs are so much less in every other country that doesn't use for profit health insurance?  We have countless real world examples showing how much cheaper it will be and you're just repeating the scare propaganda that for profit insurance companies are selling you.

Metoo said:
In case it has not registered with you all I said was that politicians lie about the cost to get their pet projects going, not that the current US system is cheaper/better than the government run alternatives.



Bernie makes all of his calculations public.  We've had countless discussions here about his 2016 numbers proving them to be accurate.  And you yourself said "Sanders cannot lie. He is ideologically pure"


Now I'll ask you the kind of question you've asked me (except I'll use real world data rather than fantasy):  How would you feel if private insurance costs keep increasing like we KNOW they have been?



Source


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26490203 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Bernie makes all of his calculations public.  We've had countless discussions here about his 2016 numbers proving them to be accurate.  And you yourself said "Sanders cannot lie. He is ideologically pure"

Now I'll ask you the kind of question you've asked me (except I'll use real world data rather than fantasy):  How would you feel if private insurance costs keep increasing like we KNOW they have been?



Source



It would not affect me personally but I think the US healthcare system sucks and needs an overhaul so more like being sorry for the dudes who end up paying the exuberant medical bills. I see from your graph that the state-run system costs are also climbing and I would feel the same if the trend continued - albeit to a lesser extent because the rate of increase is slower.

See - it is possible to answer a question directly, without dodging or implying that whoever asked it is somehow mentally deficient. Of course your scenario is a "fantasy" - we do not know that the costs will rise. You are just assuming they might, based on the past experience (much like I assume that Bernie's 2.2% estimate would be way off - we KNOW they always are).

His 2016 numbers are also a fantasy - none of his ideas got put into practice so we have no idea what the real world data would have been. I accept that he believes in this fantasy and so is truthful in that sense.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Metoo] * 1
    #26490219 -

So what do you think is the solution? Obviously his includes tackling other for-profit entities entangled in the health care industry.

Hell even Trump talks about this, but in practice, he's never lifted a finger against any for-profit entity - unless it's one that threatens coal, oil or some other archaic bullshit.

All I hear from half of American's is "It can't be done" and "I have no ideas what to do about it"

How about we fucking try and find out? :lol:


--------------------
¿Check out some art m8?


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: twighead]
    #26490252 -

I do not know enough to offer a comprehensive solution but it has to originate outside the current polarised political system. I would probably put together a group of experts (nominated by both parties) and get them to come up with a detailed recommendation. Anything generated by either party would get instantly shot down by the other so this is a complete waste of time.

One other scenario would be if Bernie got nominated and then monstered by Trump in November - Trump could then claim a mandate to do things entirely his way. This is not a remote possibility - Bernie is the Dems frontrunner so lets keep our fingers crossed...

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