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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: dinosaurs]
    #29261794 -

That doesn't mean you have socialism as economic system though . You just have some services provided  by the govt . .


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #29261801 -

Enlil said:
dinosaurs said:
if we're not going to utilize socialism everyone might as well tool up and live like GTA V players.  the entire fucking point of society is to band together to do things we couldnt do otherwise.

I dunno about you but if it was up to me on my own, my street wouldn't be paved to the corner, let alone beyond.  I wouldn't be able to afford a military, or a system with trucks and people hired to pick up my trash and take it to a designated place.  or a 24/7 system where I can make a call if my house catches on fire, and people will show up and expend great effort to save my shit.




That's not socialism, though.  The military, and roads, and government services aren't the means of production of goods.



Socialism is the public ownership of stuff instead of privately owned, I would consider some of that stuff socialism, they even call public healthcare in civilized countries socialized healthcare


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For most of the normies out there, an operating system is just a bootloader for Google Chrome.

And I don't know what the mantis is praying for
But he's probably just thanking the Lord
That he don't live in a home
And he don't got a phone
And he don't sit around all angry and bored
(He's just a bug)

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: gopher]
    #29261802 -

"stuff"?

I'm not going to go too far down this (publicly owned and maintained) road because we've done this too many times over the years.  There is a huge difference, however, between a public service such as roads, and even healthcare should a society choose to have a public healthcare system, and public ownership of a soap factory.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #29261813 -

like soylent soap :naughty:

the peoples soap!! literally.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Psilynut2] * 1
    #29261816 -

Psilynut2 said:
That doesn't mean you have socialism as economic system though . You just have some services provided  by the govt . .




I agree, but true socialism has never been seriously proposed in the USA.  most people don't even know what it is.  they've heard it most as another over-used FUD keyword used by the right whenever there's a chance of govt providing a service that helps anyone but them.

as we've learned, maga isn't interested or perhaps even capable of dealing in nuance so they present everything in stark terms.  for them socialism is a rhetorical cudgel they use to shut down anyone trying to use the govt to help the little guy.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #29261817 -

So if our tax dollars fund the research that leads to Pfizer’s latest vaccine/drug, and then Pfizer sells that product at exorbitant rates to the public and pays its CEOs huge salaries and bonuses, how does that fit in?

It’s like pretending to be socialism (public is footing the bill) but then turns out to be exploitative (public then pays for the goods and makes no profit).

Some call it corporate socialism. Some call it a kleptocracy. It’s certainly not a “free market” with “no government interference” the way capitalists would like to frame it.


And then how do unions fit in? I’ve met with a union organizer, he explained it like this: a company generates a certain amount of revenue; it’s like a pie, and who gets to decide how that pie is divied up? Should a couple head honchos get to decide because they know what is best? Or should there be a shared decision making process that ensures that workers get fairly rewarded for their efforts, and protected in case they are harmed, disabled, etc.

Not to mention, are the present owners of the companies who make the goods even the ones who founded the company or invented the goods or novel means of production? No, it’s a bunch of parasitic private equity groups swooping in and raping a company before escaping, letting the company go bankrupt with just its bare bones baking in the sun.


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All communication
is pattern
and rhythm

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Blue Cthulhu] * 1
    #29261818 -

Blue Cthulhu said:
So if our tax dollars fund the research that leads to Pfizer’s latest vaccine/drug, and then Pfizer sells that product at exorbitant rates to the public and pays its CEOs huge salaries and bonuses, how does that fit in?

It’s like pretending to be socialism (public is footing the bill) but then turns out to be exploitative (public then pays for the goods and makes no profit).

Some call it corporate socialism. Some call it a kleptocracy. It’s certainly not a “free market” with “no government interference” the way capitalists would like to frame it.





I call that socializing the risk and privatizing the profit. (even though pfizer is public).

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
    #29261819 -

Blue Cthulhu said:
So if our tax dollars fund the research that leads to Pfizer’s latest vaccine/drug, and then Pfizer sells that product at exorbitant rates to the public and pays its CEOs huge salaries and bonuses, how does that fit in?



That's capitalism.  Government funding research isn't socialism.
Quote:
And then how do unions fit in? I’ve met with a union organizer, he explained it like this: a company generates a certain amount of revenue; it’s like a pie, and who gets to decide how that pie is divied up? Should a couple head honchos get to decide because they know what is best? Or should there be a shared decision making process that ensures that workers get fairly rewarded for their efforts, and protected in case they are harmed, disabled, etc.

Not to mention, are the present owners of the companies who make the goods even the ones who founded the company or invented the goods or novel means of production? No, it’s a bunch of parasitic private equity groups swooping in and raping a company before escaping, letting the company go bankrupt with just its bare bones baking in the sun.



Unions aren't government run, so there really isn't a tie-in at all.  Unions might be considered a step toward communism (not socialism) if the scale is large enough, but it's such a tiny step that it doesn't change the fabric of the society, really.

The real key here is whether or not competition is driving innovation.  Roads aren't subject to competition in the same way that computer chips are.  Sure, one road might be better than another, but multiple roads can't practically exist in the same place.  Government ownership and maintenance of roads is the only practical solution, and it also serves to create an infrastructure so that private innovation can occur.

Yeah, government funds a lot of innovation in the U.S.  That's undisputed.  It doesn't convert us to a socialist nation, though.  If government funded healthcare, it wouldn't make the nation socialist either.  People on both sides of the issue love to claim socialism either to criticize or praise the system. 



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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #29261838 -

I think you’re seeing it way too black and white. Socialism isn’t an all or nothing affair. And neither is the “free” market.

If the free market were truly so great at driving innovation and progress, then it would be able to fund its own research and development, because the payoff would be worth the investment.

Instead, the American public is paying for the research and development - which should give us a huge stake in the company (if not outright ownership).


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All communication
is pattern
and rhythm

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
    #29261843 -

Canada has the 407 highway which isn't owned by the government tho how does that tie in?

And as to competition capitalism stifles competition, what really drives innovation in private companies is tax breaks, you need to tax the company more than we do and offer tax breaks for them to put their money into r and d instead of shareholders pockets

And I'm not arguing we have socialism, just that some aspects are socialist so yes agree there's been socialist ideas like roads since the Roman times


--------------------
For most of the normies out there, an operating system is just a bootloader for Google Chrome.

And I don't know what the mantis is praying for
But he's probably just thanking the Lord
That he don't live in a home
And he don't got a phone
And he don't sit around all angry and bored
(He's just a bug)

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
    #29261844 -

Never understood the leap that publicly owned instantly equated to better service, pricing, and access.

Moreover, here is an dirty little secret...all of the flaws that we may have....we lead the world in pharmaceutical innovation, development, and implementation ...no one comes close.


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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #29261848 -

Publically owned can be run like a service Instead of a company, partly funded by tax dollars so it can offer lower prices, then companies need to lower their prices to compete with the public owned service

Canada needs a public owned phone service, we are trapped with only three choices that buy up any smaller people who try to start in the field

Our postal service Canada Post, should be the one to get into the phone industry and offer wifi too, they are looking to expand service and this would be perfect, I'd switch to Canada Post sim card in a heart beat, even if it was the same price as my current provider


--------------------
For most of the normies out there, an operating system is just a bootloader for Google Chrome.

And I don't know what the mantis is praying for
But he's probably just thanking the Lord
That he don't live in a home
And he don't got a phone
And he don't sit around all angry and bored
(He's just a bug)

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: gopher]
    #29261883 -

Wait, wait, wait, wait... So, America would have to start producing things again before it could become a communist country?


...




.....






GOD DAMMIT!!!

:kummeli:


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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #29261884 -

Because communist countries have such a great track record of producing things
:facepalm:


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: SirTripAlot] * 2
    #29261885 -

SirTripAlot said:
Never understood the leap that publicly owned instantly equated to better service, pricing, and access.



I don't think anyone was making that argument.  but a service that is running on a set budget instead of chasing better and better quarterly results is in a much better position to succeed than a public one.  US postal service pre-trump being a prime example.  I personally think that if, at the societal level we deem something "necessary," we should be utilizing our power by numbers to delivery those products and services as reliably and inexpensively as possible. 

SirTripAlot said:
Moreover, here is an dirty little secret...all of the flaws that we may have....we lead the world in pharmaceutical innovation, development, and implementation ...no one comes close.



plenty of other regions compete with the USA in pharma work, and what success we do have comes in no small way from the work done by (often immigrant) postgrad students in academia.

the other thing driving our work in medicine is our egregiously for-profit healthcare system that highly incentivizes treating symptoms instead of preventing or curing illness.  personally I don't want that kind of innovation if it comes at the cost of sick and dying Americans being preyed on by a ruthlessly capitalistic healthcare system.

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #29261893 -

SirTripAlot said:
Never understood the leap that publicly owned instantly equated to better service, pricing, and access.

Moreover, here is an dirty little secret...all of the flaws that we may have....we lead the world in pharmaceutical innovation, development, and implementation ...no one comes close.



I’m not personally advocating for pure socialism. More of a hybrid approach. There never was a “free” market. It’s just a question of who makes the rules, and who do the rules favor.

As far as America leading the world… according to official measures, America is pretty low on the list for “quality of life” compared to other developed nations. https://data.worldhappiness.report/table

What good is it to be so advanced in pharmaceutical innovation, if your people are miserable? If we have to pay up the wazoo for healthcare when other nations get to negotiate drug prices for the very same drugs that we developed?


--------------------
All communication
is pattern
and rhythm

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
    #29261898 -

What does this "hybrid solution" look like?  How is it different from now?


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #29261909 -

I think people are searching for a term that describes the distinction between 'government that serves the needs of common/working people' vs 'government that entrenches wealth and power at the top' ... if it's not socialism then what is it?

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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Lynnch]
    #29261912 -

Socialism doesn't describe either of those.  Neither does capitalism.  Capitalism isn't even a system of government, so I'm not sure why that would ever apply.

I don't know of any singular term to describe the former, but oligarchy describes the latter.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: TRUMP 2020 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #29261965 -

nuance is the bane of the simple minded.  we should strive to build a hybrid system that borrows the best ideas from capitalism, communism, socialism, and any other systems of governance or economic framework that exist. 


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